Ketogenic diets DON'T build muscle
Replies
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I mean I just came across this:
http://www.ketotic.org/2012/08/if-you-eat-excess-protein-does-it-turn.htmlSummary
In sum, then, there is no evidence that we could find that consuming excess protein will increase glucose production from GNG. On the other hand, there is much suggestive evidence that it does not.
Further experiments need to be carried out to answer the question completely. In particular, we would like to see a comparison of the rate of GNG in keto-adapted dieters consuming no protein, adequate protein, or a large quantity of protein, with and without dietary fat.
And they seem to disagree with the premise that excess protein will be turned into glucose or carbs
Protein causes an insulin response almost equal to carbs. Insulin is release to get rid of sugar (glucose).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coUlGtAqmNg
Then there is no possible way anyone can ever be in ketosis.
If you ingest food, you will always have an insulin response.
Some fats will not trigger an insulin response, but other than those select few......all other things will result the same thing.....
So you can't have your cake and eat it too on this one mate.
Because by your logic, and what you believe to be true, then no one can ever be in ketosis0 -
Also see:
http://ketodietapp.com/Blog/post/2013/04/22/Not-Losing-Weight-on-Low-Carb-Ketogenic-Diet-Dont-Give-Up-and-Read-Further
and
http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/dr-charles-mobbs-diabetic-kidney-damage-can-actually-be-reversed-with-a-high-fat-low-carb-ketogenic-diet/10660
where the doctor states a ketogenic diet is 87% fat 8% protein and 5% carbs (this is an intense ketogenic diet).
also here where it is stated (use CTRL F to find it) that 280 grams of protein contain 50+ grams of glycogen even without being converted:
http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/is-ketosis-dangerous0 -
Also see:
http://ketodietapp.com/Blog/post/2013/04/22/Not-Losing-Weight-on-Low-Carb-Ketogenic-Diet-Dont-Give-Up-and-Read-Further
and
http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/dr-charles-mobbs-diabetic-kidney-damage-can-actually-be-reversed-with-a-high-fat-low-carb-ketogenic-diet/10660
where the doctor states a ketogenic diet is 87% fat 8% protein and 5% carbs (this is an intense ketogenic diet).
also here where it is stated (use CTRL F to find it) that 280 grams of protein contain 50+ grams of glycogen even without being converted:
http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/is-ketosis-dangerous
I will say this again::Then there is no possible way anyone can ever be in ketosis.
If you ingest food, you will always have an insulin response.
Some fats will not trigger an insulin response, but other than those select few......all other things will result the same thing.....
So you can't have your cake and eat it too on this one mate.
Because by your logic, and what you believe to be true, then no one can ever be in ketosis0 -
I mean I just came across this:
http://www.ketotic.org/2012/08/if-you-eat-excess-protein-does-it-turn.htmlSummary
In sum, then, there is no evidence that we could find that consuming excess protein will increase glucose production from GNG. On the other hand, there is much suggestive evidence that it does not.
Further experiments need to be carried out to answer the question completely. In particular, we would like to see a comparison of the rate of GNG in keto-adapted dieters consuming no protein, adequate protein, or a large quantity of protein, with and without dietary fat.
And they seem to disagree with the premise that excess protein will be turned into glucose or carbs
Protein causes an insulin response almost equal to carbs. Insulin is release to get rid of sugar (glucose).https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coUlGtAqmNg
Then there is no possible way anyone can ever be in ketosis.
If you ingest food, you will always have an insulin response.
Some fats will not trigger an insulin response, but other than those select few......all other things will result the same thing.....
So you can't have your cake and eat it too on this one mate.
Because by your logic, and what you believe to be true, then no one can ever be in ketosis
That was for people who usually eat normally (i.e. they do not have the capability to use large amounts of fat as a direct energy source) . When you are carb depleted and running mainly on fat, things are different.
Edit: Your body will first take the protein it needs for its muscles and other functions when keto-adapted. A regular person on a standard diet already eats way too much protein, that's why they induce this response.
Edit: Resource:
"High-protein diets were previously shown to increase energy expenditure (EE) in healthy human volunteers (5–11). Gluconeogenesis has been hypothesized to contribute to this increased EE after a high-protein diet (5, 6, 9, 12). Although gluconeogenesis is thought to be relatively stable in humans, a high-protein diet, especially in the absence of carbohydrates, may stimulate gluconeogenesis (13). Because gluconeogenesis is an energetically costly pathway of protein metabolism with energy costs that are estimated to amount to 20% (6, 12), this process may contribute to an increased EE after a high-protein diet or after a highprotein,
carbohydrate-free diet.
"The objective was to study whether a high-protein, carbohydrate-free diet (H diet) increases gluconeogenesis and whether this can explain the increase in EE. Therefore, gluconeogenesis and EE were measured when healthy subjects consumed an H diet or a normal-protein (N) diet....
"...In conclusion, increased gluconeogenesis contributes to increased EE after consumption of an H diet for 1.5 d following a decrease in body glycogen stores. Forty-two percent of the increase in EE after the H diet was explained by an increase in gluconeogenesis. The energy cost of gluconeogenesis was 33% of the energy content of glucose."
"Gluconeogenesis and energy expenditure after a high-protein, carbohydrate-free diet"
http://www.ajcn.org/content/90/3/519.full.pdf+html0 -
if it was for people on regular diets then it isnt relevantI mean I just came across this:
http://www.ketotic.org/2012/08/if-you-eat-excess-protein-does-it-turn.htmlSummary
In sum, then, there is no evidence that we could find that consuming excess protein will increase glucose production from GNG. On the other hand, there is much suggestive evidence that it does not.
