Ketogenic diets DON'T build muscle

parkscs

No diet in and of itself builds muscle, so the topic name is a bit odd to me. If you're suggesting that it's impossible to build muscle on a ketogenic diet, I think there's plenty of evidence to contradict such a statement. And if you look into studies on the retention of lean body mass between keto and non-keto diets, the best you can conclude is that the results are mixed and don't present clear answer. Some studies show keto being more sparing of LBM than non-keto diets while other studies show the opposite. In my opinion, the best you can conclude from the evidence that's out there is that different people respond differently to different diets.

Now, is a ketogenic diet optimal for building muscle? I'm not sure there's a lot of evidence out there on the topic but I'd probably guess not. But then again people typically use ketogenic diets for cutting rather than bulking, and so building muscle is not really on the table anyways. Where I do see people using keto diets to add some muscle is in more of a recomp/very lean bulk, where they report making steady progress while staying lean.

Lyle's book on the subject is a good place to start reading. The answer isn't as black and white as the OP's article lets on though.

SezxyStef

No, I'm weak because I've only been working out for 2 months, however, I do my research. Since my deadlift went from 198 to 286 in only 2 months, I say I'm doing pretty well for myself.

your deadlift increase due to noob gains dude, not keto.
i dont know much about keto but someone who just started lifting is going to make strength gains in their first few months no matter what their diet is

This guy doesn't even follow a keto diet he does HCG and thinks his 500 a day calorie consumption is enough...

Oh and he believes that he was consuming 2000 even though he was eating 500...the rest came from his fat stores...so he considers is not to be a VLCD...

Thoth8

Lol, MrM27 and SezxyStef, get a life xD

None of your replies have anything to do with my posts.

they have everything to do with your posts....
resulting in telling someone to get a life just shows you have no counter arguments

I'm talking about ketosis that can be maintained long-term, and these guys are talking about a temporary diet I am on for personal reasons which have nothing to do with this post.

Edit: Ignored them now anyway.

iPlatano

250-300g of protein? Unless you have 500 pounds of LEAN BODY WEIGHT, that is way too much protein. Excess protein gets converted into carbs by the liver, so if you were eating that much protein while doing your so-called ketogenic diet, then you were never in ketosis. Supposing you have 250 pounds of lean body weight, you would only need something like 115-130 grams of protein, depending on workout intensity. And you say something about carb nite? MORE Carbs, there is nothing ketogenic about that. You did not lose muscle mass on a proper ketogenic diet, you lost it on a messed up too many carbs and protein diet, which explains everything.

Yeah I know. I training for bodybuilding only but now I just started and power-lifting/bodybuilding program like 3 month ago. Im progressing slowly because of the bodybuilding days but Im with that!
Edit. Ketosis requires you to be UNDER 50 carbs a day. Since excess protein gets converted into glucose (carbs), you can never get into ketosis on the diet you mentioned. Ketosis requires a HIGH SATURATED FAT, medium protein, low carb diet.

Edit 2: Saturated fat has cholesterol, which is required to make sex hormones involved in muscle mass like say... TESTOSTERONE!

You seriously just suggested that a powerlifter with 250lbs of lean body mass only needs 115-130lbs of protein a day??? NO wonder you're weak.

Edit: I'd also like to point something out here. This thread is about building muscle on a ketogenic diet. Why would anyone listen to man with a sub 300lb deadlift when it comes to building muscle?

The same people who ask a hobo how to get rich, that's who.

Well Im 164lbs 8% body fat.
8x2 =16 pound of fat inside my body which means 164-16=148g of protein per day is ideal for me.
And no Im not that weak. I can bench 165x5 and squat 200x5. I could do more while bulking but I just finished cutting and Im gonna lean bulk from now on.

You have to know your body fat so you dont stuff your face with protein and save money.

