Do you believe in strictly Calories In - Calories Out?

Birder155

If you're thyroid stops functioning and you start eating less, you will not gain weight.

I have to politely disagree with this statement.

In preparation for my radiation treatment for thyroid cancer (my thyroid was removed) I had to stop taking my thyroid meds and I had to follow, and was 100% compliant, a very restrictive diet. I was was eating less than 1200 calories per day.
I gained 15 pounds.

lindsey1979

Calories in - calories out is 100% correct. For weightloss. However if you want to be healthy, you also want to make sure your macros are good too.

I think this says it all... end of argument.

Not all energy is created equally.

Conservation of energy: energy cannot be created nor can it be destroyed. It can only change from one state into another.

Also requires a closed system. The human body is not a closed system.

But humans can only gain energy from eating. So as long as you use more energy than you're eating, mass will decrease. If we could absorb energy from wind or sunlight, then we'd have a problem with CICO being invalid.

Yes, but both sides of the equation are affected by (1) how much food is actually absorbed -- that throws off your CI part and (2) other energy expended that's not fully captured, like heat, on the CO part. We try to measure those as much as we can through the caloric value of food and things like RMR testing, but it's not fully accurate.

That's why most people estimate their CO by looking at their weight loss results and working backwards. But there is a lot of error there since 1 lb of fat creates about 3500 calories of energy and 1 lb of muscle creates somewhere between 600 and 1700 calories. So, even when you lost 1 lb, there is not a great way to reverse engineer that calculation. Then you have issues about how your macros result in different weight and fat losses, which makes the calculations even more of educated guesses.

How much food is absorbed can only go down from the amount of calories you eat, which is good if you're trying to lose.

Btw. I read through your study completely now. As said, the ones who lost least lost about as much as was expected. Their conclusion about the ones who lost more lost weight because "we don't know, maybe TEE or more burn from being more active, or undereating, maybe something to do with something someone else noticed that some people's calories burned while sleeping would change significantly on different diets. Tl;Dr;: there has to be more studies done"

This.

Plus the sample size was really small. n=6 isn't adequate to get meaningful results. Maybe some people exercised more than others and didn't mention it (they felt better and so moved more). Or maybe TDEE was miscalcuated for a few people. Or maybe some people were using measuring cups instead of a food scale. Or maybe some people were just guesstimating serving sizes. When a study is performed in a non-controlled environment (the subjects weren't kept in a hospital or anything, they were at home) and the sample size is small, the results are pretty null.

I'm not saying that the conclusions aren't true. But they need to do a better controlled study with more people to validate it.

Well the foods were given to them so the serving sizes can be assumed to have been accurate.
What I also noticed is that there was no mention of lbm retention. Since lindsey said 1 pound of muscle only yields 600-something calories, the ones with higher weight loss might have lost more lbm?

From what I've seen, there is disagreement as to 1 lb of muscle -- some say 600 calories are released, some go as high as 1700. So, yes, it's totally possible that the higher weight loss is due to catabolism of more muscle than fat. Also, something people wanting to lose weight will or should care about.

albayin

Yes, CI can be affected by obtuse factors like excretion and poor metabolism, but it will never become a larger amount of energy than it contains.

That's really poorly worded but my head hurts so screw it :P

And that's really the point - factors can and do affect both CI and CO, but at the end of the day if CI is less* than CO weightloss WILL occur.


*scientifically, not just assumed to be

None of the rest of this discussion invalidates that.

Exactly. What is on the food box is the maximum amount of energy that can be obtained by the food in a 100% efficient system. Our bodies will never actually reach that efficiency and some people might get less calorically than others from the same foods. That said you would NEVER get more calories than what is stated on the box.

Having some major digestive issues or a tapeworm does not somehow invalidate CICO though, just means your CI is much lower than you might expect from what is written on the box.

