Finding Meaning & Delivering Confessions

MrTolerable

Would they care?

Where does this desperate need to be classified as "gifted" come from?

i would imagine they'd find any such arguments/theories pretty pointless. just introducing another point of view into the 'discussion'.

ie, i'm feeding the bears

It's a good point. It does underline the question - imagine that we'd successfully defined "gifted" in this context - what does the label do for the "gifted" person? What does it do for me?

i'm not sure i really follow your question, but i would basically say its a self serving title. which goes back to what i was saying about psychology being like english class, if you can make a decent argument, then you 'theory' is sound.

one could probably focus on any number of personality quirks, or some other aspect of human life, and come up with a rationale why it makes them special or gifted. even amongst those prone to critical evaluation, some will evaluate the ideas for what they are and some will support it simply because they see themselves in it.

Psychology is actually a science. It uses scientific method. (Then there's clinical psychology which applies it.) I'm not sure what all you took as a student but, trust me, there's more than just logical argument to the discipline.

The term "gifted" came about because Alfred Binet was tasked by the French government to find a way to separate kids for educational placement. So he developed an intelligence test to try to sort them. Voila - some scored low and some scored high and resources were meted out accordingly.

How this applies to anything other than doling out school resources has been hotly debated since then. Are we allowed to administrate intelligence tests as part of employment screenings, etc? What is the impact of a high IQ on career success, happiness, relationships, all of the things of life?

So, even if Mr. Tolerable was able to find some way of philosophically tying together these topic areas, he'd still have to answer the question, "Who cares?" What's the impact?

If I'm a Peruvian alpaca herder, who is happily married with six children and goes to church every Sunday, how do my over-excitabilities affect my context?

most schools only award a BA in psychology.

you could never impliment a truly emperical experiment testing human behavior, too many varibles and moral issues.

In the end its just interpreting data, which may or may not have inherent flaws. i suppose you could say the same of all science, but there are generally more facts to help one interpret when it comes to something like chemistry.

I'd say that other then the location and function of brain structures, and whom came up with what theory when, there are no facts in the discipline of psychology

Most schools have PH.D programs in several branches of psychology, including cognitive, social, developmental, comparative and clinical. There are journals upon journals that publish peer reviewed empirical research in each of these areas.

yes. you can also get a Ph.D in art history.

its a science in that it employees the scientific method. but one could never really eliminate all the varibles for subject to subject in order to emperically prove theories the way one can in the natural sciences. therefore laws and facts outside of the branches of psychology that are closely intertwinded with biology are basically nonexistant.

the difference between a BA and a BS in psychology is the BS will require a lot of course work in the natural sciences

^what is your point with this argument? For sake of time I'll 'concede' 'concede' 'concede' simply curious to hear what point you are getting at.

MrTolerable

^I think many people don't think in 'I' - they don't even realize what provides identity - your past, past actions, behavioral development, experience - this is what largely dictates the choices you make in the present - doesn't mean the present or future don't matter - they are simply not the player nor decision maker.

I think BTW many adults see themselves through the eyes of others as well.

-a way to think of this easier is saying you are in a constant state of 'not-being' - the you - you see in the mirror isn't what makes you 'you' - it is the actions in the past, and your past history that makes you, 'you'.

MrTolerable

Yes, my worldview would be based on my experience and many of the schools in Southern California qualify as Title one(from San Diego to L.A. and would have similar demos; benefits of living on the border. So yes I could move out of state or try to teach in a more affluent area-there are pockets here and there, but that comes with a whole different set of issues. For me, I've given it much thought and decided it's more rewarding to work with the underprivileged.

The problem isn't where you choose to live and work. The problem is you painting all "gifted" people with a broad brush based on where you live and work.

One of the major life lessons English majors should learn is critical thinking and you seem to be lacking in it. I don't think, taking away the variables, that highly intelligent people are less athletically-inclined (imagine the mental stamina needed for the highest levels of such things) or less socially skilled than less intelligent people.

Some are, some aren't. But you will find that in both populations.

:drinker:

MrTolerable

and what about eastern philosophy?

those who reject a clearly defined sense of self because thier introsepection moves them to interpret it as an illusion?

are they precluded from a meaningful life or being thought of as gifted?

Yeah- actually I think they are on to something very profound - the ego death.

^I have personally felt the effects of ego death from messing with substance abuse - hallucinogenics in the past - it is very unnerving -experiencing depersonalization.

I in a sense agree with their line of thinking - quantum physicist as has been mentioned in even this thread keep pointing towards the fact that we are in an illusion or simply in a consciousness.

Once computering power has advanced to the point where we can accurately simulate the big bang... then the simple fact that this is possible makes it infinetly more likely that we are accually living in a computer simulation... because there would be a simulation within that simulation, and so on and so forth, like a russan doll.

I mean, thats BS but its almost hard to work your way out of the logic when you keep thinking about. there are experiments that suggests that matter behaves differently when its being observed, which has been liked to that fact that what is not currently being displayed on a monitor in a computer simulation in some ways does not exist. It exists but not in the same form as precieved on the monitor, it exists only as information in the simulation when not displayed.

when you keep drilling down... there will be no 'smallest particle'. there will only be quantum states... just information that is interpreted by the one percieving... much like the a simulation

Yeah - you are referring to the double slit experiment regarding electrons or protons not letting us observe them - not to mention they are random as crap to begin with. I've said previously this is no way disagrees with any of my stance put forth - In fact I'll be mentioning quantum physics a great deal because I think this is incredibly important.

"All things -- from Brahma the creator down to a single blade of grass -- are. . .simply appearances and not real." - Adi Shankara

If one wants to give an accurate description of the elementary particle. . .the only thing which can be written down as description is a probability function. But then one sees that not even the quality of being. . .belongs to what is described - Werner Heisenberg

Look at your body –
A Painted Puppet, a poor toy
Of Jointed parts ready to collapse,
A diseased and suffering thing
With a head full of false imaginings.
-the Dhammapada.

Just because we don't know where it is doesn't mean that it doesn't exist somewhere at a given moment in time.

yeah I agree with you - but it just will get smaller - till we are talking quirks and leptons - then it gets even smaller - idk we can talk string theory? M-Theory - whatevs - it all points towards a stream of consciousness be it things at the subatomic level or through entanglement.

Not to mention with all the parallel universes in the multiverse - I mean talk about insignificant - my friend through the eyes of the cosmos - that is you and I.

Whatevs. You kind of have to use two opposing arguments to get there. First, there is no meaning and second, that we need to look at ourselves in relationship to that lack of meaning.

However, if there is no meaning, then (woo hoo) I get to create my own: I'm the center of the universe!

If there is meaning, then I have significance in relationship to that meaning. Which is nifty.

In the mean time, just like the bonobos, I need to feed my kids. And that's pretty cool too.

It sounds paradoxical - I mean if you are taking the Bible seriously then you can certainly see through this though.

At the level of the cosmos - no meaning.

The average human - has no meaning, has not even contemplated meaning - they don't even think in terms of true 'self' - I want to shake them up and MAKE them think-which will largely be done through elaborate entertainment of my journey to the 'self' - coupled with philosophy on why I came to the conclusion I did after the fact. They simply assume because they have self-awareness they are entitled to meaning. - simpletons, nothing is wrong with being simple - it seems blissful to them.

