Ketogenic diets DON'T build muscle
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No, I'm weak because I've only been working out for 2 months, however, I do my research. Since my deadlift went from 198 to 286 in only 2 months, I say I'm doing pretty well for myself.
newb gains.
I'm pulling 285 for a working 1 rep max.
And Lofteren is right- there is a significant difference between a true 1 rep max and a training 1 rep max.
and not for nothing at 2 months- you're still very- very very new to this game.
There is no way you could be netting 500 a day and still maintain- I was netting around 1000 and after 3 weeks was struggling with balance, excessive tiredness, violent mood swings and inconsistent lifts.
it is my understanding there is no "fixed" magic number for ketosis- but I've only ever seen in my reading you should be under 50-40 a day. 80 seems wildly high- I was under 50 for some time and I'm pretty active and there is no way I was in ketosis.Ketosis doesn't require someone to be under 50 carbs per day. The more active a person is, the more carbs they can have and achieve ketosis still.
I am new to the game, indeed. However, I am not tired at all, in fact, I have great energy, no mood swings, and my lifts are constant. (I am supplementing with vitamins though). 3 weeks into my current restrictive diet I still have the exact same deadlift after 3 weeks of inactivity, newb gains or not, that shows that my muscles did not atrophy.
Just a tip. Learn to listen to people who know more than you. Sure, think through everything that is said, mull it over in your head and challenge it to yourself, but after several years I'm still learning, have a hell of a lot more to learn, and I can honestly say that there are only a handful of people on here, just a handful, that really know their **** when it comes to either nutrition and/or lifting. If you're serious then you won't piss them off too early . . .
I'll agree with the "think through everything and challenge it to yourself part." However, experience trumps advice. I'll listen to something presented to me in a calm and friendly manner and consider it seriously. If someone is upset by that... that is their issue. :-) If I say I am feeling good, and actually have insane energy even at 1:30 A.M., that for me trumps someone who not me, not feeling what I am feeling and saying: there no way that etc. etc. etc.0 -
I'll take the advise of the person with decades more experience any day.0
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...meaning that what increases muscle-building also tends to promote fat gain
No worries. Muscle weighs more than fat.0 -
Great topic to post Ninerbuff.
And what a fantastic rebuttal post from Albertabeefy!
And kanifers posts?
My take away is:
Does ketogenic diets build muscle - yes
Is it the most optimal way to do it - probably not.
Probably the first time I've agreed with you :laugh:
Talk about majoring in the minors. Want to build some muscle? Lift stuff, eat enough protein and cals. Sleep lots. Fark, getting lost in the details is really not going to help.
Maybe some people should step away from the computer some time and lift? :laugh:0 -
No, I'm weak because I've only been working out for 2 months, however, I do my research. Since my deadlift went from 198 to 286 in only 2 months, I say I'm doing pretty well for myself.
newb gains.
I'm pulling 285 for a working 1 rep max.
And Lofteren is right- there is a significant difference between a true 1 rep max and a training 1 rep max.
and not for nothing at 2 months- you're still very- very very new to this game.
There is no way you could be netting 500 a day and still maintain- I was netting around 1000 and after 3 weeks was struggling with balance, excessive tiredness, violent mood swings and inconsistent lifts.
it is my understanding there is no "fixed" magic number for ketosis- but I've only ever seen in my reading you should be under 50-40 a day. 80 seems wildly high- I was under 50 for some time and I'm pretty active and there is no way I was in ketosis.Ketosis doesn't require someone to be under 50 carbs per day. The more active a person is, the more carbs they can have and achieve ketosis still.
I am new to the game, indeed. However, I am not tired at all, in fact, I have great energy, no mood swings, and my lifts are constant. (I am supplementing with vitamins though). 3 weeks into my current restrictive diet I still have the exact same deadlift after 3 weeks of inactivity, newb gains or not, that shows that my muscles did not atrophy.