Further experiments need to be carried out to answer the question completely. In particular, we would like to see a comparison of the rate of GNG in keto-adapted dieters consuming no protein, adequate protein, or a large quantity of protein, with and without dietary fat.
And they seem to disagree with the premise that excess protein will be turned into glucose or carbs
Protein causes an insulin response almost equal to carbs. Insulin is release to get rid of sugar (glucose).https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coUlGtAqmNg
Then there is no possible way anyone can ever be in ketosis.
If you ingest food, you will always have an insulin response.
Some fats will not trigger an insulin response, but other than those select few......all other things will result the same thing.....
So you can't have your cake and eat it too on this one mate.
Because by your logic, and what you believe to be true, then no one can ever be in ketosis
That was for people who usually eat normally (i.e. they do not have the capability to use large amounts of fat as a direct energy source) . When you are carb depleted and running mainly on fat, things are different.
Edit: Your body will first take the protein it needs for its muscles and other functions when keto-adapted. A regular person on a standard diet already eats way too much protein, that's why they induce this response.
most people dont eat enough protein, not too much
if you want to be taken seriously you need to post links that arent blogs or youtube videos, try google scholar to find an actual published article0 -
I've been on a ketogenic diet for a little over 41 months now.
While I agree much of what you state may be true on a Standard Ketogenic Diet - it's not necessarily true of either a TKD (Targeted Ketogenic Diet) or CKD (Cyclical Ketogenic Diet).
BTW in ketogenesis the body isn't "desperate" for energy. That idea is laughable. One could possibly suggest desperation during a starvation experiment, but not on a ketogenic diet. That comment alone leads me to conclude your article is highly-biased.
Your references about mTOR activation do nothing to suggest that while on a hypercaloric ketogenic diet one cannot gain muscle, and in-fact loses mass. None of your reference support this. Nor does any science I've ever seen.
Once I started lifting (a little over a year into the diet) I did gain muscle - about 5 pounds in the first year - without having a clue what I was doing. But honestly, that was to be expected as I'd severely atrophied after 5 years of heavy bed-rest due to a spinal injury, and my results aren't common or replicable in the vast-majority of others.
There is no doubt that building muscle now is MUCH more difficult - but I'm certainly not losing mass. DEXA scans show a whopping 2 lb increase in lean mass over this time last year. It's not very much (barely 1% increase in lean mass), but I'm thrilled with it. It's roughly the same increase I had last year, FYI.
The ONLY way I've found to do this for myself is adopt a TKD - a targeted ketogenic diet. I time my highest carbohydrate intake to be just prior to exercise, and eat a moderate caloric surplus during my 2 bulking cycles each year. I only add about 10lbs of weight in total during each bulk as I can't afford the decreased insulin-sensitivity that comes with more added bodyfat. Doing this I *stay* ketogenic, but have the carb-intake required to push heavy (I do 5x5 three days per week) and the insulin and growth factors required to build some lean mass.
As a Type I diabetic I *have* to stay ketogenic unless I inject bolus insulin, which I prefer not to do (because I have all the insulin-resistance issues of a Type II as well.)
That's me - that's anecdotal. Now for your studies:
The studies in which ketogenic diets impaired growth in children were on epileptic children, and showed it was likely in those that ate < 80% of their recommended calories AND < 80% of their recommended daily protein intake, and was possible in those that ate protein based on the old recommendations of intake.
Further studies have shown an increase in dietary protein is warranted for epileptic children on a ketogenic diet, and most specialists recognize and prescribe that now.
The nail in the coffin on your ketogenic-diet/stunted grown argument is that epileptics that experience seizures prior to age 18 are universally statistically shorter than norm, REGARDLESS of diet. The statistics on stunted-growth are higher for those that took phenytoin prior to completing growth as well. It's not just the diet that matters, it's the disease.
There are no studies that show a ketogenic diet stunts / alters growth in non-epileptic children.
As for the references showing muscle loss:
#1 is an article, not a study, that states simply "On the other hand some less desirable immediate effects such as enhanced lean body mass loss ... have been reported. But it should be noted that this was on "low-carb" diets, not ketogenic per se, AND there are more studies show the ketogenic diet is lean-mass-sparing than show a loss.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2129159/
http://www.jissn.com/content/9/1/34
#2 is informational only and reaches no conclusions
#3 states "which MAY have an impact on the balance between anabolic and catabolic processes and subsequently influence the effectiveness of training" ... but if you read[/u[ the study (even just the abstract) it showed clearly that:
While opening up some discussion about the importance of noradrenaline in muscular development, this study does nothing to support your claims."Neither the magnitude nor the pattern of the hormonal changes were affected by L-CHO diet except the NA (noradrenaline) threshold, which was lowered ... It is concluded that restriction of CHO intake (a) does not affect the pattern of changes in plasma A, hGH, and T concentrations during graded exercise but lowers NA threshold"
#4 and #5 are again, informational and again, neither is a study. Nor do they support the claim you can't build muscle while ketogenic.
#6 is a rat study about why seizures are suppressed by the ketogenic diet. They determined:
The extrapolation of this rodent study to mean ketogenic diets cause muscle loss in humans isn't warranted or even logical.Because mTOR signaling has been implicated in epileptogenesis, these results suggest that the KD may have anticonvulsant or antiepileptogenic actions via mTOR pathway inhibition.
The last study again shows what we've known for a while, and again is on epileptic children. No scientist would automatically associate this with healthy bodybuilders, especially based on the information I provided on epilepsy and growth above.
While I appreciate that it can be difficult for some people to gain mass on a ketogenic diet - It's not impossible, nor does science reach the consensus that it promotes muscle loss. More studies show that even when hypocaloric, it is, by nature, muscle sparing. And experts like Lyle McDonald agree.