Gifted person - experiences an existential crisis- comes to a similar conclusion as me - at the level of the cosmos no meaning - they will die, be forgotten, self awareness turns off. - Because their is no meaning they must select a worldview - I think in this day and age the only acceptable ones are nihilism, existentialism, postmodernism - and I will cover each one and how I coped with each one (and yeah existentialism is just a movement not a world-view ---sure I can accept nihilism, but the only way to cope with the void is to create meaning for my individual self).

Christianity will of course be at play a great deal due to my upbringing and the fact that I detest how it dumb down and dulls critical thinking in people. It is folly and foolish - I have great respect for Christians - the people - I even think the pastors and clergy are sincere - but they are all sincerely wrong -dead wrong. This side of life is the one and only shot of life you got - then the self-awareness turns off - so use the time to create the most beautiful thing I think a person can - a SELF.

likitisplit

Would they care?

Where does this desperate need to be classified as "gifted" come from?

i would imagine they'd find any such arguments/theories pretty pointless. just introducing another point of view into the 'discussion'.

ie, i'm feeding the bears

It's a good point. It does underline the question - imagine that we'd successfully defined "gifted" in this context - what does the label do for the "gifted" person? What does it do for me?

i'm not sure i really follow your question, but i would basically say its a self serving title. which goes back to what i was saying about psychology being like english class, if you can make a decent argument, then you 'theory' is sound.

one could probably focus on any number of personality quirks, or some other aspect of human life, and come up with a rationale why it makes them special or gifted. even amongst those prone to critical evaluation, some will evaluate the ideas for what they are and some will support it simply because they see themselves in it.

Psychology is actually a science. It uses scientific method. (Then there's clinical psychology which applies it.) I'm not sure what all you took as a student but, trust me, there's more than just logical argument to the discipline.

The term "gifted" came about because Alfred Binet was tasked by the French government to find a way to separate kids for educational placement. So he developed an intelligence test to try to sort them. Voila - some scored low and some scored high and resources were meted out accordingly.

How this applies to anything other than doling out school resources has been hotly debated since then. Are we allowed to administrate intelligence tests as part of employment screenings, etc? What is the impact of a high IQ on career success, happiness, relationships, all of the things of life?

So, even if Mr. Tolerable was able to find some way of philosophically tying together these topic areas, he'd still have to answer the question, "Who cares?" What's the impact?

If I'm a Peruvian alpaca herder, who is happily married with six children and goes to church every Sunday, how do my over-excitabilities affect my context?

most schools only award a BA in psychology.

you could never impliment a truly emperical experiment testing human behavior, too many varibles and moral issues.

In the end its just interpreting data, which may or may not have inherent flaws. i suppose you could say the same of all science, but there are generally more facts to help one interpret when it comes to something like chemistry.

I'd say that other then the location and function of brain structures, and whom came up with what theory when, there are no facts in the discipline of psychology

Most schools have PH.D programs in several branches of psychology, including cognitive, social, developmental, comparative and clinical. There are journals upon journals that publish peer reviewed empirical research in each of these areas.

yes. you can also get a Ph.D in art history.

its a science in that it employees the scientific method. but one could never really eliminate all the varibles for subject to subject in order to emperically prove theories the way one can in the natural sciences. therefore laws and facts outside of the branches of psychology that are closely intertwinded with biology are basically nonexistant.

the difference between a BA and a BS in psychology is the BS will require a lot of course work in the natural sciences

Ok. I have a B.Sc. in Psychology. I had to take an assortment of classes that supported a liberal arts education, Calculus and statistics. I was also required to take three additional classes of my choice in physics, chemistry or biology, in addition to bunches and bunches of psychology classes. My concentration was in Social Psychology, which I also pursued as a Graduate Student. One of the requirements for my degree was conducting an experiment in the field of Social Psychology. Additionally, as a work/study student, I worked in a Social Psychology lab conducting research.

As a graduate student pursuing a research degree in Psychology, I was required to formulate and pursue a body of research.

As I mentioned, there are any number of peer-reviewed research journals in the field of Psychology publishing empirical studies. If you don't understand that Psychology is a science, you need to revisit the definitions of "scientific method" and "empirical."

MrTolerable

Would they care?

Where does this desperate need to be classified as "gifted" come from?

i would imagine they'd find any such arguments/theories pretty pointless. just introducing another point of view into the 'discussion'.

ie, i'm feeding the bears

It's a good point. It does underline the question - imagine that we'd successfully defined "gifted" in this context - what does the label do for the "gifted" person? What does it do for me?

i'm not sure i really follow your question, but i would basically say its a self serving title. which goes back to what i was saying about psychology being like english class, if you can make a decent argument, then you 'theory' is sound.

one could probably focus on any number of personality quirks, or some other aspect of human life, and come up with a rationale why it makes them special or gifted. even amongst those prone to critical evaluation, some will evaluate the ideas for what they are and some will support it simply because they see themselves in it.

Psychology is actually a science. It uses scientific method. (Then there's clinical psychology which applies it.) I'm not sure what all you took as a student but, trust me, there's more than just logical argument to the discipline.

The term "gifted" came about because Alfred Binet was tasked by the French government to find a way to separate kids for educational placement. So he developed an intelligence test to try to sort them. Voila - some scored low and some scored high and resources were meted out accordingly.

How this applies to anything other than doling out school resources has been hotly debated since then. Are we allowed to administrate intelligence tests as part of employment screenings, etc? What is the impact of a high IQ on career success, happiness, relationships, all of the things of life?

So, even if Mr. Tolerable was able to find some way of philosophically tying together these topic areas, he'd still have to answer the question, "Who cares?" What's the impact?

If I'm a Peruvian alpaca herder, who is happily married with six children and goes to church every Sunday, how do my over-excitabilities affect my context?

most schools only award a BA in psychology.

you could never impliment a truly emperical experiment testing human behavior, too many varibles and moral issues.

In the end its just interpreting data, which may or may not have inherent flaws. i suppose you could say the same of all science, but there are generally more facts to help one interpret when it comes to something like chemistry.

I'd say that other then the location and function of brain structures, and whom came up with what theory when, there are no facts in the discipline of psychology

Most schools have PH.D programs in several branches of psychology, including cognitive, social, developmental, comparative and clinical. There are journals upon journals that publish peer reviewed empirical research in each of these areas.

yes. you can also get a Ph.D in art history.

its a science in that it employees the scientific method. but one could never really eliminate all the varibles for subject to subject in order to emperically prove theories the way one can in the natural sciences. therefore laws and facts outside of the branches of psychology that are closely intertwinded with biology are basically nonexistant.

the difference between a BA and a BS in psychology is the BS will require a lot of course work in the natural sciences

Ok. I have a B.Sc. in Psychology. I had to take an assortment of classes that supported a liberal arts education, Calculus and statistics. I was also required to take three additional classes of my choice in physics, chemistry or biology, in addition to bunches and bunches of psychology classes. My concentration was in Social Psychology, which I also pursued as a Graduate Student. One of the requirements for my degree was conducting an experiment in the field of Social Psychology. Additionally, as a work/study student, I worked in a Social Psychology lab conducting research.

As a graduate student pursuing a research degree in Psychology, I was required to formulate and pursue a body of research.

As I mentioned, there are any number of peer-reviewed research journals in the field of Psychology publishing empirical studies. If you don't understand that Psychology is a science, you need to revisit the definitions of "scientific method" and "empirical."