Not 100% true, the numbers on the box are just an average too, so the actual amount could be higher. So you could technically absorb more calories than stated on the box, but never more than the food actually contained.

Nutritional labels can be off by 20% so if you are eating a lot of processed foods you may actually be consuming as much as 20% more calories than you think you are.

20% off? wow, I have been wondering about this for quite some time...

lindsey1979

Okay, then how do isocaloric diets (with the same caloric deficits) result in different weight loss? If it's all CICO, then the macros shouldn't matter and the results should be the same.

Because the measured calorie expenditure, hence deficit, can only ever be an approximation. Lots of different factors are going to affect expenditure, which will lead to absorption of energy by the body to be less than forecast, far fewer lead to it being greater than forecast.

The key point in your statement is different weight loss, yet upthread we've got people claiming a significant deficit yet gaining weight. Not going to happen, unless they're storing solar energy and wind power.

Sure, but mathematically, you can imagine a scenario with the right numbers manipulation where someone could gain or stay the same whereas another lost -- you'd just have to shift the bar for the calculated deficit closer to maintenance.

But different weight loss is the whole point. If all calories were created equal and quantity was the ONLY thing that matter, then the results would be the same. Since they are different, there is another factor(s) at play that are not accounted for in sheer caloric value.

This is still just variables in the CO portion. It does not negate the fact that you need to be in a caloric deficit to lose fat.

Once again, not my point. I'm not saying that you don't need to be in a caloric deficit, but how you manipulate that deficit will make a difference in your weight loss. So, it's not all about sheer caloric value -- otherwise, results wouldn't differ, and they do.

Am I not saying this clearly?

I think I have pretty much understood what you are saying (and generally do not disagree) - however, in a thread where some people try to indicate that you can gain weight on a deficit, I think it important to make the point that it is not what you are saying.

Also, I wanted to make it clear that results differ mainly when you look at people with metabolic issues. When you look at populations when they do not have them (and even in conflicting studies where they do to be honest), then results do not differ significantly.

I agree that people who think CICO is totally invalid are way off, so I totally agree with you wanting to dispel that notion. But, on the flipside, there are a LOT more people that I've seen that say CICO is the ONLY thing. And I'd like to dispel that notion as well.

As I said before, I think they're both important parts of the weight loss puzzle for people.

Both important, but all calories are not equal how they effect blood sugar and uptake.

Are you kidding me right now?! Did you just say that you agree that CICO is important for weight loss, while macro counts are important for optimal health?

Because that is what EVERYONE in this thread has been saying.

I think it might just come down to her reading comprehension being way off and she thinks we are saying something we aren't.

Going to make this very clear. CICO is all that matters for weight loss specifically. For health and for nutrition and for wellbeing yes of course what you eat matters. What you eat matters for weight loss in the sense that to sustain weight loss you have to sustain your health so to have a sustainable diet for weight loss then yes what you eat matters...but not because CICO is incorrect.

And this is what I think is silly -- this decoupling of the amorphous "good for your health" and weight loss. They're linked. One will affect the other, either in how much fat versus muscle you lose, overall lbs lost, how you feel, how you sleep, how your hormones adjust, how manageable the program is for you, etc. -- that will all affect your ultimate weight loss and body composition goals. To pretend that they're totally different things to me is an issue of not being able to see the forest for the trees.

Yes...and no one disagrees with that, or at least I have yet to meet someone who disagrees with that. We all agree that having a healthy diet is important for sustained weight loss right? Anyone disagree with that?

Here is the thing though, that is not an invalidation of CICO. CICO is still applicable and is still true.

Once again, not an invalidation issue. I don't know why you keep repeating this after I've said the contrary more than 5 times. It's like you just keep setting up false arguments against which to argue.

Aaron_K123

Gina.

Listen to what I am actually saying in my words written here, not what you think my position is.

CICO is calories in calories out, as we all know. Calories in is how many calories you personally get from ingesting food, calories out is how many calories you personally get from exercise and your BMR.

