Vegan?
Replies
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Hi there, my kids (now 19 & 16) have been vegetarian since birth, theyve never eaten meat or fish. My husband has been vegan for years and I eat meat.
Having veggie kids is pretty easy, you just need to put a little more effort in. When they went through the inevitable hating vegetable stage I just pureed veg to make pasta sauce, its amazing what you can hide with a blender!
Vegan is just one step on but again requires alot of thought and planning, I cook alot of curry, pasta, mexican, thai and roast dinners! I work full time so there are times when we just have junk, my husband loves pizza with no cheese - apparently its quite common at dominos.
id suggest investing in a couple of good, easy cook books, I love hugh fearnly wittenstalls veg every day, riverford farms veg cookbook and delia smith. I also google alot for inspiration (bbc good food is great). What really got me started was getting a veg box delivered from a farm, you have no idea whats being delivered so have no choice but to find something good to cook.
good luck, its not an easy option but also is nowhere near as hard as you think.
cherry x
Yeah it's not really that hard, vegan eating requires the same amount of effort and planning as an omnivore diet. Most kids I know eat the SAD (Standard American diet) and are malnutritioned and obese and not healthy at all.0 -
ok, one more thing from me, here is a GREAT link to some super vegan recipes: http://ohsheglows.com/categories/recipes-2/food-entrees/ enjoy!
Even if some of you out there are not vegan i highly recommend looking through vegan cookbooks for ideas - you can really find amazing ideas for adding more veggies into your diet. that Tex-mex spaghetti-squash w/ black bean guacamole on the site i linked is MAGIC.0 -
its great to hear your looking at a plant based diet, its surprising easy and affordable, iv been vegan 6 year and never looked back! if your struggling with the switch from meat to no meat there are plenty of vegan 'meats' available in health food shops and you can pretty much get an alternative for everything! and there's nothing wrong with children eating a vegan diet, i know plenty! don't understand where people get these ideas!?0
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Yes, I was making that point. Humans are animals. Human byproducts are animal byproducts so by definition a baby that is breastfeeding is not vegan. This refers back to my point that animal based proteins have a better amino acid profile for muscle synthesis and contain more of the essential amino acids that a growing baby needs. Human breast milk falls into this category.
Actually, having a diet with a variety of grains, legumes, and vegetables can provide all of the essential amino acids our bodies require.
The amount of grains, legumes, and vegetables that would be required to equal the essential amino acid intake required for a baby would be absurd, especially when the concentration of those amino acids is very high in breast milk for the reason that a growing baby SHOULD be drinking breast milk. Also, a baby can only consume so much volume in their stomach in a given day. I'm not debating that it's possible to get the required amino acids from non animal sources for an adult because if you eat enough you can get there but it's a completely different story for a baby.
Yeah, I'm definitely pro-breastfeeding (if possible) for all babies. I know plenty of people who went straight from being breastfed to 100% plant-based diets and they turned out just fine
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its great to hear your looking at a plant based diet, its surprising easy and affordable, iv been vegan 6 year and never looked back! if your struggling with the switch from meat to no meat there are plenty of vegan 'meats' available in health food shops and you can pretty much get an alternative for everything! and there's nothing wrong with children eating a vegan diet, i know plenty! don't understand where people get these ideas!?
Science...0 -
Congratulations on your decision. You may look back someday at this decision as being one of the best you have ever made.
First piece of advice: Don't let the naysayers get you down. There will be TONS of nutritionally ignorant people who will try to change your mind, ESPECIALLY ON THIS SITE. There are vegan groups on this site that are great for you.
Second piece of advice: Educate yourself. Gary Yourofsky's speech is truly one of the greatest speeches ever, but it's only the beginning. There are tons of things you need to learn to do well nutritionally. Please check out the following doctors/nutritionists:
T.Colin Campbell
Alan Goldhamer
John McDougall
Joel Fuhrman
Doug Lisle
Neal Barnard
Caldwell Esselstyn
Jeff Novick
Michael Klaper
Third piece of advice: Avoid the pitfalls of being vegan! Remember that vegan does not always mean healthy. The key to thriving on a vegan diet is to seek out the high quality whole plant foods, like local fruits and vegetables. You will have to learn new recipes to make it interesting. Try a new recipe every week, and keep your favorites on your regular rotation.
