Ketogenic diets DON'T build muscle

Lofteren

Then you were doing something wrong. My deadlift stayed the same after 3 weeks of 500 cal daily intake ketosis. :-)

Edit: That's after 3 weeks of inactivity.

HAHAHAHA! So, you eat 500 calories a day with no carbs for 3 weeks and don't train the whole time and I'M the one who did something wrong? You're a funny guy

Thoth8

I'd also like to point out that initial so-called muscle mass losses on a ketogenic diet are actually usually just stored glycogen and water that are retained in the muscles. A larger person will tend to retain a lot more glycogen. Since glycogen is hydrophillic, it also absorbs water! (Up to twice to four times its weight in water) So the muscles actual protein mass never decreases, just the stored water and glycogen. If you are on any standard diet that has you eating 100+ carbs a day, especially if you are trying to gain muscle, therefore, eating more calories than you need, then you are going to be retaining a lot of glycogen and water in your muscles, which btw do not affect muscular performance in any feasible way. I know this, because I still have the same max deadlift after 3 weeks of inactivity after going into ketosis. Before ketosis I was on a high calorie high carb diet, and lifted the exact same max rep. It cannot be neural adaptation because I did nothing after that while going into ketosis.

I am going to go ahead and make an assumption here. Seeing as how your deadlift is exactly the same, I doubt that it's a very heavy pull. If you were really strong and then went into ketosis and didn't train for 3 weeks your deadlift would have definitely gone down since your body is no longer in a state to support that amount of strength. If you had an unimpressive deadlift to begin with; however, you wouldn't face this issue as abruptly. Furthermore, since it is likely that you aren't particularly strong, you probably haven't learned how to grind through a rep to find your true 1RM which makes gauging your performance on a 1RM deadlift inaccurate. So, just out of curiosity, how much can you deadlift?

I am not as strong as you, that is correct. However, a 1RM is a 1RM regardless of how strong or weak you are. My 1RM is 286 lbs. I go through a warm up set, and 3-4 acclimation sets, before I reach 286. I can only lift it once. A second rep is completely impossible for me at the moment, whereas I can do 264 for 2 reps, a third is impossible. So I can assure you that my 1RM is a legitimate 1RM, and it doesn't matter how strong or weak you are. What matters is how you set up your workout, what you are eating, how you are eating, do you eat right after or right before your workouts, are you sleeping enough, are your bones getting the support they need, etc. Everyone has a different set of strength.

albertabeefy

Then you were doing something wrong. My deadlift stayed the same after 3 weeks of 500 cal daily intake ketosis. :-)

Edit: That's after 3 weeks of inactivity.

HAHAHAHA! So, you eat 500 calories a day with no carbs for 3 weeks and don't train the whole time and I'M the one who did something wrong? You're a funny guy

That would certainly explain it. I'm jealous of you big lifters. With my back I can't pull more than 315. Which is impressive in that I'm supposed to be in a wheelchair and some of my medical team still insists I shouldn't deadlift. Luckily both my PT and Kinesiologist pushed hard for me to begin strength training, or I might never have gotten the go-ahead.

Thoth8

Then you were doing something wrong. My deadlift stayed the same after 3 weeks of 500 cal daily intake ketosis. :-)

Edit: That's after 3 weeks of inactivity.

HAHAHAHA! So, you eat 500 calories a day with no carbs for 3 weeks and don't train the whole time and I'M the one who did something wrong? You're a funny guy

If I can maintain my maximum strength on a lc diet, then you should definitely be able to do it on a full calorie diet. That is the point I am making.

Lofteren

I am going to go ahead and make an assumption here. Seeing as how your deadlift is exactly the same, I doubt that it's a very heavy pull. If you were really strong and then went into ketosis and didn't train for 3 weeks your deadlift would have definitely gone down since your body is no longer in a state to support that amount of strength. If you had an unimpressive deadlift to begin with; however, you wouldn't face this issue as abruptly. Furthermore, since it is likely that you aren't particularly strong, you probably haven't learned how to grind through a rep to find your true 1RM which makes gauging your performance on a 1RM deadlift inaccurate. So, just out of curiosity, how much can you deadlift?

Lofteren ... Were you doing a standard ketogenic diet, or targeted?

I experienced issues with maximum strength until I started a targeted ketogenic diet. I simply didn't have enough circulating glucose to fuel the anaerobic effort required by 1RM's until I timed my carbohydrate intake to increase serum glucose just prior to either strength-training or HIIT.

