Is BMI really BS?
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That range cannot be correct. The range (18.5 at the lowest and 24.9 at the highest) is never that small. It should be at least a 40-pound range. I don't know where these tiny, restrictive ranges are coming from.bump. I think the BMI is total BS. For a guy my size I need to weigh between 127 and 167 to be normal. If I weighed 167 I know people would think I was dying.0 -
I don't think it's that complicated. If you have a lot of visible muscle and little body fat and are over the BMI scale, then you clearly are in the 10%.My personal opinion is that for 90% of the population, BMI is not BS and is a good guide.
This is my point
How do we know if we are in the 90% or the 10%?
If you need to research, calculate, check, ask, work out or otherwise ascertain whether you are in the 90% for whom BMI chart works, then what's the point of the BMI chart!???
I am 100% certain I am in the 90%. It isn't difficult to know simply by looking in a mirror.1 -
I am a woman who is 5'8" and currently 167 pounds with a bf of 25% and a 31 inch waist. By every other measure, I am perfectly healthy. I can run for miles and pick up heavy things, but according to BMI I am overweight. I know, and have known for a very long time that I am an outlier, so I tend to ignore BMI. My goal weight is 160 which would put me *barely* in to the healthy weight range, but I will likely go from there in to a bulk so that won't be for very long.
If every other indicator tells you that you are healthy, then yes, I would recommend that you not pay attention to BMI. I agree some people scapegoat BMI, but there are enough of us out there that classify as outliers to make it reasonable to tell people to not use BMI as their only metric for determining health.0 -
I think BMI is a great starting point. If your BMI doesn't match how you feel about your self or how you think you look measure your waist.
A healthy waist for a man is below 40" and for a woman below 35". You measure it at the top of your hip across your belly button. (you may want to look this up for your self) Where you carry your weight is important for your health. This also catches the "big boned" people, and the "muscular" people. If your BMI is high and your waist to large,.. you are over weight,..but.. if your BMI is high and your waist is healthy you probably don't have much to worry about.1 -
No, it's not BS. BMI is a generalization that will work for generally most people. It's become very common these days to attack BMI due to the outliers who have a higher than typical muscle mass, and thus for whom BMI is of little use. However the vast majority of people aren't rocking the amount of additional lean mass needed to skew the BMI radically.
The heart of the matter, for many, is that they hate that BMI tells them they're still too fat. A lot of people have come to loathe the old height/weight chart ranges and BMI because they point to the fact that we've, on the whole, lost perspective of just how small most people need to be in order to not be overweight. Especially here in the US we've become very, very skewed about appropriate weight and BMI.
As far as your own personal goals, are your health markers good? When looking in the mirror do you have excess fat that you're unhappy with? When you say you "dislike" your body, what exactly do you dislike? That there is still too much fat mass or are you talking about other parts that are unchangeable (naturally speaking)?
speaking as an outlier... I was told as an adolescent that I had to "be careful" because I was "almost overweight" by a well meaning adult, and told by another adult who should have known better, that I need to lose 10kg (22lb) based on BMI alone... I had visible upper abs at the time, my body fat percentage would have been around 18-20%.... very dangerous advice, both in terms of my physical and mental health.
the problem is, while you're correct when BMI is applied to the average person, people who are outliers may not know that they are outliers, and most really don't know the difference between someone who has a high body fat percentage and someone who has a healthy body fat percentage and a high lean body mass for their height. It took my studying human sciences at degree level to understand that I'm an outlier and should take BMI with a pinch of salt, unfortunately I'd already suffered several years of disordered eating due to thinking I was too fat when I wasn't at all. And outliers are more common than people think, because most people don't really understand much about statistics and human variation.
Really posts like the OP's rings alarm bells for me, because if she is like me, then she should absolutely NOT feel that she should have a lower BMI just to be more average... to attempt that could result in her harming her health rather than helping it. Yes outliers are rarer and statistically speaking it's *more likely* that she's not an outlier... but we do exist and are not all that rare, and someone on an internet forum can't tell the difference.
