NEWSFLASH: McDonald’s existed back when I was a kid
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Now of course, that is a very broad generalization about government programs and has nothing to do with McDonald's. I feel bad for McDonald's. They are the go-to scapegoat for the "big bad fast food monsters". No one demonizes Taco Bell or Subway like they do McDonald's.
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McDonalds doesn't get hurt feelings or even lose money by making healthier products.
Do you work in the finance department at McDs?
Well that would be an interesting twist!
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say...NO.
Which means you probably haven't run a cost benefit analysis on each individual healthier item sold at McDs, cross checked by state (if we are being pretty general, otherwise each store) and country? And, then you probably also haven't run a cost benefit analysis of integrating the healthier items in the meal choices providing that's what consumers even want. Per the latter point, this is debatable considering the fact that McDs has struggled to sell it's healthier products...
And I'm going to out there on a limb and say you haven't a cost benefit analysis of a total menu overhaul....
Considering you haven't done all this, I'm pretty sure you can't confidently say that McDs doesn't stand to lose money by making healthier products.
You're making a completely speculative argument in favour of McDs profits, and you're willing to make those assumptions because you want to even avoid risk to McDs profits, on the basis that McDs profits are more important than the human beings who eat their food.
What a strange argument.
Well, it's sure as heck a lot better than making a naive and unsupported claim that the company doesn't lose money on its healthy products. Just because I pointed out that you have no basis for knowing what they do and do not make money from, doesn't make it a strange argument. It's not even an argument, I'm merely pointing out that you can't really use that point because you don't really know...
And, yes, I believe that it's important for companies to be profitable. It's important to the employees, it's important to the tax payers and it's important to the shareholders.
I am pretty confident that McD's has crunched every number that there is to crunch against the forecasted demand for certain products. If they can't make it work because the demand isn't there, that's not their problem.
Your attitude towards consumers is duly noted.
Reforming McDonalds instead of doing what you told me to do if I didn't like it, which was to stay away, actually preserves more jobs. If people want to eat healthy and can eat healthier there, then they will go there.
Frankly, we've had this argument before. on page 9.
But they HAVE made changes that people have demanded. They ARE trying to make everyone happy. The free market DOES work.
But that doesn't mean they should have to do things that make them lose money. They need to make money. In order to make money, they need to tweak supply chain, test new products, market new products and so much more. That's why it's not happening over night.
You can't have it all your way, right away.
Unless of course, you go to Burger King.
Not anymore...lol
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/burger-king-scrapping-slogan-237828330 -
I'm so relieved all the personal responsibility folks don't live in abject poverty. The voices of those in extreme poverty aren't here and you know why? Because they don't have computers!!!! When I ate fast food, it was a choice. I gained weight and it was totally my choice. However, I also had/have the resources to make better choices. It's not just about education - it's about taking a hungry kid and making them feel full - and McD's and other fast food giants who provide calorie laden foods at a cheap price point take advantage (not necessarily intentionally) of that fact. there are kids who might get two meals a day during the school year and if my kid is hungry, i'm not so concerned with nutrition as quieting a hungry belly so my kid can sleep. i have worked for years with these families...it isn't always about 'choice' and 'responsibility.' what i am talking about has nothing to do with people on MFP who have time and resources to devote to health. i'm talking about people who we work with to grow community gardens and teach them to prepare fresh food because they don't know how because they have never had it and live in food deserts of the 'inner city' without access to produce besides the overripe bananas at the gas station, but can find as much fast food as your heart desires within a quarter mile of home, but the grocery is over 5 miles away and they have no car. the issue is bigger than just 'you choose or you don't choose.' maybe you, but not everyone.
I'm far from rich, they do have computers at a library...or they can actually ask McDonald's for the nutritional information. It has nothing to do with money or lack of it. If they want to know they will educate themselves.
I'm not rich either. I'm talking about people with nothing - which if you had ever walked in those shoes or even knew someone close to you who lived this life, you'd have a little more empathy. I see it every day and it breaks my heart to see hungry kids when my biggest problem is losing weight. hungry kids who are obese by the way because they don't get nutritious food - they get over-processed, calorie laden foods.
So because I suggested libraries and that people could go to them for and use the computers for free and if they wanted to educate themselves they would do that, that means I have no empathy.
And it's overconsumption of calories that make people fat. Because you can gain or lose weight eating whatever you want. I'm not talking about nutrition because that's different all together. But overconsumption is why people are fat. I eat pretty healthy and I'm fat...because I ate too much of said healthy food.0 -
I agree! And also the problem with our society is so much bigger than a restaurant!
Being a mom for 15 years now I have witnessed some of the dumbest parenting moments from myself and friends. I will stick to food related ones here to stay on topic!
