Is BMI really BS?
Replies
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I don't think it's that complicated. If you have a lot of visible muscle and little body fat and are over the BMI scale, then you clearly are in the 10%.
I am 100% certain I am in the 90%. It isn't difficult to know simply by looking in a mirror.
How are you 100% certain? By looking in the mirror?
What des the BMI chart tell you that the mirror doesn't?-1 -
Scott, is that photo of you on your profile current and what do you weigh in it?bump. I think the BMI is total BS. For a guy my size I need to weigh between 127 and 167 to be normal. If I weighed 167 I know people would think I was dying.0 -
I never said it told me anything. What I'm saying is that BMI isn't total BS for most of the population and why. You made it seem super complicated to know whether you're in the majority or minority and I pointed out that it isn't complicated. I'm not sure why you feel the need to further challenge what I said and change your argument.I don't think it's that complicated. If you have a lot of visible muscle and little body fat and are over the BMI scale, then you clearly are in the 10%.
I am 100% certain I am in the 90%. It isn't difficult to know simply by looking in a mirror.
How are you 100% certain? By looking in the mirror?
What des the BMI chart tell you that the mirror doesn't?0 -
Oh ugh. You're right. lol
That range cannot be correct. The range (18.5 at the lowest and 24.9 at the highest) is never that small. It should be at least a 40-pound range. I don't know where these tiny, restrictive ranges are coming from.bump. I think the BMI is total BS. For a guy my size I need to weigh between 127 and 167 to be normal. If I weighed 167 I know people would think I was dying.
That is a 40 pound range.
Eh, I think BMI is one useful tool, since most of us are not outliers. I do think there are better measures of disease risk, such as waist to hip ratio.
I also agree that we are upsizing healthy body sizes, and that isn't a good thing.
I'm coming off of a 5-day migraine and been swamped at work. My brain is not functioning this morning and numbers have never been my strong suit. :-)
I know how it is. I told someone the other day that they wiped out their calorie deficit by more than half for the week when they were over by 300, since keeping daily and weekly deficits straight was too much for my tired brain to do. The derp flows like a fountain when the brain is tired.0 -
Give me one example where the BMI chart works when a mirror doesn't
When you've got a distorted body image, in either direction.
Lots of fat people actually don't seem themselves as fat. And some people have been obese so long that they pick goal weights that are still well within the overweight category, but assume that the weight is so much lower than their starting that it must be healthy.
The mirror is a great measurement if you have a clear view.
Why do you think one of the most common breaking points for people is having their picture taken? You often here people say they were shocked to see themselves in a picture somebody else took, because they thought they looked just fine in the mirror.1 -
"BMI is not always BS but it can be. Like one of the poster says, "look at Adrian Peterson". Having a lot of muscle will skew the BMI #s."
LMAO...how many people here look like Adrian Peterson? BMI is a GREAT guide for people who don't look like him or bodybuild. IMHO, the people who don't agree with BMI are the people who are considered overweight. I'm 5'5". My healthy range is 111 lbs to 149 lbs. I think I'd consider myself overweight if I was 150...not OBESE..but overweight. I agree with everything Iwishyouwell said. I'm actually about to friend that person because he made so much sense.
Yep, it's almost always people who are overweight or obese according to the BMI chart that have these vehement reactions to it.
And unfortunately for them, most of them are not muscular outliers. They're just fat and can't conceive how low their weight would need to go in order to no longer be fat.
Really? Because most of the people I've seen here disagreeing with you have given body stats that say otherwise, but clearly we're all just delusional about how fat we are.0 -
I never said it told me anything. What I'm saying is that BMI isn't total BS for most of the population and why. You made it seem super complicated to know whether you're in the majority or minority and I pointed out that it isn't complicated. I'm not sure why you feel the need to further challenge what I said and change your argument.I don't think it's that complicated. If you have a lot of visible muscle and little body fat and are over the BMI scale, then you clearly are in the 10%.