I agree with this. At 165 140-150g of protein a day is sufficient but I am 337lbs @ 23% bf so my lean body mass is approximately 260lbs. 250-300 is appropriate at this size because as you get bigger and stronger, getting bigger and stronger becomes more and more difficult. Because of this it becomes more necessary to build a 100% anabolic environment if you wish to continue progressing. Having a 165x5 bench press and a 200x5 squat isn't the worst in the world but, in the scope of strength, that still is really, really low so you have a lot more leeway. In short, you aren't very adapted so adapting further isn't difficult. Since you are at such a low bodyweight you'll probably hit a double bodyweight squat and 1.5x bodyweight bench before you start experiencing diminishing returns (these are ballpark figures, of course).

Yeah I know. Im progressing slowly because I started a bodybuilding hypertrophy program like 2 month ago. I know the progress Im making will be slower since Im training for both but Im ok with that!

Thoth8

Lol, MrM27 and SezxyStef, get a life xD

None of your replies have anything to do with my posts.

they have everything to do with your posts....
resulting in telling someone to get a life just shows you have no counter arguments

also i just took a look at your diary... isnt the point of keto to be low carb? like 40% of your macros have been carbs on most days so i would bet your not in a state of ketosis

Ketosis occurs naturally when you go under 50 carbs. Mine appear to be higher because the fiber from the shake counts as a carb on MFP but not nutritionally.

Edit: My current diet is not a conventional ketosis and has nothing to do with what I am talking about. I will be doing the regular ketogenic diet in about 3 weeks.

Lofteren

Lol, MrM27 and SezxyStef, get a life xD

None of your replies have anything to do with my posts.

they have everything to do with your posts....
resulting in telling someone to get a life just shows you have no counter arguments

also i just took a look at your diary... isnt the point of keto to be low carb? like 40% of your macros have been carbs on most days so i would bet your not in a state of ketosis

Ketosis occurs naturally when you go under 50 carbs. Mine appear to be higher because the fiber from the shake counts as a carb on MFP but not nutritionally.

Edit: My current diet is not a conventional ketosis and has nothing to do with what I am talking about. I will be doing the regular ketogenic diet in about 3 weeks.

Alright, brother. Come back in a year and show us how jacked, ripped and strong you AREN'T.

As long as you maintain this "I read a pamphlet, therefore I know EVERYTHING" attitude you will go nowhere. There are more experienced lifters and dieters in here trying to correct you and your replies are consistently that you know everything about this and we're all wrong.

weightabllodyminute

Nice.


Also, in for the inevitable shenanigans.

Last time I mentioned it without the article, ketogenic followers were insisting they were building muscle while on a ketogenic surplus. With the article, I don't expect too much debating about it now.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Don't count on it this is MFP.............where everyone gains muscle and loses fat at the same time and people get huge muscular thighs from just cardio

This seriously made me laugh my *kitten* off.

I did a ketogenic diet for a while and lost 50lbs. I'm pretty sure about 20 of it was muscle. My deadlift went from 661 to 565 in 3 months. Needless to say, I quit the keto diet.

Would a strength athletes maximum lift not be impacted by a 50lb loss no matter how you did it. Factors such as reduction in leverage by the reduction in mass and the old "belly bump" squats as my former rugby coach used to call them allow one to shift increased weights. If he saw me now he would kick my fat *kitten* up and down the gym. Oh well at least I have started on the weight loss trail

danimalkeys

Any time you are a caloric deficit, no matter what diet plan you follow, you are going to lose some muscle mass and lose some strength. You can limit that loss for sure, but it's very difficult to prevent it from happening. Hence the bulk/cut cycles people use.

Can you make muscle gains on a ketogenic diet? Absolutely- eat at a surplus, just like any other eating plan to gain mass.

Also, a 28 year old man training as a powerlifter who has been eating at a surplus to build muscle that will help increase strength is pretty much at the peak of their strength gaining years. You can't compare that to an older person eating at a deficit (or, an older person eating at a surplus, because pretty much after 40, your ability to maximize strength and size gains is far less than a younger man), or a newb lifter who can only deadlift 280 something. So to me, the "I'm bigger and stronger than you, so I know more" argument holds little merit. And to me, a 150/160lb lifter who is pulling 300 is just as impressive as a near 340lb lifter pulling 600+. .

I agree on the ceiling of ability idea. New trainers will gain a lot on their lifts simply because of neural adaptation. Once those gains are exhausted, it becomes increasingly difficult to add big chunks to your lifts. I remember struggling for months at one point to gain 5lbs on my bench. Diet, training, examining and working on weak points of the lift- it got very frustrating!