The calories written on the side of a nutrition label are just the thermodynamic calorometric measurement, the maximum amount of calories obtainable from that food.

If the calorometric measurement value is 400 and I eat it I might obtain 350 calories from it after digestion, meaning my CI is 350...while you might obtain 300 calories from it after digestion, meaning your CI is 300.

I then go for a 1 hour long walk and because of my size I burn 200 calories (CO of 200). You go for an hour long walk and because of your size you burn 100 calories (CO of 100).


In this example we both ate the exact same food, we both went for the exact same 1 hour long walk.

My CICO is (350 - 200) = 150. Your CICO is (300-100) = 200>

We had different values for the same food and exercise.

This does not invalidate CICO...this IS CICO. Do you understand?

OkamiLavande

(Has anyone else given thought to whether or not it's a violation of the "spam" section of the Community Guidelines (all hail!) to constantly quote existing posts without adding anything to them? No? Just me? Oh. Well, carry on then...)

Pssst...She's just terrible with the quote function. She has comments hidden in all of them.

stevencloser

Yes, CI can be affected by obtuse factors like excretion and poor metabolism, but it will never become a larger amount of energy than it contains.

That's really poorly worded but my head hurts so screw it :P

And that's really the point - factors can and do affect both CI and CO, but at the end of the day if CI is less* than CO weightloss WILL occur.


*scientifically, not just assumed to be

None of the rest of this discussion invalidates that.

True, but if you can't really determine the numbers, then you have to do more to cover that margin of error. And regardless of that, isnt' everyone interested in figuring out the most effective way that works for them? If lowering or raising their carbs, depending on the individual, results in greater, more effective results, doesn't everyone want to know that?

Doesn't everyone want to maximize their efforts? Get the most bang for their buck? And, isn't finding the most effective way what will lead to the most sustainable longterm changes?

For yourself, and I, perhaps optimisation is a concern. But I think your time spent on this forum should make it apparent that most people just want to lose some weight, and don't really care for the science or faffing around with numbers

In some ways, sure. But there are a lot of people that are doing everything *right* and don't see the results. They get frustrated and just chuck the whole thing. Or think they're going crazy. I was one of those people and struggled with various issues for over 10 years. I didn't understand or even know what insulin resistance was or how it or issues like thyroid problems could greatly shift the CICO numbers. It was super, super frustrating.

Had I known then what I know now, man, I would have saved a decade of super frustration and lack of consistent results...and probably damaging myself (thankfully, not permanently).

So, to me, discussing these sorts of caveats are important. Especially when over 40% of your population has such issues. It's not like a mere 1 or 2%.

But the insulin resistant / sensitive people lost weight at a completely normal level at 400 calorie deficit. Nothing else required. Other diets for them made it even faster somehow. Maybe actualy fat loss (good), maybe just less water retention (irrelevant) maybe more lbm loss (bad). But they all lost, at the expected calorie deficit.
And I think most people are going to suggest to people posting things like "I'm doing everything right but I'm not losing" with
1) make sure you're logging intake correctly
2) make sure your exercise burn is not overestimated
if 1 or 2 don't help
3) make sure your TDEE is correct for your activity level
if 3 didn't help either
4) reduce calorie intake further (slowly) and see what happens in a month or so

jmv7117

Yes, CI can be affected by obtuse factors like excretion and poor metabolism, but it will never become a larger amount of energy than it contains.

That's really poorly worded but my head hurts so screw it :P

And that's really the point - factors can and do affect both CI and CO, but at the end of the day if CI is less* than CO weightloss WILL occur.


*scientifically, not just assumed to be

None of the rest of this discussion invalidates that.

True, but if you can't really determine the numbers, then you have to do more to cover that margin of error. And regardless of that, isnt' everyone interested in figuring out the most effective way that works for them? If lowering or raising their carbs, depending on the individual, results in greater, more effective results, doesn't everyone want to know that?