Of course it is a science! :laugh: - for sake of argument and simple respect we should just sit back and let him make the point he has been trying to get at.

likitisplit

and what about eastern philosophy?

those who reject a clearly defined sense of self because thier introsepection moves them to interpret it as an illusion?

are they precluded from a meaningful life or being thought of as gifted?

Yeah- actually I think they are on to something very profound - the ego death.

^I have personally felt the effects of ego death from messing with substance abuse - hallucinogenics in the past - it is very unnerving -experiencing depersonalization.

I in a sense agree with their line of thinking - quantum physicist as has been mentioned in even this thread keep pointing towards the fact that we are in an illusion or simply in a consciousness.

Once computering power has advanced to the point where we can accurately simulate the big bang... then the simple fact that this is possible makes it infinetly more likely that we are accually living in a computer simulation... because there would be a simulation within that simulation, and so on and so forth, like a russan doll.

I mean, thats BS but its almost hard to work your way out of the logic when you keep thinking about. there are experiments that suggests that matter behaves differently when its being observed, which has been liked to that fact that what is not currently being displayed on a monitor in a computer simulation in some ways does not exist. It exists but not in the same form as precieved on the monitor, it exists only as information in the simulation when not displayed.

when you keep drilling down... there will be no 'smallest particle'. there will only be quantum states... just information that is interpreted by the one percieving... much like the a simulation

Yeah - you are referring to the double slit experiment regarding electrons or protons not letting us observe them - not to mention they are random as crap to begin with. I've said previously this is no way disagrees with any of my stance put forth - In fact I'll be mentioning quantum physics a great deal because I think this is incredibly important.

"All things -- from Brahma the creator down to a single blade of grass -- are. . .simply appearances and not real." - Adi Shankara

If one wants to give an accurate description of the elementary particle. . .the only thing which can be written down as description is a probability function. But then one sees that not even the quality of being. . .belongs to what is described - Werner Heisenberg

Look at your body –
A Painted Puppet, a poor toy
Of Jointed parts ready to collapse,
A diseased and suffering thing
With a head full of false imaginings.
-the Dhammapada.

Just because we don't know where it is doesn't mean that it doesn't exist somewhere at a given moment in time.

yeah I agree with you - but it just will get smaller - till we are talking quirks and leptons - then it gets even smaller - idk we can talk string theory? M-Theory - whatevs - it all points towards a stream of consciousness be it things at the subatomic level or through entanglement.

Not to mention with all the parallel universes in the multiverse - I mean talk about insignificant - my friend through the eyes of the cosmos - that is you and I.

Whatevs. You kind of have to use two opposing arguments to get there. First, there is no meaning and second, that we need to look at ourselves in relationship to that lack of meaning.

However, if there is no meaning, then (woo hoo) I get to create my own: I'm the center of the universe!

If there is meaning, then I have significance in relationship to that meaning. Which is nifty.

In the mean time, just like the bonobos, I need to feed my kids. And that's pretty cool too.

It sounds paradoxical - I mean if you are taking the Bible seriously then you can certainly see through this though.

At the level of the cosmos - no meaning.

The average human - has no meaning, has not even contemplated meaning - they don't even think in terms of true 'self' - I want to shake them up and MAKE them think-which will largely be done through elaborate entertainment of my journey to the 'self' - coupled with philosophy on why I came to the conclusion I did after the fact. They simply assume because they have self-awareness they are entitled to meaning. - simpletons, nothing is wrong with being simple - it seems blissful to them.

Gifted person - experiences an existential crisis- comes to a similar conclusion as me - at the level of the cosmos no meaning - they will die, be forgotten, self awareness turns off. - Because their is no meaning they must select a worldview - I think in this day and age the only acceptable ones are nihilism, existentialism, postmodernism - and I will cover each one and how I coped with each one (and yeah existentialism is just a movement not a world-view ---sure I can accept nihilism, but the only way to cope with the void is to create meaning for my individual self).

Christianity will of course be at play a great deal due to my upbringing and the fact that I detest how it dumb down and dulls critical thinking in people. It is folly and foolish - I have great respect for Christians - the people - I even think the pastors and clergy are sincere - but they are all sincerely wrong -dead wrong. This side of life is the one and only shot of life you got - then the self-awareness turns off - so use the time to create the most beautiful thing I think a person can - a SELF.

Except the average person does have a sense of self. We are sentient creatures. We are born with it.

If you think that this is something that is owned by an elite, you've got a lot of learning to do about the world.

You might want to start with what we know about the other apes.

likitisplit

Would they care?

Where does this desperate need to be classified as "gifted" come from?

i would imagine they'd find any such arguments/theories pretty pointless. just introducing another point of view into the 'discussion'.

ie, i'm feeding the bears

It's a good point. It does underline the question - imagine that we'd successfully defined "gifted" in this context - what does the label do for the "gifted" person? What does it do for me?

i'm not sure i really follow your question, but i would basically say its a self serving title. which goes back to what i was saying about psychology being like english class, if you can make a decent argument, then you 'theory' is sound.

one could probably focus on any number of personality quirks, or some other aspect of human life, and come up with a rationale why it makes them special or gifted. even amongst those prone to critical evaluation, some will evaluate the ideas for what they are and some will support it simply because they see themselves in it.

Psychology is actually a science. It uses scientific method. (Then there's clinical psychology which applies it.) I'm not sure what all you took as a student but, trust me, there's more than just logical argument to the discipline.

The term "gifted" came about because Alfred Binet was tasked by the French government to find a way to separate kids for educational placement. So he developed an intelligence test to try to sort them. Voila - some scored low and some scored high and resources were meted out accordingly.

How this applies to anything other than doling out school resources has been hotly debated since then. Are we allowed to administrate intelligence tests as part of employment screenings, etc? What is the impact of a high IQ on career success, happiness, relationships, all of the things of life?

So, even if Mr. Tolerable was able to find some way of philosophically tying together these topic areas, he'd still have to answer the question, "Who cares?" What's the impact?

If I'm a Peruvian alpaca herder, who is happily married with six children and goes to church every Sunday, how do my over-excitabilities affect my context?

most schools only award a BA in psychology.

you could never impliment a truly emperical experiment testing human behavior, too many varibles and moral issues.

In the end its just interpreting data, which may or may not have inherent flaws. i suppose you could say the same of all science, but there are generally more facts to help one interpret when it comes to something like chemistry.

I'd say that other then the location and function of brain structures, and whom came up with what theory when, there are no facts in the discipline of psychology

Most schools have PH.D programs in several branches of psychology, including cognitive, social, developmental, comparative and clinical. There are journals upon journals that publish peer reviewed empirical research in each of these areas.

yes. you can also get a Ph.D in art history.

its a science in that it employees the scientific method. but one could never really eliminate all the varibles for subject to subject in order to emperically prove theories the way one can in the natural sciences. therefore laws and facts outside of the branches of psychology that are closely intertwinded with biology are basically nonexistant.

the difference between a BA and a BS in psychology is the BS will require a lot of course work in the natural sciences

Ok. I have a B.Sc. in Psychology. I had to take an assortment of classes that supported a liberal arts education, Calculus and statistics. I was also required to take three additional classes of my choice in physics, chemistry or biology, in addition to bunches and bunches of psychology classes. My concentration was in Social Psychology, which I also pursued as a Graduate Student. One of the requirements for my degree was conducting an experiment in the field of Social Psychology. Additionally, as a work/study student, I worked in a Social Psychology lab conducting research.

