Vegan?
Replies
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Why would a kid think they're alone?
Vegan children are rare, so it's nice to know that they aren't the only ones.
Only if diet is made to be a huge part of their identity. That doesn't seem healthy at that age.
A parent isn't the only person who shapes a child's identity. A vegan child *will* be questioned about it by teachers, friends' parents, friends, the schoolyard bully, the list goes on. Food is a huge part of culture, including a child's culture, and most of the foods traditionally served at schools aren't vegan. The other kids will notice when Baby Girl never eats the pizza, cupcakes, Valentines chocolates. Some kids won't care. Other kids will make fun of her. Some adults will make fun of her mom. The vegan play group isn't a support group. It's probably awesome for the kids to eat meals without fear of being questioned or teased.
Religions make kids give up foods all the time. Religions have play groups. And other kids do tease the kids who don't get to eat what they do. It's just life. Food is a big part of life though, so what's the harm in a child having a vegan play group as long as they aren't banned from spending time with other kids?0 -
I love this response.
Very thoughtful. :flowerforyou:
Why thank you :blushing:0 -
Most people don't drink their cat or dog's milk and they are their pets, so it just seems odd that cows are treated differently. Most people would not have the urge to drink the cat or dog's milk so why would they have the urge to drink the cows? I would love to have a cow as a pet. But I would treat them like a dog or cat and not milk them after their babies are weaned.
Thank! Omg that was hands down the funniest thing I've read in a while. LoL Seriously?! All I could do after that was imagine someone trying to milk a little kitty teet. :laugh: :flowerforyou: :flowerforyou:
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Why would a kid think they're alone?
Vegan children are rare, so it's nice to know that they aren't the only ones.
Only if diet is made to be a huge part of their identity. That doesn't seem healthy at that age.
A parent isn't the only person who shapes a child's identity. A vegan child *will* be questioned about it by teachers, friends' parents, friends, the schoolyard bully, the list goes on. Food is a huge part of culture, including a child's culture, and most of the foods traditionally served at schools aren't vegan. The other kids will notice when Baby Girl never eats the pizza, cupcakes, Valentines chocolates. Some kids won't care. Other kids will make fun of her. Some adults will make fun of her mom. The vegan play group isn't a support group. It's probably awesome for the kids to eat meals without fear of being questioned or teased.
Religions make kids give up foods all the time. Religions have play groups. And other kids do tease the kids who don't get to eat what they do. It's just life. Food is a big part of life though, so what's the harm in a child having a vegan play group as long as they aren't banned from spending time with other kids?
Yes, it's just like religion.0 -
Why would a kid think they're alone?
Vegan children are rare, so it's nice to know that they aren't the only ones.
Only if diet is made to be a huge part of their identity. That doesn't seem healthy at that age.
A parent isn't the only person who shapes a child's identity. A vegan child *will* be questioned about it by teachers, friends' parents, friends, the schoolyard bully, the list goes on. Food is a huge part of culture, including a child's culture, and most of the foods traditionally served at schools aren't vegan. The other kids will notice when Baby Girl never eats the pizza, cupcakes, Valentines chocolates. Some kids won't care. Other kids will make fun of her. Some adults will make fun of her mom. The vegan play group isn't a support group. It's probably awesome for the kids to eat meals without fear of being questioned or teased.
Religions make kids give up foods all the time. Religions have play groups. And other kids do tease the kids who don't get to eat what they do. It's just life. Food is a big part of life though, so what's the harm in a child having a vegan play group as long as they aren't banned from spending time with other kids?
Thank you FlaxMilk. I couldn't have said it better myself!0 -
Yes, it's just like religion.
The only thing is it's not a religion. My kids are so much more than being vegan, but it's nice to be around like minded people. The playgroup is an offshoot of an adult organization that gets together just for that same reason. It's nice to meet and become friends because of shared common interest. There are organizations like that all over the country for just about any activity, idea or lifestyle, so why can't vegans have one too.0 -
Yes, it's just like religion.
Most religions have rules on what is and not is acceptable. Those rules may be based on a belief in a higher power, a sacred text, personal sacrifice, cleanliness, and morality.
I'm not going to single out religions here because that's not the point of the thread. But why is a religion recommending that its followers not eat meat on Fridays, pork ever, follow certain combinations and preparation methods, or ban certain products altogether somehow more valid than a vegan's reasoning that they don't want to be omnivorous for whatever their reasoning is?0 -
Thank you FlaxMilk. I couldn't have said it better myself!