Just a tip. Learn to listen to people who know more than you. Sure, think through everything that is said, mull it over in your head and challenge it to yourself, but after several years I'm still learning, have a hell of a lot more to learn, and I can honestly say that there are only a handful of people on here, just a handful, that really know their **** when it comes to either nutrition and/or lifting. If you're serious then you won't piss them off too early . . .
I'll agree with the "think through everything and challenge it to yourself part." However, experience trumps advice. I'll listen to something presented to me in a calm and friendly manner and consider it seriously. If someone is upset by that... that is their issue. :-) If I say I am feeling good, and actually have insane energy even at 1:30 A.M., that for me trumps someone who not me, not feeling what I am feeling and saying: there no way that etc. etc. etc.
Lol @ experience trumps advice. YOU HAVE 2 MONTHS OF EXPERIENCE!0 -
Well, if you'll listen to everything, perhaps listen to (former) staunch low-carb advocate Dr. Spencer Nadolsky, who recently switched his own diet from low-carb/high-fat to low-fat/high-carb.I'll agree with the "think through everything and challenge it to yourself part." However, experience trumps advice. I'll listen to something presented to me in a calm and friendly manner and consider it seriously. If someone is upset by that... that is their issue. :-) If I say I am feeling good, and actually have insane energy even at 1:30 A.M., that for me trumps someone who not me, not feeling what I am feeling and saying: there no way that etc. etc. etc.
Lol @ experience trumps advice. YOU HAVE 2 MONTHS OF EXPERIENCE!
Why the switch? He has no medical reason to eat low-carb, and is bodybuilding.
http://www.precisionnutrition.com/low-carb-convert
http://drspencer.com/the-low-carb-to-high-carb-switch-part-1/
He's learned that as an athlete (now doing bodybuilding) who is otherwise healthy, the diet isn't optimal for him.
Before people assume that he's now anti-low-carb, he's not. In regards to making his own dietary switch he also says:Does my success with a higher carb diet mean that I’ve completely turned my back on low carbohydrate diets? No.
Does it mean that you should immediately go face-down in a bowl of oatmeal? Not necessarily.
In fact, most of my new patients still get the low carb prescription. Why? Because if you’re inactive and overweight, it’s much easier to get your blood sugar and blood pressure controlled on a lower carb diet.
He's living proof a ketogenic diet can be healthy, but isn't optimal for hypertrophy. He's also done enough research to still know it's one of the best diets for inactive, overweight and/or diabetic individuals.0 -
Actually it was about information on building muscle on a ketogenic diet. The article I reposted mentions the lean muscle loss. And yes I didn't post that it was due to a hypocaloric diet in the OP.Your post wasn't about mass gains (though the title was), it claims a ketogenic diet caused muscle loss. Which is not the case. Your post also didn't state it referred to a hypocaloric diet.
A ketogenic diet is simply one that meets a ketogenic ratio. If you want to claim this muscle loss only happens when hypocaloric, you should state that. However, the weight of the evidence is still against you.
I'd have to research more on catabolic effect. Let me get back to you on this.Well, Steve Blechman doesn't come out and state quite that, what he says, in summary, is:
He states it's NOT the best for muscle-growth/hypertrophy. That was his claim. He does claim it's catabolic, but very little evidence actually supports that, and Lyle McDonald has repeatedly shown otherwise.Steve Blechman: http://forums.musculardevelopment.com/showthread.php/50949-The-Best-Low-Carb-Ketogenic-Diet-for-Fat-Loss!!
The bottom line is that based on scientific research, low-carb ketogenic diets are not optimal for muscle growth or muscle hypertrophy!! Low-carb ketogenic diets are very effective for fat loss and appetite control. I personally believe that for most bodybuilders some carbohydrates are necessary to hold on to muscle while losing fat during a pre-competition diet. Only through trial and error can you find out exactly how many carbs you need and how frequently they should be consumed.