Enjoy! You just made a fantastic decision!0 -
I love Freelee the banana girl! Her videos are great and she hits the nail on the head with a lot of topics. If I were you I'd try going vegan the conventional way before switching to raw or 80/20 or anything like that. Vegan is tough as it is. I was vegan for 3 years. It didn't work for me, but that doesn't mean it won't work for you. Obviously it's working for Freelee! Just have to find what works for you! And don't listen to the haters- hater gonna hate! I say give it a try and find out for yourself
LUCK!
I have no opinion either way on veganism but I checked out Freelee's website... reading the FAQs was extremely painful.0 -
Congratulations on your decision. You may look back someday at this decision as being one of the best you have ever made.
First piece of advice: Don't let the naysayers get you down. There will be TONS of nutritionally ignorant people who will try to change your mind, ESPECIALLY ON THIS SITE. There are vegan groups on this site that are great for you.
Second piece of advice: Educate yourself. Gary Yourofsky's speech is truly one of the greatest speeches ever, but it's only the beginning. There are tons of things you need to learn to do well nutritionally. Please check out the following doctors/nutritionists:
T.Colin Campbell
Alan Goldhamer
John McDougall
Joel Fuhrman
Doug Lisle
Neal Barnard
Caldwell Esselstyn
Jeff Novick
Michael Klaper
Third piece of advice: Avoid the pitfalls of being vegan! Remember that vegan does not always mean healthy. The key to thriving on a vegan diet is to seek out the high quality whole plant foods, like local fruits and vegetables. You will have to learn new recipes to make it interesting. Try a new recipe every week, and keep your favorites on your regular rotation.
Enjoy! You just made a fantastic decision!
I think we're in agreement on one point...0 -
its great to hear your looking at a plant based diet, its surprising easy and affordable, iv been vegan 6 year and never looked back! if your struggling with the switch from meat to no meat there are plenty of vegan 'meats' available in health food shops and you can pretty much get an alternative for everything! and there's nothing wrong with children eating a vegan diet, i know plenty! don't understand where people get these ideas!?
Science...
you've been trolling this thread like crazy, please link to this scientific and credible set of studies you are refering to. RaeLB posted the ADA link, where is *your* backup for your naysaying exactly?0 -
its great to hear your looking at a plant based diet, its surprising easy and affordable, iv been vegan 6 year and never looked back! if your struggling with the switch from meat to no meat there are plenty of vegan 'meats' available in health food shops and you can pretty much get an alternative for everything! and there's nothing wrong with children eating a vegan diet, i know plenty! don't understand where people get these ideas!?
Science...
Read some of the links I posted.0 -
I always base my life changing decisions on youtube videos and netflix documentaries. It is true that one is born every minute........
Me too! Youtube is the worlds leader in nutritional advice.0 -
I didn´t like meat as a child as well... Now I like it on ocassion. So many kids don´t like meat when they are young.
I don´t belive in the vegan lifestyle so I cannot recomment anything to you. For me it´s an unnatural diet for human kind. However being vegan became pretty "in" thru the last years. And I think what is true is that if you choose out of two extremes:
- eating meat/animal products everyday (like some people in western societies do)
- eating no meat/animal products at all
the second option might be rather healthy. But in general 1 or 2 times meat a week is nothing bad for you... Of course you need to make sure where you get your meat from. The industrial production is no good meat source....
And a vegan diet doesn´t give you all the B-vitamins you need. You will have to take nutrition pills for that. Eating more raw fruit and veggies makes sense. but all extremes are usually not good.
Just my 5 cents0 -
My baby has been vegan since conception and is 19 months now....he is so far perfect in every way health wise. I've been vegan for almost 7 years.
That said, I am very careful with how we eat, AND he is still breastfed, so he is getting a lot of nutrients from me. Really he doesn't eat a lot of food anyways.
I will have to say that most people get enough protein, that it's rarely an issue, you just need to make sure your diet is varied, we eat a lot of beans, and leafy greens.
And I've based my life changing decisions off of research. Keep researching.
How can your baby be vegan if you're breastfeeding him? Kind of a contradiction. Sounds to me like he's getting most of his diet from animal based sources...namely you.
Ha! I was wondering the same thing... :huh:
Just a point, if momma isn't drinking cow's milk then baby is not getting any lactose. So if momma is vegan, essentially baby is vegan too. Unless you are making the point that momma is an animal so breastmilk is an animal byproduct...?