I am 100% certain I am in the 90%. It isn't difficult to know simply by looking in a mirror.
How are you 100% certain? By looking in the mirror?
What des the BMI chart tell you that the mirror doesn't?
I didn't change the argument, I added to it
You only know if you are in the 10% by looking at your body and guessing if you have enough muscle to skew the figures or not
That's not helpful in any way-1 -
I Totally agree with Iwishyouwell we hate BMI because it is telling us what we already know, it is not BS it is another tool to help us know what a healthy weight is. Yes for some people it is not accurate but for most it is, and yes I hate my BMI too but I am working it down ; )3
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"BMI is not always BS but it can be. Like one of the poster says, "look at Adrian Peterson". Having a lot of muscle will skew the BMI #s."
LMAO...how many people here look like Adrian Peterson? BMI is a GREAT guide for people who don't look like him or bodybuild. IMHO, the people who don't agree with BMI are the people who are considered overweight. I'm 5'5". My healthy range is 111 lbs to 149 lbs. I think I'd consider myself overweight if I was 150...not OBESE..but overweight. I agree with everything Iwishyouwell said. I'm actually about to friend that person because he made so much sense.
Yep, it's almost always people who are overweight or obese according to the BMI chart that have these vehement reactions to it.
And unfortunately for them, most of them are not muscular outliers. They're just fat and can't conceive how low their weight would need to go in order to no longer be fat.
Then explain how me at 41...with a BMI of 24 (top end of healthy range) with 7 more pounds would be considered overweight?
If I got to 21.5 BMI I would be 15% BF..which at my age is not healthy...for non competitor esp.
I do not consider myself a "muscular outliers"...I have a large frame tho (wear a size 8 shoe) I am 5 ft 7 currently weight 153lbs. If estimations are correct I am 25% BF which gives me about 120lbs of LBM..
It's not just about LBM either, bone densisty comes into play with weight, along with other factors...
Do I have some fat left sure do...will I ever weigh 135lbs again...heck no...my bones stick out, I look guant ...but it puts me in a healthy range BMI...and not to belabour the point I would be 15% BF...how is that an accurate measurment for a "normal" woman?1 -
Seriously, no-ones disputing your point about populations and averages...
So what is at dispute here, exactly?
Since I, from my initial posts in this thread pages ago, already stated that BMI was a fine indicator for "most people", but is useless for the outliers who have higher than typical LBM?
My entire point was, and is, that the already wide BMI scale is a fine measurement for "most" people, but ultimately the mirror and your health markers should be the most important measurements. I never said BMI was a perfect indicator, never said that it applied to all people. I simply don't believe it's bunk or that off for most people.
What are you arguing?
I explained that very clearly in my post
when used to diagnose obesity in individuals, it puts ouliers in danger of being told to lose weight when it's not healthy for them to do so, which puts their physical and mental health at risk... you replied to that part of my post earlier.
Thing is, like wonderob said... most people don't know if they fall into the majority that it does work for, or if they're an outlier that it's potentially dangerous for. And that's where the major issue is with BMI.... the damage is often done before the person learns that they're an outlier that it shouldn't apply to.
Body fat percentage, measured reliably, is a much better metric... it differs only by age and gender (i.e. it's the same regardless of height and frame size) and people know how old they are and what gender they are. If you're going to exclude people from BMI based on their lean body mass... well by the time you measure people's lean body mass in order to tell of BMI is right for them, then you may as well just calculate their body fat percentage and forget about BMI. BMI is a way to get a very approximate idea of someone's body fat percentage, which only works if you're average in your frame size... while body fat percentage measures how much actual body fat you're carrying.
(and BF% needs to be done reliably, e.g. dexa, body density measures, skinfold calipers used by someone who knows what they're doing - and even better if it's backed up by visual estimates, and 2 or 3 methods are used to eliminate error)
and body fat percentage also eliminates the problem of people saying they don't need to lose weight when they do... if your body fat percentage is too high then you should lose weight. Simple.1 -
My personal opinion is that for 90% of the population, BMI is not BS and is a good guide.