So going forward, I believe it's safe to say that if someone was looking for muscle hypertrophy (sarcoplasmic) that a ketogenic diet probably isn't the most optimal way to go.The bottom line here is a ketogenic diet is NOT the best for hypertrophy in a healthy individual, and I thoroughly agree with that. There is no doubt that there is a requirement for carbohydrate intake and the subsequent release of insulin and IGF to trigger optimal anabolism. However there is no truth to the claim that the diet itself causes muscle LOSS, nor that you cannot build muscle while on it. You won't build muscle/experience hypertrophy in a hypocaloric state regardless of what kind of diet you're on.
I realize the article made some strong statements and even the evidence of muscle loss was not strong at best. The main intention was to inform those who do ketogenic diets on here and go about the process of hypertrophy, may need to alter their diet to attain the results they want.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
Well, if you'll listen to everything, perhaps listen to (former) staunch low-carb advocate Dr. Spencer Nadolsky, who recently switched his own diet from low-carb/high-fat to low-fat/high-carb.I'll agree with the "think through everything and challenge it to yourself part." However, experience trumps advice. I'll listen to something presented to me in a calm and friendly manner and consider it seriously. If someone is upset by that... that is their issue. :-) If I say I am feeling good, and actually have insane energy even at 1:30 A.M., that for me trumps someone who not me, not feeling what I am feeling and saying: there no way that etc. etc. etc.
Lol @ experience trumps advice. YOU HAVE 2 MONTHS OF EXPERIENCE!
Why the switch? He has no medical reason to eat low-carb, and is bodybuilding.
http://www.precisionnutrition.com/low-carb-convert
http://drspencer.com/the-low-carb-to-high-carb-switch-part-1/
He's learned that as an athlete (now doing bodybuilding) who is otherwise healthy, the diet isn't optimal for him.
Before people assume that he's now anti-low-carb, he's not. In regards to making his own dietary switch he also says:Does my success with a higher carb diet mean that I’ve completely turned my back on low carbohydrate diets? No.
Does it mean that you should immediately go face-down in a bowl of oatmeal? Not necessarily.
In fact, most of my new patients still get the low carb prescription. Why? Because if you’re inactive and overweight, it’s much easier to get your blood sugar and blood pressure controlled on a lower carb diet.
He's living proof a ketogenic diet can be healthy, but isn't optimal for hypertrophy. He's also done enough research to still know it's one of the best diets for inactive, overweight and/or diabetic individuals.
Thanks for the links. I carefully read through them, and I have some issues with them.
1: He did not say by how much his muscle mass increased, and even if it did, a large portion of it would inevitably be stored glycogen and water which glycogen attracts due to its being hydrophillic. That is not true muscle mass. (Now if he increases by more than 10 lbs, in the month AFTER introduction of high amounts of carbs then I'd say some of his gains are really muscle mass)
2: The second and far more important problem with his claims on the high carb diet: he has no benchmark to compare it to. He did regular exercise on his low carb stint, but NEVER tried competitive (and I would assume more intense) bodybuilding. When he wanted to go into bodybuilding, ***his coach immediately had him switch his diet***. So he never even TRIED it on the low carb diet.
3. Also, I'd like to point out, his diet was lowER carb than most people, but not truly ketosis. He was eating 150 carbs a day on average. 15% of his total caloric intake (deep ketosis should be less, closer to 5%). I am not talking integers here anymore, but percentages. I am sure he does not even have close to 300 lbs of LBM. Even if he exercises for 2 hours a day, I'm not sure he can get into ketosis. He also mentioned that he had carb binges on occasions. This is in addition to being in a weak ketosis. You know how many "occasions" prominents have? How is the body supposed to get keto-adapted with all those carbs? When carbs go in your system, your body prioritizes them, because it's used to them.
I would have liked to see a study with him doing bodybuilding for a year on a ketogenic diet, and then trying high carb. If he had done an experiment/study showing THOSE, then I would have been interested.