OP: get your body fat percentage measured in a reliable way. If that's in the healthy range, then forget this idea of losing extra weight just to be in a certain place on a BMI chart. Body fat percentage is a direct measure of how much fat there is in your body. If it's in the healthy range, you don't have too much fat and your health is not at risk, regardless of what your BMI is (BMI is just a very crude way to estimate whether someone has too much body fat - body fat percentage actually measures how much fat you have). If your BF% is above 28% then losing more fat until it's in the healthy range (18-28%) is a good idea. Losing a little fat to be a lower number within the healthy range is fine too, but it's a purely cosmetic adjustment which won't affect your health either way. Some people like how their bodies look better at a particular percentage rather than another... I think I look best at around 23% body fat. But in terms of health, if it's in the healthy range then you have the right amount of body fat for good health.
I also was told by my doctor as a adolescent that based on the charts I was considered overweight and close to obese. I was a competitive figure skater. That doctor's appointment forever skewed my thoughts about my weight and set me on the track that I have been on ever since. I was 5'5" and 150 lbs. But I had super muscular thighs. And after that doctor's appointment I felt fat compared to most of my friends. It wasn't until recently that I measured my body fat percentage for the first time. According to that I am in the "Acceptable" range. Still not where I want to be but a much more realistic scale for me. I still have a ton of muscle in my legs. And yes it is covered by a layer of fat. But as that fat comes off I am seeing that my thighs will still always be bigger than most women that I know. The only way to change that would be to lose muscle and I'm not ok with that!
So I recommend taking multiple types of measurements and looking at them all. And not just focusing on one measurement that is very generic.0 -
That range cannot be correct. The range (18.5 at the lowest and 24.9 at the highest) is never that small. It should be at least a 40-pound range. I don't know where these tiny, restrictive ranges are coming from.bump. I think the BMI is total BS. For a guy my size I need to weigh between 127 and 167 to be normal. If I weighed 167 I know people would think I was dying.
That is a 40 pound range.
Eh, I think BMI is one useful tool, since most of us are not outliers. I do think there are better measures of disease risk, such as waist to hip ratio.
I also agree that we are upsizing healthy body sizes, and that isn't a good thing.1 -
Oh ugh. You're right. lol
That range cannot be correct. The range (18.5 at the lowest and 24.9 at the highest) is never that small. It should be at least a 40-pound range. I don't know where these tiny, restrictive ranges are coming from.bump. I think the BMI is total BS. For a guy my size I need to weigh between 127 and 167 to be normal. If I weighed 167 I know people would think I was dying.
That is a 40 pound range.
Eh, I think BMI is one useful tool, since most of us are not outliers. I do think there are better measures of disease risk, such as waist to hip ratio.
I also agree that we are upsizing healthy body sizes, and that isn't a good thing.
I'm coming off of a 5-day migraine and been swamped at work. My brain is not functioning this morning and numbers have never been my strong suit. :-)0 -
bump. I think the BMI is total BS. For a guy my size I need to weigh between 127 and 167 to be normal. If I weighed 167 I know people would think I was dying.
If you were never fat, and everyone you know met you at 167 lbs, nobody would think you were "dying".2 -
"BMI is not always BS but it can be. Like one of the poster says, "look at Adrian Peterson". Having a lot of muscle will skew the BMI #s."
LMAO...how many people here look like Adrian Peterson? BMI is a GREAT guide for people who don't look like him or bodybuild. IMHO, the people who don't agree with BMI are the people who are considered overweight. I'm 5'5". My healthy range is 111 lbs to 149 lbs. I think I'd consider myself overweight if I was 150...not OBESE..but overweight. I agree with everything Iwishyouwell said. I'm actually about to friend that person because he made so much sense.
Really? Is it a great guide for me? I don't look like Adrian Peterson, I don't bodybuild. I'm not overweight, yet when I was 25.5 BMI I was deemed 'Overweight' how is that a great guide?
In fact I would go further. I would say it's pretty useless
It works some of the time, for some people and works best when the results are obvious. i.e you sit in the middle of the various scales. i.e right in the middle of the normal range or right in the middle of the overweight range. There's a problem though when you're on the edges - which is pretty much the only time when you need it!
If you're in the middle of the normal range then look in the mirror - you already know you are not overweight
If you're in the middle of the overweight range then look in the mirror - you already know you're overweight
If you're on the edges of the normal/overweight range then look in the mirror - you might be able to tell, might not..... exactly the same as the BMI chart!
Give me one example where the BMI chart works when a mirror doesn't-1 -
"BMI is not always BS but it can be. Like one of the poster says, "look at Adrian Peterson". Having a lot of muscle will skew the BMI #s."