:flowerforyou:
I've been a veg (by choice) as a child, adolescent, and adult. I would have loved having some veggie friends. It's one thing I love about MFP-I know many more people who eat like I do here than I can come close to "in real life." I get ideas, advice, and just knowing I don't have to explain myself.0 -
I've been a veg (by choice) as a child, adolescent, and adult. I would have loved having some veggie friends. It's one thing I love about MFP-I know many more people who eat like I do here than I can come close to "in real life." I get ideas, advice, and just knowing I don't have to explain myself.
That's cool that you've been a veg by choice. I grew up in a conservative, gun loving, dairy farming community, so obviously I was taught to hunt and was told vegetarians were evil and I believed it. Fast forward a decade and living in a city, so no surprise that I meet a number of people who are vegetarians. I have vegetarian meals and enjoy them. The next thing I know, I'm vegetarian and a short while later a vegan. It's good to have veggie friends. It really made the transition easier and it's great to talk about recipes and experiences with vegan/vegetarianism.0 -
Yes, it's just like religion.
Most religions have rules on what is and not is acceptable. Those rules may be based on a belief in a higher power, a sacred text, personal sacrifice, cleanliness, and morality.
I'm not going to single out religions here because that's not the point of the thread. But why is a religion recommending that its followers not eat meat on Fridays, pork ever, follow certain combinations and preparation methods, or ban certain products altogether somehow more valid than a vegan's reasoning that they don't want to be omnivorous for whatever their reasoning is?
Nutrition is usually based on science, not belief. Omnivory is the natural state of human beings. People can and do chose not to live like that and that's fine. Religion doesn't try to be rational in it's practices.0 -
Where you live can have a huge impact on it being viable. My family members weren't vegetarian, and they weren't wild about my decision, but it overall wasn't too bad.0
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Nutrition is usually based on science, not belief. Omnivory is the natural state of human beings. People can and do chose not to live like that and that's fine. Religion doesn't try to be rational in it's practices.
A great deal of vegans are motivated by belief, not nutrition. (Yes, there are some motivated by nutrition.) I'm not going to get into the moral reasons here, because it will derail the thread into debating the specific issues, but some of the most common reasons people choose veganism is based on morals/ethics/whatever you want to call it.
So what's the difference?
I would be vegan even if it could be proven to me that my health will not be as optimal as if I were omnivorous. It's not rational physically, but that's not the only factor that makes my decisions. *A lot of the food we have created in modern society is not rational or optimal, it's just delicious. What's the difference, again?0 -
Nutrition is usually based on science, not belief. Omnivory is the natural state of human beings. People can and do chose not to live like that and that's fine. Religion doesn't try to be rational in it's practices.
Well if it's science you want. There are many studies that show vegetarians and vegans have longer lives and suffer from less cancer and cardiovascular disease.0 -
Nutrition is usually based on science, not belief. Omnivory is the natural state of human beings. People can and do chose not to live like that and that's fine. Religion doesn't try to be rational in it's practices.
A great deal of vegans are motivated by belief, not nutrition. (Yes, there are some motivated by nutrition.) I'm not going to get into the moral reasons here, because it will derail the thread into debating the specific issues, but some of the most common reasons people choose veganism is based on morals/ethics/whatever you want to call it.
So what's the difference?
I would be vegan even if it could be proven to me that my health will not be as optimal as if I were omnivorous. It's not rational physically, but that's not the only factor that makes my decisions. *A lot of the food we have created in modern society is not rational or optimal, it's just delicious. What's the difference, again?
What is moral about veganism? How is it more ethical than a natural omnivorous diet? Is it moral because you believe it is (like a follower of one religion would believe he is more moral than the follower of another)?
It's not immoral to be a vegan, obviously. It's also not immoral to eat a diet your species evolved to eat so what makes one way of eating more ethical and moral than another? (Unless you're eating human orphans I guess)0 -
Nutrition is usually based on science, not belief. Omnivory is the natural state of human beings. People can and do chose not to live like that and that's fine. Religion doesn't try to be rational in it's practices.
Well if it's science you want. There are many studies that show vegetarians and vegans have longer lives and suffer from less cancer and cardiovascular disease.
Those studies only show correlation and do not compare a similarly-health conscious population that happens to eat some meat.0 -
It's not immoral to be a vegan, obviously. It's also not immoral to eat a diet your species evolved to eat so what makes one way of eating more ethical and moral than another? (Unless you're eating human orphans I guess)
Well, todays omnivore diet is definitely not what humans evolved to eat, so I don't see your point.0 -
What is moral about veganism? How is it more ethical than a natural omnivorous diet? Is it moral because you believe it is (like a follower of one religion would believe he is more moral than the follower of another)?