Like for example I'm at a family or kids birthday party. The main meal is hot dogs or Pizza. Why because they are easy and cheap and lets face it most people like it. There are also chips, some kind of fruit covered in jello or with marshmallows maybe some baked beans covered in sugar and bacon and bacon fat., how about some french fries and don't forget the Ketchup most kids cover their food in. What do I hear parents saying to their kids if you don't finish your food you aren't getting cake.....it's not like they have a healthy piece of protein, a lovely veggie a good wholesome option for a grain....the whole dang meal is JUNK there is probably even soda and cool aid or even worst some artificially sweetened drinks. So why must they finish their food before the cake? The cake maybe better for them than their meal.
People's idea of healthy food options are crazy. Even look at the lunch menu in any public school. They think getting something from each food group is the way to go. But who cares if it's fried, or the cheese is fake cheese.
And a lot of peoples home meals look the same. I have babysat kids that love chicken....nuggets but have never seen a grilled chicken breast and are grossed out by it. They wouldn't know what fish look like either just fish sticks, and broccoli people eat that?
The problem goes so much deeper than a fast food chain.0 -
I think maybe you don't enjoy critically looking at problems. Which is fine, but McDonalds is part of the cheap fast food that is making people obese - it's unhealthy food that is cheap. They do have some duty towards their customers not to feed them crap. Yes, McDonalds existed when you were a kid. People became more and more obese during your lifetime so far.
Your comments about the Occupy Wall Street movements are similar.
It's possible to lose weight, but there's no known cure for conservatism/libertarianism/whatever it is that stops you seeing things in context. As Stephen Colbert pointed out, "Reality has a well-known liberal bias."
Nobody forces you to eat fast food. Just saying
No, they don't force me. I don't eat fast food often, but when people are busy and they need access to a cheap meal, they go to places like McDonalds and other places. It's not a crime to want a cheap lunch. The places that purport to serve food have a responsibility to the people they serve.
Yes, everybody could pack their own lunch and all the restaurants could close down during lunch hour. But many people, many working people, eat out. The places where they eat should take some responsibility not to serve heavily processed, terrible food.
Companies have some responsibility to consumers. For example, they can't poison you. The next step is to ask them not to serve ridiculously processed crap to people. No, people don't have to eat it, but removing responsibility from the company is ridiculous. Or, to put it another way, Republican.
The OP apparently considers that the Occupy Wall Street movement "blamed big corporations for their plight in life and thus decided to go on a rampage to destroy private property." A complete lack of social consciousness.
It's not a crime to eat food out. Restaurants should serve reasonable food. It's not the 19th Century, 'buyer beware'.
Also, when kids go out, a lot of them go to places like this because it fits with their pocket money. McDonalds very directly marketed towards children, though I take the point of the poster above who says that it's less so today.
You know what? Yesterday I didn't bring a lunch and was swamped at work. McDonalds is close and convenient, so I took 10 minutes to run over there and grab something to bring back to my office. I ordered a grilled chicken southwest salad (hold the tortilla strips please!). My entire lunch cost me 350 calories and that was with "real" dressing (southwest ranch). That's it, and it tasted fantastic. I eat McDonald's often, but I haven't had a hamburger or fries there in several years. I also eat at Taco Bell, Jimmy John's, Subway, Qdoba, pizza, etc. very often. I just did my research and know what offerings they have that fit within my daily goals. Once in a while I even splurge and then either eat less the rest of the day, or exercise more. It's not rocket science.
My point is that McDonalds and the rest of the fast food industry DO serve healthy food - if you want it! I'm with the OP. Quit blaming everyone else and take some personal responsibility. Is it hard to pass up the temptations? ABSOLUTELY! Is it hard to say no to your kids when you've had a hectic day and they are screaming for a burger and fries? Of course! However, you *can* pass up the temptations and say no to your kids if you really want to. I'm so sick of the "blame the fast food industry" movement. Gah!0 -
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:0 -
Lets take a moment to realize that even in America when you "eat healthy" everything we have in grocery stores, fast food places, and some restaurants have mutated meat, vegetables, and even milk. Hormones, pesticide, fake cheese, every where we go there is crap to put in our bodies. The only way to be sure we aren't poisoning ourselves is to grow our own animals, fruits, and vegetables.
We live in an f*cked up world.0 -
That's very mature yourself there! Thanks for trying to deliberately twist my words, you were good but the guy who actually made up a quote did better.
Where did I twist your words? You keep ranting how McDonalds has all of these responsibilities then claim people need to educate themselves ... an inherently personal responsibility. You keep saying they sell salads "now" when they've been on the menu for three decades (and still lag at under 3% of sales for the company illustrating that McDonalds customers choose the food you see as bad).
You blame the company, not the customers who drive corporate decisions. You then accuse others of twisting your words when what you keep saying gets trumped by logic, fact, and reality.
They have not had the same menu items for three decades, unless you go to a very special vintage mcdonalds. They have certainly not had the same salad (or any salad) on their menu for three decades.