There is a marked difference between low carb and ketogenic.0 -
One of the major problems with the fitness community is that they try and treat it as though it were a PURE science. Science does indeed play a large role in our diet and training; however, athletes are generally well ahead of the scientific curve because they don't require a peer reviewed study to make discoveries as to what affects their performance and/or physique. This is why everything you have said thus far is basically invalid, Kanifer.
The only things you know you read out of a book because you have zero experience and, as anyone with a high-skill profession can tell you, you can know everything in the world but if you have no experience applying that knowledge than it means nothing. Please, for the love of God, keep your mouth shut and go train for years and years and then come back and read the ridiculous things you have posted in this thread.0 -
Actually it was about information on building muscle on a ketogenic diet. The article I reposted mentions the lean muscle loss. And yes I didn't post that it was due to a hypocaloric diet in the OP.Your post wasn't about mass gains (though the title was), it claims a ketogenic diet caused muscle loss. Which is not the case. Your post also didn't state it referred to a hypocaloric diet.
A ketogenic diet is simply one that meets a ketogenic ratio. If you want to claim this muscle loss only happens when hypocaloric, you should state that. However, the weight of the evidence is still against you.
I'd have to research more on catabolic effect. Let me get back to you on this.Well, Steve Blechman doesn't come out and state quite that, what he says, in summary, is:
He states it's NOT the best for muscle-growth/hypertrophy. That was his claim. He does claim it's catabolic, but very little evidence actually supports that, and Lyle McDonald has repeatedly shown otherwise.Steve Blechman: http://forums.musculardevelopment.com/showthread.php/50949-The-Best-Low-Carb-Ketogenic-Diet-for-Fat-Loss!!
The bottom line is that based on scientific research, low-carb ketogenic diets are not optimal for muscle growth or muscle hypertrophy!! Low-carb ketogenic diets are very effective for fat loss and appetite control. I personally believe that for most bodybuilders some carbohydrates are necessary to hold on to muscle while losing fat during a pre-competition diet. Only through trial and error can you find out exactly how many carbs you need and how frequently they should be consumed.
So going forward, I believe it's safe to say that if someone was looking for muscle hypertrophy (sarcoplasmic) that a ketogenic diet probably isn't the most optimal way to go.The bottom line here is a ketogenic diet is NOT the best for hypertrophy in a healthy individual, and I thoroughly agree with that. There is no doubt that there is a requirement for carbohydrate intake and the subsequent release of insulin and IGF to trigger optimal anabolism. However there is no truth to the claim that the diet itself causes muscle LOSS, nor that you cannot build muscle while on it. You won't build muscle/experience hypertrophy in a hypocaloric state regardless of what kind of diet you're on.
I realize the article made some strong statements and even the evidence of muscle loss was not strong at best. The main intention was to inform those who do ketogenic diets on here and go about the process of hypertrophy, may need to alter their diet to attain the results they want.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
So shall we re-title the thread:
Ketogenic diets DO build muscle - but not as efficiently as a high carb diet!0 -
Or Ketogenic diets DON'T OPTIMALLY build muscle
Actually it was about information on building muscle on a ketogenic diet. The article I reposted mentions the lean muscle loss. And yes I didn't post that it was due to a hypocaloric diet in the OP.Your post wasn't about mass gains (though the title was), it claims a ketogenic diet caused muscle loss. Which is not the case. Your post also didn't state it referred to a hypocaloric diet.
A ketogenic diet is simply one that meets a ketogenic ratio. If you want to claim this muscle loss only happens when hypocaloric, you should state that. However, the weight of the evidence is still against you.
I'd have to research more on catabolic effect. Let me get back to you on this.Well, Steve Blechman doesn't come out and state quite that, what he says, in summary, is:
He states it's NOT the best for muscle-growth/hypertrophy. That was his claim. He does claim it's catabolic, but very little evidence actually supports that, and Lyle McDonald has repeatedly shown otherwise.Steve Blechman: http://forums.musculardevelopment.com/showthread.php/50949-The-Best-Low-Carb-Ketogenic-Diet-for-Fat-Loss!!