As a graduate student pursuing a research degree in Psychology, I was required to formulate and pursue a body of research.

As I mentioned, there are any number of peer-reviewed research journals in the field of Psychology publishing empirical studies. If you don't understand that Psychology is a science, you need to revisit the definitions of "scientific method" and "empirical."

Of course it is a science! :laugh: - for sake of argument and simple respect we should just sit back and let him make the point he has been trying to get at.

Remember back when I mentioned that I'd never discuss a vein of research on the internet because the feedback I'd get is "everybody is different"?

MrTolerable

and what about eastern philosophy?

those who reject a clearly defined sense of self because thier introsepection moves them to interpret it as an illusion?

are they precluded from a meaningful life or being thought of as gifted?

Yeah- actually I think they are on to something very profound - the ego death.

^I have personally felt the effects of ego death from messing with substance abuse - hallucinogenics in the past - it is very unnerving -experiencing depersonalization.

I in a sense agree with their line of thinking - quantum physicist as has been mentioned in even this thread keep pointing towards the fact that we are in an illusion or simply in a consciousness.

Once computering power has advanced to the point where we can accurately simulate the big bang... then the simple fact that this is possible makes it infinetly more likely that we are accually living in a computer simulation... because there would be a simulation within that simulation, and so on and so forth, like a russan doll.

I mean, thats BS but its almost hard to work your way out of the logic when you keep thinking about. there are experiments that suggests that matter behaves differently when its being observed, which has been liked to that fact that what is not currently being displayed on a monitor in a computer simulation in some ways does not exist. It exists but not in the same form as precieved on the monitor, it exists only as information in the simulation when not displayed.

when you keep drilling down... there will be no 'smallest particle'. there will only be quantum states... just information that is interpreted by the one percieving... much like the a simulation

Yeah - you are referring to the double slit experiment regarding electrons or protons not letting us observe them - not to mention they are random as crap to begin with. I've said previously this is no way disagrees with any of my stance put forth - In fact I'll be mentioning quantum physics a great deal because I think this is incredibly important.

"All things -- from Brahma the creator down to a single blade of grass -- are. . .simply appearances and not real." - Adi Shankara

If one wants to give an accurate description of the elementary particle. . .the only thing which can be written down as description is a probability function. But then one sees that not even the quality of being. . .belongs to what is described - Werner Heisenberg

Look at your body –
A Painted Puppet, a poor toy
Of Jointed parts ready to collapse,
A diseased and suffering thing
With a head full of false imaginings.
-the Dhammapada.

Just because we don't know where it is doesn't mean that it doesn't exist somewhere at a given moment in time.

yeah I agree with you - but it just will get smaller - till we are talking quirks and leptons - then it gets even smaller - idk we can talk string theory? M-Theory - whatevs - it all points towards a stream of consciousness be it things at the subatomic level or through entanglement.

Not to mention with all the parallel universes in the multiverse - I mean talk about insignificant - my friend through the eyes of the cosmos - that is you and I.

Whatevs. You kind of have to use two opposing arguments to get there. First, there is no meaning and second, that we need to look at ourselves in relationship to that lack of meaning.

However, if there is no meaning, then (woo hoo) I get to create my own: I'm the center of the universe!

If there is meaning, then I have significance in relationship to that meaning. Which is nifty.

In the mean time, just like the bonobos, I need to feed my kids. And that's pretty cool too.

It sounds paradoxical - I mean if you are taking the Bible seriously then you can certainly see through this though.

At the level of the cosmos - no meaning.

The average human - has no meaning, has not even contemplated meaning - they don't even think in terms of true 'self' - I want to shake them up and MAKE them think-which will largely be done through elaborate entertainment of my journey to the 'self' - coupled with philosophy on why I came to the conclusion I did after the fact. They simply assume because they have self-awareness they are entitled to meaning. - simpletons, nothing is wrong with being simple - it seems blissful to them.

Gifted person - experiences an existential crisis- comes to a similar conclusion as me - at the level of the cosmos no meaning - they will die, be forgotten, self awareness turns off. - Because their is no meaning they must select a worldview - I think in this day and age the only acceptable ones are nihilism, existentialism, postmodernism - and I will cover each one and how I coped with each one (and yeah existentialism is just a movement not a world-view ---sure I can accept nihilism, but the only way to cope with the void is to create meaning for my individual self).

Christianity will of course be at play a great deal due to my upbringing and the fact that I detest how it dumb down and dulls critical thinking in people. It is folly and foolish - I have great respect for Christians - the people - I even think the pastors and clergy are sincere - but they are all sincerely wrong -dead wrong. This side of life is the one and only shot of life you got - then the self-awareness turns off - so use the time to create the most beautiful thing I think a person can - a SELF.

Except the average person does have a sense of self. We are sentient creatures. We are born with it.

If you think that this is something that is owned by an elite, you've got a lot of learning to do about the world.

You might want to start with what we know about the other apes.

What do you mean 'If you think that this is something that is owned by an elite, you've got a lot of learning to do about the world?' - Sincerely have no idea what you mean.

'Except the average person does have a sense of self. We are sentient creatures. We are born with it.'

-well it is certainly developed, we have self-awareness at prob around age 2 as I said previously. And sure they have a sense of self because they have self-awareness - but they don't have a SELF - they don't have an actually identity or personality - without an identity I don't think you have ANY free will period. You have not thought through things to form thoughts prior to actions.

quick example of this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/11013780/Judgements-about-trustworthiness-are-made-in-the-first-second-of-meeting.html

-WE are biological puppets - we think we judge people and make the choice on if we will trust someone or not - because we have self-awareness however we DO NOT. I think this applies in many other area's as well. And the average person certainly does not have a developed identity - they are a creature of whim, impulse. They have not formed their own thoughts of virtues, morality - they believe the nonsense you mentioned previously that I slammed down of being 'born' with good and evil, or believing it was fruit from a tree God told Adam and Eve not to eat. No, the true individual, the free spirit, the person with an actual 'I' - he has formed his own virtue and morality and his actions line up with it so his body is in accord with his spirit - and he may not have total free will, but he has much more freedom then the primitive man.

MrTolerable

:Sits back and smiles at that mind faq:

likitisplit

and what about eastern philosophy?

those who reject a clearly defined sense of self because thier introsepection moves them to interpret it as an illusion?

are they precluded from a meaningful life or being thought of as gifted?

Yeah- actually I think they are on to something very profound - the ego death.

^I have personally felt the effects of ego death from messing with substance abuse - hallucinogenics in the past - it is very unnerving -experiencing depersonalization.

I in a sense agree with their line of thinking - quantum physicist as has been mentioned in even this thread keep pointing towards the fact that we are in an illusion or simply in a consciousness.

Once computering power has advanced to the point where we can accurately simulate the big bang... then the simple fact that this is possible makes it infinetly more likely that we are accually living in a computer simulation... because there would be a simulation within that simulation, and so on and so forth, like a russan doll.