It's not immoral to be a vegan, obviously. It's also not immoral to eat a diet your species evolved to eat so what makes one way of eating more ethical and moral than another? (Unless you're eating human orphans I guess)
Like I said, I won't get into the specifics because that will derail into debate. I'm not interested in debating them, with you or anyone. But people often disagree on what and isn't moral. I'm not telling anyone else what to eat. I don't actually believe an omnivorous diet is immoral. Life isn't always pretty or kind.
But eating an omnivorous diet would not feel right to me, for me. So I don't. It may or may not be more rational than religious restrictions, but it is definitely not less rational than that.0 -
Ah! I typed a long response for you and accidentally closed the page! I will try to remember everything I said.
Personally, my transition to veganism went something like this:
First, I went vegetarian. Easiest part since it doesnt require a lot of work to avoid meat.
Next, I cut out eggs. This was easy too, but required a bit more label checking.
Lastly, I cut out dairy. You will be surprised how many products needlessly include dairy in them. Most of these products arent very healthy anyways so its a great junk food deterrence. (Unless its vegan junk food! Beware! Vegan junk food is delicious and it will try to suck you in)
I have found that veganism helped me become more creative in my cooking and has produced many favorite recipes. My boyfriend is also transitioning and he loves cooking vegan food so we make it a date night to try out crazy recipes! You could even make it a family thing to come up with creative vegan dishes and cook them together. We both really like cooking but that might not be up your alley. haha
Cookbooks I recommend: Veganomicon, Forks Over Knives, and How it all Vegan. Those are my favorites. How it all Vegan also contains a vegan kid food section!
Some food ideas: Portobello mushroom burgers! Just get the giant mushroom caps from the produce section, rub it around in some liquid smoke, and grill it until nice and juicy. Super easy. Assemble with your desired burger topping.
Grilled cheeze/Panini/sandwich. Not quite sure exactly what this would be classified as. Just get some vegan cheese of your choice, mushrooms, green bell pepper, tomato, tempeh, and bread. Saute the mushrooms, bell pepper, and tempeh (I usually just get the per-marinated for this) until cooked. Assemble your sandwich by adding a layer of cheeze, sauteed vegetables and tempeh, and a layer of tomato. Use a panini press or make it like a grilled cheese (I personally use a George Foreman grille) until the cheeze has become all melty. This is my favorite "Ive had a bad day and want something delicious" food.
Quinoa as a side item. Quinoa is a complete protein. I prefer it over rice.
Make sure you rinse your quinoa before cooking it, but then just cook it like rice. I usually add veggie stock to my water when cooking it. I love to toast some chopped up cashews and buy some dried cranberries to add once its done.
Some other ideas: black bean burgers, three bean chili, beans and rice, spaghetti and bean balls, baked tofu hoagies (Veganomicon has a BBQ baked tofu recipe thats AMAZING. It also has a recipe for apricot BBQ sauce. I use that sauce to make the tofu. I cut the tofu lengthwise to fit the sandwich. I top it with sprouts, tomato, and avocado. Very good!)
I hope some of this helps!0 -
It's not "needlessly", they know that dairy is addictive and they stuff it into everything they can. This is kind of like when the tobacco industry added extra nicotine to their product. Gotta keep ya coming back.You will be surprised how many products needlessly include dairy in them. Most of these products aren't very healthy anyways so its a great junk food deterrence.
That, and they don't like to throw away waste products from their processing, they like to re-use them. For example, the fat that gets removed from milk to make skim, is then used in other products.0 -
Long random post so I apologize in advance.
I tried the vegan route for a year and felt like crap. I was so so tired all the time. I was so worn down and crabby. I couldn't think straight and I had a lot of digestive issues. I did NOT eat the frankensoy stuff either. Whole foods. After about a year I got my vitamin levels checked and my D was next to nothing despite diet and vitamins. My doctor suggested working some animals products back into my diet and so I decided to go vegetarian. Within a few weeks my body was singing. The mental haze was gone. My stomach issues leveled out and I felt like I had more energy that I had for a long long time. I also had my vitamin levels checked about six months after going vegetarian and my D almost double with the introduction of animals products. With small amounts of animal products I have been getting back to normal and I feel really great.