The bottom line is that based on scientific research, low-carb ketogenic diets are not optimal for muscle growth or muscle hypertrophy!! Low-carb ketogenic diets are very effective for fat loss and appetite control. I personally believe that for most bodybuilders some carbohydrates are necessary to hold on to muscle while losing fat during a pre-competition diet. Only through trial and error can you find out exactly how many carbs you need and how frequently they should be consumed.
So going forward, I believe it's safe to say that if someone was looking for muscle hypertrophy (sarcoplasmic) that a ketogenic diet probably isn't the most optimal way to go.The bottom line here is a ketogenic diet is NOT the best for hypertrophy in a healthy individual, and I thoroughly agree with that. There is no doubt that there is a requirement for carbohydrate intake and the subsequent release of insulin and IGF to trigger optimal anabolism. However there is no truth to the claim that the diet itself causes muscle LOSS, nor that you cannot build muscle while on it. You won't build muscle/experience hypertrophy in a hypocaloric state regardless of what kind of diet you're on.
I realize the article made some strong statements and even the evidence of muscle loss was not strong at best. The main intention was to inform those who do ketogenic diets on here and go about the process of hypertrophy, may need to alter their diet to attain the results they want.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
So shall we re-title the thread:
Ketogenic diets DO build muscle - but not as efficiently as a high carb diet!
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
it doesn't matter what you think- or how you are doing. 500 calories is completely unsustainable- even for someone in a coma lying on a bed doing NOTHING- much less someone who is weight training.Well uhh... I am... I am tracking my calories accurately... and I have the exact same strength I had on a 3000+ calorie diet, though I expect it won't last too long. I have to point out I was at 30% body fat 3 weeks ago. I am currently at 25%. I was borderline obese.... i had too much energy stored. And yes, I work out hard... I do strength training, and I go until I cannot do a single extra rep.
Edit: From your picture you don't look like you have more than 15% body fat or so, am I right? I imagine suddenly going low calorie would be more harmful for you.
Edit 2: I get adequate rest... I only work out twice a week.
Edit 3: In my current phase, I am not looking to make gains, but lose body fat, on a NORMAL ketogenic diet, I will expect to see some gains. My calories will be in the 3000s.
I'm VERY VERY happy to see you're going to be eating more food.
I'm glad you are eating more. 3000 is a much more reasonable number. Seriously- massive under eating wrecks so much havoc on your body- gains- CNS and hormones.
(Also- kudo's to me- a solid deficit for steady weight loss since April- and I finally pulled 305- I've been under 300 for months- no way this happens on a severely restricted diet)
HAH- thanks- but no- I'm easily sitting at 25% or higher. I'm a fatty mc fatty right now- I just came off my bulk- I've dropped almost 12 solid pounds- but I'm still easily in the mid to high 20's. My baseline - none work days is 1700 (this is a deficit for me) and I eat upwards of 2500 on work out days.
I'd like to point out also - just losing body fat and working out 2 times a week (which is good) will not make you significant gains- which I realize you said you weren't trying to get- but you will hurt yourself long term if you have any aspiration for size or strength. In which case- (if you do) I would highly recommend getting on a solid program and lifting the hell out of it while you have a chance to maximize your newb gains.
He's living proof a ketogenic diet can be healthy, but isn't optimal for hypertrophy. He's also done enough research to still know it's one of the best diets for inactive, overweight and/or diabetic individuals.Lol @ experience trumps advice. YOU HAVE 2 MONTHS OF EXPERIENCE!
I feel like this thread of these two thoughts weren't read as intended- the experience had more to do with him not listening to what experienced lifters were saying- verses him not listening to all the stuff from the keto experts.
But I think that goes back to goals.
If you are just trying to lose weight and you don't care so much about gains- then keto you're heart and liver out.
