Ketogenic diets DON'T build muscle

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  • Thoth8
    Thoth8 Posts: 107
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    Hmmm. I see you're point, but I still think that even with 250 lbs of lean mass, he would only need around 125 grams of protein, up to 150 max. Depends of course, on how often he does his powerlifting. But that aside, I've actually figured out why Left. probably lost so much strength! I nearly forgot about this but:

    Based on what? The most trusted keto resources out there are recommending around 0.8-1.0/lb of LBM for lifters. If he's at 250lb of LBM (which, again, is off the charts), your suggestion of 125-150 is around 0.5g. That's woefully inadequate, even for someone his size that's sedentary. For someone who's not lifting, then sure you can get by with less protein because your body isn't constantly repairing and building your muscles back up.

    OK, I'm going to test this on myself. I have 155 lbs of lean muscle mass and only take in 75-80 grams of protein. I am starting up my strength training again. If I don't have the same strength gains as I did before, then I will have to agree with you.

    Edit: I was able to add 80 lbs to my deadlift in 2 months on a high carg 3000+ calorie diet. Newbie gains should last about a year, so I take it an additional 10 months of lifting with a different diet will show different results if the diet aspect was crucial.

    May I ask why you only eat 75-80 g protein?
    I have 112 lbs of LBM and eat between 80-108 g a day (when I am not having a Crohn's flareup).

    A good ketogenic diet recommends around 1 gram of protein per KG of LBM (1kg = 2.2 lbs)
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,672 Member
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    I have a number of friends who have degrees in Kinesiology, are certified personal trainers, follow a ketogenic diet and they are very muscular.
    Muscularity isn't the same as "building" muscle. Bruce Lee was "muscular" as hell..............but his lean body mass was around 121.5lbs. Not very much muscle considering his height at 5'7".

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
  • MityMax96
    MityMax96 Posts: 5,778 Member
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    Health and weight loss. Jack Lalanne and Bruce Lee were able to perform superhuman feats even though they did not eat half a cow daily.

    That is also because they practiced their loves daily....
    Bruce Lee made martial arts a priority in his life.....

    I eat how I eat, and my health markers have improved greatly since August of last year.
    I have also went from 183 -> 168 lbs.
    My strength is still where I was, if not better.....its my joints that give me fits.

    But if you think/want Ketogenic, then more power to you.
    Enjoy.
  • Thoth8
    Thoth8 Posts: 107
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    Health and weight loss. Jack Lalanne and Bruce Lee were able to perform superhuman feats even though they did not eat half a cow daily.

    That is also because they practiced their loves daily....
    Bruce Lee made martial arts a priority in his life.....

    I eat how I eat, and my health markers have improved greatly since August of last year.
    I have also went from 183 -> 168 lbs.
    My strength is still where I was, if not better.....its my joints that give me fits.

    But if you think/want Ketogenic, then more power to you.
    Enjoy.

    That's true, trying to learn from them. What do you usually eat?
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,672 Member
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    Definition and actual muscle mass are two entirely different things. They may appear muscular, but that does not mean they "built" muscle mass. I am eating at a deficit and seeing definition..why? Because I had a layer of fat covering up already available muscle. I did not "build" more muscle.

    There are plenty of bodybuilders out there that follow a TKD and have put on plenty of mass doing so. Is it optimal compared to a diet that includes more carbs? Hard to say, but I'd probably wager they could add mass faster on a non-keto bulk. But the fact remains that there are plenty of people using TKD/CKD diets to recomp/lean bulk and adding muscle mass in the process.

    You can debate what's optimal, but the notion that it's impossible to add muscle on a keto diet is nonsense.
    How many do it on just a ketogenic diet? One absent of carbs?

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
  • Thoth8
    Thoth8 Posts: 107
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    I have a number of friends who have degrees in Kinesiology, are certified personal trainers, follow a ketogenic diet and they are very muscular.
    Muscularity isn't the same as "building" muscle. Bruce Lee was "muscular" as hell..............but his lean body mass was around 121.5lbs. Not very much muscle considering his height at 5'7".

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    He didn't do the keto diet though, he ate plenty of rice and pasta.

    He wasn't just muscular, he was insanely strong. He could side-kick a punching bag and have fly up and bang against the ceiling. I'd much prefer that kind of strength over muscle mass, though that's off-topic.
  • MityMax96
    MityMax96 Posts: 5,778 Member
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    Health and weight loss. Jack Lalanne and Bruce Lee were able to perform superhuman feats even though they did not eat half a cow daily.

    That is also because they practiced their loves daily....
    Bruce Lee made martial arts a priority in his life.....

    I eat how I eat, and my health markers have improved greatly since August of last year.
    I have also went from 183 -> 168 lbs.
    My strength is still where I was, if not better.....its my joints that give me fits.

    But if you think/want Ketogenic, then more power to you.
    Enjoy.

    That's true, trying to learn from them. What do you usually eat?

    Anything I want.

    You can view my diary, it should be open.

    This past Sunday I have about 4000 calories in it....but I think it was more like 4500....

