Hunting vs. Endangered Hunting
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Montana is a difficult place to practice non-violence toward animals. Because humans.
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Montana is a difficult place to practice non-violence toward animals. Because humans.
It's their fault for being so tasty.0 -
Our white tail deer population is out of control, I have no problem with thinning out their numbers.0
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there are no cons to hunting. im not a hunter, but i say hunt away and the whole endangered list is such a stupid thing anyway. Endangered lists is causing the entire drought in california.
wut?
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052970204619004574318621482123090
Your basis that the Endangered Species Act is causing the California Drought is from an opinion piece from 2009? No peer reviewed scientific studies or anything? I bet I could find some that say there are cons to hunting if it's not done properly, or that we have too many people living in areas of the US where water is not plentiful enough to sustain the population.
that was one quick example. Im not your google machine lol. The drought IS man made based on environmental wacko decisions.
Actually, the "drought" is simply the land returning to its natural state, before the dams and reservoirs were built, creating all of that artificial farmland.0 -
Same with the alligators here in FloridaOur white tail deer population is out of control, I have no problem with thinning out their numbers.0 -
there are no cons to hunting. im not a hunter, but i say hunt away and the whole endangered list is such a stupid thing anyway. Endangered lists is causing the entire drought in california.
wut?
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052970204619004574318621482123090
Your basis that the Endangered Species Act is causing the California Drought is from an opinion piece from 2009? No peer reviewed scientific studies or anything? I bet I could find some that say there are cons to hunting if it's not done properly, or that we have too many people living in areas of the US where water is not plentiful enough to sustain the population.
that was one quick example. Im not your google machine lol. The drought IS man made based on environmental wacko decisions.
Sorry, but your statement is pretty crazy, and has no support even from the link you posted. If anything, you could say human over population caused drought. If you read the opinion article you posted (not a study), it only says that because people are prevented from taking past a certain amount of water out of the human made water redirection system, that farms are dying in an area. Again this means PEOPLE over populated an area, where there is not enough water originally, and because there is now reduced water falling from the sky and a law preventing taking over a certain amount of the flowing water from that area, it is causing some farms to die. It does not say an endangered list caused the drought.
There is also no guarantee there is anywhere near enough water to stop the drought even if they took ALL the water. The reason? There are two huge obvious things you are forgetting: this valley, and many other now populated and farmed areas in CA were MAN MADE into a agricultural or liveable area by capturing and diverting water, so it is actually "normal" to be not enough water to farm, and the normal state is in "drought" ALL THE TIME, not just recently. But probably the most important issue here is that it is not just the people in that valley who want water and who would take it, were all the protections lifted. It is people ALL OVER the state, and even people in other states could take water from California's flowing water systems...who is to guarantee there would be ANY left for that "poor little town" were protections lifted, who is to say where this water would be diverted to? Probably not as much would go to the "poor little town" as you might think, but to population centers, where the money and power is.
So this is not cause and effect at all, you cannot blame over population of an area based on man made water re-direction on an endangered species list, and a piece of paper sure didn't affect rain falling out of the sky, and even completely taking all protections and limits on water away would probably not "solve" that town's problem the way you think it would, and...it certainly didn't cause the drought as you say, that's a forehead slapper.
Now whether the laws need to be looked at and water flow re-direction changed is another issue, but I just had to address the ridiculousness of that bogus statement.
I think this was the best answer to the thread topic though:I don't really understand trophy hunting.
Good job - you murdered an animal to decorate your home. You're so cool.
Hunting for food, and population control, I have no issue with.0 -
Montana is a difficult place to practice non-violence toward animals. Because humans.
It's their fault for being so tasty.
:huh:0 -
I found this on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test
theory of mind is an interesting one that I remember studying at university, i.e. understanding that other individuals don't know the same things you know - the evidence for this comes from animals exploiting this knowledge to deceive others. Baboons have a theory of mind, and are deceitful... e.g. hiding food from other baboons, mating in secret - this is done in ways that show that they understand that another animal doesn't see the same view of the world as they do, e.g. subordinate males hiding behind things to mate with females (the alpha doesn't let them do this, so they do it where the alpha can't see them)... stuff like that. There's less on that in non-humans on wikipedia, but there is a little: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind
Ok, so it looks like I wasn't too far off. I know I've seen the theory of mind type observations done in primates but I can't recall how much I've seen it used outside of primates. Of course the biggest problem, and they mentioned this in the wiki article, is the whole umwelt issue and our tendency to design anthropocentric testing apparatus. This is one that drives me nuts when discussing toothed whales. For goodness sake their primary sense is SONAR, how on earth are you going to accurately test their intelligence etc. when we can't even match their sensory capabilities? And then you have the octopuses which aren't even vertebrate.....