I was doing the carb nite solution. After that I tried carb back loading for a while which seemed to just maintain my current strength and body composition without a lot of results. Lately I've been eating a pretty standard diet at 3,000cals a day w/ 250-300g protein (and whatever fat and carbs I happen to eat that day) and have been hitting pr's and losing weight so I've found my niche. Keto diets might be good for some people but I am definitely not one of those people.

Thoth8

250-300g of protein? Unless you have 500 pounds of LEAN BODY WEIGHT, that is way too much protein. Excess protein gets converted into carbs by the liver, so if you were eating that much protein while doing your so-called ketogenic diet, then you were never in ketosis. Supposing you have 250 pounds of lean body weight, you would only need something like 115-130 grams of protein, depending on workout intensity. And you say something about carb nite? MORE Carbs, there is nothing ketogenic about that. You did not lose muscle mass on a proper ketogenic diet, you lost it on a messed up too many carbs and protein diet, which explains everything.

Edit. Ketosis requires you to be UNDER 50 carbs a day. Since excess protein gets converted into glucose (carbs), you can never get into ketosis on the diet you mentioned. Ketosis requires a HIGH SATURATED FAT, medium protein, low carb diet.

Edit 2: Saturated fat has cholesterol, which is required to make sex hormones involved in muscle mass like say... TESTOSTERONE!

iPlatano

250-300g of protein? Unless you have 500 pounds of LEAN BODY WEIGHT, that is way too much protein. Excess protein gets converted into carbs by the liver, so if you were eating that much protein while doing your so-called ketogenic diet, then you were never in ketosis. Supposing you have 250 pounds of lean body weight, you would only need something like 115-130 grams of protein, depending on workout intensity. And you say something about carb nite? MORE Carbs, there is nothing ketogenic about that. You did not lose muscle mass on a proper ketogenic diet, you lost it on a messed up too many carbs and protein diet, which explains everything.

Edit. Ketosis requires you to be UNDER 50 carbs a day. Since excess protein gets converted into glucose (carbs), you can never get into ketosis on the diet you mentioned. Ketosis requires a HIGH SATURATED FAT, medium protein, low carb diet.

Edit 2: Saturated fat has cholesterol, which is required to make sex hormones involved in muscle mass like say... TESTOSTERONE!

This!x10

Lofteren

I'd also like to point out that initial so-called muscle mass losses on a ketogenic diet are actually usually just stored glycogen and water that are retained in the muscles. A larger person will tend to retain a lot more glycogen. Since glycogen is hydrophillic, it also absorbs water! (Up to twice to four times its weight in water) So the muscles actual protein mass never decreases, just the stored water and glycogen. If you are on any standard diet that has you eating 100+ carbs a day, especially if you are trying to gain muscle, therefore, eating more calories than you need, then you are going to be retaining a lot of glycogen and water in your muscles, which btw do not affect muscular performance in any feasible way. I know this, because I still have the same max deadlift after 3 weeks of inactivity after going into ketosis. Before ketosis I was on a high calorie high carb diet, and lifted the exact same max rep. It cannot be neural adaptation because I did nothing after that while going into ketosis.

I am going to go ahead and make an assumption here. Seeing as how your deadlift is exactly the same, I doubt that it's a very heavy pull. If you were really strong and then went into ketosis and didn't train for 3 weeks your deadlift would have definitely gone down since your body is no longer in a state to support that amount of strength. If you had an unimpressive deadlift to begin with; however, you wouldn't face this issue as abruptly. Furthermore, since it is likely that you aren't particularly strong, you probably haven't learned how to grind through a rep to find your true 1RM which makes gauging your performance on a 1RM deadlift inaccurate. So, just out of curiosity, how much can you deadlift?

I am not as strong as you, that is correct. However, a 1RM is a 1RM regardless of how strong or weak you are. My 1RM is 286 lbs. I go through a warm up set, and 3-4 acclimation sets, before I reach 286. I can only lift it once. A second rep is completely impossible for me at the moment, whereas I can do 264 for 2 reps, a third is impossible. So I can assure you that my 1RM is a legitimate 1RM, and it doesn't matter how strong or weak you are. What matters is how you set up your workout, what you are eating, how you are eating, do you eat right after or right before your workouts, are you sleeping enough, are your bones getting the support they need, etc. Everyone has a different set of strength.

Absolutely incorrect. Only a person who has never lifted a heavy weight would say something like this. Your 1RM is absolutely nothing at all like my 1RM. You haven't learned to pull your 1RM yet. You lack the neural drive at your size and strength levels to know the difference. If you pull a weight that is the absolute maximum that your musculoskeletal system is capable of supporting without being injured, that is a 1RM. If you cannot do that then you're just pulling your "current" 1RM at a very untrained level. That's the difference. If you ever get really strong you will know exactly what I am talking about. After a 1RM deadlift my entire body hurts, it takes about 10 seconds for my soul to come back to me and I have a bunch of popped blood vessels in my face and my eyeballs. When that happens, you KNOW that it was a true 1RM and you can gauge your strength accurately off of that.