Also in counter to your claims is an excellent article with 15 scientific references here: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/can-you-build-muscle-on-a-ketogenic-diet.html
This. I believe the original post just got thoroughly mythbusted.
+1.
I have a number of friends who have degrees in Kinesiology, are certified personal trainers, follow a ketogenic diet and they are very muscular.0 -
They even state in this article that protein is prolly not the reason for not being ketosisand
http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/dr-charles-mobbs-diabetic-kidney-damage-can-actually-be-reversed-with-a-high-fat-low-carb-ketogenic-diet/10660
where the doctor states a ketogenic diet is 87% fat 8% protein and 5% carbs (this is an intense ketogenic diet).
This is a sales ad......seriously??
also here where it is stated (use CTRL F to find it) that 280 grams of protein contain 50+ grams of glycogen even without being converted:
http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/is-ketosis-dangerous
But that is the meat in animals contains 54 grams of glycogen.....
I have to wonder if that aspect would be used by the body when ingested, or if the enzymes in the stomach would send it on its marry way out the poop shoot0 -
if it was for people on regular diets then it isnt relevantI mean I just came across this:
http://www.ketotic.org/2012/08/if-you-eat-excess-protein-does-it-turn.htmlSummary
In sum, then, there is no evidence that we could find that consuming excess protein will increase glucose production from GNG. On the other hand, there is much suggestive evidence that it does not.
Further experiments need to be carried out to answer the question completely. In particular, we would like to see a comparison of the rate of GNG in keto-adapted dieters consuming no protein, adequate protein, or a large quantity of protein, with and without dietary fat.
And they seem to disagree with the premise that excess protein will be turned into glucose or carbs
Protein causes an insulin response almost equal to carbs. Insulin is release to get rid of sugar (glucose).https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coUlGtAqmNg
Then there is no possible way anyone can ever be in ketosis.
If you ingest food, you will always have an insulin response.
Some fats will not trigger an insulin response, but other than those select few......all other things will result the same thing.....
So you can't have your cake and eat it too on this one mate.
Because by your logic, and what you believe to be true, then no one can ever be in ketosis
That was for people who usually eat normally (i.e. they do not have the capability to use large amounts of fat as a direct energy source) . When you are carb depleted and running mainly on fat, things are different.
Edit: Your body will first take the protein it needs for its muscles and other functions when keto-adapted. A regular person on a standard diet already eats way too much protein, that's why they induce this response.
most people dont eat enough protein, not too much
if you want to be taken seriously you need to post links that arent blogs or youtube videos, try google scholar to find an actual published article
One of my resources was from the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. Read all my posts before you assume that my sources are all amateur blog posts.0 -
They even state in this article that protein is prolly not the reason for not being ketosisand
http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/dr-charles-mobbs-diabetic-kidney-damage-can-actually-be-reversed-with-a-high-fat-low-carb-ketogenic-diet/10660
where the doctor states a ketogenic diet is 87% fat 8% protein and 5% carbs (this is an intense ketogenic diet).
This is a sales ad......seriously??
also here where it is stated (use CTRL F to find it) that 280 grams of protein contain 50+ grams of glycogen even without being converted:
http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/is-ketosis-dangerous
But that is the meat in animals contains 54 grams of glycogen.....
I have to wonder if that aspect would be used by the body when ingested, or if the enzymes in the stomach would send it on its marry way out the poop shoot
This is not the most likely reason, as it's not as easy to eat too much protein unless you take protein supplements. Phinney and Volek in their book "The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living" recommend 0.6 - 1 gram of protein per a pound of lean mass / 1.3 - 2.2 grams of protein per a kilogram of lean mass a day (lean mass = total body weight without fat).
That was assuming you eat a balanced diet, most people into body building don't. Check the recommended protein numbers.
That was not a sales ad, just a blog post with ads on it, as it is a free website, which is irrelevant, because they information comes from the "Lead researcher Dr. Charles V. Mobbs, professor and researcher at the Fishberg Center for Neurobiology at the Mount Sinai School of Medicine in New York City"0 -
well theres your problem right there
if it was for people on regular diets then it isnt relevantI mean I just came across this:
http://www.ketotic.org/2012/08/if-you-eat-excess-protein-does-it-turn.htmlSummary
In sum, then, there is no evidence that we could find that consuming excess protein will increase glucose production from GNG. On the other hand, there is much suggestive evidence that it does not.
Further experiments need to be carried out to answer the question completely. In particular, we would like to see a comparison of the rate of GNG in keto-adapted dieters consuming no protein, adequate protein, or a large quantity of protein, with and without dietary fat.
And they seem to disagree with the premise that excess protein will be turned into glucose or carbs
Protein causes an insulin response almost equal to carbs. Insulin is release to get rid of sugar (glucose).https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coUlGtAqmNg
Then there is no possible way anyone can ever be in ketosis.
If you ingest food, you will always have an insulin response.
Some fats will not trigger an insulin response, but other than those select few......all other things will result the same thing.....
So you can't have your cake and eat it too on this one mate.
Because by your logic, and what you believe to be true, then no one can ever be in ketosis
That was for people who usually eat normally (i.e. they do not have the capability to use large amounts of fat as a direct energy source) . When you are carb depleted and running mainly on fat, things are different.
Edit: Your body will first take the protein it needs for its muscles and other functions when keto-adapted. A regular person on a standard diet already eats way too much protein, that's why they induce this response.
most people dont eat enough protein, not too much
if you want to be taken seriously you need to post links that arent blogs or youtube videos, try google scholar to find an actual published article
One of my resources was from the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. Read all my posts before you assume that my sources are all amateur blog posts.0 -
I've been on a ketogenic diet for a little over 41 months now.