Please quote your source for the 3%. Also, that is not a global figure. McDonalds have been adopting their menus around the world as customers increasingly reject the old crap and why? EDUCATION.
Also, I will try to explain one more time: You make personal decisions based on information available to you. The reason why you have information about McDonalds is because of consumer rights groups and documentaries. Therefore, your KNOWLEDGE is what gives you your freedom. Your personal responsibility depends on actions people have taken outside the company for the benefit of consumers. Therefore, simply saying 'personal responsibility' and refusing to admit that collective consumer action is and has been necessary... well that's dishonest.0 -
you obviously haven't heard of food deserts where grocery stores do not exist within a reasonable distance.
I have, although I'm not sure I buy it's that widespread of a problem. And even taken at face value, it has little to do with not taking responsibility for becoming obese. Eating less nutritious food does not make you obese. Eating TOO MANY nutrients makes you obese. In the context of a discussion on obesity, a lack of financial resources and easy access to large groceries stores might make it more difficult to get food at a reasonable cost - but it doesn't justify overeating to the point you become obese. People lose weight eating "junk" food on a regular basis, just like people gain weight eating "junk" food. The difference is how much of it you're eating. If you were talking about malnutrition, you may have a point. But in the context of obesity, "food deserts" do not take away someone's personal responsibility for your own health nor does living in such a location necessarily make you fat. Again, eating at maintenance or at a caloric deficit is always going to be cheaper than eating a caloric surplus, even if you live in the Sahara food desert.
From my own experience, I had an uncle growing up who was incredibly poor and later in life was unable to drive himself to the grocery store. He ran a small store out of his house that sold soda and candy bars, and he'd get someone (frequently my immediate family) once a week to drive him into town to go to a grocery store for his groceries and to restock his "store." Did he get fat as a hog because of this? No, he was always rail thin even though he was't the most active person and even though his diet consisted of canned and instant foods and he ran a store that essentially sold only "junk" food. Just because you can't shop at Whole Foods for organic vegetables does not mean you're bound to become obese or that you have any less personal responsibility for your own health.0 -
I'm so relieved all the personal responsibility folks don't live in abject poverty. The voices of those in extreme poverty aren't here and you know why? Because they don't have computers!!!! When I ate fast food, it was a choice. I gained weight and it was totally my choice. However, I also had/have the resources to make better choices. It's not just about education - it's about taking a hungry kid and making them feel full - and McD's and other fast food giants who provide calorie laden foods at a cheap price point take advantage (not necessarily intentionally) of that fact. there are kids who might get two meals a day during the school year and if my kid is hungry, i'm not so concerned with nutrition as quieting a hungry belly so my kid can sleep. i have worked for years with these families...it isn't always about 'choice' and 'responsibility.' what i am talking about has nothing to do with people on MFP who have time and resources to devote to health. i'm talking about people who we work with to grow community gardens and teach them to prepare fresh food because they don't know how because they have never had it and live in food deserts of the 'inner city' without access to produce besides the overripe bananas at the gas station, but can find as much fast food as your heart desires within a quarter mile of home, but the grocery is over 5 miles away and they have no car. the issue is bigger than just 'you choose or you don't choose.' maybe you, but not everyone.
Please stop. Advocating personal responsibility and worrying about food availability are not mutually exclusive. Plenty of people here who support consumers taking responsibility to educate themselves, reading the nutrition information that is available in stores and has been well before Super Size Me, and make choices about what to put in their bodies when it comes to fast food also do things like volunteer in and donate to food pantries, help run community gardens, and are active voices in helping people who live in food deserts or have food insecurity.0 -
When I was a kid the typical adult McDonald's meal included a burger and fries *smaller* than anything on the menu today, and a 12oz drink. No free refills.
The 1400 calorie McDonald meal did not exist.0 -
I think maybe you don't enjoy critically looking at problems. Which is fine, but McDonalds is part of the cheap fast food that is making people obese - it's unhealthy food that is cheap. They do have some duty towards their customers not to feed them crap. Yes, McDonalds existed when you were a kid. People became more and more obese during your lifetime so far.
Your comments about the Occupy Wall Street movements are similar.
It's possible to lose weight, but there's no known cure for conservatism/libertarianism/whatever it is that stops you seeing things in context. As Stephen Colbert pointed out, "Reality has a well-known liberal bias."
Nobody forces you to eat fast food. Just saying
No, they don't force me. I don't eat fast food often, but when people are busy and they need access to a cheap meal, they go to places like McDonalds and other places. It's not a crime to want a cheap lunch. The places that purport to serve food have a responsibility to the people they serve.
Yes, everybody could pack their own lunch and all the restaurants could close down during lunch hour. But many people, many working people, eat out. The places where they eat should take some responsibility not to serve heavily processed, terrible food.
Companies have some responsibility to consumers. For example, they can't poison you. The next step is to ask them not to serve ridiculously processed crap to people. No, people don't have to eat it, but removing responsibility from the company is ridiculous. Or, to put it another way, Republican.