Before my opinion is discounted, I've been there before. I've done many competitions in the past and have moved some pretty good weight, for my age/weight group.

Thoth8

Lol, MrM27 and SezxyStef, get a life xD

None of your replies have anything to do with my posts.

they have everything to do with your posts....
resulting in telling someone to get a life just shows you have no counter arguments

also i just took a look at your diary... isnt the point of keto to be low carb? like 40% of your macros have been carbs on most days so i would bet your not in a state of ketosis

Ketosis occurs naturally when you go under 50 carbs. Mine appear to be higher because the fiber from the shake counts as a carb on MFP but not nutritionally.

Edit: My current diet is not a conventional ketosis and has nothing to do with what I am talking about. I will be doing the regular ketogenic diet in about 3 weeks.

Alright, brother. Come back in a year and show us how jacked, ripped and strong you AREN'T.

As long as you maintain this "I read a pamphlet, therefore I know EVERYTHING" attitude you will go nowhere. There are more experienced lifters and dieters in here trying to correct you and your replies are consistently that you know everything about this and we're all wrong.

Nah, I don't know everything. But your diet clearly showed you were not in ketosis. And I did not read "a pamphlet" to get my knowledge on ketosis, I watched 20+ hours worth of videos from fitness and nutrition experts, as well as read a 500 page book on the scientific effects of ketosis, as well as countless articles over the years. It is easy to eat ketogenic, but you simply never ate ketogenic. My only beef with your post is that you attributed your strength loss to the ketogenic diet when you did not even slightly come close to doing anything ketogenic.

Thoth8

Any time you are a caloric deficit, no matter what diet plan you follow, you are going to lose some muscle mass and lose some strength. You can limit that loss for sure, but it's very difficult to prevent it from happening. Hence the bulk/cut cycles people use.

Can you make muscle gains on a ketogenic diet? Absolutely- eat at a surplus, just like any other eating plan to gain mass.

Also, a 28 year old man training as a powerlifter who has been eating at a surplus to build muscle that will help increase strength is pretty much at the peak of their strength gaining years. You can't compare that to an older person eating at a deficit (or, an older person eating at a surplus, because pretty much after 40, your ability to maximize strength and size gains is far less than a younger man), or a newb lifter who can only deadlift 280 something. So to me, the "I'm bigger and stronger than you, so I know more" argument holds little merit. And to me, a 150/160lb lifter who is pulling 300 is just as impressive as a near 340lb lifter pulling 600+. .

I agree on the ceiling of ability idea. New trainers will gain a lot on their lifts simply because of neural adaptation. Once those gains are exhausted, it becomes increasingly difficult to add big chunks to your lifts. I remember struggling for months at one point to gain 5lbs on my bench. Diet, training, examining and working on weak points of the lift- it got very frustrating!

Before my opinion is discounted, I've been there before. I've done many competitions in the past and have moved some pretty good weight, for my age/weight group.

I was actually on a severe deficit and maintained my exact same strength! If I was eating regular calories, I would have gained a lot of strength. I only have around 155 lbs of lean body mass. (25% body fat atm) When I go into a regular ketogenic diet, the fun will begin! Indeed, someone older will probably not be working with the same "equipment". :-)

Edit: Speaking of older, have you heard of Jack Lalanne? He was a beast...pulling 70 boats with 70 people on them, handcuffed and shackled fighting strong winds and currents for 1.5 miles... he was 70 years old at the time. Don't knock old people!

MityMax96

250-300g of protein? Unless you have 500 pounds of LEAN BODY WEIGHT, that is way too much protein. Excess protein gets converted into carbs by the liver, so if you were eating that much protein while doing your so-called ketogenic diet, then you were never in ketosis. Supposing you have 250 pounds of lean body weight, you would only need something like 115-130 grams of protein, depending on workout intensity. And you say something about carb nite? MORE Carbs, there is nothing ketogenic about that. You did not lose muscle mass on a proper ketogenic diet, you lost it on a messed up too many carbs and protein diet, which explains everything.