While I agree much of what you state may be true on a Standard Ketogenic Diet - it's not necessarily true of either a TKD (Targeted Ketogenic Diet) or CKD (Cyclical Ketogenic Diet).
BTW in ketogenesis the body isn't "desperate" for energy. That idea is laughable. One could possibly suggest desperation during a starvation experiment, but not on a ketogenic diet. That comment alone leads me to conclude your article is highly-biased.
Your references about mTOR activation do nothing to suggest that while on a hypercaloric ketogenic diet one cannot gain muscle, and in-fact loses mass. None of your reference support this. Nor does any science I've ever seen.
Once I started lifting (a little over a year into the diet) I did gain muscle - about 5 pounds in the first year - without having a clue what I was doing. But honestly, that was to be expected as I'd severely atrophied after 5 years of heavy bed-rest due to a spinal injury, and my results aren't common or replicable in the vast-majority of others.
There is no doubt that building muscle now is MUCH more difficult - but I'm certainly not losing mass. DEXA scans show a whopping 2 lb increase in lean mass over this time last year. It's not very much (barely 1% increase in lean mass), but I'm thrilled with it. It's roughly the same increase I had last year, FYI.
The ONLY way I've found to do this for myself is adopt a TKD - a targeted ketogenic diet. I time my highest carbohydrate intake to be just prior to exercise, and eat a moderate caloric surplus during my 2 bulking cycles each year. I only add about 10lbs of weight in total during each bulk as I can't afford the decreased insulin-sensitivity that comes with more added bodyfat. Doing this I *stay* ketogenic, but have the carb-intake required to push heavy (I do 5x5 three days per week) and the insulin and growth factors required to build some lean mass.
As a Type I diabetic I *have* to stay ketogenic unless I inject bolus insulin, which I prefer not to do (because I have all the insulin-resistance issues of a Type II as well.)
That's me - that's anecdotal. Now for your studies:
The studies in which ketogenic diets impaired growth in children were on epileptic children, and showed it was likely in those that ate < 80% of their recommended calories AND < 80% of their recommended daily protein intake, and was possible in those that ate protein based on the old recommendations of intake.
Further studies have shown an increase in dietary protein is warranted for epileptic children on a ketogenic diet, and most specialists recognize and prescribe that now.
The nail in the coffin on your ketogenic-diet/stunted grown argument is that epileptics that experience seizures prior to age 18 are universally statistically shorter than norm, REGARDLESS of diet. The statistics on stunted-growth are higher for those that took phenytoin prior to completing growth as well. It's not just the diet that matters, it's the disease.
There are no studies that show a ketogenic diet stunts / alters growth in non-epileptic children.
As for the references showing muscle loss:
#1 is an article, not a study, that states simply "On the other hand some less desirable immediate effects such as enhanced lean body mass loss ... have been reported. But it should be noted that this was on "low-carb" diets, not ketogenic per se, AND there are more studies show the ketogenic diet is lean-mass-sparing than show a loss.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2129159/
http://www.jissn.com/content/9/1/34
#2 is informational only and reaches no conclusions
#3 states "which MAY have an impact on the balance between anabolic and catabolic processes and subsequently influence the effectiveness of training" ... but if you read[/u[ the study (even just the abstract) it showed clearly that:
While opening up some discussion about the importance of noradrenaline in muscular development, this study does nothing to support your claims."Neither the magnitude nor the pattern of the hormonal changes were affected by L-CHO diet except the NA (noradrenaline) threshold, which was lowered ... It is concluded that restriction of CHO intake (a) does not affect the pattern of changes in plasma A, hGH, and T concentrations during graded exercise but lowers NA threshold"
#4 and #5 are again, informational and again, neither is a study. Nor do they support the claim you can't build muscle while ketogenic.
#6 is a rat study about why seizures are suppressed by the ketogenic diet. They determined:
The extrapolation of this rodent study to mean ketogenic diets cause muscle loss in humans isn't warranted or even logical.Because mTOR signaling has been implicated in epileptogenesis, these results suggest that the KD may have anticonvulsant or antiepileptogenic actions via mTOR pathway inhibition.
The last study again shows what we've known for a while, and again is on epileptic children. No scientist would automatically associate this with healthy bodybuilders, especially based on the information I provided on epilepsy and growth above.
While I appreciate that it can be difficult for some people to gain mass on a ketogenic diet - It's not impossible, nor does science reach the consensus that it promotes muscle loss. More studies show that even when hypocaloric, it is, by nature, muscle sparing. And experts like Lyle McDonald agree.
Also in counter to your claims is an excellent article with 15 scientific references here: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/can-you-build-muscle-on-a-ketogenic-diet.html
This. I believe the original post just got thoroughly mythbusted.
+1.
I have a number of friends who have degrees in Kinesiology, are certified personal trainers, follow a ketogenic diet and they are very muscular.
Definition and actual muscle mass are two entirely different things. They may appear muscular, but that does not mean they "built" muscle mass. I am eating at a deficit and seeing definition..why? Because I had a layer of fat covering up already available muscle. I did not "build" more muscle.0 -
I've been on a ketogenic diet for a little over 41 months now.
While I agree much of what you state may be true on a Standard Ketogenic Diet - it's not necessarily true of either a TKD (Targeted Ketogenic Diet) or CKD (Cyclical Ketogenic Diet).
BTW in ketogenesis the body isn't "desperate" for energy. That idea is laughable. One could possibly suggest desperation during a starvation experiment, but not on a ketogenic diet. That comment alone leads me to conclude your article is highly-biased.