The OP apparently considers that the Occupy Wall Street movement "blamed big corporations for their plight in life and thus decided to go on a rampage to destroy private property." A complete lack of social consciousness.
It's not a crime to eat food out. Restaurants should serve reasonable food. It's not the 19th Century, 'buyer beware'.
Also, when kids go out, a lot of them go to places like this because it fits with their pocket money. McDonalds very directly marketed towards children, though I take the point of the poster above who says that it's less so today.
You know what? Yesterday I didn't bring a lunch and was swamped at work. McDonalds is close and convenient, so I took 10 minutes to run over there and grab something to bring back to my office. I ordered a grilled chicken southwest salad (hold the tortilla strips please!). My entire lunch cost me 350 calories and that was with "real" dressing (southwest ranch). That's it, and it tasted fantastic. I eat McDonald's often, but I haven't had a hamburger or fries there in several years. I also eat at Taco Bell, Jimmy John's, Subway, Qdoba, pizza, etc. very often. I just did my research and know what offerings they have that fit within my daily goals. Once in a while I even splurge and then either eat less the rest of the day, or exercise more. It's not rocket science.
My point is that McDonalds and the rest of the fast food industry DO serve healthy food - if you want it! I'm with the OP. Quit blaming everyone else and take some personal responsibility. Is it hard to pass up the temptations? ABSOLUTELY! Is it hard to say no to your kids when you've had a hectic day and they are screaming for a burger and fries? Of course! However, you *can* pass up the temptations and say no to your kids if you really want to. I'm so sick of the "blame the fast food industry" movement. Gah!
Did McDonalds always serve that option? The reason why they have been changing their menu to include lower calorie items is... consumer pressure.
They serve healthier options because consumer groups demand it, not because people smugly sat around saying 'it's personal responsibility!'0 -
I'm so relieved all the personal responsibility folks don't live in abject poverty. The voices of those in extreme poverty aren't here and you know why? Because they don't have computers!!!!
when I was at university, I had about five pounds a week to feed myself. It wasn't that long ago either (late 90s). Just because I have money now it doesn't mean I have no idea what it's like to try to live off very little.
I wasn't fat then. Actually I was pretty lean, seeing as the jobs I had to pay my way through university (ice steward at the local ice rink, delivering the mail) kept me thin. Plus having barely enough to eat... no danger of overeating because I couldn't afford to. On the rare occasions I went to McDonalds (couldn't afford it usually) I ordered 2 fillet o fish (the cheapest burger) because 2 of them was the same price as 1 burger + meal deal, but had twice as much protein and was more filling.
If poor people in the USA can only eat McDonalds, then that's a serious problem with the infrastructure in American society. It's bizarre that McDonalds is the most affordable option, or that people who don't have cars can't get to supermarkets to buy fresh produce. In the UK, there are cheap supermarkets like Lidl and Aldi that have small branches in residential areas, and they sell discounted fruit and veg and most people have at least one cheap supermarket in walking distance of their house. Plus there are buses, and while some places have better bus services than others, pretty much every city/town runs a daytime bus service to the centre of town. Maybe you have to live in London to have a night bus service, but most places you can get to the shopping centre during the daytime.
And most of the time I lived in the UK, I used to walk to the town centre to save money on bus fare (1-3 miles, depending on where I was living at the time). And when I was really poor at university, I bought fruit and veg from the local greengrocer (cheaper and easier than taking the bus to Tesco (a supermarket) and carrying all the shopping bags back from the bus stop). I got some staples from Kwik Save (a very cheap supermarket) and a few other places to take advantage of cheaper options. I walked to most places, only Tesco was a bus trip.
Also, there are ways for poor people to access computers in the UK... public libraries have free wifi and computers that can be used by anyone with a library card (which is free to residents in the area that the library is in).
Also, if McDonalds is only one of 2 meals a day that are being eaten by poor kids, then that's not going to make them obese... 2 meals a day isn't going to make any kid obese, especially if they have to walk everywhere because their parents don't have a car. So I don't really get how McDonalds is responsible for making poor people fat.... if the issue is accessability to a wider range of food choices, then there needs to be affordable public transport and some way to encourage cheaper supermarkets to have smaller outlets that serve residential communities. You can't blame McDonalds for the lack of public transports or affordable fresh food within walking distance of residential areas where poor people live.0 -
I agree it's not McDonald's fault b/c as a kid I looked pretty much like my current avi and there was McDonalds. My parent's didn't take me there too much though, remember eddie murphys skit about the bread at mcdonalds? it was kind of like that. My parent's preferred to cook at home for probably a variety of reasons. Family time, controlling the food, budgeting for mortgage payments...who knows.
Ultimately we had it once in awhile and as I grew up I had a healthy relationship with food and had categorized "real food" and other food. Real food is what we had at home that was satisfying and healthy.