Lofteren

250-300g of protein? Unless you have 500 pounds of LEAN BODY WEIGHT, that is way too much protein. Excess protein gets converted into carbs by the liver, so if you were eating that much protein while doing your so-called ketogenic diet, then you were never in ketosis. Supposing you have 250 pounds of lean body weight, you would only need something like 115-130 grams of protein, depending on workout intensity. And you say something about carb nite? MORE Carbs, there is nothing ketogenic about that. You did not lose muscle mass on a proper ketogenic diet, you lost it on a messed up too many carbs and protein diet, which explains everything.

Edit. Ketosis requires you to be UNDER 50 carbs a day. Since excess protein gets converted into glucose (carbs), you can never get into ketosis on the diet you mentioned. Ketosis requires a HIGH SATURATED FAT, medium protein, low carb diet.

Edit 2: Saturated fat has cholesterol, which is required to make sex hormones involved in muscle mass like say... TESTOSTERONE!

You seriously just suggested that a powerlifter with 250lbs of lean body mass only needs 115-130lbs of protein a day??? NO wonder you're weak.

Edit: I'd also like to point something out here. This thread is about building muscle on a ketogenic diet. Why would anyone listen to man with a sub 300lb deadlift when it comes to building muscle?

The same people who ask a hobo how to get rich, that's who.

Thoth8

No, I'm weak because I've only been working out for 2 months, however, I do my research. Since my deadlift went from 198 to 286 in only 2 months, I say I'm doing pretty well for myself.

Thoth8

250-300g of protein? Unless you have 500 pounds of LEAN BODY WEIGHT, that is way too much protein. Excess protein gets converted into carbs by the liver, so if you were eating that much protein while doing your so-called ketogenic diet, then you were never in ketosis. Supposing you have 250 pounds of lean body weight, you would only need something like 115-130 grams of protein, depending on workout intensity. And you say something about carb nite? MORE Carbs, there is nothing ketogenic about that. You did not lose muscle mass on a proper ketogenic diet, you lost it on a messed up too many carbs and protein diet, which explains everything.

Edit. Ketosis requires you to be UNDER 50 carbs a day. Since excess protein gets converted into glucose (carbs), you can never get into ketosis on the diet you mentioned. Ketosis requires a HIGH SATURATED FAT, medium protein, low carb diet.

Edit 2: Saturated fat has cholesterol, which is required to make sex hormones involved in muscle mass like say... TESTOSTERONE!

You seriously just suggested that a powerlifter with 250lbs of lean body mass only needs 115-130lbs of protein a day??? NO wonder you're weak.

Edit: I'd also like to point something out here. This thread is about building muscle on a ketogenic diet. Why would anyone listen to man with a sub 300lb deadlift when it comes to building muscle?

The same people who ask a hobo how to get rich, that's who.

I don't care what the post was originally about. MY reply is meant to address YOUR statement which claimed you got weaker on the ketogenic diet. You never did the ketogenic diet in your life, thanks.

iPlatano

250-300g of protein? Unless you have 500 pounds of LEAN BODY WEIGHT, that is way too much protein. Excess protein gets converted into carbs by the liver, so if you were eating that much protein while doing your so-called ketogenic diet, then you were never in ketosis. Supposing you have 250 pounds of lean body weight, you would only need something like 115-130 grams of protein, depending on workout intensity. And you say something about carb nite? MORE Carbs, there is nothing ketogenic about that. You did not lose muscle mass on a proper ketogenic diet, you lost it on a messed up too many carbs and protein diet, which explains everything.

Edit. Ketosis requires you to be UNDER 50 carbs a day. Since excess protein gets converted into glucose (carbs), you can never get into ketosis on the diet you mentioned. Ketosis requires a HIGH SATURATED FAT, medium protein, low carb diet.

Edit 2: Saturated fat has cholesterol, which is required to make sex hormones involved in muscle mass like say... TESTOSTERONE!

You seriously just suggested that a powerlifter with 250lbs of lean body mass only needs 115-130lbs of protein a day??? NO wonder you're weak.

Edit: I'd also like to point something out here. This thread is about building muscle on a ketogenic diet. Why would anyone listen to man with a sub 300lb deadlift when it comes to building muscle?

The same people who ask a hobo how to get rich, that's who.