Your references about mTOR activation do nothing to suggest that while on a hypercaloric ketogenic diet one cannot gain muscle, and in-fact loses mass. None of your reference support this. Nor does any science I've ever seen.
Once I started lifting (a little over a year into the diet) I did gain muscle - about 5 pounds in the first year - without having a clue what I was doing. But honestly, that was to be expected as I'd severely atrophied after 5 years of heavy bed-rest due to a spinal injury, and my results aren't common or replicable in the vast-majority of others.
There is no doubt that building muscle now is MUCH more difficult - but I'm certainly not losing mass. DEXA scans show a whopping 2 lb increase in lean mass over this time last year. It's not very much (barely 1% increase in lean mass), but I'm thrilled with it. It's roughly the same increase I had last year, FYI.
The ONLY way I've found to do this for myself is adopt a TKD - a targeted ketogenic diet. I time my highest carbohydrate intake to be just prior to exercise, and eat a moderate caloric surplus during my 2 bulking cycles each year. I only add about 10lbs of weight in total during each bulk as I can't afford the decreased insulin-sensitivity that comes with more added bodyfat. Doing this I *stay* ketogenic, but have the carb-intake required to push heavy (I do 5x5 three days per week) and the insulin and growth factors required to build some lean mass.
As a Type I diabetic I *have* to stay ketogenic unless I inject bolus insulin, which I prefer not to do (because I have all the insulin-resistance issues of a Type II as well.)
That's me - that's anecdotal. Now for your studies:
The studies in which ketogenic diets impaired growth in children were on epileptic children, and showed it was likely in those that ate < 80% of their recommended calories AND < 80% of their recommended daily protein intake, and was possible in those that ate protein based on the old recommendations of intake.
Further studies have shown an increase in dietary protein is warranted for epileptic children on a ketogenic diet, and most specialists recognize and prescribe that now.
The nail in the coffin on your ketogenic-diet/stunted grown argument is that epileptics that experience seizures prior to age 18 are universally statistically shorter than norm, REGARDLESS of diet. The statistics on stunted-growth are higher for those that took phenytoin prior to completing growth as well. It's not just the diet that matters, it's the disease.
There are no studies that show a ketogenic diet stunts / alters growth in non-epileptic children.
As for the references showing muscle loss:
#1 is an article, not a study, that states simply "On the other hand some less desirable immediate effects such as enhanced lean body mass loss ... have been reported. But it should be noted that this was on "low-carb" diets, not ketogenic per se, AND there are more studies show the ketogenic diet is lean-mass-sparing than show a loss.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2129159/
http://www.jissn.com/content/9/1/34
#2 is informational only and reaches no conclusions
#3 states "which MAY have an impact on the balance between anabolic and catabolic processes and subsequently influence the effectiveness of training" ... but if you read[/u[ the study (even just the abstract) it showed clearly that:
While opening up some discussion about the importance of noradrenaline in muscular development, this study does nothing to support your claims."Neither the magnitude nor the pattern of the hormonal changes were affected by L-CHO diet except the NA (noradrenaline) threshold, which was lowered ... It is concluded that restriction of CHO intake (a) does not affect the pattern of changes in plasma A, hGH, and T concentrations during graded exercise but lowers NA threshold"
#4 and #5 are again, informational and again, neither is a study. Nor do they support the claim you can't build muscle while ketogenic.
#6 is a rat study about why seizures are suppressed by the ketogenic diet. They determined:
The extrapolation of this rodent study to mean ketogenic diets cause muscle loss in humans isn't warranted or even logical.Because mTOR signaling has been implicated in epileptogenesis, these results suggest that the KD may have anticonvulsant or antiepileptogenic actions via mTOR pathway inhibition.
The last study again shows what we've known for a while, and again is on epileptic children. No scientist would automatically associate this with healthy bodybuilders, especially based on the information I provided on epilepsy and growth above.
While I appreciate that it can be difficult for some people to gain mass on a ketogenic diet - It's not impossible, nor does science reach the consensus that it promotes muscle loss. More studies show that even when hypocaloric, it is, by nature, muscle sparing. And experts like Lyle McDonald agree.
Also in counter to your claims is an excellent article with 15 scientific references here: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/can-you-build-muscle-on-a-ketogenic-diet.html
This. I believe the original post just got thoroughly mythbusted.
+1.
I have a number of friends who have degrees in Kinesiology, are certified personal trainers, follow a ketogenic diet and they are very muscular.
Definition and actual muscle mass are two entirely different things. They may appear muscular, but that does not mean they "built" muscle mass. I am eating at a deficit and seeing definition..why? Because I had a layer of fat covering up already available muscle. I did not "build" more muscle.
My thought as well.....
Let's not mix the two that we are talking of here.0 -
This is not the most likely reason, as it's not as easy to eat too much protein unless you take protein supplements. Phinney and Volek in their book "The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living" recommend 0.6 - 1 gram of protein per a pound of lean mass / 1.3 - 2.2 grams of protein per a kilogram of lean mass a day (lean mass = total body weight without fat).
That was assuming you eat a balanced diet, most people into body building don't. Check the recommended protein numbers.
That was not a sales ad, just a blog post with ads on it, as it is a free website, which is irrelevant, because they information comes from the "Lead researcher Dr. Charles V. Mobbs, professor and researcher at the Fishberg Center for Neurobiology at the Mount Sinai School of Medicine in New York City"
But your premise earlier was that if insulin is produced in the body, then you are not in ketosis.
I am saying that no matter what you eat, your body always produces an insulin response.