Doesn't everyone want to maximize their efforts? Get the most bang for their buck? And, isn't finding the most effective way what will lead to the most sustainable longterm changes?

You would think so! I know for a fact that when my anxiety level goes up, I crave carbs. I also know in order for me to lose the weight I did, I had to reduce my carbs by 10% of the MFP default. So, it doesn't matter what anyone says about CICO or eat what ever carbs you want, I know I need to keep my carbs on the lower side. Others can eat a steady diet of carbs and still lose weight. I can't. These very same people may find after losing their desired weight that they may have to adjust their carbs to maintain or perhaps they will be able to keep the same ratio. At any rate you can't paint all with the same paint brush which is what CICO is doing to some degree.

Aaron_K123

Okay, then how do isocaloric diets (with the same caloric deficits) result in different weight loss? If it's all CICO, then the macros shouldn't matter and the results should be the same.

Because the measured calorie expenditure, hence deficit, can only ever be an approximation. Lots of different factors are going to affect expenditure, which will lead to absorption of energy by the body to be less than forecast, far fewer lead to it being greater than forecast.

The key point in your statement is different weight loss, yet upthread we've got people claiming a significant deficit yet gaining weight. Not going to happen, unless they're storing solar energy and wind power.

Sure, but mathematically, you can imagine a scenario with the right numbers manipulation where someone could gain or stay the same whereas another lost -- you'd just have to shift the bar for the calculated deficit closer to maintenance.

But different weight loss is the whole point. If all calories were created equal and quantity was the ONLY thing that matter, then the results would be the same. Since they are different, there is another factor(s) at play that are not accounted for in sheer caloric value.

This is still just variables in the CO portion. It does not negate the fact that you need to be in a caloric deficit to lose fat.

Once again, not my point. I'm not saying that you don't need to be in a caloric deficit, but how you manipulate that deficit will make a difference in your weight loss. So, it's not all about sheer caloric value -- otherwise, results wouldn't differ, and they do.

Am I not saying this clearly?

I think I have pretty much understood what you are saying (and generally do not disagree) - however, in a thread where some people try to indicate that you can gain weight on a deficit, I think it important to make the point that it is not what you are saying.

Also, I wanted to make it clear that results differ mainly when you look at people with metabolic issues. When you look at populations when they do not have them (and even in conflicting studies where they do to be honest), then results do not differ significantly.

I agree that people who think CICO is totally invalid are way off, so I totally agree with you wanting to dispel that notion. But, on the flipside, there are a LOT more people that I've seen that say CICO is the ONLY thing. And I'd like to dispel that notion as well.

As I said before, I think they're both important parts of the weight loss puzzle for people.

Both important, but all calories are not equal how they effect blood sugar and uptake.

Are you kidding me right now?! Did you just say that you agree that CICO is important for weight loss, while macro counts are important for optimal health?

Because that is what EVERYONE in this thread has been saying.

I think it might just come down to her reading comprehension being way off and she thinks we are saying something we aren't.

Going to make this very clear. CICO is all that matters for weight loss specifically. For health and for nutrition and for wellbeing yes of course what you eat matters. What you eat matters for weight loss in the sense that to sustain weight loss you have to sustain your health so to have a sustainable diet for weight loss then yes what you eat matters...but not because CICO is incorrect.

And this is what I think is silly -- this decoupling of the amorphous "good for your health" and weight loss. They're linked. One will affect the other, either in how much fat versus muscle you lose, overall lbs lost, how you feel, how you sleep, how your hormones adjust, how manageable the program is for you, etc. -- that will all affect your ultimate weight loss and body composition goals. To pretend that they're totally different things to me is an issue of not being able to see the forest for the trees.

Yes...and no one disagrees with that, or at least I have yet to meet someone who disagrees with that. We all agree that having a healthy diet is important for sustained weight loss right? Anyone disagree with that?