I'm not sure it's the "obese parent's" fault either.
I think the lifestyle has changed for kids. People don't walk to school as much. People don't run to the neighbors to see if they can play and run around the neighborhood as much. Technology has informed us of so much that in general parents let their children out way less than before and that results in inactivity. Technology has also provided indoor inactive solutions that don't get kids moving.
I know some will say well there are tons of classes to sign kids up for and that's great for most, but there are some people who can't afford those with time or money. I mean if you go to those classes you'll notice some overweight kids anyways. Also commuting creates inactive time for kids as well. In todays world you have to be ultra conscious of choices and ultra planney to make sure you provide your kids with opportunities to move. Some people are too overwhelmed just trying to survive.
Another obstacle is when there are more split up families getting the kids from one house to another takes up time as well. This time would possibly otherwise been spent running around the neighborhood or backyard. That's another one, when the bubble burst on the housing market people I know who lived in homes now live in apartments or condos, which are also less conducive to activity. I think many many factors are at play in more kids being obese, and I think it just takes extra effort, planning, and commitment to making sure one's own children are healthy and happy.
Oh that reminds me one more...some adults actually spend too much time doing technology and also work is requiring more hours for less pay so kids are just kind of lollying around more left to their own devices. Eating what they want, doing what they want and getting into all kinds of problems just from being ignored while their parents are distracted by technology we didn't have as children. It's important to prioritize and find a balance. It takes a concerted effort nowadays.0 -
you obviously haven't heard of food deserts where grocery stores do not exist within a reasonable distance.
When I was poor and any food (let alone grocery stores) was not available within a reasonable distance, I was skinny.
So that experience coupled with the fact that I subsequently got fat because I ate too much, leads me to think that food deserts may not be a primary driver of obesity.0 -
I think maybe you don't enjoy critically looking at problems. Which is fine, but McDonalds is part of the cheap fast food that is making people obese - it's unhealthy food that is cheap. They do have some duty towards their customers not to feed them crap. Yes, McDonalds existed when you were a kid. People became more and more obese during your lifetime so far.
McDonalds doesn't have a duty not to feed their customers crap! Just don't eat so much of it. McDonalds only duty is to make money. They are a business.0 -
I'm so relieved all the personal responsibility folks don't live in abject poverty. The voices of those in extreme poverty aren't here and you know why? Because they don't have computers!!!! When I ate fast food, it was a choice. I gained weight and it was totally my choice. However, I also had/have the resources to make better choices. It's not just about education - it's about taking a hungry kid and making them feel full - and McD's and other fast food giants who provide calorie laden foods at a cheap price point take advantage (not necessarily intentionally) of that fact. there are kids who might get two meals a day during the school year and if my kid is hungry, i'm not so concerned with nutrition as quieting a hungry belly so my kid can sleep. i have worked for years with these families...it isn't always about 'choice' and 'responsibility.' what i am talking about has nothing to do with people on MFP who have time and resources to devote to health. i'm talking about people who we work with to grow community gardens and teach them to prepare fresh food because they don't know how because they have never had it and live in food deserts of the 'inner city' without access to produce besides the overripe bananas at the gas station, but can find as much fast food as your heart desires within a quarter mile of home, but the grocery is over 5 miles away and they have no car. the issue is bigger than just 'you choose or you don't choose.' maybe you, but not everyone.
Please stop. Advocating personal responsibility and worrying about food availability are not mutually exclusive. Plenty of people here who support consumers taking responsibility to educate themselves, reading the nutrition information that is available in stores and has been well before Super Size Me, and make choices about what to put in their bodies when it comes to fast food also do things like volunteer in and donate to food pantries, help run community gardens, and are active voices in helping people who live in food deserts or have food insecurity.
I do not deny personal responsibility, but your responsibility is limited by your choices.0 -
I'd be curious to know how much serving sizes have changed since you were a kid. I'm not blaming McDonald's, or any other restaurant, etc. Personal responsibility and all. Just wondering if increased portions plays a role in people's perception of what they should be eating. Like if you grew up with parents from the Depression era who drilled it into your brain to eat everything on your plate. You go to McDonald's and a small soda is now the size of what used to be at least a medium, possibly a large. I think the medium fries are bigger than what a large used to be. So you eat most or all of your food b/c you ordered it and paid for it and were raised to finish for your meal. And maybe that carries over at home and you start serving bigger portions b/c it's what you're used to seeing on your plate at lunch or whatever.