As another poster mentioned, why don't you try plant based? Make fruits, veggies, beans, grains... your base and incorporate eggs, milk, cheeses... here and there.
I am not bashing the vegan diet BUT I am saying that as with many things in life it is not a one size fits all. Some people find it makes them feel better, I was not one of them.
The original reason that I went vegan was for animal welfare and I do strongly believe in that. It is true that the treatment of factory animals is really horrible and so that is where the change needs to start. Petitioning for animals rights and changing the law is where the fight needs to be not starting fights on MFP or spreading the most graphic cruelty images that you can find on the internet. There are many farmers who do truly take care of their animals. I know many farmers who are not factory that pine over their animals. I understand that a big brown-eyed cow dying is not the image that people want in their minds BUT death is as much a part of life as living. This is fact. We need to be smart about our food. We need to support our local growers and farmers and know where our food is coming from. Be more food wise rather than totally eliminating one food group. We should also respect and take care of the animals that are giving their lives to sustain ours.
One last thing I'll say is that I read a really struck a chord in me. I felt so so guilty about not being vegan anymore and then I watched a video online from an animal sanctuary that rescues factory animals and it got me thinking. They have chickens around this farm and the chickens would lay eggs daily. The man recording this video asked the person at the sanctuary where they take all these random eggs that are laid daily and the worker replied, "we give them to the other animals on the farm because they need the protein." So let me get this straight, a dog or a pig or a cat should eat this chicken egg because the protein is important BUT humans should not? So it's acceptable for other animals to eat other animals but we has humans are not allowed? How is that?
All the best to you in this!! :flowerforyou: :flowerforyou: :flowerforyou:0 -
It's not "needlessly", they know that dairy is addictive and they stuff it into everything they can. This is kind of like when the tobacco industry added extra nicotine to their product. Gotta keep ya coming back.You will be surprised how many products needlessly include dairy in them. Most of these products aren't very healthy anyways so its a great junk food deterrence.
That, and they don't like to throw away waste products from their processing, they like to re-use them. For example, the fat that gets removed from milk to make skim, is then used in other products.0 -
It's not "needlessly", they know that dairy is addictive and they stuff it into everything they can. This is kind of like when the tobacco industry added extra nicotine to their product. Gotta keep ya coming back.You will be surprised how many products needlessly include dairy in them. Most of these products aren't very healthy anyways so its a great junk food deterrence.
That, and they don't like to throw away waste products from their processing, they like to re-use them. For example, the fat that gets removed from milk to make skim, is then used in other products.
0 -
Long random post so I apologize in advance.
I tried the vegan route for a year and felt like crap. I was so so tired all the time. I was so worn down and crabby. I couldn't think straight and I had a lot of digestive issues. I did NOT eat the frankensoy stuff either. Whole foods. After about a year I got my vitamin levels checked and my D was next to nothing despite diet and vitamins. My doctor suggested working some animals products back into my diet and so I decided to go vegetarian. Within a few weeks my body was singing. The mental haze was gone. My stomach issues leveled out and I felt like I had more energy that I had for a long long time. I also had my vitamin levels checked about six months after going vegetarian and my D almost double with the introduction of animals products. With small amounts of animal products I have been getting back to normal and I feel really great.
As another poster mentioned, why don't you try plant based? Make fruits, veggies, beans, grains... your base and incorporate eggs, milk, cheeses... here and there.
I am not bashing the vegan diet BUT I am saying that as with many things in life it is not a one size fits all. Some people find it makes them feel better, I was not one of them.
The original reason that I went vegan was for animal welfare and I do strongly believe in that. It is true that the treatment of factory animals is really horrible and so that is where the change needs to start. Petitioning for animals rights and changing the law is where the fight needs to be not starting fights on MFP or spreading the most graphic cruelty images that you can find on the internet. There are many farmers who do truly take care of their animals. I know many farmers who are not factory that pine over their animals. I understand that a big brown-eyed cow dying is not the image that people want in their minds BUT death is as much a part of life as living. This is fact. We need to be smart about our food. We need to support our local growers and farmers and know where our food is coming from. Be more food wise rather than totally eliminating one food group. We should also respect and take care of the animals that are giving their lives to sustain ours.