This is my point
How do we know if we are in the 90% or the 10%?
If you need to research, calculate, check, ask, work out or otherwise ascertain whether you are in the 90% for whom BMI chart works, then what's the point of the BMI chart!???
My point exactly - the hallmark of a good metric is that it be actionable in its own right, if it has to be taken into context of all other possible measure, what value does it provide per se?
It's not 'My BMI is high, I need to lose weight'.
It's, 'My BMI is high, I should measure my BF%, and body ratios to determine if I'm an outlier or not and proceed accordingly'.1 -
Give me one example where the BMI chart works when a mirror doesn't
When you've got a distorted body image, in either direction.
Lots of fat people actually don't seem themselves as fat. And some people have been obese so long that they pick goal weights that are still well within the overweight category, but assume that the weight is so much lower than their starting that it must be healthy.
The mirror is a great measurement if you have a clear view.
Why do you think one of the most common breaking points for people is having their picture taken? You often here people say they were shocked to see themselves in a picture somebody else took, because they thought they looked just fine in the mirror.
So BMI chart has gone from being a great guide, to a great guide for the 90% of the population for which the figures aren't distorted, to being SOME use to the small minority that have got a distorted body image to the extent where they cannot even tell if they are normal/overweight when they are right in the centre of that category!
How on earth is this a great guide! Seems that it benefits a very very tiny minority
Is there really anyone at all on here that can honestly say that the BMI chart was helpful to them? That they were right in the middle of the healthy or overweight category... but didn't even realise it???-1 -
I think BMI is a great starting point. If your BMI doesn't match how you feel about your self or how you think you look measure your waist.
A healthy waist for a man is below 40" and for a woman below 35". You measure it at the top of your hip across your belly button. (you may want to look this up for your self) Where you carry your weight is important for your health. This also catches the "big boned" people, and the "muscular" people. If your BMI is high and your waist to large,.. you are over weight,..but.. if your BMI is high and your waist is healthy you probably don't have much to worry about.
Yeah my waist is about 25 inches and hips 38. My waist to hip circumference is good which is why I'm confused.0 -
Do you think I should improve my BMI or is it all BS?
For the vast majority of people, the vast majority of the time, BMI is a pretty good rule of thumb. That's just reality.
You look great in the profile pic, but you also have room to lean out more, if that's your preference.
It's up to you! :drinker:0 -
Well the BMI tells me I am obese with a BMI of 30.9
A healthy range for me is 160-180.
At 6 feet tall and currently 228 - I would be terribly unhealthy imo at 160 lbs.
I guess i will always live in the overweight category since i will probably maintain my weight in the 190-200 lb range.
For me BMI is BS
So your healthy range is 160-180 lbs...
Yet your decide to maintain weight in the "overweight category"...
Yet BMI is BS?
This is what I'm talking about. When people are large, and want to stay large, then the BMI becomes BS.
Despite the fact that most 6 foot tall men would NOT look unhealthy even in their 160s. One of my closest friends is 6 foot tall, medium framed, and 168 lbs. And he's got a 30 inch waist, broad shoulders, and muscular legs and arms. The kind of body that people double take at if he wears a close fitting shirt.
This is what's becoming very common. Weights that were absolutely typical, normal, and appropriate for even men of this height just a few years ago, are more and more being looked at as "unhealthy" or too skinny.
As it stands from where I am at?
Yes BMI is BS for me!
Will my opinion change as i lose more weight??
Possibly, but I doubt it.
The last time I weighed 180, I was way to skinny, and not nearly as healthy as I am now.
We are not all created equally, what your friend looks like at 160 will probably be what i look like at 190.
But we shall see, give me a few more months!
BMI - not buying 200 year old information anymore!-1 -
If estimations are correct I am 25% BF....
"Estimating" body fat is as much of a cardinal sin as estimating calories.0 -
"BMI is not always BS but it can be. Like one of the poster says, "look at Adrian Peterson". Having a lot of muscle will skew the BMI #s."