I mean, thats BS but its almost hard to work your way out of the logic when you keep thinking about. there are experiments that suggests that matter behaves differently when its being observed, which has been liked to that fact that what is not currently being displayed on a monitor in a computer simulation in some ways does not exist. It exists but not in the same form as precieved on the monitor, it exists only as information in the simulation when not displayed.

when you keep drilling down... there will be no 'smallest particle'. there will only be quantum states... just information that is interpreted by the one percieving... much like the a simulation

Yeah - you are referring to the double slit experiment regarding electrons or protons not letting us observe them - not to mention they are random as crap to begin with. I've said previously this is no way disagrees with any of my stance put forth - In fact I'll be mentioning quantum physics a great deal because I think this is incredibly important.

"All things -- from Brahma the creator down to a single blade of grass -- are. . .simply appearances and not real." - Adi Shankara

If one wants to give an accurate description of the elementary particle. . .the only thing which can be written down as description is a probability function. But then one sees that not even the quality of being. . .belongs to what is described - Werner Heisenberg

Look at your body –
A Painted Puppet, a poor toy
Of Jointed parts ready to collapse,
A diseased and suffering thing
With a head full of false imaginings.
-the Dhammapada.

Just because we don't know where it is doesn't mean that it doesn't exist somewhere at a given moment in time.

yeah I agree with you - but it just will get smaller - till we are talking quirks and leptons - then it gets even smaller - idk we can talk string theory? M-Theory - whatevs - it all points towards a stream of consciousness be it things at the subatomic level or through entanglement.

Not to mention with all the parallel universes in the multiverse - I mean talk about insignificant - my friend through the eyes of the cosmos - that is you and I.

Whatevs. You kind of have to use two opposing arguments to get there. First, there is no meaning and second, that we need to look at ourselves in relationship to that lack of meaning.

However, if there is no meaning, then (woo hoo) I get to create my own: I'm the center of the universe!

If there is meaning, then I have significance in relationship to that meaning. Which is nifty.

In the mean time, just like the bonobos, I need to feed my kids. And that's pretty cool too.

It sounds paradoxical - I mean if you are taking the Bible seriously then you can certainly see through this though.

At the level of the cosmos - no meaning.

The average human - has no meaning, has not even contemplated meaning - they don't even think in terms of true 'self' - I want to shake them up and MAKE them think-which will largely be done through elaborate entertainment of my journey to the 'self' - coupled with philosophy on why I came to the conclusion I did after the fact. They simply assume because they have self-awareness they are entitled to meaning. - simpletons, nothing is wrong with being simple - it seems blissful to them.

Gifted person - experiences an existential crisis- comes to a similar conclusion as me - at the level of the cosmos no meaning - they will die, be forgotten, self awareness turns off. - Because their is no meaning they must select a worldview - I think in this day and age the only acceptable ones are nihilism, existentialism, postmodernism - and I will cover each one and how I coped with each one (and yeah existentialism is just a movement not a world-view ---sure I can accept nihilism, but the only way to cope with the void is to create meaning for my individual self).

Christianity will of course be at play a great deal due to my upbringing and the fact that I detest how it dumb down and dulls critical thinking in people. It is folly and foolish - I have great respect for Christians - the people - I even think the pastors and clergy are sincere - but they are all sincerely wrong -dead wrong. This side of life is the one and only shot of life you got - then the self-awareness turns off - so use the time to create the most beautiful thing I think a person can - a SELF.

Except the average person does have a sense of self. We are sentient creatures. We are born with it.

If you think that this is something that is owned by an elite, you've got a lot of learning to do about the world.

You might want to start with what we know about the other apes.

What do you mean 'If you think that this is something that is owned by an elite, you've got a lot of learning to do about the world?' - Sincerely have no idea what you mean.

'Except the average person does have a sense of self. We are sentient creatures. We are born with it.'

-well it is certainly developed, we have self-awareness at prob around age 2 as I said previously. And sure they have a sense of self because they have self-awareness - but they don't have a SELF - they don't have an actually identity or personality - without an identity I don't think you have ANY free will period. You have not thought through things to form thoughts prior to actions.

quick example of this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/11013780/Judgements-about-trustworthiness-are-made-in-the-first-second-of-meeting.html

-WE are biological puppets - we think we judge people and make the choice on if we will trust someone or not - because we have self-awareness however we DO NOT. I think this applies in many other area's as well. And the average person certainly does not have a developed identity - they are a creature of whim, impulse. They have not formed their own thoughts of virtues, morality - they believe the nonsense you mentioned previously that I slammed down of being 'born' with good and evil, or believing it was fruit from a tree God told Adam and Eve not to eat. No, the true individual, the free spirit, the person with an actual 'I' - he has formed his own virtue and morality and his actions line up with it so his body is in accord with his spirit - and he may not have total free will, but he has much more freedom then the primitive man.

:noway:

You might want to check out the work that's been done with Attitude/Behavior Consistency. You can make people do strange things when you approach our biological blind spots in a certain way, but people also tend to be really robust in their base personalities.

You can make somebody want something in the moment by framing it well. But three weeks later, they'll be back to where they were initially. It's really, really hard to get people to fundamentally change in any way. REALLY hard.

Also, recognize that a lot of the heuristics we use have made us extremely successful in the natural world and that, as a species, we're pretty good at abandoning them when needed. Yes, you can prove experimentally that they're there. But in the real world, there's a lot more going on.

Although, I think that the loan crisis partially played out the way it did because it was more-or-less designed to blind side us as a species. But we could have recognized it and done something about it on the macro-scale too.

EvgeniZyntx

and what about eastern philosophy?

those who reject a clearly defined sense of self because thier introsepection moves them to interpret it as an illusion?

are they precluded from a meaningful life or being thought of as gifted?

Yeah- actually I think they are on to something very profound - the ego death.

^I have personally felt the effects of ego death from messing with substance abuse - hallucinogenics in the past - it is very unnerving -experiencing depersonalization.

I in a sense agree with their line of thinking - quantum physicist as has been mentioned in even this thread keep pointing towards the fact that we are in an illusion or simply in a consciousness.

Once computering power has advanced to the point where we can accurately simulate the big bang... then the simple fact that this is possible makes it infinetly more likely that we are accually living in a computer simulation... because there would be a simulation within that simulation, and so on and so forth, like a russan doll.

I mean, thats BS but its almost hard to work your way out of the logic when you keep thinking about. there are experiments that suggests that matter behaves differently when its being observed, which has been liked to that fact that what is not currently being displayed on a monitor in a computer simulation in some ways does not exist. It exists but not in the same form as precieved on the monitor, it exists only as information in the simulation when not displayed.

when you keep drilling down... there will be no 'smallest particle'. there will only be quantum states... just information that is interpreted by the one percieving... much like the a simulation

Yeah - you are referring to the double slit experiment regarding electrons or protons not letting us observe them - not to mention they are random as crap to begin with. I've said previously this is no way disagrees with any of my stance put forth - In fact I'll be mentioning quantum physics a great deal because I think this is incredibly important.

"All things -- from Brahma the creator down to a single blade of grass -- are. . .simply appearances and not real." - Adi Shankara

If one wants to give an accurate description of the elementary particle. . .the only thing which can be written down as description is a probability function. But then one sees that not even the quality of being. . .belongs to what is described - Werner Heisenberg

Look at your body –
A Painted Puppet, a poor toy
Of Jointed parts ready to collapse,
A diseased and suffering thing
With a head full of false imaginings.
-the Dhammapada.

