Fork over Knives

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Replies

  • QueenBishOTUniverse
    QueenBishOTUniverse Posts: 14,121 Member
    I don't believe that eating meat will cause cancer.
    Well the good thing about science is that it's true whether you believe it or not. High meat consumption DOES increase your risk of cancer, heart-disease, dementia, bowel problems, type II diabetes, obesity and so on. You can keep meat in your diet and still be healthy but you can also be a smoker and be healthy. These are statistically possible but why increase your risk? I am not saying 'don't eat meat at all or you'll die' - but I am saying - don't eat meat daily or you significantly increase your risk of developing some of the top health problems today.

    Prove it. Unbiased science has yet to do so.

    Sorry I have no intention on doing your google search for you but there are some good, peer-reviewed studies looking at lifestyle factors associated with different illness that you can find on google scholar or on PubMed. The China Study is the most well-known but methodologically poor. There are a number of studies out there that look at large samples of people affected by cancer, dementia etc and compare them to healthy population in terms of lifestyle factors. I suggest you do your own literature research and decide for yourself what evidence you want to believe in. I am a scientist and I certainly have made my mind - I don't work in nutrition but I can evaluate the quality or research articles and having done so I don't agree that these studies are biased.


    Having a serving of meat every two days probably doesn't increase your risk of these disease on any level whatsoever but eating meat on every meal certainly does.


    #1 Correlation =/= causation

    #2 the number of confounding variables in studies like these means that it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to isolate what is actually going on and attempting to extrapolate broad scale dietary advice from them is inadvisable.

    #3 You can't produce an article that CONCLUSIVELY demonstrates a link between meat consumption and these health issues because they don't exist. The best they can say is meat consumption along with a list of 20 something other variables all combined together seems to have a slight tendency to increase certain health risks within the population. Sorry, but that's not good enough, because as soon as the do the isolated study that ONLY looks at meat consumption within an otherwise healthy population, oh look, the detrimental health effects disappear. Plenty of people here know how to use google scholar.
  • jenmom2myboys
    jenmom2myboys Posts: 311 Member
    I became a vegetarian after watching it. My body functions better not eating meat. I had my gallbladder out 8 years ago and my body just functions way differently. I am not anti-meat and could care less how other people eat. Everyone is different and what works for some doesn't work for all.
  • chloematilds
    chloematilds Posts: 111 Member
    but these are not scientific peer reviewed journals.

    the beauty of science is, if a theory was previously proven wrong, they correct it. unlike.people.very religious about their.diet, they almost resemble the catholic.church in the dark ages.

    the same.goes.for.non vegan extremists
    I'd love to spend the whole day posting you links but I am sure we are all more than capable of finding these papers if we are interested and right now I don't have the time to compensate for your laziness.

    *shrugs* I already know what's there. However, your ad hominem attack tells me all I need to know.

    For your edification. Please, if you're looking at Forks over Knives for the first time, read a bit more before making life-changing decisions.

    http://anthonycolpo.com/forks-over-knives-the-latest-vegan-nonsense-dissected-debunked-and-destroyed/

    http://rawfoodsos.com/the-china-study/

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TboCgUmgQYQ
  • snikkins
    snikkins Posts: 1,282 Member
    I don't believe that eating meat will cause cancer.
    Well the good thing about science is that it's true whether you believe it or not. High meat consumption DOES increase your risk of cancer, heart-disease, dementia, bowel problems, type II diabetes, obesity and so on. You can keep meat in your diet and still be healthy but you can also be a smoker and be healthy. These are statistically possible but why increase your risk? I am not saying 'don't eat meat at all or you'll die' - but I am saying - don't eat meat daily or you significantly increase your risk of developing some of the top health problems today.

    I think this is the first time that I have seen Neil deGrasse Tyson's quote used to substantiate a claim of non-science. Not a lot of things make me ragey on the internet. This, however, definitely did. Burden of proof is on the claimant, i.e. you, because it is so outlandish that you must have access to sources that we clearly don't.
  • QueenBishOTUniverse
    QueenBishOTUniverse Posts: 14,121 Member
    I don't believe that eating meat will cause cancer.
    Well the good thing about science is that it's true whether you believe it or not. High meat consumption DOES increase your risk of cancer, heart-disease, dementia, bowel problems, type II diabetes, obesity and so on. You can keep meat in your diet and still be healthy but you can also be a smoker and be healthy. These are statistically possible but why increase your risk? I am not saying 'don't eat meat at all or you'll die' - but I am saying - don't eat meat daily or you significantly increase your risk of developing some of the top health problems today.