LMAO...how many people here look like Adrian Peterson? BMI is a GREAT guide for people who don't look like him or bodybuild. IMHO, the people who don't agree with BMI are the people who are considered overweight. I'm 5'5". My healthy range is 111 lbs to 149 lbs. I think I'd consider myself overweight if I was 150...not OBESE..but overweight. I agree with everything Iwishyouwell said. I'm actually about to friend that person because he made so much sense.
Really? Is it a great guide for me? I don't look like Adrian Peterson, I don't bodybuild. I'm not overweight, yet when I was 25.5 BMI I was deemed 'Overweight' how is that a great guide?
In fact I would go further. I would say it's pretty useless
It works some of the time, for some people and works best when the results are obvious. i.e you sit in the middle of the various scales. i.e right in the middle of the normal range or right in the middle of the overweight range. There's a problem though when you're on the edges - which is pretty much the only time when you need it!
If you're in the middle of the normal range then look in the mirror - you already know you are not overweight
If you're in the middle of the overweight range then look in the mirror - you already know you're overweight
If you're on the edges of the normal/overweight range then look in the mirror - you might be able to tell, might not..... exactly the same as the BMI chart!
Give me one example where the BMI chart works when a mirror doesn't
BMI has me in the obese category - in no way does the mirror show an obese person when i look in it!
Overweight - yes but not my much.-1 -
I Totally agree with Iwishyouwell we hate BMI because it is telling us what we already know, it is not BS it is another tool to help us know what a healthy weight is. Yes for some people it is not accurate but for most it is, and yes I hate my BMI too but I am working it down ; )
if its telling you what you already know, how on earth is it a useful tool?
Is it accurate for me - I do a fair amount of heavy lifting and I'm on the cusp of normal/overweight
Is it accurate for my wife - she does some lifting but not as much as me, and she is also on the cusp
Is it accurate for you? Are you sure? Does it help you? If you're in the overweight category then like you said, you already know so BMI chart = useless
When you lose weight you will be on the cusp of healthy/overweight, then you might not be so sure if its accurate for you so BMI chart = useless.
Lose more weight and you will be well into the normal range and you will know you are so BMI chart = useless-1 -
I think BMI is a great starting point. If your BMI doesn't match how you feel about your self or how you think you look measure your waist.
A healthy waist for a man is below 40" and for a woman below 35". You measure it at the top of your hip across your belly button. (you may want to look this up for your self) Where you carry your weight is important for your health. This also catches the "big boned" people, and the "muscular" people. If your BMI is high and your waist to large,.. you are over weight,..but.. if your BMI is high and your waist is healthy you probably don't have much to worry about.
Yeah my waist is about 25 inches and hips 38. My waist to hip circumference is good which is why I'm confused.
which means it's highly unlikely that your body fat percentage is too high.
Also, if that's you in your profile pic, your body fat percentage definitely looks like it's in the healthy range. How you look in the mirror, your waist circumference and your body fat percentage are all better indicators of health than BMI. If you want more certainty, get your body fat percentage measured by someone who knows what they're doing. The healthy range for young women is 18-28%0 -
If we were to apply BMI to all the parents that drop their kids off at my kids' school it would be an appropriate measure for at least 85%-90% of the people of the potential health factors, even when 60% of those people would argue a reason the scales don't fit them for some reason...ie big bones etc. The categories, overweight, obese, etc are simply names to a category and people hate the names and freak out about them, but oddly, the people I know who claim that BMI doesn't apply to them and is offensive one day are the same people who say they need to lose a little weight another day.
There are a few people who are truly outliers and most of those people work hard to be so.
I am tiny. I am in the normal range of BMI but higher within that range than I would like to be, until the evaluator takes a look at my BF% etc and calms my butt down that while at the high end of healthy range of BMI for my height, my other fitness/health markers are exceptional.