And before anyone blasts this post.... I have a background in nutrition, child development, and I am a former human milk tech for a local hospital. I did my homework on this one
Yes, making the point that momma is an animal. Not here to bash, that's just what immediately crossed my mind when she mentioned breastfeeding. I guess I'd just never given it any thought before... It certainly does seem contradictory in a way.0 -
I always wonder what would have happened if humans never started eating meat, would we still be small brained primate-like creatures0
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On the breastfeeding point.. No animals are exploited in order for the baby to drink milk from it's own mother, it's natural for a species to drink the milk of it's parent while in infancy. It isn't natural to artificially impregnate other species and steal the milk intended for their baby
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To all the bros in here: I get it, you're responding to the rampant pseudoscience in the "health vegan" movement - those people piss me off too! Just like all the annoying diet-related myths out there that have nothing to do with veganism: 8 glasses of water, breakfast speeds up your metabolism, carbs are the devil! We see the same myths in these forums day after day.
However, there is plenty of science-based evidence in support of plant diets. I have posted a couple but there are TONS that are readily available if you just do the research.
Furthermore, I will continue to remind people that the most important part of veganism is about the animals.
Mercy For Animals is one of the major undercover investigators in factory farms. You can see their investigations in the link provide, including undercover footage.
****Trigger Warning: graphic violence**** please do not click on the following link without considering your self-care.
The following link contains images including:
-sick and injured cows suffering from open wounds and infections, and workers dragging cows by their fragile legs and necks using chains attached to a tractor
-sadistic animal abuse, including workers throwing a bowling ball at a pig's head, and kicking, throwing, hitting, body slamming, and otherwise torturing pigs
-slamming conscious piglets headfirst against the ground, ripping off their tails and testicles without painkillers, hitting, throwing, and dropping pigs and piglets, and confining pregnant pigs in filthy, fly-infested gestation crates
-inside tiny wire battery cages, workers smashing in the heads of baby birds and tossing live chicks into trash bags to suffocate, and dead hens left to rot in cages with live birds still laying eggs
http://www.mercyforanimals.org/investigations.aspx0 -
Absolutely unhealthy in my opinion. I went veg for a while before I found better sustainable and more healthful options for animal products/meat. I would never go back. My family's health suffered majorly. It's just not a balanced diet and it's not at all more compassionate then getting your meat from a good source.
Please don't use Youtube as a way to do "research". It's just not a proper place for that sort of huge decision. Want to change your hair colour... sure. Your diet? Not so much.0 -
Alright, I'm out for the day peeps!
If anyone cares to continue a conversation with me feel free to send me a private message. I don't bite, I promise :flowerforyou:0 -
HOWEVER, A really good reason to go vegan is for the love of animals.
I love animals just fine and I eat meat. And not in the snarky "I love to eat them" kind of way. This must mean I'm a liar.
Also, don't feed your child vegan. Go vegetarian with your child if you must. Human children need saturated fat and cholesterol to have proper brain development. You don't have to eat meat to do that but you do need animal products for cholesterol.0 -
On the breastfeeding point.. No animals are exploited in order for the baby to drink milk from it's own mother, it's natural for a species to drink the milk of it's parent while in infancy. It isn't natural to artificially impregnate other species and steal the milk intended for their baby
This is mental. It is incredibly natural. We've been doing it as a species for hundreds of thousands of years.0 -
Yes, I was making that point. Humans are animals. Human byproducts are animal byproducts so by definition a baby that is breastfeeding is not vegan. This refers back to my point that animal based proteins have a better amino acid profile for muscle synthesis and contain more of the essential amino acids that a growing baby needs. Human breast milk falls into this category.
Actually, having a diet with a variety of grains, legumes, and vegetables can provide all of the essential amino acids our bodies require.
The amount of grains, legumes, and vegetables that would be required to equal the essential amino acid intake required for a baby would be absurd, especially when the concentration of those amino acids is very high in breast milk for the reason that a growing baby SHOULD be drinking breast milk. Also, a baby can only consume so much volume in their stomach in a given day. I'm not debating that it's possible to get the required amino acids from non animal sources for an adult because if you eat enough you can get there but it's a completely different story for a baby.