Again, I'm NOT blaming McDonald's. I just legitimately wonder if increased portion size in commercial restaurants and fast food has skewed people's perception of how much food they can and should eat. But it boils down to educating yourself. If your kid is getting fat, it's time to take a look at what they're eating, how much, and what they're doing when they're not eating. I think a lot of those parents are probably overweight themselves, or they just eat an appropriate amount of food without really trying, and they just need to educate themselves. It just sucks that there's so much BS out there and that it's so accessible. It's why you see the occasional post from a parent wanting to put their kid on the grapefruit diet or soup diet, etc. I don't even know if those are real diets. Just sounds like something my mom tried with my sister when she was 18 or 19.:noway:0 -
I'm so relieved all the personal responsibility folks don't live in abject poverty. The voices of those in extreme poverty aren't here and you know why? Because they don't have computers!!!!
when I was at university, I had about five pounds a week to feed myself. It wasn't that long ago either (late 90s). Just because I have money now it doesn't mean I have no idea what it's like to try to live off very little.
I wasn't fat then. Actually I was pretty lean, seeing as the jobs I had to pay my way through university (ice steward at the local ice rink, delivering the mail) kept me thin. Plus having barely enough to eat... no danger of overeating because I couldn't afford to. On the rare occasions I went to McDonalds (couldn't afford it usually) I ordered 2 fillet o fish (the cheapest burger) because 2 of them was the same price as 1 burger + meal deal, but had twice as much protein and was more filling.
If poor people in the USA can only eat McDonalds, then that's a serious problem with the infrastructure in American society. It's bizarre that McDonalds is the most affordable option, or that people who don't have cars can't get to supermarkets to buy fresh produce. In the UK, there are cheap supermarkets like Lidl and Aldi that have small branches in residential areas, and they sell discounted fruit and veg and most people have at least one cheap supermarket in walking distance of their house. Plus there are buses, and while some places have better bus services than others, pretty much every city/town runs a daytime bus service to the centre of town. Maybe you have to live in London to have a night bus service, but most places you can get to the shopping centre during the daytime.
And most of the time I lived in the UK, I used to walk to the town centre to save money on bus fare (1-3 miles, depending on where I was living at the time). And when I was really poor at university, I bought fruit and veg from the local greengrocer (cheaper and easier than taking the bus to Tesco (a supermarket) and carrying all the shopping bags back from the bus stop). I got some staples from Kwik Save (a very cheap supermarket) and a few other places to take advantage of cheaper options. I walked to most places, only Tesco was a bus trip.
Also, there are ways for poor people to access computers in the UK... public libraries have free wifi and computers that can be used by anyone with a library card (which is free to residents in the area that the library is in).
Also, if McDonalds is only one of 2 meals a day that are being eaten by poor kids, then that's not going to make them obese... 2 meals a day isn't going to make any kid obese, especially if they have to walk everywhere because their parents don't have a car. So I don't really get how McDonalds is responsible for making poor people fat.... if the issue is accessability to a wider range of food choices, then there needs to be affordable public transport and some way to encourage cheaper supermarkets to have smaller outlets that serve residential communities. You can't blame McDonalds for the lack of public transports or affordable fresh food within walking distance of residential areas where poor people live.
Exactly. Being poor is not an excuse to be obese. Should actually detract from obesity since you don't have the money to buy food.0 -
Did McDonalds always serve that option? The reason why they have been changing their menu to include lower calorie items is... consumer pressure.
They serve healthier options because consumer groups demand it, not because people smugly sat around saying 'it's personal responsibility!'
I don't think consumer groups and personal responsibility are mutually exclusive concepts. Consumer groups exist because some people feel it's their personal responsibility to advocate for something because they care about it. We all have that option.
There's a big difference between consumer pressure and regulatory pressure. I think what people here are saying that consumer/customer pressure is fine. That's the way that markets work.
This is also a completely different argument from "McDs made me fat."0 -
I think maybe you don't enjoy critically looking at problems. Which is fine, but McDonalds is part of the cheap fast food that is making people obese - it's unhealthy food that is cheap. They do have some duty towards their customers not to feed them crap. Yes, McDonalds existed when you were a kid. People became more and more obese during your lifetime so far.
Your comments about the Occupy Wall Street movements are similar.
It's possible to lose weight, but there's no known cure for conservatism/libertarianism/whatever it is that stops you seeing things in context. As Stephen Colbert pointed out, "Reality has a well-known liberal bias."
But if McD's customers didn't WANT that food they wouldn't serve it!
The only reason they make burgers and fries like that is because CUSTOMERS WANT IT!
I think another big change in our lifestyle is partially to blame for the obesity epidemic - ELECTRONICS!
I'm 51 and when I grew up we didn't have Video Games, Home PC's, and the internet.
We were TOLD TO GO OUTSIDE AND PLAY.
I didn't have a car till I was 18 or older, so I either WALKED or BICYCLED to go places.
I got off my BUTT AND MOVED!
I live in a small community (subdivision) where the entrance is less than a mile from the furthest house and yet the parents all park their cars at the entrance to pick up there spoiled little brats from the Junior High and High school busses!
Their poor kids can't be expected to walk a few hundred yards to their houses - and it's always the same cars doing it!
It is a learned behavior - so now the kids DEMAND to not walk anywhere!
