Can overtraining + skipping leg day increase my bench press?

JoRocka

So your bench is less than 200 but your squat almost 400lbs? Video or it didnt happen

I can believe it... people develop at different rates, and the block is sometimes mental- sometimes you just work at different rates- it's nice to develop evenly but how many people stall quickly on OHP and have fabulous other lifts. A lot. LOL

I'm not sure dropping off leg work is the be all end all answer- but I can believe his lifts could be lopsided.
My DL is sitting just a hair shy of 300- my squat is only 215- and I have fought very hard for the last 3 months to break my 175 working range- 185 seemed impossible for me... and I can push 170 bench at the end of a high volume working set.

really- working squats were only 15 higher than my bench- that's stupid. but it is what it is ... I think my issues is squat technique- which actually makes me wonder- how is your bench technique- have you had it evaluated at all? are you trouble shooting with video or anything?

jofjltncb6

My deadlift has always been significantly higher than my squat...

...which is why I never *ever* skip leg day.

My legs can't afford to fall any further behind...


...ever.

JoRocka

less concerned about my squat trailing my dead lift than my bench over taking my squat!!!

which is why you cannot ever

EVER


EVER skip leg day.

jason_adams

Ok. I re-read your initial post, some of your intermediate posts and your last one.

Your thread title has a question, but you don't.
You've tried to demonstrate that moving or skipping your leg day is the reason you are now able to bench more. You're not asking for an analysis from the community as to how you can improve your bench. My mistake.

You state you're happy with the results. I'm glad. Keep up the good work. Remember that correlation does not imply causation though. You've got a lot of variables in play.

Please work on better titles for your threads
Over training is ACTUALLY a bad thing. There's no "right" way to do it for benefit.
I think you'll find skipping your leg day is a red herring. Just as you can't spot reduce, you body won't really let you spot grow.
Just make sure you're getting adequate rest between your leg day and your bench workouts. You should be fine.

jofjltncb6

Just as you can't spot reduce, you body won't really let you spot grow.

I don't know that I agree with this statement.

In fact, I'm pretty sure I vehemently disagree with it.

No_Finish_Line

one can definetly 'spot grow'. otherwise there would be no hysteria over skipping leg day lol

DavPul

jofjltncb6

jason_adams

Just as you can't spot reduce, you body won't really let you spot grow.

I don't know that I agree with this statement.

In fact, I'm pretty sure I vehemently disagree with it.

OK. I deserve that. Let me rephrase.

Under the assumptions that you are training properly and getting proper nutrition and rest there is no reason why your legs would gain strength and your chest would not. Big lifts like squats are known to ASSIST with the growth of other areas of the body due to the demands they put on your body to rebuild and restructure itself.

Spot growing possible by focusing on some lifts and excluding others, yes.
If you're squatting and benching for strength lifts, your body won't put all its resources into your legs at the expense of your chest, because it cannot allocate resources that way.

No_Finish_Line

true but there is a limit to how much you will progress


Not saying that is at all in play here, but eventually one may near the genetic limits for their upper body before they reach thier limits for thier lower body.

JoRocka

Just as you can't spot reduce, you body won't really let you spot grow.

I don't know that I agree with this statement.

In fact, I'm pretty sure I vehemently disagree with it.

you're right you're right

"spot sculpt"

jason_adams

true but there is a limit to how much you will progress


Not saying that is at all in play here, but eventually one may near the genetic limits for their upper body before they reach thier limits for thier lower body.

I have no evidence to support or deny that. Bodybuilders keep getting bigger and power lifters keep breaking records.
But I will go out a limb and say that 190 is not the OPs genetic limitation for bench.

jason_adams

Just as you can't spot reduce, you body won't really let you spot grow.

I don't know that I agree with this statement.

In fact, I'm pretty sure I vehemently disagree with it.

you're right you're right

"spot sculpt"

Spot sculpting generally works by emphasizing the target and/or DE-emphasizing the other muscles (ie: increase posterior delt exercises and decrease median and anterior delt loads to "bring up" your posterior delts).

If you train them all with equal loads, you can't "wish" your rear delts bigger.

No_Finish_Line

true but there is a limit to how much you will progress


Not saying that is at all in play here, but eventually one may near the genetic limits for their upper body before they reach thier limits for thier lower body.

I have no evidence to support or deny that. Bodybuilders keep getting bigger and power lifters keep breaking records.
But I will go out a limb and say that 190 is not the OPs genetic limitation for bench.

i'm not saying that either.

there is a reason why the bodybuilders keep geting bigger lol.