Just because we don't know where it is doesn't mean that it doesn't exist somewhere at a given moment in time.

yeah I agree with you - but it just will get smaller - till we are talking quirks and leptons - then it gets even smaller - idk we can talk string theory? M-Theory - whatevs - it all points towards a stream of consciousness be it things at the subatomic level or through entanglement.

Not to mention with all the parallel universes in the multiverse - I mean talk about insignificant - my friend through the eyes of the cosmos - that is you and I.

Whatevs. You kind of have to use two opposing arguments to get there. First, there is no meaning and second, that we need to look at ourselves in relationship to that lack of meaning.

However, if there is no meaning, then (woo hoo) I get to create my own: I'm the center of the universe!

If there is meaning, then I have significance in relationship to that meaning. Which is nifty.

In the mean time, just like the bonobos, I need to feed my kids. And that's pretty cool too.

It sounds paradoxical - I mean if you are taking the Bible seriously then you can certainly see through this though.

At the level of the cosmos - no meaning.

The average human - has no meaning, has not even contemplated meaning - they don't even think in terms of true 'self' - I want to shake them up and MAKE them think-which will largely be done through elaborate entertainment of my journey to the 'self' - coupled with philosophy on why I came to the conclusion I did after the fact. They simply assume because they have self-awareness they are entitled to meaning. - simpletons, nothing is wrong with being simple - it seems blissful to them.

Gifted person - experiences an existential crisis- comes to a similar conclusion as me - at the level of the cosmos no meaning - they will die, be forgotten, self awareness turns off. - Because their is no meaning they must select a worldview - I think in this day and age the only acceptable ones are nihilism, existentialism, postmodernism - and I will cover each one and how I coped with each one (and yeah existentialism is just a movement not a world-view ---sure I can accept nihilism, but the only way to cope with the void is to create meaning for my individual self).

Christianity will of course be at play a great deal due to my upbringing and the fact that I detest how it dumb down and dulls critical thinking in people. It is folly and foolish - I have great respect for Christians - the people - I even think the pastors and clergy are sincere - but they are all sincerely wrong -dead wrong. This side of life is the one and only shot of life you got - then the self-awareness turns off - so use the time to create the most beautiful thing I think a person can - a SELF.

Except the average person does have a sense of self. We are sentient creatures. We are born with it.

If you think that this is something that is owned by an elite, you've got a lot of learning to do about the world.

You might want to start with what we know about the other apes.

What do you mean 'If you think that this is something that is owned by an elite, you've got a lot of learning to do about the world?' - Sincerely have no idea what you mean.

'Except the average person does have a sense of self. We are sentient creatures. We are born with it.'

-well it is certainly developed, we have self-awareness at prob around age 2 as I said previously. And sure they have a sense of self because they have self-awareness - but they don't have a SELF - they don't have an actually identity or personality - without an identity I don't think you have ANY free will period. You have not thought through things to form thoughts prior to actions.

quick example of this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/11013780/Judgements-about-trustworthiness-are-made-in-the-first-second-of-meeting.html

-WE are biological puppets - we think we judge people and make the choice on if we will trust someone or not - because we have self-awareness however we DO NOT. I think this applies in many other area's as well. And the average person certainly does not have a developed identity - they are a creature of whim, impulse. They have not formed their own thoughts of virtues, morality - they believe the nonsense you mentioned previously that I slammed down of being 'born' with good and evil, or believing it was fruit from a tree God told Adam and Eve not to eat. No, the true individual, the free spirit, the person with an actual 'I' - he has formed his own virtue and morality and his actions line up with it so his body is in accord with his spirit - and he may not have total free will, but he has much more freedom then the primitive man.

No, what you are describing is another set of rules of function. Allowing oneself to be driven by whim may be determined or self-determined. You cannot identify the ontological difference.

And frankly all your "philosophical" talk about multiverse and quanta is blah blah. You do not experience this, it is but a learned framework and structured determinism - an existentialist view is, paradoxically, experiential.

MrTolerable

and what about eastern philosophy?

those who reject a clearly defined sense of self because thier introsepection moves them to interpret it as an illusion?

are they precluded from a meaningful life or being thought of as gifted?

Yeah- actually I think they are on to something very profound - the ego death.

^I have personally felt the effects of ego death from messing with substance abuse - hallucinogenics in the past - it is very unnerving -experiencing depersonalization.

I in a sense agree with their line of thinking - quantum physicist as has been mentioned in even this thread keep pointing towards the fact that we are in an illusion or simply in a consciousness.

Once computering power has advanced to the point where we can accurately simulate the big bang... then the simple fact that this is possible makes it infinetly more likely that we are accually living in a computer simulation... because there would be a simulation within that simulation, and so on and so forth, like a russan doll.

I mean, thats BS but its almost hard to work your way out of the logic when you keep thinking about. there are experiments that suggests that matter behaves differently when its being observed, which has been liked to that fact that what is not currently being displayed on a monitor in a computer simulation in some ways does not exist. It exists but not in the same form as precieved on the monitor, it exists only as information in the simulation when not displayed.

when you keep drilling down... there will be no 'smallest particle'. there will only be quantum states... just information that is interpreted by the one percieving... much like the a simulation

Yeah - you are referring to the double slit experiment regarding electrons or protons not letting us observe them - not to mention they are random as crap to begin with. I've said previously this is no way disagrees with any of my stance put forth - In fact I'll be mentioning quantum physics a great deal because I think this is incredibly important.

"All things -- from Brahma the creator down to a single blade of grass -- are. . .simply appearances and not real." - Adi Shankara

If one wants to give an accurate description of the elementary particle. . .the only thing which can be written down as description is a probability function. But then one sees that not even the quality of being. . .belongs to what is described - Werner Heisenberg

Look at your body –
A Painted Puppet, a poor toy
Of Jointed parts ready to collapse,
A diseased and suffering thing
With a head full of false imaginings.
-the Dhammapada.

Just because we don't know where it is doesn't mean that it doesn't exist somewhere at a given moment in time.

yeah I agree with you - but it just will get smaller - till we are talking quirks and leptons - then it gets even smaller - idk we can talk string theory? M-Theory - whatevs - it all points towards a stream of consciousness be it things at the subatomic level or through entanglement.

Not to mention with all the parallel universes in the multiverse - I mean talk about insignificant - my friend through the eyes of the cosmos - that is you and I.

Whatevs. You kind of have to use two opposing arguments to get there. First, there is no meaning and second, that we need to look at ourselves in relationship to that lack of meaning.

However, if there is no meaning, then (woo hoo) I get to create my own: I'm the center of the universe!

If there is meaning, then I have significance in relationship to that meaning. Which is nifty.

In the mean time, just like the bonobos, I need to feed my kids. And that's pretty cool too.

It sounds paradoxical - I mean if you are taking the Bible seriously then you can certainly see through this though.

At the level of the cosmos - no meaning.

The average human - has no meaning, has not even contemplated meaning - they don't even think in terms of true 'self' - I want to shake them up and MAKE them think-which will largely be done through elaborate entertainment of my journey to the 'self' - coupled with philosophy on why I came to the conclusion I did after the fact. They simply assume because they have self-awareness they are entitled to meaning. - simpletons, nothing is wrong with being simple - it seems blissful to them.

Gifted person - experiences an existential crisis- comes to a similar conclusion as me - at the level of the cosmos no meaning - they will die, be forgotten, self awareness turns off. - Because their is no meaning they must select a worldview - I think in this day and age the only acceptable ones are nihilism, existentialism, postmodernism - and I will cover each one and how I coped with each one (and yeah existentialism is just a movement not a world-view ---sure I can accept nihilism, but the only way to cope with the void is to create meaning for my individual self).