It's this lack of exercise and easily obtainable crappy food that is doing it - and NOBODY IS FORCING THEM TO EAT IT!
I'm 51 and FAT - and it is MY FAULT - because I at loads of Pizza, McDonalds, Wendy's, etc when I got out of the Air Force.
And I do NOT blame McDonalds, Wendy's, and other fast food places I BLAME MYSELF!
Its time that Americans quit passing the buck and take the blame individually!!
Dave
Thank you Dave!!! I totally agree!0 -
I'm so relieved all the personal responsibility folks don't live in abject poverty. The voices of those in extreme poverty aren't here and you know why? Because they don't have computers!!!!
when I was at university, I had about five pounds a week to feed myself. It wasn't that long ago either (late 90s). Just because I have money now it doesn't mean I have no idea what it's like to try to live off very little.
I wasn't fat then. Actually I was pretty lean, seeing as the jobs I had to pay my way through university (ice steward at the local ice rink, delivering the mail) kept me thin. Plus having barely enough to eat... no danger of overeating because I couldn't afford to. On the rare occasions I went to McDonalds (couldn't afford it usually) I ordered 2 fillet o fish (the cheapest burger) because 2 of them was the same price as 1 burger + meal deal, but had twice as much protein and was more filling.
If poor people in the USA can only eat McDonalds, then that's a serious problem with the infrastructure in American society. It's bizarre that McDonalds is the most affordable option, or that people who don't have cars can't get to supermarkets to buy fresh produce. In the UK, there are cheap supermarkets like Lidl and Aldi that have small branches in residential areas, and they sell discounted fruit and veg and most people have at least one cheap supermarket in walking distance of their house. Plus there are buses, and while some places have better bus services than others, pretty much every city/town runs a daytime bus service to the centre of town. Maybe you have to live in London to have a night bus service, but most places you can get to the shopping centre during the daytime.
And most of the time I lived in the UK, I used to walk to the town centre to save money on bus fare (1-3 miles, depending on where I was living at the time). And when I was really poor at university, I bought fruit and veg from the local greengrocer (cheaper and easier than taking the bus to Tesco (a supermarket) and carrying all the shopping bags back from the bus stop). I got some staples from Kwik Save (a very cheap supermarket) and a few other places to take advantage of cheaper options. I walked to most places, only Tesco was a bus trip.
Also, there are ways for poor people to access computers in the UK... public libraries have free wifi and computers that can be used by anyone with a library card (which is free to residents in the area that the library is in).
Also, if McDonalds is only one of 2 meals a day that are being eaten by poor kids, then that's not going to make them obese... 2 meals a day isn't going to make any kid obese, especially if they have to walk everywhere because their parents don't have a car. So I don't really get how McDonalds is responsible for making poor people fat.... if the issue is accessability to a wider range of food choices, then there needs to be affordable public transport and some way to encourage cheaper supermarkets to have smaller outlets that serve residential communities. You can't blame McDonalds for the lack of public transports or affordable fresh food within walking distance of residential areas where poor people live.
I've lived abroad and Europe is much more pedestrian friendly as well as mass transit. If you live anywhere outside of the mega-metro areas in the US, there is no rail service, no buses, etc. And I'm not saying poverty makes people fat. It IS about choice, but it boils down to your CHOICES. And when your choices are hoofing it the 2 miles to the McDonald's or hoofing it the 5-10 miles to the grocery and it's 6 PM and your kids have school tomorrow and they are hungry now, which will you choose?0 -
Where is Mayor McCheese these days?
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Yes! You is SMRTLook at what is going on with the VA... that is what you get with federally-provided health care. The government deciding who gets what services because government-provided resources are limited.
Actually, many countries have great government-funded healthcare, including many strong capitalist places. What is happening with the VA etc. is because of the American political climate, not because of the possibilities of government healthcare. Ask the Scandinavians. Even though the Brits complain about the NHS, they'd never go without it.0 -
I think maybe you don't enjoy critically looking at problems. Which is fine, but McDonalds is part of the cheap fast food that is making people obese - it's unhealthy food that is cheap. They do have some duty towards their customers not to feed them crap. Yes, McDonalds existed when you were a kid. People became more and more obese during your lifetime so far.
Your comments about the Occupy Wall Street movements are similar.
It's possible to lose weight, but there's no known cure for conservatism/libertarianism/whatever it is that stops you seeing things in context. As Stephen Colbert pointed out, "Reality has a well-known liberal bias."
Junk food is actually not cheap. If i went to McDonalds here in the UK and bought 2 adults meals and 2 happy meals for the kids, the cost of that would exceed me going to sainsburys, buying a pack of fresh mince, some spaghetti, some tomato sauce and some fresh vegetables.