Except when certain fats are ingested.0 -
I've been on a ketogenic diet for a little over 41 months now.
While I agree much of what you state may be true on a Standard Ketogenic Diet - it's not necessarily true of either a TKD (Targeted Ketogenic Diet) or CKD (Cyclical Ketogenic Diet).
BTW in ketogenesis the body isn't "desperate" for energy. That idea is laughable. One could possibly suggest desperation during a starvation experiment, but not on a ketogenic diet. That comment alone leads me to conclude your article is highly-biased.
Your references about mTOR activation do nothing to suggest that while on a hypercaloric ketogenic diet one cannot gain muscle, and in-fact loses mass. None of your reference support this. Nor does any science I've ever seen.
Once I started lifting (a little over a year into the diet) I did gain muscle - about 5 pounds in the first year - without having a clue what I was doing. But honestly, that was to be expected as I'd severely atrophied after 5 years of heavy bed-rest due to a spinal injury, and my results aren't common or replicable in the vast-majority of others.
There is no doubt that building muscle now is MUCH more difficult - but I'm certainly not losing mass. DEXA scans show a whopping 2 lb increase in lean mass over this time last year. It's not very much (barely 1% increase in lean mass), but I'm thrilled with it. It's roughly the same increase I had last year, FYI.
The ONLY way I've found to do this for myself is adopt a TKD - a targeted ketogenic diet. I time my highest carbohydrate intake to be just prior to exercise, and eat a moderate caloric surplus during my 2 bulking cycles each year. I only add about 10lbs of weight in total during each bulk as I can't afford the decreased insulin-sensitivity that comes with more added bodyfat. Doing this I *stay* ketogenic, but have the carb-intake required to push heavy (I do 5x5 three days per week) and the insulin and growth factors required to build some lean mass.
As a Type I diabetic I *have* to stay ketogenic unless I inject bolus insulin, which I prefer not to do (because I have all the insulin-resistance issues of a Type II as well.)
That's me - that's anecdotal. Now for your studies:
The studies in which ketogenic diets impaired growth in children were on epileptic children, and showed it was likely in those that ate < 80% of their recommended calories AND < 80% of their recommended daily protein intake, and was possible in those that ate protein based on the old recommendations of intake.
Further studies have shown an increase in dietary protein is warranted for epileptic children on a ketogenic diet, and most specialists recognize and prescribe that now.
The nail in the coffin on your ketogenic-diet/stunted grown argument is that epileptics that experience seizures prior to age 18 are universally statistically shorter than norm, REGARDLESS of diet. The statistics on stunted-growth are higher for those that took phenytoin prior to completing growth as well. It's not just the diet that matters, it's the disease.
There are no studies that show a ketogenic diet stunts / alters growth in non-epileptic children.
As for the references showing muscle loss:
#1 is an article, not a study, that states simply "On the other hand some less desirable immediate effects such as enhanced lean body mass loss ... have been reported. But it should be noted that this was on "low-carb" diets, not ketogenic per se, AND there are more studies show the ketogenic diet is lean-mass-sparing than show a loss.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2129159/
http://www.jissn.com/content/9/1/34
#2 is informational only and reaches no conclusions
#3 states "which MAY have an impact on the balance between anabolic and catabolic processes and subsequently influence the effectiveness of training" ... but if you read[/u[ the study (even just the abstract) it showed clearly that:
While opening up some discussion about the importance of noradrenaline in muscular development, this study does nothing to support your claims."Neither the magnitude nor the pattern of the hormonal changes were affected by L-CHO diet except the NA (noradrenaline) threshold, which was lowered ... It is concluded that restriction of CHO intake (a) does not affect the pattern of changes in plasma A, hGH, and T concentrations during graded exercise but lowers NA threshold"
#4 and #5 are again, informational and again, neither is a study. Nor do they support the claim you can't build muscle while ketogenic.
#6 is a rat study about why seizures are suppressed by the ketogenic diet. They determined:
The extrapolation of this rodent study to mean ketogenic diets cause muscle loss in humans isn't warranted or even logical.Because mTOR signaling has been implicated in epileptogenesis, these results suggest that the KD may have anticonvulsant or antiepileptogenic actions via mTOR pathway inhibition.
The last study again shows what we've known for a while, and again is on epileptic children. No scientist would automatically associate this with healthy bodybuilders, especially based on the information I provided on epilepsy and growth above.
While I appreciate that it can be difficult for some people to gain mass on a ketogenic diet - It's not impossible, nor does science reach the consensus that it promotes muscle loss. More studies show that even when hypocaloric, it is, by nature, muscle sparing. And experts like Lyle McDonald agree.
Also in counter to your claims is an excellent article with 15 scientific references here: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/can-you-build-muscle-on-a-ketogenic-diet.html
This. I believe the original post just got thoroughly mythbusted.
+1.
I have a number of friends who have degrees in Kinesiology, are certified personal trainers, follow a ketogenic diet and they are very muscular.
Definition and actual muscle mass are two entirely different things. They may appear muscular, but that does not mean they "built" muscle mass. I am eating at a deficit and seeing definition..why? Because I had a layer of fat covering up already available muscle. I did not "build" more muscle.
My thought as well.....
Let's not mix the two that we are talking of here.
oookaay *sigh
0 -
So you are suggesting that I never entered ketosis yet I lost 50lbs in 3 months eating on average 4,000 calories a day? And as much as 10,000 calories on my carb nite? My friend, there is only one explanation for that fat loss and it is ketosis.0
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oookaay *sigh
So you are saying that muscle mass and muscular strength are the same???0 -
This is not the most likely reason, as it's not as easy to eat too much protein unless you take protein supplements. Phinney and Volek in their book "The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living" recommend 0.6 - 1 gram of protein per a pound of lean mass / 1.3 - 2.2 grams of protein per a kilogram of lean mass a day (lean mass = total body weight without fat).