Here is the thing though, that is not an invalidation of CICO. CICO is still applicable and is still true.

Once again, not an invalidation issue. I don't know why you keep repeating this after I've said the contrary more than 5 times. It's like you just keep setting up false arguments against which to argue.

Because that was Gina's claim. I never said it was your claim. I was talking about why Gina was incorrect in using this as an invalidation of CICO. I was not referring to your comments at all. That is what I meant by "her reading comprehension"....I was referring to Gina, not you.

jofjltncb6

(Has anyone else given thought to whether or not it's a violation of the "spam" section of the Community Guidelines (all hail!) to constantly quote existing posts without adding anything to them? No? Just me? Oh. Well, carry on then...)

Pssst...She's just terrible with the quote function. She has comments hidden in all of them.

(*All* of them??? Really? So it's like a hidden word search game in addition to being the most entertaining active post in the MFP forums right now? Wow, this thread really delivers. :drinker: )

Aaron_K123

(Has anyone else given thought to whether or not it's a violation of the "spam" section of the Community Guidelines (all hail!) to constantly quote existing posts without adding anything to them? No? Just me? Oh. Well, carry on then...)

Pssst...She's just terrible with the quote function. She has comments hidden in all of them.

I know :-(. When I quote her my OCD requires that I fish out her comment, put it at the end, rearrange the quote fields so it all makes sense.

s_pekz

How I picture the OP right about now

jkal1979

Gotta read inside of the quotes.

(Has anyone else given thought to whether or not it's a violation of the "spam" section of the Community Guidelines (all hail!) to constantly quote existing posts without adding anything to them? No? Just me? Oh. Well, carry on then...)

jofjltncb6

Yes, CI can be affected by obtuse factors like excretion and poor metabolism, but it will never become a larger amount of energy than it contains.

That's really poorly worded but my head hurts so screw it :P

And that's really the point - factors can and do affect both CI and CO, but at the end of the day if CI is less* than CO weightloss WILL occur.


*scientifically, not just assumed to be

None of the rest of this discussion invalidates that.

True, but if you can't really determine the numbers, then you have to do more to cover that margin of error. And regardless of that, isnt' everyone interested in figuring out the most effective way that works for them? If lowering or raising their carbs, depending on the individual, results in greater, more effective results, doesn't everyone want to know that?

Doesn't everyone want to maximize their efforts? Get the most bang for their buck? And, isn't finding the most effective way what will lead to the most sustainable longterm changes?

You would think so! I know for a fact that when my anxiety level goes up, I crave carbs. I also know in order for me to lose the weight I did, I had to reduce my carbs by 10% of the MFP default. So, it doesn't matter what anyone says about CICO or eat what ever carbs you want, I know I need to keep my carbs on the lower side. Others can eat a steady diet of carbs and still lose weight. I can't. These very same people may find after losing their desired weight that they may have to adjust their carbs to maintain or perhaps they will be able to keep the same ratio. At any rate you can't paint all with the same paint brush which is what CICO is doing to some degree.

Are you saying that if you had kept your carbs relatively higher but decreased your calories from protein and/or fat substantially, you wouldn't have lost weight?

If so, I'm once again back to doubting that you truly understand CICO.

OkamiLavande

(Has anyone else given thought to whether or not it's a violation of the "spam" section of the Community Guidelines (all hail!) to constantly quote existing posts without adding anything to them? No? Just me? Oh. Well, carry on then...)

Pssst...She's just terrible with the quote function. She has comments hidden in all of them.

I know :-(. When I quote her my OCD requires that I fish out her comment, put it at the end, rearrange the quote fields so it all makes sense.

At least you can find them. Sometimes I wonder if it's just vapid space. I don't know how she can keep going on like this. So much information overload she should just bow down.

jofjltncb6

Gotta read inside of the quotes.