^^ This guy knows his shiz.0 -
TBH, very few of the posted responses were rude. Ones that could be considered rude were very mild. First off, let me clarify that I am not vegan nor vegetarian, but i dont eat seafood. For some strange reason, when people hear this they try to get me to eat seafood or cannot fathom that it grosses me out and a pointless inquisition follows. I can only imagine what some people say to vegetarians and vegans. I mention this because if you thought the responses here were "rude" you're gonna to need to grow a thicker skin for when people will inevitably question you IRL. Personally, idgaf about what anyone else eats. I've got way too much going on in my own life to micromanage the diets of others. (since I started typing this some other, more rude comments have been made, but they're still pretty tame for this site.)
People recommending that you see a DIETICIAN specializing in pediatrics are not being rude. They are 100% correct in recommending this. The nutritional needs for growing children are drastically different from that of adults. Doctors, in general, do have a significant amount of ignorance regarding nutrition. Contrary to what someone else said, this by NO means means a doctor is ignorant, but merely the lack in depth knowledge on the topic and this is because, unless they have personally taken extra steps, the knowledge they receive regarding nutrition in med school is minimal. After speaking with your pediatrician i'd actually ask them if they could recommend a dietician (not nutritionist...that means nothing). Especially since this is a new lifestyle for you, a dietician would be a very valuable resource in learning how to meet the nutritional requirements of your entire family. Since you say the health of you and your family is your main motivator, you shouldn't be finding comments along these lines offensive since they are truly to help you receive the best outcomes health wise. You said yourself that you have no idea where to start. A dietician is a good place, after speaking with your doctors.
A healthy, BALANCED vegan diet can be achieved, but it will require *researching facts* and consulting with professionals is recommended if it's new to you. Anecdotes, may be helpful, but id really maybe look to them for meal ideas and maybe how they overcame some of the challenges with the transition vs what your family may require nutritionally. I see that you stated that you dont see how it could be harmful because it's HEALTHY foods, but that concerns me. Vegan does not automatically equal healthy. Technically, you can have a diet completely comprised of pasta, potatoes, carrots and Oreos and be considered vegan, but you'd *severly be lacking in nutrients* and you wouldn't be providing your body with all that it NEEDS to be *healthy*. I'm not saying this is what your diet will be like, it's just an example, because it becomes very easy to rely on starches when trying to go veg or vegan. Similarly, an omnivorous diet doesn't automatically mean any more or less healthy than a veg or vegan diet. It really will all boil down to how balanced your diet is in providing required nutrition. Also, your daughter's food preferences will change as she grows so I would not use the fact the she currently prefers fruits and veg as a REASON for going vegan. It might make transition for her easier, once ok'd by her md and a balanced diet can be prepared for her, but certainly shouldn't be a deciding factor when making such large lifestyle change.
Someone mentioned easing into it and I think that's a good suggestion. Omnivore to vegan is a DRASTIC change. Maybe decrease your meat consumption. Maybe finish up what you have in the house already. Then maybe transition to vegetarian. Add in some vegan meals. Once you're ready & have obtained adquate knowledge and education you can transition to a vegan diet and be making wonderfully healthy, varied and delicious meals. Many things some people wouldn't even consider might not be vegan aren't, so that's another thing to keep in mind. Most gelatinous products (jello, gummy snacks) are made from gelatin (collagen) (I'm sure there are vegan alternatives though), some red food coloring is made from beetles, items can be cooked in or with chicken stock (for example I cook my quinoa with chicken broth), milk/eggs are ingredients in so, so many products, if you really want to be strict about it, capsules for medicine are often made from gelatin and tablets or capsules may contain lactose, etc etc. Vegan is a lifestyle and the welfare if the animals is a huge part if the lifestyle.
Slightly off topic, re: that meme about drinking milk...uh..I still don't think it sounds creepy, but ..uh..good try? That's the type of post that give vegans a bad name...one radical person/statement/comment/meme/whatever with an inability to accept that others choose to eat a different diet than them overshadows the many, many vegans who are rational, open-minded people who understand that there are different choices for everyone and accept that as part of the beauty and diversity of life. If one want sto EDUCATE with facts, not propaganda, I respect that, but if theyre out to shame or guilt others because of their dietary choices, then it's time to stop acting childish and act like the adult that I know is hiding deep inside of them.0 -
To all the bros in here: I get it, you're responding to the rampant pseudoscience in the "health vegan" movement - those people piss me off too! Just like all the annoying diet-related myths out there that have nothing to do with veganism: 8 glasses of water, breakfast speeds up your metabolism, carbs are the devil! We see the same myths in these forums day after day.