If you want to actually get some where with your strength and muscle growth- don't bother with keto.One of the major problems with the fitness community is that they try and treat it as though it were a PURE science. Science does indeed play a large role in our diet and training; however, athletes are generally well ahead of the scientific curve because they don't require a peer reviewed study to make discoveries as to what affects their performance and/or physique
the truth is strong with this post.
people have been stressing/changing/adapting/pushing their bodies for hundreds and hundreds of years- if someone who has been training for almost as long as you have been alive is doing it- odds are, there is a good god damn reason he can do what he does and he's worth listening to.0 -
saving to read later0
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Or Ketogenic diets DON'T OPTIMALLY build muscle
Actually it was about information on building muscle on a ketogenic diet. The article I reposted mentions the lean muscle loss. And yes I didn't post that it was due to a hypocaloric diet in the OP.Your post wasn't about mass gains (though the title was), it claims a ketogenic diet caused muscle loss. Which is not the case. Your post also didn't state it referred to a hypocaloric diet.
A ketogenic diet is simply one that meets a ketogenic ratio. If you want to claim this muscle loss only happens when hypocaloric, you should state that. However, the weight of the evidence is still against you.
I'd have to research more on catabolic effect. Let me get back to you on this.
Yes that's better.
That way anyone reading just the title will not be under the misapprehension that you cannot build muscle on a Keto diet.
Well, Steve Blechman doesn't come out and state quite that, what he says, in summary, is:
He states it's NOT the best for muscle-growth/hypertrophy. That was his claim. He does claim it's catabolic, but very little evidence actually supports that, and Lyle McDonald has repeatedly shown otherwise.Steve Blechman: http://forums.musculardevelopment.com/showthread.php/50949-The-Best-Low-Carb-Ketogenic-Diet-for-Fat-Loss!!
The bottom line is that based on scientific research, low-carb ketogenic diets are not optimal for muscle growth or muscle hypertrophy!! Low-carb ketogenic diets are very effective for fat loss and appetite control. I personally believe that for most bodybuilders some carbohydrates are necessary to hold on to muscle while losing fat during a pre-competition diet. Only through trial and error can you find out exactly how many carbs you need and how frequently they should be consumed.
So going forward, I believe it's safe to say that if someone was looking for muscle hypertrophy (sarcoplasmic) that a ketogenic diet probably isn't the most optimal way to go.The bottom line here is a ketogenic diet is NOT the best for hypertrophy in a healthy individual, and I thoroughly agree with that. There is no doubt that there is a requirement for carbohydrate intake and the subsequent release of insulin and IGF to trigger optimal anabolism. However there is no truth to the claim that the diet itself causes muscle LOSS, nor that you cannot build muscle while on it. You won't build muscle/experience hypertrophy in a hypocaloric state regardless of what kind of diet you're on.
I realize the article made some strong statements and even the evidence of muscle loss was not strong at best. The main intention was to inform those who do ketogenic diets on here and go about the process of hypertrophy, may need to alter their diet to attain the results they want.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
So shall we re-title the thread:
Ketogenic diets DO build muscle - but not as efficiently as a high carb diet!
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
If you want to actually get some where with your strength and muscle growth- don't bother with keto.
That's overstating it. Just because something isn't optimal doesn't mean it's never worth considering, because there are other pros/cons aside from muscle growth when it comes to choosing a diet. Not to mention, "less than optimal" is squishy and it might mean 95% or it might mean 80% or less of the gains, and even this could vary between individuals. If we're talking 95% of the gains, the pros of a keto diet could make that 5% loss acceptable for some people. There are plenty of keto bodybuilders out there that feel their CKD/TKD is working for them, or otherwise they wouldn't be doing it.
Ultimately I think the problem with this discussion is overstatements and generalizations like this one and people referring only to an SKD when they talk about a keto diet, while ignoring other forms of keto diets. Statements like "don't bother with keto if you ever want to get somewhere with strength" are overblown and inaccurate, just in the same way the title of this post completely overstated the OP's point of "less than optimal gains bulking on keto." I'd agree an SKD isn't optimal for someone trying to bulk or gain strength, but then again I don't know many people that go around trying to bulk on an SKD as they usually realize before long they need some carbs in their diet, be it in the form of a CKD/TKD or just a higher daily carb macro/non-keto diet.0 -
Fair enough.