Well Im 164lbs 8% body fat.
8x2 =16 pound of fat inside my body which means 164-16=148g of protein per day is ideal for me.
And no Im not that weak. I can bench 165x5 and squat 200x5. I could do more while bulking but I just finished cutting and Im gonna lean bulk from now on.

You have to know your body fat so you dont stuff your face with protein and save money.

Lofteren

250-300g of protein? Unless you have 500 pounds of LEAN BODY WEIGHT, that is way too much protein. Excess protein gets converted into carbs by the liver, so if you were eating that much protein while doing your so-called ketogenic diet, then you were never in ketosis. Supposing you have 250 pounds of lean body weight, you would only need something like 115-130 grams of protein, depending on workout intensity. And you say something about carb nite? MORE Carbs, there is nothing ketogenic about that. You did not lose muscle mass on a proper ketogenic diet, you lost it on a messed up too many carbs and protein diet, which explains everything.

Edit. Ketosis requires you to be UNDER 50 carbs a day. Since excess protein gets converted into glucose (carbs), you can never get into ketosis on the diet you mentioned. Ketosis requires a HIGH SATURATED FAT, medium protein, low carb diet.

Edit 2: Saturated fat has cholesterol, which is required to make sex hormones involved in muscle mass like say... TESTOSTERONE!

You seriously just suggested that a powerlifter with 250lbs of lean body mass only needs 115-130lbs of protein a day??? NO wonder you're weak.

Edit: I'd also like to point something out here. This thread is about building muscle on a ketogenic diet. Why would anyone listen to man with a sub 300lb deadlift when it comes to building muscle?

The same people who ask a hobo how to get rich, that's who.

Well Im 164lbs 8% body fat.
8x2 =16 pound of fat inside my body which means 164-16=148g of protein per day is ideal for me.
And no Im not that weak. I can bench 165x5 and squat 200x5. I could do more while bulking but I just finished cutting and Im gonna lean bulk from now on.

You have to know your body fat so you dont stuff your face with protein and save money.

I agree with this. At 165 140-150g of protein a day is sufficient but I am 337lbs @ 23% bf so my lean body mass is approximately 260lbs. 250-300 is appropriate at this size because as you get bigger and stronger, getting bigger and stronger becomes more and more difficult. Because of this it becomes more necessary to build a 100% anabolic environment if you wish to continue progressing. Having a 165x5 bench press and a 200x5 squat isn't the worst in the world but, in the scope of strength, that still is really, really low so you have a lot more leeway. In short, you aren't very adapted so adapting further isn't difficult. Since you are at such a low bodyweight you'll probably hit a double bodyweight squat and 1.5x bodyweight bench before you start experiencing diminishing returns (these are ballpark figures, of course).

Lofteren

250-300g of protein? Unless you have 500 pounds of LEAN BODY WEIGHT, that is way too much protein. Excess protein gets converted into carbs by the liver, so if you were eating that much protein while doing your so-called ketogenic diet, then you were never in ketosis. Supposing you have 250 pounds of lean body weight, you would only need something like 115-130 grams of protein, depending on workout intensity. And you say something about carb nite? MORE Carbs, there is nothing ketogenic about that. You did not lose muscle mass on a proper ketogenic diet, you lost it on a messed up too many carbs and protein diet, which explains everything.

Edit. Ketosis requires you to be UNDER 50 carbs a day. Since excess protein gets converted into glucose (carbs), you can never get into ketosis on the diet you mentioned. Ketosis requires a HIGH SATURATED FAT, medium protein, low carb diet.

Edit 2: Saturated fat has cholesterol, which is required to make sex hormones involved in muscle mass like say... TESTOSTERONE!

You seriously just suggested that a powerlifter with 250lbs of lean body mass only needs 115-130lbs of protein a day??? NO wonder you're weak.

Edit: I'd also like to point something out here. This thread is about building muscle on a ketogenic diet. Why would anyone listen to man with a sub 300lb deadlift when it comes to building muscle?

The same people who ask a hobo how to get rich, that's who.

I don't care what the post was originally about. MY reply is meant to address YOUR statement which claimed you got weaker on the ketogenic diet. You never did the ketogenic diet in your life, thanks.

Well I'll take that into consideration. You obviously know what you're talking about from your VAST 2 months of experience. Three weeks of which were spent starving yourself and not training.