However, there is plenty of science-based evidence in support of plant diets. I have posted a couple but there are TONS that are readily available if you just do the research.
Furthermore, I will continue to remind people that the most important part of veganism is about the animals.
Mercy For Animals is one of the major undercover investigators in factory farms. You can see their investigations in the link provide, including undercover footage.
****Trigger Warning: graphic violence**** please do not click on the following link without considering your self-care.
The following link contains images including:
-sick and injured cows suffering from open wounds and infections, and workers dragging cows by their fragile legs and necks using chains attached to a tractor
-sadistic animal abuse, including workers throwing a bowling ball at a pig's head, and kicking, throwing, hitting, body slamming, and otherwise torturing pigs
-slamming conscious piglets headfirst against the ground, ripping off their tails and testicles without painkillers, hitting, throwing, and dropping pigs and piglets, and confining pregnant pigs in filthy, fly-infested gestation crates
-inside tiny wire battery cages, workers smashing in the heads of baby birds and tossing live chicks into trash bags to suffocate, and dead hens left to rot in cages with live birds still laying eggs
http://www.mercyforanimals.org/investigations.aspx
I never said it wasn't possible to be healthy eating vegan, of course it is. It's harder to get the required protein and essential amino acids and I'm sure it's harder to get enough fat if you're eating vegan but it's definitely possible if you're willing to put in the effort in your diet. The thing that upsets me is when someone decides to put their infant on a restrictive diet because of their own views, and yes Veganism and plant based diets are restrictive diets by definition. I have nothing against any adult choosing to eat vegan, that's a personal choice for you, and as long as you don't bash me for choosing to eat meat, eat cheese, and drink milk, which is a personal choice for me, then we don't have a problem.0 -
On the breastfeeding point.. No animals are exploited in order for the baby to drink milk from it's own mother, it's natural for a species to drink the milk of it's parent while in infancy. It isn't natural to artificially impregnate other species and steal the milk intended for their baby
This is mental. It is incredibly natural. We've been doing it as a species for hundreds of thousands of years.
...What?
Just because we've been doing it for ages doesn't make it natural at all, it's just something we've learnt to do. Seriously, what creep looked at a cow's udder and went "Yum, I wanna suck on that!". More to the point, what other animal enslaves another species for it's milk or eggs? No other species treats others the way humans do.
To be honest, if it were that people had their own cow and she naturally got pregnant, and the family decided to have some of her milk for nutritional reasons, without her calf missing out, then I can get on board with that. But the modern factory farming manner of obtaining milk is so unnatural it's gross, right from the artificial insemination down to the cow's infant being taken from her within a day or two of birthing it.
I respect your decision to be an omnivore, just don't tell me the way we farm animals is natural. It ain't!0 -
I didn´t like meat as a child as well... Now I like it on ocassion. So many kids don´t like meat when they are young.
I don´t belive in the vegan lifestyle so I cannot recomment anything to you. For me it´s an unnatural diet for human kind. However being vegan became pretty "in" thru the last years. And I think what is true is that if you choose out of two extremes:
- eating meat/animal products everyday (like some people in western societies do)
- eating no meat/animal products at all
the second option might be rather healthy. But in general 1 or 2 times meat a week is nothing bad for you... Of course you need to make sure where you get your meat from. The industrial production is no good meat source....
And a vegan diet doesn´t give you all the B-vitamins you need. You will have to take nutrition pills for that. Eating more raw fruit and veggies makes sense. but all extremes are usually not good.
Just my 5 cents
Some people think the ‘plant-based, whole foods diet’ is extreme. Half a million people a year will have their chests opened up and a vein taken from their leg and sewn onto their coronary artery. Some people would call that, extreme.
- Caldwell Esselstyn Jr., M.D.0 -
I personally eat a mainly vegan high fruit based diet and I love it,
will most definitely be raising my kids vegan too0 -
Animal domestication is relatively recent, with the most extreme estimate of animal domestication starting around 9,000BC. More conservative estimates are on the order of 5,000BC. Animal domestication, and farming, are not things that have been done throughout human history. Drinking milk is relatively new, which may explain why many adult humans are lactose intolerant.0
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well said, kmart 9190
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To all the bros in here: I get it, you're responding to the rampant pseudoscience in the "health vegan" movement - those people piss me off too! Just like all the annoying diet-related myths out there that have nothing to do with veganism: 8 glasses of water, breakfast speeds up your metabolism, carbs are the devil! We see the same myths in these forums day after day.