Anyways, most of these types of issues are still VERY hotly debated, but I generally tend to err on the side of us underestimating when it comes to most animals since there are likely scores of issues we're missing, such as with the elephant subsonic communication, or whales that use specific water density layers to communicate long distance.
Ooooh, just found this one. Hard to argue sentience when it looks like they respond to their names.
http://www.pnas.org/content/110/32/132160 -
^^^Correct (at least from what I have been reading as well.)
Stand your bacon ground now! We had a high five about this!
Yes, it appears I may have to resign myself to being more hypocritical than previously thought... BUT they only used the mirrors to investigate their environment, never mind that they probably just didn't give a crap about why that crazy person was drawing dots on them....0 -
Even some animals such as the elephant need to be hunted in some areas. Take for example, Botswana. Elephants in that country are overpopulated, and not only destroy crops, but are deforesting the country. The elephants will come in huge herds, pushing over trees to eat the tender leaves near the top....then move on to push over more. They trample and destroy farmers' fields and villagers gardens. In these poverty stricken areas, a hunter comes in from the United States, or wherever, bringing a huge amount of money into the economy. They pay a license fee, they pay the outfitter, and the trackers, who are local. When they kill an elephant, that is usually selected specifically because of its destructive nature......they immediately pay another huge fee that goes into the local economy. (often in excess of $50,000) Then, the local people typically are allowed to skin the elephant and they use all of its flesh for food....food that they would not otherwise have. The hunter gets the trophy, the excitement of the chase, and the memories of the hunt, and the environment and the local economy is boosted because of it.
By this logic we should start hunting humans...aren't we the most destructive animals of all? We destroy much more of the enviroment than any other animal on the planet and push all the other species around as we please. Just playing devils advocate...
That actually might be a good sport. Have you ever read "The Most Dangerous Game"?
LOL, I have not yet read that book, I should, though!0 -
^^^Correct (at least from what I have been reading as well.)
Stand your bacon ground now! We had a high five about this!
Yes, it appears I may have to resign myself to being more hypocritical than previously thought... BUT they only used the mirrors to investigate their environment, never mind that they probably just didn't give a crap about why that crazy person was drawing dots on them....
I am actually reading up on some more recent studies that I have had yet to see until now. Who knows what anyone actually knows...
I just believe animals feel things. And I believe hunting is good and right. And I believe farm practices should ignite a debate and discussion faster than any hunting controversy.
And I KNOW bacon is delicious and I will keep eating it even if a pig himself tells me verbally, in English, not to.0 -
Even some animals such as the elephant need to be hunted in some areas. Take for example, Botswana. Elephants in that country are overpopulated, and not only destroy crops, but are deforesting the country. The elephants will come in huge herds, pushing over trees to eat the tender leaves near the top....then move on to push over more. They trample and destroy farmers' fields and villagers gardens. In these poverty stricken areas, a hunter comes in from the United States, or wherever, bringing a huge amount of money into the economy. They pay a license fee, they pay the outfitter, and the trackers, who are local. When they kill an elephant, that is usually selected specifically because of its destructive nature......they immediately pay another huge fee that goes into the local economy. (often in excess of $50,000) Then, the local people typically are allowed to skin the elephant and they use all of its flesh for food....food that they would not otherwise have. The hunter gets the trophy, the excitement of the chase, and the memories of the hunt, and the environment and the local economy is boosted because of it.
By this logic we should start hunting humans...aren't we the most destructive animals of all? We destroy much more of the enviroment than any other animal on the planet and push all the other species around as we please. Just playing devils advocate...
Ironically, it's the few remaining hunter-gatherer populations that do the least amount of environmental damage and who have the most sustainable lifestyles. Hunter-gathering has been proven to be the most long lasting ecological strategy, neanderthals and their ancestors lived for 600,000+ years as hunter-gatherers in Europe... Homo erectus lasted over a million years... Homo sapiens only evolved 160,000 years ago and lived exclusively as hunter-gatherers until 10,000 years ago..... and in less than 10,000 years, non-hunter-gatherer Homo sapiens have done a huge amount of damage to the environment and need to make some pretty drastic changes if they're to stand any chance of lasting as long as earlier human species.
so by that logic, maybe we should ban agriculture and industry and only allow hunting and gathering as a means to get food, and let natural selection take care of the overpopulation........