    I think this is the first time that I have seen Neil deGrasse Tyson's quote used to substantiate a claim of non-science. Not a lot of things make me ragey on the internet. This, however, definitely did. Burden of proof is on the claimant, i.e. you, because it is so outlandish that you must have access to sources that we clearly don't.

    LOL! I'm with you there, I nearly punched my computer, Neil is a hero of mine and I don't use that term lightly.
  • AllOutof_Bubblegum
    AllOutof_Bubblegum Posts: 3,646 Member
    If I don't go vegan I'll die, that's the basic premise of the film. Correct?

    I'll pass on the propaganda and have a double cheeseburger instead.

    +1
  • FatFreeFrolicking
    FatFreeFrolicking Posts: 4,252 Member
    I watched fork over knives on netflix last night. Anybody else watch it and what are you're thoughts? I'll NEVER be a vegetarian........I would keep meat in my diet but the correct serving size (such as 4, 6, and 8 oz). Now regarding protein, they said 20% of animal based protein which includes dairy based protein in your diet can lead to cancer but not vegetable based protein. This concerns me because the protein sources I'm using is all meat and dairy based (mainly dairy). Also with the addition of eating meat leads to cardiovascular issues since meat has high levels of cholesterol. Again I'll NEVER turn vegan but I hopefully these levels remain low with the serving sizes being correct and not your typical American 1 lb burgers everyday.....

    What do you guys think?

    I watched Forks Over Knives in one of my nutrition courses and immediately wanted to go vegetarian based on the documentary. Unfortunately, due to insulin resistance and hypoglycemia, I find it very difficult to get the protein I need to keep my blood sugar stable without animal-based protein. I also have Crohn's disease which limits my food choices. I can't eat many veggies without ending up with severe stomach issues. I can't eat many beans either. I'm lactose intolerant- can't handle milk at all but can handle cheese and greek yogurt in SMALL amounts. So getting my protein from other sources would be difficult.

    At this point in my life, as much as I wish I could go vegetarian, it's simply not an option for me. I think it's all about the choices you make when it comes to animal-based protein. Grilled chicken or turkey is a better option compared to red meat like steak or ground beef. I eat a lot of chicken but limit the amount of red meat I consume. I eat salmon frequently as well. I do not eat hot dogs at all. I have bacon and sausage occasionally, although I could live without it.

    American's over consume animal-based protein. There ARE studies that link animal-based protein to heart disease, diabetes, cancer, high cholesterol, etc. Anyone who wants to argue this simply hasn't done their research and has their head too far up their *kitten*. They don't want to believe that what they eat has the potential to kill them, but science is science. Animal-based protein raise IGF-1 levels which promotes cancer growth. As you get older, you want to slow down the amount of cell growth, not accelerate it.
  • LoupGarouTFTs
    LoupGarouTFTs Posts: 916 Member
    but these are not scientific peer reviewed journals.

    the beauty of science is, if a theory was previously proven wrong, they correct it. unlike.people.very religious about their.diet, they almost resemble the catholic.church in the dark ages.

    the same.goes.for.non vegan extremists
    I'd love to spend the whole day posting you links but I am sure we are all more than capable of finding these papers if we are interested and right now I don't have the time to compensate for your laziness.

    *shrugs* I already know what's there. However, your ad hominem attack tells me all I need to know.