(Has anyone else given thought to whether or not it's a violation of the "spam" section of the Community Guidelines (all hail!) to constantly quote existing posts without adding anything to them? No? Just me? Oh. Well, carry on then...)

ISWYDT!

And it makes me twitchy.


*twitch*

ironanimal

Gotta read inside of the quotes.

(Has anyone else given thought to whether or not it's a violation of the "spam" section of the Community Guidelines (all hail!) to constantly quote existing posts without adding anything to them? No? Just me? Oh. Well, carry on then...)

ISWYDT!

Hi jof

And it makes me twitchy.


*twitch*

lindsey1979

In some ways, sure. But there are a lot of people that are doing everything *right* and don't see the results. They get frustrated and just chuck the whole thing. Or think they're going crazy. I was one of those people and struggled with various issues for over 10 years. I didn't understand or even know what insulin resistance was or how it or issues like thyroid problems could greatly shift the CICO numbers. It was super, super frustrating.

Had I known then what I know now, man, I would have saved a decade of super frustration and lack of consistent results...and probably damaging myself (thankfully, not permanently).

So, to me, discussing these sorts of caveats are important. Especially when over 40% of your population has such issues. It's not like a mere 1 or 2%.

But the insulin resistant / sensitive people lost weight at a completely normal level at 400 calorie deficit. Nothing else required. Other diets for them made it even faster somehow. Maybe actualy fat loss (good), maybe just less water retention (irrelevant) maybe more lbm loss (bad). But they all lost, at the expected calorie deficit.
And I think most people are going to suggest to people posting things like "I'm doing everything right but I'm not losing" with
1) make sure you're logging intake correctly
2) make sure your exercise burn is not overestimated
if 1 or 2 don't help
3) make sure your TDEE is correct for your activity level
if 3 didn't help either
4) reduce calorie intake further (slowly) and see what happens in a month or so

I agree with, and think that's the right way to go about it. But, there are some posters on this board that insist those are the only issues -- after all, it's CICO. And depending on the issue, continuing to cut calories can be detrimental. You could end up in a VLCD -- I did for a while with my thyroid stuff. Or just be banging your head against a wall like what happens with insulin resistance -- you get hungrier and hungrier and it can feel impossible to maintain a deficit when you're eating a lot of carbs.

From what I've seen, a lot of people on this site then start down the path of name calling about laziness, lack of will power, etc. When the true answer may be, hey, there is a better way to go about this for you. You're not necessarily lazy, crazy, lacking in will power, etc. -- you may have an issue that makes this much harder for you, and if you figure it out, you can be more "normal". And once again, 40+% of US adults have insulin resistance. That's a BIG DEAL, and helps explain why so many people are obese (as obesity increases the likelihood that you'll develop insulin resistance if you don't already have it for other reasons -- and makes it more difficult to lose weight and maintain weight loss).

That, to me, is very powerful, and very important. And leads to the most longterm success. After all, something like 90-95% of weight loss is regained in 10 years. That's a frightening statistic to me, but it also says it's because we're missing something. There is something else going on that's resulting in such a crazy huge longterm failure rate.

WinoGelato

(Has anyone else given thought to whether or not it's a violation of the "spam" section of the Community Guidelines (all hail!) to constantly quote existing posts without adding anything to them? No? Just me? Oh. Well, carry on then...)

Pssst...She's just terrible with the quote function. She has comments hidden in all of them.

(*All* of them??? Really? So it's like a hidden word search game in addition to being the most entertaining active post in the MFP forums right now? Wow, this thread really delivers. :drinker: )

I didn't realize there were hidden messages in all of them either. I truly thought some were just quotes that she forgot to type anything below because on a separate tab she was google searching for OpEd pieces that reference an Ivy League institution and then by the time she got back to the MFP reply window she forgot what she was going to say so she just hit "Post Reply".

But if there really are hidden messages then I guess I have to go back through 18 pages again...

<sigh> time for a bathroom break.