LMAO...how many people here look like Adrian Peterson? BMI is a GREAT guide for people who don't look like him or bodybuild. IMHO, the people who don't agree with BMI are the people who are considered overweight. I'm 5'5". My healthy range is 111 lbs to 149 lbs. I think I'd consider myself overweight if I was 150...not OBESE..but overweight. I agree with everything Iwishyouwell said. I'm actually about to friend that person because he made so much sense.
Yep, it's almost always people who are overweight or obese according to the BMI chart that have these vehement reactions to it.
And unfortunately for them, most of them are not muscular outliers. They're just fat and can't conceive how low their weight would need to go in order to no longer be fat.2 -
I don't think it's that complicated. If you have a lot of visible muscle and little body fat and are over the BMI scale, then you clearly are in the 10%.
I am 100% certain I am in the 90%. It isn't difficult to know simply by looking in a mirror.
How are you 100% certain? By looking in the mirror?
What des the BMI chart tell you that the mirror doesn't?-1 -
Scott, is that photo of you on your profile current and what do you weigh in it?bump. I think the BMI is total BS. For a guy my size I need to weigh between 127 and 167 to be normal. If I weighed 167 I know people would think I was dying.0 -
I never said it told me anything. What I'm saying is that BMI isn't total BS for most of the population and why. You made it seem super complicated to know whether you're in the majority or minority and I pointed out that it isn't complicated. I'm not sure why you feel the need to further challenge what I said and change your argument.I don't think it's that complicated. If you have a lot of visible muscle and little body fat and are over the BMI scale, then you clearly are in the 10%.
I am 100% certain I am in the 90%. It isn't difficult to know simply by looking in a mirror.
How are you 100% certain? By looking in the mirror?
What des the BMI chart tell you that the mirror doesn't?0 -
Oh ugh. You're right. lol
That range cannot be correct. The range (18.5 at the lowest and 24.9 at the highest) is never that small. It should be at least a 40-pound range. I don't know where these tiny, restrictive ranges are coming from.bump. I think the BMI is total BS. For a guy my size I need to weigh between 127 and 167 to be normal. If I weighed 167 I know people would think I was dying.
That is a 40 pound range.
Eh, I think BMI is one useful tool, since most of us are not outliers. I do think there are better measures of disease risk, such as waist to hip ratio.
I also agree that we are upsizing healthy body sizes, and that isn't a good thing.
I'm coming off of a 5-day migraine and been swamped at work. My brain is not functioning this morning and numbers have never been my strong suit. :-)
I know how it is. I told someone the other day that they wiped out their calorie deficit by more than half for the week when they were over by 300, since keeping daily and weekly deficits straight was too much for my tired brain to do. The derp flows like a fountain when the brain is tired.0 -
Give me one example where the BMI chart works when a mirror doesn't
When you've got a distorted body image, in either direction.
Lots of fat people actually don't seem themselves as fat. And some people have been obese so long that they pick goal weights that are still well within the overweight category, but assume that the weight is so much lower than their starting that it must be healthy.
The mirror is a great measurement if you have a clear view.
Why do you think one of the most common breaking points for people is having their picture taken? You often here people say they were shocked to see themselves in a picture somebody else took, because they thought they looked just fine in the mirror.1 -
"BMI is not always BS but it can be. Like one of the poster says, "look at Adrian Peterson". Having a lot of muscle will skew the BMI #s."
LMAO...how many people here look like Adrian Peterson? BMI is a GREAT guide for people who don't look like him or bodybuild. IMHO, the people who don't agree with BMI are the people who are considered overweight. I'm 5'5". My healthy range is 111 lbs to 149 lbs. I think I'd consider myself overweight if I was 150...not OBESE..but overweight. I agree with everything Iwishyouwell said. I'm actually about to friend that person because he made so much sense.
Yep, it's almost always people who are overweight or obese according to the BMI chart that have these vehement reactions to it.
And unfortunately for them, most of them are not muscular outliers. They're just fat and can't conceive how low their weight would need to go in order to no longer be fat.