LiftAllThePizzas

So your bench is less than 200 but your squat almost 400lbs? Video or it didnt happen

I don't believe that you don't believe me. Video of you not believing it or it didn't happen.

Here's 1.5BW X 10 from a few weeks ago. The first couple the bar practically flew off my shoulders when I hit the top. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ld53A4upuls



(And knowing how these threads go, IN for someone who squats less than me telling me to do lowbar instead.)

jason_adams

So your bench is less than 200 but your squat almost 400lbs? Video or it didnt happen

I don't believe that you don't believe me. Video of you not believing it or it didn't happen.

Here's 1.5BW X 10 from a few weeks ago. The first couple the bar practically flew off my shoulders when I hit the top. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ld53A4upuls



(And knowing how these threads go, IN for someone who squats less than me telling me to do lowbar instead.)

Awww...man... now I miss the squat rack so much!!

jofjltncb6

So your bench is less than 200 but your squat almost 400lbs? Video or it didnt happen

I don't believe that you don't believe me. Video of you not believing it or it didn't happen.

Here's 1.5BW X 10 from a few weeks ago. The first couple the bar practically flew off my shoulders when I hit the top. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ld53A4upuls

I haven't watched the video yet...

...and you squat more than I do...

...but you really should do low-bar instead of high-bar.



TL;DR - you're doing it wrong.

JoRocka

Just as you can't spot reduce, you body won't really let you spot grow.

I don't know that I agree with this statement.

In fact, I'm pretty sure I vehemently disagree with it.

you're right you're right

"spot sculpt"

Spot sculpting generally works by emphasizing the target and/or DE-emphasizing the other muscles (ie: increase posterior delt exercises and decrease median and anterior delt loads to "bring up" your posterior delts).

If you train them all with equal loads, you can't "wish" your rear delts bigger.

you're not going to stop me from trying!!!!

LiftAllThePizzas

So your bench is less than 200 but your squat almost 400lbs? Video or it didnt happen

I don't believe that you don't believe me. Video of you not believing it or it didn't happen.

Here's 1.5BW X 10 from a few weeks ago. The first couple the bar practically flew off my shoulders when I hit the top. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ld53A4upuls

I haven't watched the video yet...

...and you squat more than I do...

...but you really should do low-bar instead of high-bar.



TL;DR - you're doing it wrong.

But. I can't do low bar while I'm skipping leg day.

LifterDave

My goal is not raw strength

Why would I want to do a beginner strength program and risk injury for no benefit, when the thing I'm doing is getting exactly the results I want and expect?

I said my upper/lower body are not of ordinary proportions, not that my body magically defies the laws of physics. Are you going to tell me that I really can bench over 300 pounds and I've just been faking it? Or am I just imagining all the squatting I've been doing?


Nope, I will not tell you that you could bench 300 lbs. But if you are lacking in technique you might be able to put up more than you realize you can.

It would have maybe helped your case if your OP had not read like a question in regards to increasing your raw strength for bench press.

Where do you get the idea a beginners program would lead you to risk of injury? And if you are getting the results you want, why does your OP read as if you are not getting the results desired?
.
Between your profile and OP it seems you would be looking to gain strength. From all your graphs on this thread and your posts it seems to me you are overthinking it all. I am curious, what would be the purpose of HST if you are not trying to gain raw strength. Even if you are just interested in hypertrophy, you still need a good base of strength in order to gain size. What are you going to gain out of that at such an early stage of lifting that you can not achieve from what you began doing as you only ran it for, what, about 10-11 weeks for 31 sessions?

elbaldwin0525

oh shXt..thats crazy. good work man.

So your bench is less than 200 but your squat almost 400lbs? Video or it didnt happen

I don't believe that you don't believe me. Video of you not believing it or it didn't happen.

Here's 1.5BW X 10 from a few weeks ago. The first couple the bar practically flew off my shoulders when I hit the top. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ld53A4upuls



(And knowing how these threads go, IN for someone who squats less than me telling me to do lowbar instead.)

Cortelli

I haven't watched the video yet...

...and you squat more than I do...

...but you really should do low-bar instead of high-bar.



TL;DR - you're doing it wrong.

But. I can't do low bar while I'm skipping leg day.

Just as an aside, I have it from mutiple reliable sources that one should never *ever* skip leg day.

jofjltncb6

I haven't watched the video yet...

...and you squat more than I do...

...but you really should do low-bar instead of high-bar.



TL;DR - you're doing it wrong.

But. I can't do low bar while I'm skipping leg day.

Just as an aside, I have it from mutiple reliable sources that one should never *ever* skip leg day.