    My 6-pack is still in place.
  • MityMax96
    MityMax96 Posts: 5,778 Member
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    I have a number of friends who have degrees in Kinesiology, are certified personal trainers, follow a ketogenic diet and they are very muscular.
    Muscularity isn't the same as "building" muscle. Bruce Lee was "muscular" as hell..............but his lean body mass was around 121.5lbs. Not very much muscle considering his height at 5'7".

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    He didn't do the keto diet though, he ate plenty of rice and pasta.

    He wasn't just muscular, he was insanely strong. He could side-kick a punching bag and have fly up and bang against the ceiling. I'd much prefer that kind of strength over muscle mass, though that's off-topic.

    So then why do u want to do Keto??

    You are right, he was extremely energetic, athletic, and strong....
    All while eating a lot of carbs
  • Thoth8
    Thoth8 Posts: 107
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    Health and weight loss. Jack Lalanne and Bruce Lee were able to perform superhuman feats even though they did not eat half a cow daily.

    That is also because they practiced their loves daily....
    Bruce Lee made martial arts a priority in his life.....

    I eat how I eat, and my health markers have improved greatly since August of last year.
    I have also went from 183 -> 168 lbs.
    My strength is still where I was, if not better.....its my joints that give me fits.

    But if you think/want Ketogenic, then more power to you.
    Enjoy.

    That's true, trying to learn from them. What do you usually eat?

    Anything I want.

    You can view my diary, it should be open.

    This past Sunday I have about 4000 calories in it....but I think it was more like 4500....

    My 6-pack is still in place.

    How much do you exercise?
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,672 Member
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    I have a number of friends who have degrees in Kinesiology, are certified personal trainers, follow a ketogenic diet and they are very muscular.
    Muscularity isn't the same as "building" muscle. Bruce Lee was "muscular" as hell..............but his lean body mass was around 121.5lbs. Not very much muscle considering his height at 5'7".

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    He didn't do the keto diet though, he ate plenty of rice and pasta.

    He wasn't just muscular, he was insanely strong. He could side-kick a punching bag and have fly up and bang against the ceiling. I'd much prefer that kind of strength over muscle mass, though that's off-topic.
    I'm not debating how he got muscular. I was comparing how the visualization of muscularity ISN'T the same as actually building muscle.

    And I would NEVER dispute his strength. As a kickboxing instructor, I've studied a lot of his videos on power and he's amazing. My BIL is an actual instructor in San Diego on JKD principles and we goof around alot when we get together. My BIL is built very similar to Bruce Lee (same height and weight) and is quite strong.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
  • Thoth8
    Thoth8 Posts: 107
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    I have a number of friends who have degrees in Kinesiology, are certified personal trainers, follow a ketogenic diet and they are very muscular.
    Muscularity isn't the same as "building" muscle. Bruce Lee was "muscular" as hell..............but his lean body mass was around 121.5lbs. Not very much muscle considering his height at 5'7".

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    He didn't do the keto diet though, he ate plenty of rice and pasta.

    He wasn't just muscular, he was insanely strong. He could side-kick a punching bag and have fly up and bang against the ceiling. I'd much prefer that kind of strength over muscle mass, though that's off-topic.
    I'm not debating how he got muscular. I was comparing how the visualization of muscularity ISN'T the same as actually building muscle.

    And I would NEVER dispute his strength. As a kickboxing instructor, I've studied a lot of his videos on power and he's amazing. My BIL is an actual instructor in San Diego on JKD principles and we goof around alot when we get together. My BIL is built very similar to Bruce Lee (same height and weight) and is quite strong.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    Yes, I wasn't negating what you said, just adding. Sorry, I was able to guess that JKD is Jeet kun do, but what does BIL stand for?
  • MityMax96
    MityMax96 Posts: 5,778 Member
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    How much do you exercise?

    Weight lift 4 - 5 times a week
    my "rest" days are about 40 - 45 min of light cardio (stairmaster and elliptical) and ab work.
  • Thoth8
    Thoth8 Posts: 107
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    How much do you exercise?

    Weight lift 4 - 5 times a week
    my "rest" days are about 40 - 45 min of light cardio (stairmaster and elliptical) and ab work.

    Wow, that's some drive. I don't have that kind of mental energy yet. After over a decade of laziness and inactivity, I am just doing strength workouts twice a week. Nothing on rest days, yet. You are pretty much working out (in some form) every day. I don't think many people can do that.
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,672 Member
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    I have a number of friends who have degrees in Kinesiology, are certified personal trainers, follow a ketogenic diet and they are very muscular.
    Muscularity isn't the same as "building" muscle. Bruce Lee was "muscular" as hell..............but his lean body mass was around 121.5lbs. Not very much muscle considering his height at 5'7".

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    He didn't do the keto diet though, he ate plenty of rice and pasta.

    He wasn't just muscular, he was insanely strong. He could side-kick a punching bag and have fly up and bang against the ceiling. I'd much prefer that kind of strength over muscle mass, though that's off-topic.
    I'm not debating how he got muscular. I was comparing how the visualization of muscularity ISN'T the same as actually building muscle.