However, there is plenty of science-based evidence in support of plant diets. I have posted a couple but there are TONS that are readily available if you just do the research.
Furthermore, I will continue to remind people that the most important part of veganism is about the animals.
Mercy For Animals is one of the major undercover investigators in factory farms. You can see their investigations in the link provide, including undercover footage.
****Trigger Warning: graphic violence**** please do not click on the following link without considering your self-care.
The following link contains images including:
-sick and injured cows suffering from open wounds and infections, and workers dragging cows by their fragile legs and necks using chains attached to a tractor
-sadistic animal abuse, including workers throwing a bowling ball at a pig's head, and kicking, throwing, hitting, body slamming, and otherwise torturing pigs
-slamming conscious piglets headfirst against the ground, ripping off their tails and testicles without painkillers, hitting, throwing, and dropping pigs and piglets, and confining pregnant pigs in filthy, fly-infested gestation crates
-inside tiny wire battery cages, workers smashing in the heads of baby birds and tossing live chicks into trash bags to suffocate, and dead hens left to rot in cages with live birds still laying eggs
http://www.mercyforanimals.org/investigations.aspx
I never said it wasn't possible to be healthy eating vegan, of course it is. It's harder to get the required protein and essential amino acids and I'm sure it's harder to get enough fat if you're eating vegan but it's definitely possible if you're willing to put in the effort in your diet. The thing that upsets me is when someone decides to put their infant on a restrictive diet because of their own views, and yes Veganism and plant based diets are restrictive diets by definition. I have nothing against any adult choosing to eat vegan, that's a personal choice for you, and as long as you don't bash me for choosing to eat meat, eat cheese, and drink milk, which is a personal choice for me, then we don't have a problem.
Oh, and I definitely agree with you on this one AJ_G. I wouldn't force any diet on my child, I'd leave it entirely up to them to decide as and when they're ready, same with religion and any other personal choice.0 -
My baby has been vegan since conception and is 19 months now....he is so far perfect in every way health wise. I've been vegan for almost 7 years.
That said, I am very careful with how we eat, AND he is still breastfed, so he is getting a lot of nutrients from me. Really he doesn't eat a lot of food anyways.
I will have to say that most people get enough protein, that it's rarely an issue, you just need to make sure your diet is varied, we eat a lot of beans, and leafy greens.
And I've based my life changing decisions off of research. Keep researching.
How can your baby be vegan if you're breastfeeding him? Kind of a contradiction. Sounds to me like he's getting most of his diet from animal based sources...namely you.
Ha! I was wondering the same thing... :huh:
Just a point, if momma isn't drinking cow's milk then baby is not getting any lactose. So if momma is vegan, essentially baby is vegan too. Unless you are making the point that momma is an animal so breastmilk is an animal byproduct...?
And before anyone blasts this post.... I have a background in nutrition, child development, and I am a former human milk tech for a local hospital. I did my homework on this one
Yes, I was making that point. Humans are animals. Human byproducts are animal byproducts so by definition a baby that is breastfeeding is not vegan. This refers back to my point that animal based proteins have a better amino acid profile for muscle synthesis and contain more of the essential amino acids that a growing baby needs. Human breast milk falls into this category.
LOL drinking milk from another species is not vegan because it is exploiting an animal who's milk was supposed to go to her babies and those babies are killed so a human can drink the milk. But drinking milk from your own species is completely normal. All species of animals drink breast milk until they are weaned. When you are an adult, there is absolutely no need for it.
I'm sure you probably didn't really mean to lump every single milk drinker in the entire world into the animal abuser crowd, but just in case you did, a little bit of information so as to broaden your horizons. My cow is a pet: loved, scratched, coddled, and petted. She keeps her babies and we share the milk until such time as the calf is weaned (which ALL bovines, even wild ones eventually do), then yes, we do get all the milk, until the next baby comes along. And there are many such evil milk drinkers as we are, whose source of milk is seen as the lifeblood and most necessary part of their ecosystem, so please don't make such overarching comments about an entire group of people. That would sorta be like me saying vegans are stupid... If you get my drift.0
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