Christianity will of course be at play a great deal due to my upbringing and the fact that I detest how it dumb down and dulls critical thinking in people. It is folly and foolish - I have great respect for Christians - the people - I even think the pastors and clergy are sincere - but they are all sincerely wrong -dead wrong. This side of life is the one and only shot of life you got - then the self-awareness turns off - so use the time to create the most beautiful thing I think a person can - a SELF.

Except the average person does have a sense of self. We are sentient creatures. We are born with it.

If you think that this is something that is owned by an elite, you've got a lot of learning to do about the world.

You might want to start with what we know about the other apes.

What do you mean 'If you think that this is something that is owned by an elite, you've got a lot of learning to do about the world?' - Sincerely have no idea what you mean.

'Except the average person does have a sense of self. We are sentient creatures. We are born with it.'

-well it is certainly developed, we have self-awareness at prob around age 2 as I said previously. And sure they have a sense of self because they have self-awareness - but they don't have a SELF - they don't have an actually identity or personality - without an identity I don't think you have ANY free will period. You have not thought through things to form thoughts prior to actions.

quick example of this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/11013780/Judgements-about-trustworthiness-are-made-in-the-first-second-of-meeting.html

-WE are biological puppets - we think we judge people and make the choice on if we will trust someone or not - because we have self-awareness however we DO NOT. I think this applies in many other area's as well. And the average person certainly does not have a developed identity - they are a creature of whim, impulse. They have not formed their own thoughts of virtues, morality - they believe the nonsense you mentioned previously that I slammed down of being 'born' with good and evil, or believing it was fruit from a tree God told Adam and Eve not to eat. No, the true individual, the free spirit, the person with an actual 'I' - he has formed his own virtue and morality and his actions line up with it so his body is in accord with his spirit - and he may not have total free will, but he has much more freedom then the primitive man.

:noway:

You might want to check out the work that's been done with Attitude/Behavior Consistency. You can make people do strange things when you approach our biological blind spots in a certain way, but people also tend to be really robust in their base personalities.

You can make somebody want something in the moment by framing it well. But three weeks later, they'll be back to where they were initially. It's really, really hard to get people to fundamentally change in any way. REALLY hard.

Also, recognize that a lot of the heuristics we use have made us extremely successful in the natural world and that, as a species, we're pretty good at abandoning them when needed. Yes, you can prove experimentally that they're there. But in the real world, there's a lot more going on.

Although, I think that the loan crisis partially played out the way it did because it was more-or-less designed to blind side us as a species. But we could have recognized it and done something about it on the macro-scale too.

Well let's stay clear of the loan crisis -economics is my first love so I don't want to get on the craziest of tangents or derail this thread because I make a very valid case.

And 'people tend to be really robust in their base personality' - the fact that they have a base personality - they can be put in a nice little box - a choice between 1 of 16 personality types speaks volumes about how non-unique and how little free will there is. You are letting the tail wag the dog. The fact the average person can be thrown in a little box for marketing to take place, and for psychologist to hit, for my companies executives to know how to manipulate us - that in and of itself tells me their is a lack of a true 'self'.


'You can make somebody want something in the moment by framing it well. But three weeks later, they'll be back to where they were initially. It's really, really hard to get people to fundamentally change in any way. REALLY hard.' -this is true, but believe me - when I enter the life of a person they feel my fingerprint on them FOREVER this is how I nail relationships with clients and people, women - as quickly and as in-depth as I want. The overexcitabilities I demonstrate provide me with an uncanny sense of awareness of the other person, my boss in sales loves this because he says I can 'play' people like Jimmy Page can 'play' the guitar - I of course as a drug addict used this to harness manipulation techniques that were otherworldly - 'Loki like' Of course now I use techniques to create influential factors in all meetings - and I jump into the sea of issues - mirroring for me comes more naturally then you could possibly imagine - Like a human Chameleon - I'm the guy who is at a publicly traded company selling to the CFO, and that night I'm shirtless walking through Kensington, perfectly safe - being in character looking for a relapsed buddy. I can connect to people - and I can do this because I sincerely care. I love people. I love their experiences, their take on reality, their attempt to make meaning for them-self. David Foster Wallace said when you go to someone ask them what is wrong and they will always make the case of 'How did you know?' - This is indeed true - everyone is suffering. Everyone has a sense of loneliness, and I have been blessed with a face and makeup where people just confide in me off of initial introductions - I of course feign a sense of vulnerability as well - but I'm personally blessed in this regard. So I agree for the average person it is incredibly hard to fundamentally change people - but I have done it repeatedly my entire life. Creating paradigm shifts in people gives me a joy that you couldn't imagine.

MrTolerable

and what about eastern philosophy?

those who reject a clearly defined sense of self because thier introsepection moves them to interpret it as an illusion?

are they precluded from a meaningful life or being thought of as gifted?

Yeah- actually I think they are on to something very profound - the ego death.

^I have personally felt the effects of ego death from messing with substance abuse - hallucinogenics in the past - it is very unnerving -experiencing depersonalization.

I in a sense agree with their line of thinking - quantum physicist as has been mentioned in even this thread keep pointing towards the fact that we are in an illusion or simply in a consciousness.

Once computering power has advanced to the point where we can accurately simulate the big bang... then the simple fact that this is possible makes it infinetly more likely that we are accually living in a computer simulation... because there would be a simulation within that simulation, and so on and so forth, like a russan doll.

I mean, thats BS but its almost hard to work your way out of the logic when you keep thinking about. there are experiments that suggests that matter behaves differently when its being observed, which has been liked to that fact that what is not currently being displayed on a monitor in a computer simulation in some ways does not exist. It exists but not in the same form as precieved on the monitor, it exists only as information in the simulation when not displayed.

when you keep drilling down... there will be no 'smallest particle'. there will only be quantum states... just information that is interpreted by the one percieving... much like the a simulation

Yeah - you are referring to the double slit experiment regarding electrons or protons not letting us observe them - not to mention they are random as crap to begin with. I've said previously this is no way disagrees with any of my stance put forth - In fact I'll be mentioning quantum physics a great deal because I think this is incredibly important.

"All things -- from Brahma the creator down to a single blade of grass -- are. . .simply appearances and not real." - Adi Shankara

If one wants to give an accurate description of the elementary particle. . .the only thing which can be written down as description is a probability function. But then one sees that not even the quality of being. . .belongs to what is described - Werner Heisenberg

Look at your body –
A Painted Puppet, a poor toy
Of Jointed parts ready to collapse,
A diseased and suffering thing
With a head full of false imaginings.
-the Dhammapada.

Just because we don't know where it is doesn't mean that it doesn't exist somewhere at a given moment in time.

yeah I agree with you - but it just will get smaller - till we are talking quirks and leptons - then it gets even smaller - idk we can talk string theory? M-Theory - whatevs - it all points towards a stream of consciousness be it things at the subatomic level or through entanglement.

Not to mention with all the parallel universes in the multiverse - I mean talk about insignificant - my friend through the eyes of the cosmos - that is you and I.

Whatevs. You kind of have to use two opposing arguments to get there. First, there is no meaning and second, that we need to look at ourselves in relationship to that lack of meaning.