Why does everyone say fast food is cheap?? It really isnt. Its just fast. And sure, its ok every now and then- but dont say its cheaper to buy a Maccy D's for a family of 4 because i can proove it isnt.0 -
Did McDonalds always serve that option? The reason why they have been changing their menu to include lower calorie items is... consumer pressure.
They serve healthier options because consumer groups demand it, not because people smugly sat around saying 'it's personal responsibility!'
I don't think consumer groups and personal responsibility are mutually exclusive concepts. Consumer groups exist because some people feel it's their personal responsibility to advocate for something because they care about it. We all have that option.
There's a big difference between consumer pressure and regulatory pressure. I think what people here are saying that consumer/customer pressure is fine. That's the way that markets work.
This is also a completely different argument from "McDs made me fat."
I think maybe we're finally almost around the same page.
Also, free market dogma is a different topic altogether.0 -
And I agree that McD's is the 'scapegoat' for all fast food because they are THE giant chain. When I talk about lack of accessibility to fresh food and only fast food options, I mean all fast-food. I also mean gas stations that serve up chips and hot dogs. Yes, eating less will help with obesity, but it doesn't have the nutrition kids need. I never said there was NO personal responsibility. if you go back a few pages, my response was pretty measured saying that yes, responsibility is needed. And no restaurant 'makes' anyone fat. BUT, it's when there are no other choices. It's a bigger problem than just saying eat here or don't eat there. It's a system that disproportionately affects the poor.0
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Well Said!
We all CHOOSE to eat the crap they serve us at McDonalds, Wendys, Taco Bell,Etc etc and I am no exception.
I Know fast food is bad and I still eat it more frequently than I should. It is something I am working on eating less of. Like no more than once a week. It is not the company's fault it is out fault as patrons and parents.
I would add that schools should serve better more nutritious foods but you CANNOT force kids to eat the "healthy" good foods only at school. it needs to be at home as well. I have 2 kids and we are trying to eat out less and make food more at home.
If that means I spend my Sunday at home prepping food for the week to make my hectic week easier for meals I try to do it.
We are getting into a habit of cutting and doing as much of the initial prep on the weekend for the week so that dinner is much quicker from the time we get home so it is on the table faster and doesn't seem so overwhelming after a hard day at work or at sports or whatever.
You can't blame the companies for making crappy tasty food that just leaves us hungry an hour after we eat it.
Love this and yes you will take some flack but you are right on with your views of it. Fast should should be considered a TREAT like it was back in the day. Where as I think now a Homecooked Meal is more of a treat to kids these days.0 -
And I agree that McD's is the 'scapegoat' for all fast food because they are THE giant chain. When I talk about lack of accessibility to fresh food and only fast food options, I mean all fast-food. I also mean gas stations that serve up chips and hot dogs. Yes, eating less will help with obesity, but it doesn't have the nutrition kids need. I never said there was NO personal responsibility. if you go back a few pages, my response was pretty measured saying that yes, responsibility is needed. And no restaurant 'makes' anyone fat. BUT, it's when there are no other choices. It's a bigger problem than just saying eat here or don't eat there. It's a system that disproportionately affects the poor.
I don't disagree with you - but I am curious what you believe to be the solution to this problem? Do you think it lies with the government, or restaurant chains, or elsewhere?0 -
I think maybe you don't enjoy critically looking at problems. Which is fine, but McDonalds is part of the cheap fast food that is making people obese - it's unhealthy food that is cheap. They do have some duty towards their customers not to feed them crap. Yes, McDonalds existed when you were a kid. People became more and more obese during your lifetime so far.
Your comments about the Occupy Wall Street movements are similar.
It's possible to lose weight, but there's no known cure for conservatism/libertarianism/whatever it is that stops you seeing things in context. As Stephen Colbert pointed out, "Reality has a well-known liberal bias."
Junk food is actually not cheap. If i went to McDonalds here in the UK and bought 2 adults meals and 2 happy meals for the kids, the cost of that would exceed me going to sainsburys, buying a pack of fresh mince, some spaghetti, some tomato sauce and some fresh vegetables.
Why does everyone say fast food is cheap?? It really isnt. Its just fast. And sure, its ok every now and then- but dont say its cheaper to buy a Maccy D's for a family of 4 because i can proove it isnt.
McD's is more expensive in Europe than it is here in the states. I remember being quite surprised by that. And it doesn't taste as chemical laden as it does here.0 -
It's because it's so convenient these days. There's a Macdonalds round every corner and everything revolves around food. Kids having a bday party? Have it at Macdonalds/pizza hut/wherever. Kids don't care how many calories are in it so don't know any better. Can't be bothered cooking after work? Good job we have access to a million macdonalds within a mile! Fast food used to be a treat for kids, but now it's more just a way of life. Sure, you can't really blame macdonalds (or any other fast food company), they're just doing what any business does, trying to make money. But when it's so easy to just nip out for a quick burger than labor over cooking a nice home-cooked meal after working a 10 hour day, how much can you blame the parents really?0
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