(not really suggesting this, just playing devil's advocate)
I totally agree with you. I'm not against hunting, but I thought it was a little ironic to suggest we should hunt endangered species because they are destroying things :flowerforyou:0 -
South Africa particularly has lots of 'reserves'''.IE afew hectares of land where they house lions, elephants etc etc....Lions are bred there, and volunteers pay large amounts of money to go and help 'conservation'...they hand feed the lion cubs who are taken away from their mothers at afew days old..so that the mothers will breed some more..Just like the dog breeding centres...
When the lions are too big for petting, they are sold off to 'canned hunting' reserves..
This again is a reserve of afew hectares..and is fenced so the animals can't escape...
It is in these places that many of these big brave HUNTERS go to get there 'trophies''''
Is it sport??? Is it hell !!!!
The animals are used to human contact so are not afraid of humans at all..In addition some are drugged to make it an easier shot....
Anyone who has been to the Serengetti in Tanzania will have seen prides of lions lying under trees not in the least bit afraid of humans because there have been millions through there every year...When I was there a couple of cheetahs moved amongst the 12 jeeps that had lined up to see them..lions pass in front afew feet from you..It is absolutely bloody fantastic to see them...but how anyone shoot them is beyond my comprehension.
The Kendall girl is trying to make a name for herself on American TV....and had a camera crew following her when she shot those animals..
Sport? Hunting? Don't make me laugh....
Like shooting ducks in a barrell.....
Cruel and unusual punishment for these animals...Sentent beings that have families, hearts and emotions just like humans....
and don't let them kid you that the villagers benefit from anything...the major bulk of money goes to the safari organiser which generally isn't even African...
Sick people do sick things..and these are the worst!
Thank you for writing this so that I didn't have to...This is 100% true. Remember that foreign countries (especially those struggling financially to live) don't work under the same ethical rules that well off people from first world countries do. Just because there isn't a big bull elephant to "cull" at the moment doesn't mean a nice shiny $1000 pay off wont get it for you. There are amazing people in Africa working to protect these populations, but they are far outnumbered by the corrupt, indifferent, poor people trying to feed their families.
I won't get into the ethics or sanity of rich people paying a ton of money to fly overseas just to kill something...thats not up to me to judge.
As someone who works with animals (Biologist, zoo employee), I agree hunting prey animals is fine morally if you're eating it, and a definite necessity as far as population control. Keep in mind, though, that of course the main reason we have to do this kind of population control is because we humans have spread like cockroaches and taken over most of the animals land and resources.
As someone who works with elephants, lions, pigs and lots more:
Elephants are VERY self aware and do feel emotions and mourn.
Lions in those reserves do NOT fear people, and are not hard to kill. No sport there. It's just murder.
Pigs are definately smarter than dogs. (And just as adorable. But, yes, I love bacon too.)0 -
^^^Correct (at least from what I have been reading as well.)
Stand your bacon ground now! We had a high five about this!
Yes, it appears I may have to resign myself to being more hypocritical than previously thought... BUT they only used the mirrors to investigate their environment, never mind that they probably just didn't give a crap about why that crazy person was drawing dots on them....
I am actually reading up on some more recent studies that I have had yet to see until now. Who knows what anyone actually knows...
I just believe animals feel things. And I believe hunting is good and right. And I believe farm practices should ignite a debate and discussion faster than any hunting controversy.
And I KNOW bacon is delicious and I will keep eating it even if a pig himself tells me verbally, in English, not to.
I'm also fairly certain said pig would be more than happy to dine on long pork if given the same opportunity so ethics be damned!0 -
There is a HUGE difference between managed exotic/endangered animal hunts and poaching. Doesn't compare.
Many of the communities (abroad - especially Africa) that have the exotic/endangered animals maintain habit so the hunts can continue and the money/meat supports the locals.
I know people who have been to Africa, New Zealand, and South America for special hunts. They often had to wait for one to 5 years before they could actually go.
And, here in Central Missouri, we have an exotic animal sanctuary where they have many cats...lions, Bengal tigers, ligers, mountain lions, etc. They have these animals because idiots get them for pets and then their dog gets invited for - ahem - dinner...and they get rid of the animal. We local hunters supply them with deer, geese, & ducks to feed these magnificent animals. look them up...
http://ddfarmanimalsanctuary.wordpress.com/0 -
^^^Correct (at least from what I have been reading as well.)
Stand your bacon ground now! We had a high five about this!
Yes, it appears I may have to resign myself to being more hypocritical than previously thought... BUT they only used the mirrors to investigate their environment, never mind that they probably just didn't give a crap about why that crazy person was drawing dots on them....
I am actually reading up on some more recent studies that I have had yet to see until now. Who knows what anyone actually knows...
