Ketogenic diets DON'T build muscle
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oookaay *sigh
So you are saying that muscle mass and muscular strength are the same???
Not at all! I was agreeing with you that it was a subject better left for another time. That mixing the two would cause chaos..that's my you are right gif..LOL :flowerforyou:
Ah, ok0 -
So you are suggesting that I never entered ketosis yet I lost 50lbs in 3 months eating on average 4,000 calories a day? And as much as 10,000 calories on my carb nite? My friend, there is only one explanation for that fat loss and it is ketosis.
For people who have large body fat percentages and high lean body fat mass and do extensive power lifting, cleaning up a diet will result in weight loss.
10,000 calories cannot be stored in one day anyway.
How much were you eating before you lost the 50 lbs? 6000 calories daily?
Edit: Also, how often did you do the carb night? Once a week? If so, then it simply reset your leptin to optimal levels, allowing you to burn fat at full speed.0 -
So you are suggesting that I never entered ketosis yet I lost 50lbs in 3 months eating on average 4,000 calories a day? And as much as 10,000 calories on my carb nite? My friend, there is only one explanation for that fat loss and it is ketosis.
For people who have large body fat percentages and high lean body fat mass and do extensive power lifting, cleaning up a diet will result in weight loss.
10,000 calories cannot be stored in one day anyway.
How much were you eating before you lost the 50 lbs? 6000 calories daily?
He also said he lost 20lbs of muscle in that 50lbs... which resulted in lower lifts, hence his bailing on the idea. Which of course, is fine- if the method interferes with your goals, don't use it.0 -
So you are suggesting that I never entered ketosis yet I lost 50lbs in 3 months eating on average 4,000 calories a day? And as much as 10,000 calories on my carb nite? My friend, there is only one explanation for that fat loss and it is ketosis.
For people who have large body fat percentages and high lean body fat mass and do extensive power lifting, cleaning up a diet will result in weight loss.
10,000 calories cannot be stored in one day anyway.
How much were you eating before you lost the 50 lbs? 6000 calories daily?
He also said he lost 20lbs of muscle in that 50lbs... which resulted in lower lifts, hence his bailing on the idea. Which of course, is fine- if the method interferes with your goals, don't use it.
He only said he was pretty sure that 20 lbs of it was muscle. He has no idea, in fact. In cases like this, people should be getting an inbody analysis.0 -
Definition and actual muscle mass are two entirely different things. They may appear muscular, but that does not mean they "built" muscle mass. I am eating at a deficit and seeing definition..why? Because I had a layer of fat covering up already available muscle. I did not "build" more muscle.
There are plenty of bodybuilders out there that follow a TKD and have put on plenty of mass doing so. Is it optimal compared to a diet that includes more carbs? Hard to say, but I'd probably wager they could add mass faster on a non-keto bulk. But the fact remains that there are plenty of people using TKD/CKD diets to recomp/lean bulk and adding muscle mass in the process.
You can debate what's optimal, but the notion that it's impossible to add muscle on a keto diet is nonsense.
I at no point said it was impossible, just that you can't judge their muscle mass gains by muscle definition or the fact that they "look" all muscular.0 -
So you are suggesting that I never entered ketosis yet I lost 50lbs in 3 months eating on average 4,000 calories a day? And as much as 10,000 calories on my carb nite? My friend, there is only one explanation for that fat loss and it is ketosis.
That's right, you never entered ketosis. Eating 250-300 g of protein a day most certainly stimulated an insulin response. When an insulin response is stimulated, that means you were never in ketosis.
Calories in<calories out= fat loss.0 -
??? No. You are twisting my words. My only statement was that too much excess protein (above what your body needs) will kick you out of ketosis, because they are converted to glucose!
I only mentioned the insulin response, because excess protein causes an insulin response just like carbs, whereas most fats do not.
Fats do not produce an insulin response (except when eaten with ample amounts of other foods, and even then it only slightly adds to the insulin response from carbs).