BMI is great unless you are working hard to make it meaningless.1 -
BMI has me in the obese category - in no way does the mirror show an obese person when i look in it!
Overweight - yes but not my much.
If you are in the middle of the Obese range then most would be able to tell - Are you 35 BMI?
If you are close to overweight/obese then the BMI chart isn't accurate enough to distinguish as there are far too many unknowns so the chart is ineffective-1 -
BMI has me in the obese category - in no way does the mirror show an obese person when i look in it!
Overweight - yes but not my much.
If you are in the middle of the Obese range then most would be able to tell - Are you 35 BMI?
If you are close to overweight/obese then the BMI chart isn't accurate enough to distinguish as there are far too many unknowns so the chart is ineffective
That's my point!-1 -
au has me in the obese category - in no way does the mirror show an obese person when i look in it!
Overweight - yes but not my much.
It looks to me like you're having an emotional response to the label "obese". And that's cool. But "obese" for men just means 25% or more body fat, and judging from your photos, you are likely in that range.3 -
If estimations are correct I am 25% BF....
"Estimating" body fat is as much of a cardinal sin as estimating calories.
But the BMI chart is estimating your BF
Its using an average BF to determine if you are overweight or not - how is that in any way helpful?0 -
as to the names of the categories..we have decided as a society what obese looks like and if in our own heads we do not look like the image of obese than the rating scale must be wrong.
The scale is not wrong. Our image of obese, overweight etc is skewed. The categories were named a long time ago but the health risks within the ranges still exist no matter what you call the certain range...so call the ranges..."A little pudgier than I would like to be" " instead of "overweight.".."I mean I have weight to lose but I am not that big" ...instead of "obese"...."I am overweight."...instead of "morbidly obese" ...and the ranges are still ranges and the health factors are still the health factors.2 -
If estimations are correct I am 25% BF....
"Estimating" body fat is as much of a cardinal sin as estimating calories.
But the BMI chart is estimating your BF
Its using an average BF to determine if you are overweight or not - how is that in any way helpful?
Picking a point off of a empirically derived curve is more than just "estimating".0 -
Our image of obese, overweight etc is skewed.
This!
IMO a lot of BMI anger is in reality just another form of fat acceptance.3 -
If estimations are correct I am 25% BF....
"Estimating" body fat is as much of a cardinal sin as estimating calories.
But the BMI chart is estimating your BF
Its using an average BF to determine if you are overweight or not - how is that in any way helpful?
Picking a point off of a empirically derived curve is more than just "estimating".
No it's worse! The BMI chart is using data from lots of different people to guess MY bodyfat and tell me if I'M overweight
Let's see, the empirical data curve for people who need glasses says that at 49 years old, I will need them. This rule will work for the majority of people, the majority of the time, therefore just like the BMI chart, it a great guide!0 -
In to follow the debate later.0
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I think BMI is a great starting point. If your BMI doesn't match how you feel about your self or how you think you look measure your waist.
A healthy waist for a man is below 40" and for a woman below 35". You measure it at the top of your hip across your belly button. (you may want to look this up for your self) Where you carry your weight is important for your health. This also catches the "big boned" people, and the "muscular" people. If your BMI is high and your waist to large,.. you are over weight,..but.. if your BMI is high and your waist is healthy you probably don't have much to worry about.
Yeah my waist is about 25 inches and hips 38. My waist to hip circumference is good which is why I'm confused.
which means it's highly unlikely that your body fat percentage is too high.
Also, if that's you in your profile pic, your body fat percentage definitely looks like it's in the healthy range. How you look in the mirror, your waist circumference and your body fat percentage are all better indicators of health than BMI. If you want more certainty, get your body fat percentage measured by someone who knows what they're doing. The healthy range for young women is 18-28%
Yes, that's me in my pic. I am not thin but wouldn't describe myself as fat. I really want to get my body fat calculated to end the confusion. Is there an inexpensive way of doing this at all? I know we used to have scales that tested body fat but I have no idea where that is these days
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