BigT555

No, I'm weak because I've only been working out for 2 months, however, I do my research. Since my deadlift went from 198 to 286 in only 2 months, I say I'm doing pretty well for myself.

your deadlift increase due to noob gains dude, not keto.
i dont know much about keto but someone who just started lifting is going to make strength gains in their first few months no matter what their diet is

Thoth8

250-300g of protein? Unless you have 500 pounds of LEAN BODY WEIGHT, that is way too much protein. Excess protein gets converted into carbs by the liver, so if you were eating that much protein while doing your so-called ketogenic diet, then you were never in ketosis. Supposing you have 250 pounds of lean body weight, you would only need something like 115-130 grams of protein, depending on workout intensity. And you say something about carb nite? MORE Carbs, there is nothing ketogenic about that. You did not lose muscle mass on a proper ketogenic diet, you lost it on a messed up too many carbs and protein diet, which explains everything.

Edit. Ketosis requires you to be UNDER 50 carbs a day. Since excess protein gets converted into glucose (carbs), you can never get into ketosis on the diet you mentioned. Ketosis requires a HIGH SATURATED FAT, medium protein, low carb diet.

Edit 2: Saturated fat has cholesterol, which is required to make sex hormones involved in muscle mass like say... TESTOSTERONE!

You seriously just suggested that a powerlifter with 250lbs of lean body mass only needs 115-130lbs of protein a day??? NO wonder you're weak.

Edit: I'd also like to point something out here. This thread is about building muscle on a ketogenic diet. Why would anyone listen to man with a sub 300lb deadlift when it comes to building muscle?

The same people who ask a hobo how to get rich, that's who.

I don't care what the post was originally about. MY reply is meant to address YOUR statement which claimed you got weaker on the ketogenic diet. You never did the ketogenic diet in your life, thanks.

Well I'll take that into consideration. You obviously know what you're talking about from your VAST 2 months of experience. Three weeks of which were spent starving yourself and not training.

No, you obviously have more muscle building experience. I never doubted that. What I doubted is your knowledge of KETOSIS AND KETOGENIC DIETS. The diet you described is not even remotely ketogenic!!! Therefore blaming your losses on the ketogenic diet is ridiculous. I am far more experienced than you in ketogenic diets, as I have done them several times over the years.

Thoth8

No, I'm weak because I've only been working out for 2 months, however, I do my research. Since my deadlift went from 198 to 286 in only 2 months, I say I'm doing pretty well for myself.

your deadlift increase due to noob gains dude, not keto.
i dont know much about keto but someone who just started lifting is going to make strength gains in their first few months no matter what their diet is

Yes, however, this guy blamed his 50+ lbs loss of deadlift strength on a ketogenic diet, but the diet he described is NOT ketogenic, that's what my replies are about.

Thoth8

250-300g of protein? Unless you have 500 pounds of LEAN BODY WEIGHT, that is way too much protein. Excess protein gets converted into carbs by the liver, so if you were eating that much protein while doing your so-called ketogenic diet, then you were never in ketosis. Supposing you have 250 pounds of lean body weight, you would only need something like 115-130 grams of protein, depending on workout intensity. And you say something about carb nite? MORE Carbs, there is nothing ketogenic about that. You did not lose muscle mass on a proper ketogenic diet, you lost it on a messed up too many carbs and protein diet, which explains everything.

Edit. Ketosis requires you to be UNDER 50 carbs a day. Since excess protein gets converted into glucose (carbs), you can never get into ketosis on the diet you mentioned. Ketosis requires a HIGH SATURATED FAT, medium protein, low carb diet.

Edit 2: Saturated fat has cholesterol, which is required to make sex hormones involved in muscle mass like say... TESTOSTERONE!

You seriously just suggested that a powerlifter with 250lbs of lean body mass only needs 115-130lbs of protein a day??? NO wonder you're weak.

Edit: I'd also like to point something out here. This thread is about building muscle on a ketogenic diet. Why would anyone listen to man with a sub 300lb deadlift when it comes to building muscle?

The same people who ask a hobo how to get rich, that's who.

I don't care what the post was originally about. MY reply is meant to address YOUR statement which claimed you got weaker on the ketogenic diet. You never did the ketogenic diet in your life, thanks.

Beginner strength can mostly be chalked up to CNS adaptation.

You have at this 2 months. You need a little more time invested before you spout of at home great your method is or how much you will succeed. A bunch of guys come around monthly with that attitude, very few last. I don't suspect you will be any different.

Enjoy your strength gains now. Eventually when you get hurt and can't figure out why or why you can't recover maybe you will realize how idiotic it is do go 500 calories per day or VLCD.

I am obviously not going to do a vlcd very long as that is unhealthy. It's a temporary fix. In a couple of weeks, I will go into a 2500+ calorie PROPER ketogenic diet. Then I will be making gains.