One last thing I'll say is that I read a really struck a chord in me. I felt so so guilty about not being vegan anymore and then I watched a video online from an animal sanctuary that rescues factory animals and it got me thinking. They have chickens around this farm and the chickens would lay eggs daily. The man recording this video asked the person at the sanctuary where they take all these random eggs that are laid daily and the worker replied, "we give them to the other animals on the farm because they need the protein." So let me get this straight, a dog or a pig or a cat should eat this chicken egg because the protein is important BUT humans should not? So it's acceptable for other animals to eat other animals but we has humans are not allowed? How is that?
All the best to you in this!! :flowerforyou: :flowerforyou: :flowerforyou:
The problem is...the food you are recommending in absolutely no way provides a complete diet other than just pure macronutrients.0 -
cant believe the amount of unhelpful advise about being vegan in this thread, offered by people who are not vegan.
There are 3 main things about being vegan
1) you really do need to make sure your diet is healthy and full of high quality fruits/vegetable/legumes/rice etc. Try looking into mediterranean cooking, its full of amazing tasty recipes.
2) if you do number 1, then be prepared for your health to improve dramatically, this type of diet is proven to cure a load of diseases associated with eating crap (heart disease, cancer, diabetes etc etc, the list is endless)
3) be prepared for the people who continue to eat corpse, as they will try and convince you that you will die without eating corpse. Try reading the 'China Study' for even more reason to be happy about changing your diet.
Good luck, please 'friend' me if you want a vegan buddy0 -
It's not immoral to be a vegan, obviously. It's also not immoral to eat a diet your species evolved to eat so what makes one way of eating more ethical and moral than another? (Unless you're eating human orphans I guess)
Well, todays omnivore diet is definitely not what humans evolved to eat, so I don't see your point.
Define "today's omnivorous diet". I eat eggs from chickens and ducks I know are loved and cared for. I eat meat from animals I've met and know are well cared for beforehand. I actually drive many miles out of my way to obtain these things. Most people don't do that today, if that's what you mean. Obviously we didn't evolve eating McDonalds burgers and mechanically processed chicken, but we also didn't evolve eating Oreos or tofu.
Crappy omnivorous options still doesn't make us not omnivorous. Same with crappy vegan options.
(Yeah I know double negative)0 -
"eating corpse" hahahahaha
Eta: I don't know why that amused me so immensely. Possibly because the poster was complaining about being attacked for being vegan while trying to make an inflammatory statement towards non vegans.0 -
Yes, I was making that point. Humans are animals. Human byproducts are animal byproducts so by definition a baby that is breastfeeding is not vegan. This refers back to my point that animal based proteins have a better amino acid profile for muscle synthesis and contain more of the essential amino acids that a growing baby needs. Human breast milk falls into this category.
Actually, having a diet with a variety of grains, legumes, and vegetables can provide all of the essential amino acids our bodies require.
Complimentary proteins! Yay! Thank you for adding that 0 -
Nutrition is usually based on science, not belief. Omnivory is the natural state of human beings. People can and do chose not to live like that and that's fine. Religion doesn't try to be rational in it's practices.
Well if it's science you want. There are many studies that show vegetarians and vegans have longer lives and suffer from less cancer and cardiovascular disease.
Bloom, I'd appreciate any links to the types of studies you mentioned.
I read The China Study. It pretty much convinced me to give veganism a try. I then found a lot of criticism of the book on the internet and wasn't sure what to make of it. Not being a scientist or a nutritionist, it's a little tricky trying to sift through some of the BS that people believe and promote, not to mention the intentional BS promoted by monied interests.
Next I read Whole, also by T. Colin Campbell where he addresses some of the criticisms. That sold me. I became vegan. And I learned that you have to be ready for any and everybody giving you a hard time over your food choices. After I finished the book I realized that it was missing (or maybe it was there and I missed it) studies on vegans' health. I mean, we don't have to look at people in China. We have millions of vegans right here. I've been meaning to look into it further to see how the health of vegans compares to the health of meat eaters.
I didn't want to stop there, so I followed up with other books in an effort to get the whole picture. I read another half dozen or so books with different theories that demonized sugar, wheat, and carbs in general, plus one promoting more meat because cholesterol is good for you.
Out of the bunch, I think The China Study was by far the best book, but I don't know if I buy into it completely. There should be some pretty good evidence that veganism is a healthier choice, with lower cancer, heart disease, obesity, diabetes, dementia, etc., rates.
Anyway, I just started reading The China Study for the second time. If you could link me to some good evidence supporting Campbell's claims I'd appreciate it.0 -
Please forward all milk and meat products to me. I will eat them all.0 -
Look up "recovering vegan." That's my best tip for you. :flowerforyou:0
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