Really? Because most of the people I've seen here disagreeing with you have given body stats that say otherwise, but clearly we're all just delusional about how fat we are.0 -
I never said it told me anything. What I'm saying is that BMI isn't total BS for most of the population and why. You made it seem super complicated to know whether you're in the majority or minority and I pointed out that it isn't complicated. I'm not sure why you feel the need to further challenge what I said and change your argument.I don't think it's that complicated. If you have a lot of visible muscle and little body fat and are over the BMI scale, then you clearly are in the 10%.
I am 100% certain I am in the 90%. It isn't difficult to know simply by looking in a mirror.
How are you 100% certain? By looking in the mirror?
What des the BMI chart tell you that the mirror doesn't?
I didn't change the argument, I added to it
You only know if you are in the 10% by looking at your body and guessing if you have enough muscle to skew the figures or not
That's not helpful in any way-1 -
I Totally agree with Iwishyouwell we hate BMI because it is telling us what we already know, it is not BS it is another tool to help us know what a healthy weight is. Yes for some people it is not accurate but for most it is, and yes I hate my BMI too but I am working it down ; )3
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"BMI is not always BS but it can be. Like one of the poster says, "look at Adrian Peterson". Having a lot of muscle will skew the BMI #s."
LMAO...how many people here look like Adrian Peterson? BMI is a GREAT guide for people who don't look like him or bodybuild. IMHO, the people who don't agree with BMI are the people who are considered overweight. I'm 5'5". My healthy range is 111 lbs to 149 lbs. I think I'd consider myself overweight if I was 150...not OBESE..but overweight. I agree with everything Iwishyouwell said. I'm actually about to friend that person because he made so much sense.
Yep, it's almost always people who are overweight or obese according to the BMI chart that have these vehement reactions to it.
And unfortunately for them, most of them are not muscular outliers. They're just fat and can't conceive how low their weight would need to go in order to no longer be fat.
Then explain how me at 41...with a BMI of 24 (top end of healthy range) with 7 more pounds would be considered overweight?
If I got to 21.5 BMI I would be 15% BF..which at my age is not healthy...for non competitor esp.
I do not consider myself a "muscular outliers"...I have a large frame tho (wear a size 8 shoe) I am 5 ft 7 currently weight 153lbs. If estimations are correct I am 25% BF which gives me about 120lbs of LBM..
It's not just about LBM either, bone densisty comes into play with weight, along with other factors...
Do I have some fat left sure do...will I ever weigh 135lbs again...heck no...my bones stick out, I look guant ...but it puts me in a healthy range BMI...and not to belabour the point I would be 15% BF...how is that an accurate measurment for a "normal" woman?1 -
Seriously, no-ones disputing your point about populations and averages...
So what is at dispute here, exactly?
Since I, from my initial posts in this thread pages ago, already stated that BMI was a fine indicator for "most people", but is useless for the outliers who have higher than typical LBM?
My entire point was, and is, that the already wide BMI scale is a fine measurement for "most" people, but ultimately the mirror and your health markers should be the most important measurements. I never said BMI was a perfect indicator, never said that it applied to all people. I simply don't believe it's bunk or that off for most people.
What are you arguing?
I explained that very clearly in my post
when used to diagnose obesity in individuals, it puts ouliers in danger of being told to lose weight when it's not healthy for them to do so, which puts their physical and mental health at risk... you replied to that part of my post earlier.
Thing is, like wonderob said... most people don't know if they fall into the majority that it does work for, or if they're an outlier that it's potentially dangerous for. And that's where the major issue is with BMI.... the damage is often done before the person learns that they're an outlier that it shouldn't apply to.
Body fat percentage, measured reliably, is a much better metric... it differs only by age and gender (i.e. it's the same regardless of height and frame size) and people know how old they are and what gender they are. If you're going to exclude people from BMI based on their lean body mass... well by the time you measure people's lean body mass in order to tell of BMI is right for them, then you may as well just calculate their body fat percentage and forget about BMI. BMI is a way to get a very approximate idea of someone's body fat percentage, which only works if you're average in your frame size... while body fat percentage measures how much actual body fat you're carrying.
(and BF% needs to be done reliably, e.g. dexa, body density measures, skinfold calipers used by someone who knows what they're doing - and even better if it's backed up by visual estimates, and 2 or 3 methods are used to eliminate error)
and body fat percentage also eliminates the problem of people saying they don't need to lose weight when they do... if your body fat percentage is too high then you should lose weight. Simple.1
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