A miniscule insulin response to get rid of 20 grams of sugar over the course of the day will not kick you out of ketosis. A large insulin response to get rid of 100 grams of sugar caused by 50 grams of carbs and say 50 grams of glucose converted from excess protein, WILL kick you out of ketosis.
Here's the thing. You're right in that a keto diet is typically not a high protein diet, but you have to keep in mind that when Loft said he's eating 250g of protein/day, he's also saying he's at 250 pounds of lean mass (which is ridiculously high). Your protein needs are determined based on your lean body mass and with that much lean mass, he's eating a moderate amount of protein for someone who's doing resistance training. If he had 125 pounds of lean mass, I'd agree he's probably not in ketosis at 250g of protein, but that's simply not the case. Also, having a "carb night" doesn't mean he wasn't following a ketogenic diet; that's precisely what you do on a CKD. In short, it's improper to conclusively state he wasn't in ketosis during this time.0 -
So you are suggesting that I never entered ketosis yet I lost 50lbs in 3 months eating on average 4,000 calories a day? And as much as 10,000 calories on my carb nite? My friend, there is only one explanation for that fat loss and it is ketosis.
For people who have large body fat percentages and high lean body fat mass and do extensive power lifting, cleaning up a diet will result in weight loss.
10,000 calories cannot be stored in one day anyway.
How much were you eating before you lost the 50 lbs? 6000 calories daily?
He also said he lost 20lbs of muscle in that 50lbs... which resulted in lower lifts, hence his bailing on the idea. Which of course, is fine- if the method interferes with your goals, don't use it.
He only said he was pretty sure that 20 lbs of it was muscle. He has no idea, in fact. In cases like this, people should be getting an inbody analysis.
Exactly. Unless he had hydrostatic testing done, I call BS. I'd also love to know how he determined he was 23% BF even though he is 337 lbs.0 -
??? No. You are twisting my words. My only statement was that too much excess protein (above what your body needs) will kick you out of ketosis, because they are converted to glucose!
I only mentioned the insulin response, because excess protein causes an insulin response just like carbs, whereas most fats do not.
Fats do not produce an insulin response (except when eaten with ample amounts of other foods, and even then it only slightly adds to the insulin response from carbs).
A miniscule insulin response to get rid of 20 grams of sugar over the course of the day will not kick you out of ketosis. A large insulin response to get rid of 100 grams of sugar caused by 50 grams of carbs and say 50 grams of glucose converted from excess protein, WILL kick you out of ketosis.
Here's the thing. You're right in that a keto diet is typically not a high protein diet, but you have to keep in mind that when Loft said he's eating 250g of protein/day, he's also saying he's at 250 pounds of lean mass (which is ridiculously high). Your protein needs are determined based on your lean body mass and with that much lean mass, he's eating a moderate amount of protein for someone who's doing resistance training. If he had 125 pounds of lean mass, I'd agree he's probably not in ketosis at 250g of protein, but that's simply not the case. Also, having a "carb night" doesn't mean he wasn't following a ketogenic diet; that's precisely what you do on a CKD. In short, it's improper to conclusively state he wasn't in ketosis during this time.
Hmmm. I see you're point, but I still think that even with 250 lbs of lean mass, he would only need around 125 grams of protein, up to 150 max. Depends of course, on how often he does his powerlifting. But that aside, I've actually figured out why Lofteren probably lost so much strength! I nearly forgot about this but:
Lofteren, this info is for you: Deep Ketosis where your body is fully adapted to the changes requires 4-6 weeks of constant high fat, moderate protein, and low carb. If you are refueling your carbs, you are constantly interrupting your body's attempt to become keto-adapted! The Keto-adaptation process can be seriously harsh for some people, which is why I opted to be inactive for 3 weeks (I've done ketogenic diets before that's why I didn't wait 6 weeks). Your body has to build the "machinery" capable of converting fat into ketones. During this transition phase, it is obvious that anyone will be weakened! Your old strength would return after 4-6 weeks of a CONSTANT proper ketogenic diet, i.e. NO CARB refeeds. Once you have been on the ketogenic diet for a year... occasionally breaking ketosis with some carbs will not be a problem as long as you go back to eating ketogenic for the majority of the time, as the body can switch back into ketosis easily.