Edit. Ketosis requires you to be UNDER 50 carbs a day. Since excess protein gets converted into glucose (carbs), you can never get into ketosis on the diet you mentioned. Ketosis requires a HIGH SATURATED FAT, medium protein, low carb diet.

Edit 2: Saturated fat has cholesterol, which is required to make sex hormones involved in muscle mass like say... TESTOSTERONE!

Can you please provide a resource on this??
As I have not read that

Thoth8

250-300g of protein? Unless you have 500 pounds of LEAN BODY WEIGHT, that is way too much protein. Excess protein gets converted into carbs by the liver, so if you were eating that much protein while doing your so-called ketogenic diet, then you were never in ketosis. Supposing you have 250 pounds of lean body weight, you would only need something like 115-130 grams of protein, depending on workout intensity. And you say something about carb nite? MORE Carbs, there is nothing ketogenic about that. You did not lose muscle mass on a proper ketogenic diet, you lost it on a messed up too many carbs and protein diet, which explains everything.

Edit. Ketosis requires you to be UNDER 50 carbs a day. Since excess protein gets converted into glucose (carbs), you can never get into ketosis on the diet you mentioned. Ketosis requires a HIGH SATURATED FAT, medium protein, low carb diet.

Edit 2: Saturated fat has cholesterol, which is required to make sex hormones involved in muscle mass like say... TESTOSTERONE!

Can you please provide a resource on this??
As I have not read that

Sure, what part do you need a resource on? This is mixed information, I didn't get it all from one place.

MityMax96

250-300g of protein? Unless you have 500 pounds of LEAN BODY WEIGHT, that is way too much protein. Excess protein gets converted into carbs by the liver, so if you were eating that much protein while doing your so-called ketogenic diet, then you were never in ketosis. Supposing you have 250 pounds of lean body weight, you would only need something like 115-130 grams of protein, depending on workout intensity. And you say something about carb nite? MORE Carbs, there is nothing ketogenic about that. You did not lose muscle mass on a proper ketogenic diet, you lost it on a messed up too many carbs and protein diet, which explains everything.

Edit. Ketosis requires you to be UNDER 50 carbs a day. Since excess protein gets converted into glucose (carbs), you can never get into ketosis on the diet you mentioned. Ketosis requires a HIGH SATURATED FAT, medium protein, low carb diet.

Edit 2: Saturated fat has cholesterol, which is required to make sex hormones involved in muscle mass like say... TESTOSTERONE!

Can you please provide a resource on this??
As I have not read that

Sure, what part do you need a resource on? This is mixed information, I didn't get it all from one place.

How the body starts turning protein into carbs??
At what point does that happen??

MityMax96

I mean I just came across this:
http://www.ketotic.org/2012/08/if-you-eat-excess-protein-does-it-turn.html

Summary

In sum, then, there is no evidence that we could find that consuming excess protein will increase glucose production from GNG. On the other hand, there is much suggestive evidence that it does not.

Further experiments need to be carried out to answer the question completely. In particular, we would like to see a comparison of the rate of GNG in keto-adapted dieters consuming no protein, adequate protein, or a large quantity of protein, with and without dietary fat.

And they seem to disagree with the premise that excess protein will be turned into glucose or carbs

ndj1979

in to track this thread...

I see we are already heading for a level four derailment..

Mrsbeale11

Lol, MrM27 and SezxyStef, get a life xD

None of your replies have anything to do with my posts.

^ Not cool

Thoth8

I mean I just came across this:
http://www.ketotic.org/2012/08/if-you-eat-excess-protein-does-it-turn.html

Summary

In sum, then, there is no evidence that we could find that consuming excess protein will increase glucose production from GNG. On the other hand, there is much suggestive evidence that it does not.

Further experiments need to be carried out to answer the question completely. In particular, we would like to see a comparison of the rate of GNG in keto-adapted dieters consuming no protein, adequate protein, or a large quantity of protein, with and without dietary fat.

And they seem to disagree with the premise that excess protein will be turned into glucose or carbs

Protein causes an insulin response almost equal to carbs. Insulin is release to get rid of sugar (glucose).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coUlGtAqmNg