    And I would NEVER dispute his strength. As a kickboxing instructor, I've studied a lot of his videos on power and he's amazing. My BIL is an actual instructor in San Diego on JKD principles and we goof around alot when we get together. My BIL is built very similar to Bruce Lee (same height and weight) and is quite strong.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    Yes, I wasn't negating what you said, just adding. Sorry, I was able to guess that JKD is Jeet kun do, but what does BIL stand for?
    brother in law

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
  • parkscs
    parkscs Posts: 1,639 Member
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    Definition and actual muscle mass are two entirely different things. They may appear muscular, but that does not mean they "built" muscle mass. I am eating at a deficit and seeing definition..why? Because I had a layer of fat covering up already available muscle. I did not "build" more muscle.

    There are plenty of bodybuilders out there that follow a TKD and have put on plenty of mass doing so. Is it optimal compared to a diet that includes more carbs? Hard to say, but I'd probably wager they could add mass faster on a non-keto bulk. But the fact remains that there are plenty of people using TKD/CKD diets to recomp/lean bulk and adding muscle mass in the process.

    You can debate what's optimal, but the notion that it's impossible to add muscle on a keto diet is nonsense.
    How many do it on just a ketogenic diet? One absent of carbs?

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    What do you mean by "just" a ketogenic diet? The K in TKD/CKD stands for ketogenic and the D stands for diet, so I would call those ketogenic diets. If you're asking about SKD, probably not many (just my best guess), but that's why there are tools such as TKD/CKD for people who want to follow a ketogenic diet while keeping their muscle glycogen stores a bit more replenished.
    But again the article speaks of energy deprivation and ketosis diets. More people are subjecting themselves to calorie deficits and ketosis here rather than using forms of CKD. I'm not doubting that in instances of correct nutrition and applying correct exercise resistance that it's IMPOSSIBLE for it to happen, however in reference to the forums here (where people make exaggerated claims of muscle building while in calorie deficit) and to the majority of people who use ketogenic diets for weight loss, the article is actually quite accurate.

    So if we're talking specifically about people in a caloric deficit, what makes you think it's the ketogenic diet preventing them from building muscle mass and not their caloric deficit? Studies are actually conflicting as to whether ketogenic diets are more or less sparing of LBM (and the answer may be they're roughly the same, provided protein and resistance training remain constant), but it's fairly conclusive that most people cannot build significant muscle mass in a caloric deficit. I'm not saying people don't make exaggerated claims to the contrary, but I don't think there's a widespread belief that ketogenic diets somehow build muscle in a caloric deficit.
  • Strokingdiction
    Strokingdiction Posts: 1,164 Member
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    Fascinating thread. Will have to read more later.
  • MityMax96
    MityMax96 Posts: 5,778 Member
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    How much do you exercise?

    Weight lift 4 - 5 times a week
    my "rest" days are about 40 - 45 min of light cardio (stairmaster and elliptical) and ab work.

    Wow, that's some drive. I don't have that kind of mental energy yet. After over a decade of laziness and inactivity, I am just doing strength workouts twice a week. Nothing on rest days, yet. You are pretty much working out (in some form) every day. I don't think many people can do that.

    Yeah I guess so.

    I enjoy doing it, I find it to be a stress relief.....

    Been doing weight lifting now for almost 20 yrs.....
    Used to do a lot of Volleyball and Basketball.....but now just weight lifting and my light cardio
  • MityMax96
    MityMax96 Posts: 5,778 Member
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    So if we're talking specifically about people in a caloric deficit, what makes you think it's the ketogenic diet preventing them from building muscle mass and not their caloric deficit? Studies are actually conflicting as to whether ketogenic diets are more or less sparing of LBM (and the answer may be they're roughly the same, provided protein and resistance training remain constant), but it's fairly conclusive that most people cannot build significant muscle mass in a caloric deficit. I'm not saying people don't make exaggerated claims to the contrary, but I don't think there's a widespread belief that ketogenic diets somehow build muscle in a caloric deficit.

    The other thing I would add to what you are saying
    Is that there are plenty of studies that show protein and carbs benefit MPS
  • Lofteren
    Lofteren Posts: 960 Member
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    So you are suggesting that I never entered ketosis yet I lost 50lbs in 3 months eating on average 4,000 calories a day? And as much as 10,000 calories on my carb nite? My friend, there is only one explanation for that fat loss and it is ketosis.

    That's right, you never entered ketosis. Eating 250-300 g of protein a day most certainly stimulated an insulin response. When an insulin response is stimulated, that means you were never in ketosis.

    Calories in<calories out= fat loss.

    Exactly, calories in<calories out=fat loss. My maintenance is 3500 cals a day. I usually bulk on 4,000 cals a day yet I was rapidly losing weight on 4,000 which tells me the only way for me to have lost weight on that diet is ketosis. People can hit ketosis on 100g of carbs a day if they have enough lean mass and train hard. All of the "numbers" you are throwing around such as "50g of carbs or less to eat ketosis" are ballpark figures. They are true for sedentary individuals of average muscularity but don't apply to everyone. You literally just told us that you have no experience in this yet you argue like your misguided opinion is the say all, end all.
  • jofjltncb6
    jofjltncb6 Posts: 34,415 Member
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    In...

    ...to catch up later.