Also, I believe that maintaining your strength while cutting your fat percentage would be extremely beneficial to you both physically and psychologically. I am no master of muscle mass building, but I highly recommend you give it a second shot, but this time, do it right.0 -
Great topic to post Ninerbuff.
And what a fantastic rebuttal post from Albertabeefy!
And kanifers posts?
My take away is:
Does ketogenic diets build muscle - yes
Is it the most optimal way to do it - probably not.0 -
Hmmm. I see you're point, but I still think that even with 250 lbs of lean mass, he would only need around 125 grams of protein, up to 150 max. Depends of course, on how often he does his powerlifting. But that aside, I've actually figured out why Left. probably lost so much strength! I nearly forgot about this but:
Based on what? The most trusted keto resources out there are recommending around 0.8-1.0/lb of LBM for lifters. If he's at 250lb of LBM (which, again, is off the charts), your suggestion of 125-150 is around 0.5g. That's woefully inadequate, even for someone his size that's sedentary. For someone who's not lifting, then sure you can get by with less protein because your body isn't constantly repairing and building your muscles back up.0 -
Great topic to post Ninerbuff.
And what a fantastic rebuttal post from Albertabeefy!
And kanifers posts?
My take away is:
Does ketogenic diets build muscle - yes
Is it the most optimal way to do it - probably not.
At the moment, I truly couldn't say whether the ketogenic diet is optimal for building muscle mass. Should be OK for pure strength. I am planning on testing it on myself with a permanent proper ketogenic diet. If my muscle strength gains coincide with people who use recommended diets, then I will consider it a good runner-up. At the moment, I am only sure that it is possible to maintain current strength and become stronger (not necessarily increase muscle mass) with the long-term ketogenic diet.0 -
Hmmm. I see you're point, but I still think that even with 250 lbs of lean mass, he would only need around 125 grams of protein, up to 150 max. Depends of course, on how often he does his powerlifting. But that aside, I've actually figured out why Left. probably lost so much strength! I nearly forgot about this but:
Based on what? The most trusted keto resources out there are recommending around 0.8-1.0/lb of LBM for lifters. If he's at 250lb of LBM (which, again, is off the charts), your suggestion of 125-150 is around 0.5g. That's woefully inadequate, even for someone his size that's sedentary. For someone who's not lifting, then sure you can get by with less protein because your body isn't constantly repairing and building your muscles back up.
OK, I'm going to test this on myself. I have 155 lbs of lean muscle mass and only take in 75-80 grams of protein. I am starting up my strength training again. If I don't have the same strength gains as I did before, then I will have to agree with you.
Edit: I was able to add 80 lbs to my deadlift in 2 months on a high carg 3000+ calorie diet. Newbie gains should last about a year, so I take it an additional 10 months of lifting with a different diet will show different results if the diet aspect was crucial.0 -
So you are suggesting that I never entered ketosis yet I lost 50lbs in 3 months eating on average 4,000 calories a day? And as much as 10,000 calories on my carb nite? My friend, there is only one explanation for that fat loss and it is ketosis.
That's right, you never entered ketosis. Eating 250-300 g of protein a day most certainly stimulated an insulin response. When an insulin response is stimulated, that means you were never in ketosis.
Calories in<calories out= fat loss.
This I don't get.
When you eat most any foods, there is always an insulin response.0 -
Hmmm. I see you're point, but I still think that even with 250 lbs of lean mass, he would only need around 125 grams of protein, up to 150 max. Depends of course, on how often he does his powerlifting. But that aside, I've actually figured out why Left. probably lost so much strength! I nearly forgot about this but:
Based on what? The most trusted keto resources out there are recommending around 0.8-1.0/lb of LBM for lifters. If he's at 250lb of LBM (which, again, is off the charts), your suggestion of 125-150 is around 0.5g. That's woefully inadequate, even for someone his size that's sedentary. For someone who's not lifting, then sure you can get by with less protein because your body isn't constantly repairing and building your muscles back up.