But I'm already at a disadvantage being a woman- why would I want to waste even more time and energy trying to fight for keto and building muscles when It's already MONTHS of careful dieting and hard work under OPTIMAL conditions.
I guess I just seriously don't understand- if you are serious about training and have big long term goals ( you want to get some where)- why would you pick the way that is proven to not be as effective and it takes longer??? (the exclusion to this would be medical conditions) I don't think it's truly that big of an overstatement.
There maybe time and place for it- but specifically for trying to build size and strength- what's the justification for doing it other than it's cool and a fad and seems like something to do?0 -
I don't really disagree with you and I think that's why most people I see following variants of keto diets aren't trying for maximum muscle gain. The vast majority are using keto diets for fat loss, and I know some people that use it for recomping or very lean bulking as well, as they find it helps them stay lean while making slow and steady progress. I'm sure there are some people out there that decided to dirty bulk on a standard keto diet, but I don't really know any and I doubt it was anywhere close to optimal.
At the end of the day, it's just a tool that you can use if you think it will be helpful for your goals. That certainly doesn't mean it's the right/optimal tool for everyone and every goal though.0 -
Or Ketogenic diets DON'T OPTIMALLY build muscle
Actually it was about information on building muscle on a ketogenic diet. The article I reposted mentions the lean muscle loss. And yes I didn't post that it was due to a hypocaloric diet in the OP.Your post wasn't about mass gains (though the title was), it claims a ketogenic diet caused muscle loss. Which is not the case. Your post also didn't state it referred to a hypocaloric diet.
A ketogenic diet is simply one that meets a ketogenic ratio. If you want to claim this muscle loss only happens when hypocaloric, you should state that. However, the weight of the evidence is still against you.
I'd have to research more on catabolic effect. Let me get back to you on this.
Well, Steve Blechman doesn't come out and state quite that, what he says, in summary, is:
He states it's NOT the best for muscle-growth/hypertrophy. That was his claim. He does claim it's catabolic, but very little evidence actually supports that, and Lyle McDonald has repeatedly shown otherwise.Steve Blechman: http://forums.musculardevelopment.com/showthread.php/50949-The-Best-Low-Carb-Ketogenic-Diet-for-Fat-Loss!!
The bottom line is that based on scientific research, low-carb ketogenic diets are not optimal for muscle growth or muscle hypertrophy!! Low-carb ketogenic diets are very effective for fat loss and appetite control. I personally believe that for most bodybuilders some carbohydrates are necessary to hold on to muscle while losing fat during a pre-competition diet. Only through trial and error can you find out exactly how many carbs you need and how frequently they should be consumed.
So going forward, I believe it's safe to say that if someone was looking for muscle hypertrophy (sarcoplasmic) that a ketogenic diet probably isn't the most optimal way to go.The bottom line here is a ketogenic diet is NOT the best for hypertrophy in a healthy individual, and I thoroughly agree with that. There is no doubt that there is a requirement for carbohydrate intake and the subsequent release of insulin and IGF to trigger optimal anabolism. However there is no truth to the claim that the diet itself causes muscle LOSS, nor that you cannot build muscle while on it. You won't build muscle/experience hypertrophy in a hypocaloric state regardless of what kind of diet you're on.
I realize the article made some strong statements and even the evidence of muscle loss was not strong at best. The main intention was to inform those who do ketogenic diets on here and go about the process of hypertrophy, may need to alter their diet to attain the results they want.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
So shall we re-title the thread:
Ketogenic diets DO build muscle - but not as efficiently as a high carb diet!
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Yes that's better.
That way anyone reading just the title will not be under the misapprehension that you cannot build muscle on a Keto diet. 0 -
At the end of the day, it's just a tool that you can use if you think it will be helpful for your goals. That certainly doesn't mean it's the right/optimal tool for everyone and every goal though.
YES!0
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