    For your edification. Please, if you're looking at Forks over Knives for the first time, read a bit more before making life-changing decisions.

    http://anthonycolpo.com/forks-over-knives-the-latest-vegan-nonsense-dissected-debunked-and-destroyed/

    http://rawfoodsos.com/the-china-study/

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TboCgUmgQYQ

    *shrugs* You'll find that the SOS link is written by a raw foodist who carefully explains her science. Unless, of course, you don't want to be bothered reading it. It wouldn't matter what I posted or what anyone posted, since you're uninterested in anything that might counter your position. (btw, nothing produced by the PCRM or their related members counts as "science," either.)
  • QueenBishOTUniverse
    QueenBishOTUniverse Posts: 14,121 Member
    but these are not scientific peer reviewed journals.

    the beauty of science is, if a theory was previously proven wrong, they correct it. unlike.people.very religious about their.diet, they almost resemble the catholic.church in the dark ages.

    the same.goes.for.non vegan extremists
    I'd love to spend the whole day posting you links but I am sure we are all more than capable of finding these papers if we are interested and right now I don't have the time to compensate for your laziness.

    *shrugs* I already know what's there. However, your ad hominem attack tells me all I need to know.

    For your edification. Please, if you're looking at Forks over Knives for the first time, read a bit more before making life-changing decisions.

    http://anthonycolpo.com/forks-over-knives-the-latest-vegan-nonsense-dissected-debunked-and-destroyed/

    http://rawfoodsos.com/the-china-study/

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TboCgUmgQYQ

    LOL, non-vegan extremists, so asking for proof of a claim makes someone extremist? Those aren't scholarly articles, but as the person who made the original claim refused to provide scholarly articles in the first place, I fail to see how one gen-pop overview site is more credible than another. There are certainly plenty on both sides of the isle.
  • jeslaughter
    jeslaughter Posts: 131 Member
    Sorry to say this but vegetarians get and die from cancer and heart attacks too...so what difference does it make, you must watch you intake of certain foods no matter what sort of diet you choose.
  • LoupGarouTFTs
    LoupGarouTFTs Posts: 916 Member

    LOL, non-vegan extremists, so asking for proof of a claim makes someone extremist? Those aren't scholarly articles, but as the person who made the original claim refused to provide scholarly articles in the first place, I fail to see how one gen-pop overview site is more credible than another. There are certainly plenty on both sides of the isle.

    Okay, I get what everyone is saying, but the Raw Foods link is not a gen-pop overview. PLEASE look at it before you discredit it.
  • QueenBishOTUniverse
    QueenBishOTUniverse Posts: 14,121 Member
    I watched fork over knives on netflix last night. Anybody else watch it and what are you're thoughts? I'll NEVER be a vegetarian........I would keep meat in my diet but the correct serving size (such as 4, 6, and 8 oz). Now regarding protein, they said 20% of animal based protein which includes dairy based protein in your diet can lead to cancer but not vegetable based protein. This concerns me because the protein sources I'm using is all meat and dairy based (mainly dairy). Also with the addition of eating meat leads to cardiovascular issues since meat has high levels of cholesterol. Again I'll NEVER turn vegan but I hopefully these levels remain low with the serving sizes being correct and not your typical American 1 lb burgers everyday.....

    What do you guys think?

    I watched Forks Over Knives in one of my nutrition courses and immediately wanted to go vegetarian based on the documentary. Unfortunately, due to insulin resistance and hypoglycemia, I find it very difficult to get the protein I need to keep my blood sugar stable without animal-based protein. I also have Crohn's disease which limits my food choices. I can't eat many veggies without ending up with severe stomach issues. I can't eat many beans either. I'm lactose intolerant- can't handle milk at all but can handle cheese and greek yogurt in SMALL amounts. So getting my protein from other sources would be difficult.

    At this point in my life, as much as I wish I could go vegetarian, it's simply not an option for me. I think it's all about the choices you make when it comes to animal-based protein. Grilled chicken or turkey is a better option compared to red meat like steak or ground beef. I eat a lot of chicken but limit the amount of red meat I consume. I eat salmon frequently as well. I do not eat hot dogs at all. I have bacon and sausage occasionally, although I could live without it.

    American's over consume animal-based protein. There ARE studies that link animal-based protein to heart disease, diabetes, cancer, high cholesterol, etc. Anyone who wants to argue this simply hasn't done their research and has their head too far up their *kitten*. They don't want to believe that what they eat has the potential to kill them, but science is science. Animal-based protein raise IGF-1 levels which promotes cancer growth. As you get older, you want to slow down the amount of cell growth, not accelerate it.