That was assuming you eat a balanced diet, most people into body building don't. Check the recommended protein numbers.
That was not a sales ad, just a blog post with ads on it, as it is a free website, which is irrelevant, because they information comes from the "Lead researcher Dr. Charles V. Mobbs, professor and researcher at the Fishberg Center for Neurobiology at the Mount Sinai School of Medicine in New York City"
But your premise earlier was that if insulin is produced in the body, then you are not in ketosis.
I am saying that no matter what you eat, your body always produces an insulin response.
Except when certain fats are ingested.
??? No. You are twisting my words. My only statement was that too much excess protein (above what your body needs) will kick you out of ketosis, because they are converted to glucose!
I only mentioned the insulin response, because excess protein causes an insulin response just like carbs, whereas most fats do not.
Fats do not produce an insulin response (except when eaten with ample amounts of other foods, and even then it only slightly adds to the insulin response from carbs).
A miniscule insulin response to get rid of 20 grams of sugar over the course of the day will not kick you out of ketosis. A large insulin response to get rid of 100 grams of sugar caused by 50 grams of carbs and say 50 grams of glucose converted from excess protein, WILL kick you out of ketosis.0 -
oookaay *sigh
So you are saying that muscle mass and muscular strength are the same???
Not at all! I was agreeing with you that it was a subject better left for another time. That mixing the two would cause chaos..that's my you are right gif..LOL :flowerforyou:0 -
Definition and actual muscle mass are two entirely different things. They may appear muscular, but that does not mean they "built" muscle mass. I am eating at a deficit and seeing definition..why? Because I had a layer of fat covering up already available muscle. I did not "build" more muscle.
There are plenty of bodybuilders out there that follow a TKD and have put on plenty of mass doing so. Is it optimal compared to a diet that includes more carbs? Hard to say, but I'd probably wager they could add mass faster on a non-keto bulk. But the fact remains that there are plenty of people using TKD/CKD diets to recomp/lean bulk and adding muscle mass in the process.
You can debate what's optimal, but the notion that it's impossible to add muscle on a keto diet is nonsense.0 -
So you are suggesting that I never entered ketosis yet I lost 50lbs in 3 months eating on average 4,000 calories a day? And as much as 10,000 calories on my carb nite? My friend, there is only one explanation for that fat loss and it is ketosis.
Are you suggesting that you lost 50lbs eating at a caloric surplus? Keto doesn't mean eat everything you want as long as your carbs are low, you still have to eat at a deficit to lose. That's why it works for a lot of people, because they can eat foods that satisfy them with less calories.0 -
oookaay *sigh
So you are saying that muscle mass and muscular strength are the same???
Not at all! I was agreeing with you that it was a subject better left for another time. That mixing the two would cause chaos..that's my you are right gif..LOL :flowerforyou:
Ah, ok0 -
So you are suggesting that I never entered ketosis yet I lost 50lbs in 3 months eating on average 4,000 calories a day? And as much as 10,000 calories on my carb nite? My friend, there is only one explanation for that fat loss and it is ketosis.
For people who have large body fat percentages and high lean body fat mass and do extensive power lifting, cleaning up a diet will result in weight loss.
10,000 calories cannot be stored in one day anyway.
How much were you eating before you lost the 50 lbs? 6000 calories daily?
Edit: Also, how often did you do the carb night? Once a week? If so, then it simply reset your leptin to optimal levels, allowing you to burn fat at full speed.0 -
So you are suggesting that I never entered ketosis yet I lost 50lbs in 3 months eating on average 4,000 calories a day? And as much as 10,000 calories on my carb nite? My friend, there is only one explanation for that fat loss and it is ketosis.
For people who have large body fat percentages and high lean body fat mass and do extensive power lifting, cleaning up a diet will result in weight loss.
10,000 calories cannot be stored in one day anyway.
How much were you eating before you lost the 50 lbs? 6000 calories daily?
He also said he lost 20lbs of muscle in that 50lbs... which resulted in lower lifts, hence his bailing on the idea. Which of course, is fine- if the method interferes with your goals, don't use it.0 -
So you are suggesting that I never entered ketosis yet I lost 50lbs in 3 months eating on average 4,000 calories a day? And as much as 10,000 calories on my carb nite? My friend, there is only one explanation for that fat loss and it is ketosis.
For people who have large body fat percentages and high lean body fat mass and do extensive power lifting, cleaning up a diet will result in weight loss.
10,000 calories cannot be stored in one day anyway.
How much were you eating before you lost the 50 lbs? 6000 calories daily?
He also said he lost 20lbs of muscle in that 50lbs... which resulted in lower lifts, hence his bailing on the idea. Which of course, is fine- if the method interferes with your goals, don't use it.
He only said he was pretty sure that 20 lbs of it was muscle. He has no idea, in fact. In cases like this, people should be getting an inbody analysis.0 -
Definition and actual muscle mass are two entirely different things. They may appear muscular, but that does not mean they "built" muscle mass. I am eating at a deficit and seeing definition..why? Because I had a layer of fat covering up already available muscle. I did not "build" more muscle.
There are plenty of bodybuilders out there that follow a TKD and have put on plenty of mass doing so. Is it optimal compared to a diet that includes more carbs? Hard to say, but I'd probably wager they could add mass faster on a non-keto bulk. But the fact remains that there are plenty of people using TKD/CKD diets to recomp/lean bulk and adding muscle mass in the process.