I just believe animals feel things. And I believe hunting is good and right. And I believe farm practices should ignite a debate and discussion faster than any hunting controversy.
And I KNOW bacon is delicious and I will keep eating it even if a pig himself tells me verbally, in English, not to.
I'm also fairly certain said pig would be more than happy to dine on long pork if given the same opportunity so ethics be damned!
Absolutely!0 -
And the deer population wouldn't be out of control if we didnt hunt and kill wolves or encroach on their habitat. Humans created the problem of over population in deer by removing the predators.
Also, I do not eat meat, dairy or eggs. I don't contribute anything towards animal suffering. That includes hunting.0 -
Also, the girl who said she would eat bacon even if the pig "asked" her not to... You are an absolutely vile human.0
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bump for later, but trophy hunters are douches until I return0
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And the deer population wouldn't be out of control if we didnt hunt and kill wolves or encroach on their habitat. Humans created the problem of over population in deer by removing the predators.
Also, I do not eat meat, dairy or eggs. I don't contribute anything towards animal suffering. That includes hunting.
Well hello All Mighty!0 -
Also, the girl who said she would eat bacon even if the pig "asked" her not to... You are an absolutely vile human.
So how much time do you spend in the field actively researching on conservation and ecological sustainability? Or educating the public about responsible animal and environmental management?0 -
there are no cons to hunting. im not a hunter, but i say hunt away and the whole endangered list is such a stupid thing anyway. Endangered lists is causing the entire drought in california.
wut?
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052970204619004574318621482123090
Your basis that the Endangered Species Act is causing the California Drought is from an opinion piece from 2009? No peer reviewed scientific studies or anything? I bet I could find some that say there are cons to hunting if it's not done properly, or that we have too many people living in areas of the US where water is not plentiful enough to sustain the population.
that was one quick example. Im not your google machine lol. The drought IS man made based on environmental wacko decisions.
And our severe lack of rainfall isn't a huge factor? No.0 -
What makes the animal exotic? Is it because we do not have it in our back yards. If it is done professionally and by the law, I say hunt away. If it is posted online, I am sure it was done legally, right!!0
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And the deer population wouldn't be out of control if we didnt hunt and kill wolves or encroach on their habitat. Humans created the problem of over population in deer by removing the predators.
Also, I do not eat meat, dairy or eggs. I don't contribute anything towards animal suffering. That includes hunting.
Well hello All Mighty!
^^^:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: ^^^0 -
Also, the girl who said she would eat bacon even if the pig "asked" her not to... You are an absolutely vile human.
So how much time do you spend in the field actively researching on conservation and ecological sustainability? Or educating the public about responsible animal and environmental management?
Quite a bit since I have a degree in animal science and working my way to veterinary school so I can work with exotic animals making sure they are getting the best treatment and enrichment possible.0 -
Also, the girl who said she would eat bacon even if the pig "asked" her not to... You are an absolutely vile human.
No, she is not a vile person. She is actually a very nice, smart, funny and educated young lady. And just FYI, on a good day, if you lick her, she actually TASTES like bacon....♥0 -
Also, the girl who said she would eat bacon even if the pig "asked" her not to... You are an absolutely vile human.
So how much time do you spend in the field actively researching on conservation and ecological sustainability? Or educating the public about responsible animal and environmental management?
Quite a bit since I have a degree in animal science and working my way to veterinary school so I can work with exotic animals making sure they are getting the best treatment and enrichment possible.
Then you might want to consider your approach. As someone who has been working in marine ecology and behavior for a while, calling people vile human beings doesn't usually encourage people to listen to what I have to say. I'm not a fan of shark fining but I do not call my students (or their parents) vile human beings because their parents happen to own a restaurant that serves shark fin soup.
ETA: Personal attacks are against the rules and you can be reported.0 -
Did you know that most makeup is tested on lab animals?And the deer population wouldn't be out of control if we didnt hunt and kill wolves or encroach on their habitat. Humans created the problem of over population in deer by removing the predators.
Also, I do not eat meat, dairy or eggs. I don't contribute anything towards animal suffering. That includes hunting.
How about those leather shoes and belt?0 -
So bears and mountain lions and wolves are disgusting? We're predators too, we're just the most highly intelligent and have developed technological tools for hunting, since we don't have claws and can't run as fast as alot of our prey. Why do you think we developed canine teeth hmm? Hunting isn't disgusting or cruel, it just IS (as in it's a fact of life, get used to it).any kind of hunting is pretty pathetic and disgusting
my dad is a hunter so I grew up with it and have been around it my entire life
zero respect for it0
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