    Hmm, cause all I'm seeing is some studies showing a correlation between IGF-1 levels on one very specific type of cancer, and other studies showing that some types of animal proteins may show a tendency to increase IGF-1. I see one study indicating that the consumption of low fat milk, increased IGF-1 but overall LOWERED the risk of colorectal cancer. Hardly seems a conclusive reason for cutting animal proteins from one's diet.
  • QueenBishOTUniverse
    QueenBishOTUniverse Posts: 14,121 Member

    LOL, non-vegan extremists, so asking for proof of a claim makes someone extremist? Those aren't scholarly articles, but as the person who made the original claim refused to provide scholarly articles in the first place, I fail to see how one gen-pop overview site is more credible than another. There are certainly plenty on both sides of the isle.

    Okay, I get what everyone is saying, but the Raw Foods link is not a gen-pop overview. PLEASE look at it before you discredit it.

    I agree with you, just trying to be as fair as possible.
  • LoupGarouTFTs
    LoupGarouTFTs Posts: 916 Member

    I agree with you, just trying to be as fair as possible.

    Not if you're characterizing it in that fashion. You're making it sound as if it's just some bored blogger writing down a few random thoughts, when that's not what it is at all.
  • PJPrimrose
    PJPrimrose Posts: 916 Member
    I do not do well without meat. I went both vegetarian and vegan with a very balanced diet. Omnivore works best for my energy levels, muscle gain and athletic performance. The vegetarians/vegans I know are no where near as strong, fast, flexible or energetic as I am. That said, I'm sure there is a vegan/vegetarian out there that can out-do me in all of these things. In general, however, I am not impressed with what I've seen.
  • QueenBishOTUniverse
    QueenBishOTUniverse Posts: 14,121 Member

    I agree with you, just trying to be as fair as possible.

    Not if you're characterizing it in that fashion. You're making it sound as if it's just some bored blogger writing down a few random thoughts, when that's not what it is at all.

    :yawn: done.
  • zyxst
    zyxst Posts: 9,149 Member
    I'm not giving up bacon, tacos, hamburgers, and Black Forest ham in case they *might* cause me to get cancer. My parents having had cancer already adds 2 to Save vs. Death.
  • geebusuk
    geebusuk Posts: 3,348 Member
    Not a very good source at all.

    Here's a decent take on it from someone who likes to eat the sort of food they promote:
    http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/09/22/forks-over-knives-is-the-science-legit-a-review-and-critique/
  • Lindaj44
    Lindaj44 Posts: 45 Member
    I agree with forks over knives that we shouldn't be eating meat or dairy that's why I am going vegan.
  • DaddieCat
    DaddieCat Posts: 3,643 Member
    Ok... I've been vegan for about a decade for ethical reasons... nothing to do with dietary reasons or weight loss.

    I've seen forks over knives a few times and as others have stated, it's highly based on the China study, which has been debunked over and over again. I see a link a couple of posts up that is a great example of some of this work.

    Whether or not IGF1 increases cancer risk or not, that doesn't really change the fact that Forks over Knives is still a propaganda film catering to a group with an agenda that is not suitable for everyone. The point of this film is not education or they would provide sources that argued both sides and showed clear data from both perspectives and not just the one that suits said agenda. The film is, in fact, a propaganda film whose intent is to scare monger enough to get viewers to buy into the diet, buy the books, etc. This is, a strictly money making scheme with a large bias toward fear mongering and some very questionable nutrition information.

    'nuff said.
  • singingflutelady
    singingflutelady Posts: 8,736 Member
    Zombie thread
  • DaddieCat
    DaddieCat Posts: 3,643 Member
    singingflutelady wrote: »
    Zombie thread

    Good catch. I missed that.
  • Alyssa_Is_LosingIt
    Alyssa_Is_LosingIt Posts: 4,696 Member
    Lindaj44 wrote: »
    I agree with forks over knives that we shouldn't be eating meat or dairy that's why I am going vegan.

    I'm glad you felt strongly enough about your newfound convictions to dig up a two-year-old thread and let everyone know.
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