You can debate what's optimal, but the notion that it's impossible to add muscle on a keto diet is nonsense.
I at no point said it was impossible, just that you can't judge their muscle mass gains by muscle definition or the fact that they "look" all muscular.0 -
So you are suggesting that I never entered ketosis yet I lost 50lbs in 3 months eating on average 4,000 calories a day? And as much as 10,000 calories on my carb nite? My friend, there is only one explanation for that fat loss and it is ketosis.
That's right, you never entered ketosis. Eating 250-300 g of protein a day most certainly stimulated an insulin response. When an insulin response is stimulated, that means you were never in ketosis.
Calories in<calories out= fat loss.0 -
??? No. You are twisting my words. My only statement was that too much excess protein (above what your body needs) will kick you out of ketosis, because they are converted to glucose!
I only mentioned the insulin response, because excess protein causes an insulin response just like carbs, whereas most fats do not.
Fats do not produce an insulin response (except when eaten with ample amounts of other foods, and even then it only slightly adds to the insulin response from carbs).
A miniscule insulin response to get rid of 20 grams of sugar over the course of the day will not kick you out of ketosis. A large insulin response to get rid of 100 grams of sugar caused by 50 grams of carbs and say 50 grams of glucose converted from excess protein, WILL kick you out of ketosis.
Here's the thing. You're right in that a keto diet is typically not a high protein diet, but you have to keep in mind that when Loft said he's eating 250g of protein/day, he's also saying he's at 250 pounds of lean mass (which is ridiculously high). Your protein needs are determined based on your lean body mass and with that much lean mass, he's eating a moderate amount of protein for someone who's doing resistance training. If he had 125 pounds of lean mass, I'd agree he's probably not in ketosis at 250g of protein, but that's simply not the case. Also, having a "carb night" doesn't mean he wasn't following a ketogenic diet; that's precisely what you do on a CKD. In short, it's improper to conclusively state he wasn't in ketosis during this time.0 -
So you are suggesting that I never entered ketosis yet I lost 50lbs in 3 months eating on average 4,000 calories a day? And as much as 10,000 calories on my carb nite? My friend, there is only one explanation for that fat loss and it is ketosis.
For people who have large body fat percentages and high lean body fat mass and do extensive power lifting, cleaning up a diet will result in weight loss.
10,000 calories cannot be stored in one day anyway.
How much were you eating before you lost the 50 lbs? 6000 calories daily?
He also said he lost 20lbs of muscle in that 50lbs... which resulted in lower lifts, hence his bailing on the idea. Which of course, is fine- if the method interferes with your goals, don't use it.
He only said he was pretty sure that 20 lbs of it was muscle. He has no idea, in fact. In cases like this, people should be getting an inbody analysis.
Exactly. Unless he had hydrostatic testing done, I call BS. I'd also love to know how he determined he was 23% BF even though he is 337 lbs.0 -
??? No. You are twisting my words. My only statement was that too much excess protein (above what your body needs) will kick you out of ketosis, because they are converted to glucose!
I only mentioned the insulin response, because excess protein causes an insulin response just like carbs, whereas most fats do not.
Fats do not produce an insulin response (except when eaten with ample amounts of other foods, and even then it only slightly adds to the insulin response from carbs).
A miniscule insulin response to get rid of 20 grams of sugar over the course of the day will not kick you out of ketosis. A large insulin response to get rid of 100 grams of sugar caused by 50 grams of carbs and say 50 grams of glucose converted from excess protein, WILL kick you out of ketosis.
Here's the thing. You're right in that a keto diet is typically not a high protein diet, but you have to keep in mind that when Loft said he's eating 250g of protein/day, he's also saying he's at 250 pounds of lean mass (which is ridiculously high). Your protein needs are determined based on your lean body mass and with that much lean mass, he's eating a moderate amount of protein for someone who's doing resistance training. If he had 125 pounds of lean mass, I'd agree he's probably not in ketosis at 250g of protein, but that's simply not the case. Also, having a "carb night" doesn't mean he wasn't following a ketogenic diet; that's precisely what you do on a CKD. In short, it's improper to conclusively state he wasn't in ketosis during this time.
Hmmm. I see you're point, but I still think that even with 250 lbs of lean mass, he would only need around 125 grams of protein, up to 150 max. Depends of course, on how often he does his powerlifting. But that aside, I've actually figured out why Lofteren probably lost so much strength! I nearly forgot about this but:
Lofteren, this info is for you: Deep Ketosis where your body is fully adapted to the changes requires 4-6 weeks of constant high fat, moderate protein, and low carb. If you are refueling your carbs, you are constantly interrupting your body's attempt to become keto-adapted! The Keto-adaptation process can be seriously harsh for some people, which is why I opted to be inactive for 3 weeks (I've done ketogenic diets before that's why I didn't wait 6 weeks). Your body has to build the "machinery" capable of converting fat into ketones. During this transition phase, it is obvious that anyone will be weakened! Your old strength would return after 4-6 weeks of a CONSTANT proper ketogenic diet, i.e. NO CARB refeeds. Once you have been on the ketogenic diet for a year... occasionally breaking ketosis with some carbs will not be a problem as long as you go back to eating ketogenic for the majority of the time, as the body can switch back into ketosis easily.
Also, I believe that maintaining your strength while cutting your fat percentage would be extremely beneficial to you both physically and psychologically. I am no master of muscle mass building, but I highly recommend you give it a second shot, but this time, do it right.0 -
Great topic to post Ninerbuff.
And what a fantastic rebuttal post from Albertabeefy!
And kanifers posts?
My take away is:
Does ketogenic diets build muscle - yes
Is it the most optimal way to do it - probably not.0
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