OK, I'm going to test this on myself. I have 155 lbs of lean muscle mass and only take in 75-80 grams of protein. I am starting up my strength training again. If I don't have the same strength gains as I did before, then I will have to agree with you.
What is your goals, might I ask?0 -
Pure strength. One day I do deadlifts working up to my 1RM, and then dips working up to 2-3M.
The other day squats working up to 1RM and pull-ups working up to 2-3 RM.0 -
From Lyle Mcdonald's site: For reasons beyond the scope of this article, the CKD is most likely not the optimal diet for mass gains.While I agree much of what you state may be true on a Standard Ketogenic Diet - it's not necessarily true of either a TKD (Targeted Ketogenic Diet) or CKD (Cyclical Ketogenic Diet).
I am a avid fan of Lyle McDonald and will submit that his knowledge far exceeds my own. Just puttin' it out there.
Coming from a major body building tycoon's magazine (MUSCULAR DEVELOPMENT) and edited by a huge supporter of bodybuilding and fitness (Steve Blechman) the article is far from biased.BTW in ketogenesis the body isn't "desperate" for energy. That idea is laughable. One could possibly suggest desperation during a starvation experiment, but not on a ketogenic diet. That comment alone leads me to conclude your article is highly-biased.
But we're not speaking on a hypercaloric ketogenic diet. The reference is to ENERGY DEPRIVATION AND KETOSIS.Your references about mTOR activation do nothing to suggest that while on a hypercaloric ketogenic diet one cannot gain muscle, and in-fact loses mass. None of your reference support this. Nor does any science I've ever seen.
Thanks for the studies. Haven't read them yet but will.
But again the article speaks of energy deprivation and ketosis diets. More people are subjecting themselves to calorie deficits and ketosis here rather than using forms of CKD. I'm not doubting that in instances of correct nutrition and applying correct exercise resistance that it's IMPOSSIBLE for it to happen, however in reference to the forums here (where people make exaggerated claims of muscle building while in calorie deficit) and to the majority of people who use ketogenic diets for weight loss, the article is actually quite accurate.While I appreciate that it can be difficult for some people to gain mass on a ketogenic diet - It's not impossible, nor does science reach the consensus that it promotes muscle loss. More studies show that even when hypocaloric, it is, by nature, muscle sparing. And experts like Lyle McDonald agree.
So the goal of the author was to deadlift more weight. He did. But did he build muscle? Did I miss that?Also in counter to your claims is an excellent article with 15 scientific references here: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/can-you-build-muscle-on-a-ketogenic-diet.html
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
Pure strength. One day I do deadlifts working up to my 1RM, and then dips working up to 2-3M.
The other day squats working up to 1RM and pull-ups working up to 2-3 RM.
Then why ketogenic diet?0 -
Hmmm. I see you're point, but I still think that even with 250 lbs of lean mass, he would only need around 125 grams of protein, up to 150 max. Depends of course, on how often he does his powerlifting. But that aside, I've actually figured out why Left. probably lost so much strength! I nearly forgot about this but:
Based on what? The most trusted keto resources out there are recommending around 0.8-1.0/lb of LBM for lifters. If he's at 250lb of LBM (which, again, is off the charts), your suggestion of 125-150 is around 0.5g. That's woefully inadequate, even for someone his size that's sedentary. For someone who's not lifting, then sure you can get by with less protein because your body isn't constantly repairing and building your muscles back up.
OK, I'm going to test this on myself. I have 155 lbs of lean muscle mass and only take in 75-80 grams of protein. I am starting up my strength training again. If I don't have the same strength gains as I did before, then I will have to agree with you.
Edit: I was able to add 80 lbs to my deadlift in 2 months on a high carg 3000+ calorie diet. Newbie gains should last about a year, so I take it an additional 10 months of lifting with a different diet will show different results if the diet aspect was crucial.
May I ask why you only eat 75-80 g protein?
I have 112 lbs of LBM and eat between 80-108 g a day (when I am not having a Crohn's flareup).0
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