:satisfied look:



My work here is done.










PS: OP, never *ever* skip leg day.

jason_adams

If you train them all with equal loads, you can't "wish" your rear delts bigger.

you're not going to stop me from trying!!!!

I would never, ever stand between JoRocka and her wishes. :happy:

chrisdavey

I've done this same experiment (but with 5 years of lifting experience or so). I had to drop leg stuff because of an injury. I ran smolov Jnr (but didn't neglect back work). My bench stayed the same at a pathetic 105kg (235lbs)

Sometimes, you really can't explain how or why a lift stalls or even increases e.g. I had another injury and could only squat twice in 3 months leading up to a comp. (I was still able to deadlift). Squat increased from 190 to 200kg. Dunno.

BTW I like your graphs

whitebalance

You have really not been into lifting for all that long and may benefit by just returning to a beginning type of program instead of HST. With your graphs and all, you really seem to be over thinking this when really you should just keep it simple. Maybe do Starting Strength or SL 5x5 and ensure you are eating enough and resting enough. You are not a special little snow flake. These programs work for anyone who is not truly injured to a point of keeping them from doing each lift.

My goal is not raw strength. Why would I want to do a beginner strength program and risk injury for no benefit, when the thing I'm doing is getting exactly the results I want and expect?

Well, but I thought the point of this thread was that you're NOT getting the results you want, so you're looking to change your method. Thanks for explaining HST up-thread. If I were on a plateau trying to increase the weight I can bench, I'd probably try benching more weight... Like, I don't know, maybe 80-90% 1RM for two reps, and then try for three reps the next time, and so on. It just seems to me that benching more weight would probably help increase the weight one could bench, more than ceasing exercise of other muscles or adding accessory lifts.

Also, I'm not sure what connection you're making here between doing a beginner program and risking injury.

whitebalance

As far as overtraining, I tried finding if the capacity for volume can be increased and didn't find much to support or refute this idea. I think "under-recovering" may be a more accurate description, although I am definitely challenging my CNS with this amount of volume, because it has effected my ability to sleep. (Which was one of the goals, to see if it will adapt.) I mean, this is how we make strength gains, by progressive overload. Same concept.

Thanks for this. Am I reading it correctly, that around day 146 you were doing something like 15-20 reps/set at around 50-60% of 1RM and now you're doing about 10 reps at about 70-75% of 1RM? I could be getting that completely wrong; I'm not real well versed on calculating 1RM. But if that's accurate... Have you considered doing fewer reps/set at a higher weight?

Yep. HST goes in cycles where you do sets of 15, then work your way down through rep ranges to 3/1/negatives. After the first two cycles I altered that to 20-8 reps, because the chance of injuries increases drastically in the lower rep ranges and my priority is adding mass (and avoiding injuries which at my age could easily become permanent) rather than pure strength gains. I've been able to continue increasing the weight used for each rep range, which is the metric I am using to determine whether or not I am making progress.

"... at my age..." Hee hee, you're not THAT old, kiddo. :bigsmile:

Ok, so you changed the program, adding 5 reps to both sides of the cycle. 20 reps/set is a LOT, isn't it? Well beyond what I see typically cited as within the hypertrophy range - more like somewhere in the endurance range, and that's where you're beginning the cycle? Maybe doing that many reps just fatigues you too much to bump the weight up significantly at the start of the cycle. If you don't want to do the program, what about going from 15 to 6-8 and then starting a new cycle? It would be a shorter cycle, but who cares - you're already not doing the program, so no need for the length of the program to be sacred. What do you think?

I've seen a few posts up-thread that indicate maybe you're not actually concerned over this so much as you're interested in testing a hypothesis. In which case, I guess why not try it and see, but be careful not to obscure the effect by making other changes at the same time.

Hendrix7

If you neglect to train your legs all of your lifts will go down; bench press included, due to the hormonal influx experienced after a maximal compound exercise is performed. Bench presses are rarely heavy enough to induce this phenomena and you would therefore lose quite a bit of endogenous hormones.

there is no evidence the short term hormonal changes from exercise have any effect on long term muscle growth/strength.

The whole 'you need to squat as it makes your arms grow bigger' thing has been shown to be false.

Acg67

http://www.teamunify.com/cseksc/__doc__/Shea_FatigueRecoverySupercompensation-2.pdf

JoRocka

If you train them all with equal loads, you can't "wish" your rear delts bigger.

you're not going to stop me from trying!!!!

I would never, ever stand between JoRocka and her wishes. :happy:

smart man!