However, if there is no meaning, then (woo hoo) I get to create my own: I'm the center of the universe!

If there is meaning, then I have significance in relationship to that meaning. Which is nifty.

In the mean time, just like the bonobos, I need to feed my kids. And that's pretty cool too.

It sounds paradoxical - I mean if you are taking the Bible seriously then you can certainly see through this though.

At the level of the cosmos - no meaning.

The average human - has no meaning, has not even contemplated meaning - they don't even think in terms of true 'self' - I want to shake them up and MAKE them think-which will largely be done through elaborate entertainment of my journey to the 'self' - coupled with philosophy on why I came to the conclusion I did after the fact. They simply assume because they have self-awareness they are entitled to meaning. - simpletons, nothing is wrong with being simple - it seems blissful to them.

Gifted person - experiences an existential crisis- comes to a similar conclusion as me - at the level of the cosmos no meaning - they will die, be forgotten, self awareness turns off. - Because their is no meaning they must select a worldview - I think in this day and age the only acceptable ones are nihilism, existentialism, postmodernism - and I will cover each one and how I coped with each one (and yeah existentialism is just a movement not a world-view ---sure I can accept nihilism, but the only way to cope with the void is to create meaning for my individual self).

Christianity will of course be at play a great deal due to my upbringing and the fact that I detest how it dumb down and dulls critical thinking in people. It is folly and foolish - I have great respect for Christians - the people - I even think the pastors and clergy are sincere - but they are all sincerely wrong -dead wrong. This side of life is the one and only shot of life you got - then the self-awareness turns off - so use the time to create the most beautiful thing I think a person can - a SELF.

Except the average person does have a sense of self. We are sentient creatures. We are born with it.

If you think that this is something that is owned by an elite, you've got a lot of learning to do about the world.

You might want to start with what we know about the other apes.

What do you mean 'If you think that this is something that is owned by an elite, you've got a lot of learning to do about the world?' - Sincerely have no idea what you mean.

'Except the average person does have a sense of self. We are sentient creatures. We are born with it.'

-well it is certainly developed, we have self-awareness at prob around age 2 as I said previously. And sure they have a sense of self because they have self-awareness - but they don't have a SELF - they don't have an actually identity or personality - without an identity I don't think you have ANY free will period. You have not thought through things to form thoughts prior to actions.

quick example of this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/11013780/Judgements-about-trustworthiness-are-made-in-the-first-second-of-meeting.html

-WE are biological puppets - we think we judge people and make the choice on if we will trust someone or not - because we have self-awareness however we DO NOT. I think this applies in many other area's as well. And the average person certainly does not have a developed identity - they are a creature of whim, impulse. They have not formed their own thoughts of virtues, morality - they believe the nonsense you mentioned previously that I slammed down of being 'born' with good and evil, or believing it was fruit from a tree God told Adam and Eve not to eat. No, the true individual, the free spirit, the person with an actual 'I' - he has formed his own virtue and morality and his actions line up with it so his body is in accord with his spirit - and he may not have total free will, but he has much more freedom then the primitive man.

No, what you are describing is another set of rules of function. Allowing oneself to be driven by whim may be determined or self-determined. You cannot identify the ontological difference.

And frankly all your "philosophical" talk about multiverse and quanta is blah blah. You do not experience this, it is but a learned framework and structured determinism - an existentialist view is, paradoxically, experiential.

^which is why I said existentialism is a movement not a worldview because my worldview would be nihilism however void of the depression and sever sense of angst.

'rules of function' - provide a link or something on what the 'rules of function' are - never heard of this jargon.
'Allowing oneself to be driven by whim may be determined or self-determined. You cannot identify the ontological difference.' - and this is a crock - being driven by whim in the majority of the cases is people simply ignoring their ability of freedom - not choosing is still a choice brother.


And frankly all your "philosophical" talk about multiverse and quanta is blah blah. - wow - really shed light on what my take on quantum physics should be?

and structured determinism - an existentialist view is, paradoxically, experiential. -which still doesn't take away anything away from my points?

CJisinShape

and what about eastern philosophy?

those who reject a clearly defined sense of self because thier introsepection moves them to interpret it as an illusion?

are they precluded from a meaningful life or being thought of as gifted?

Yeah- actually I think they are on to something very profound - the ego death.

^I have personally felt the effects of ego death from messing with substance abuse - hallucinogenics in the past - it is very unnerving -experiencing depersonalization.

I in a sense agree with their line of thinking - quantum physicist as has been mentioned in even this thread keep pointing towards the fact that we are in an illusion or simply in a consciousness.

Once computering power has advanced to the point where we can accurately simulate the big bang... then the simple fact that this is possible makes it infinetly more likely that we are accually living in a computer simulation... because there would be a simulation within that simulation, and so on and so forth, like a russan doll.

I mean, thats BS but its almost hard to work your way out of the logic when you keep thinking about. there are experiments that suggests that matter behaves differently when its being observed, which has been liked to that fact that what is not currently being displayed on a monitor in a computer simulation in some ways does not exist. It exists but not in the same form as precieved on the monitor, it exists only as information in the simulation when not displayed.

when you keep drilling down... there will be no 'smallest particle'. there will only be quantum states... just information that is interpreted by the one percieving... much like the a simulation

Yeah - you are referring to the double slit experiment regarding electrons or protons not letting us observe them - not to mention they are random as crap to begin with. I've said previously this is no way disagrees with any of my stance put forth - In fact I'll be mentioning quantum physics a great deal because I think this is incredibly important.

"All things -- from Brahma the creator down to a single blade of grass -- are. . .simply appearances and not real." - Adi Shankara

If one wants to give an accurate description of the elementary particle. . .the only thing which can be written down as description is a probability function. But then one sees that not even the quality of being. . .belongs to what is described - Werner Heisenberg

Look at your body –
A Painted Puppet, a poor toy
Of Jointed parts ready to collapse,
A diseased and suffering thing
With a head full of false imaginings.
-the Dhammapada.

Just because we don't know where it is doesn't mean that it doesn't exist somewhere at a given moment in time.

yeah I agree with you - but it just will get smaller - till we are talking quirks and leptons - then it gets even smaller - idk we can talk string theory? M-Theory - whatevs - it all points towards a stream of consciousness be it things at the subatomic level or through entanglement.

Not to mention with all the parallel universes in the multiverse - I mean talk about insignificant - my friend through the eyes of the cosmos - that is you and I.

Whatevs. You kind of have to use two opposing arguments to get there. First, there is no meaning and second, that we need to look at ourselves in relationship to that lack of meaning.

However, if there is no meaning, then (woo hoo) I get to create my own: I'm the center of the universe!

If there is meaning, then I have significance in relationship to that meaning. Which is nifty.

In the mean time, just like the bonobos, I need to feed my kids. And that's pretty cool too.

It sounds paradoxical - I mean if you are taking the Bible seriously then you can certainly see through this though.

At the level of the cosmos - no meaning.

The average human - has no meaning, has not even contemplated meaning - they don't even think in terms of true 'self' - I want to shake them up and MAKE them think-which will largely be done through elaborate entertainment of my journey to the 'self' - coupled with philosophy on why I came to the conclusion I did after the fact. They simply assume because they have self-awareness they are entitled to meaning. - simpletons, nothing is wrong with being simple - it seems blissful to them.

Gifted person - experiences an existential crisis- comes to a similar conclusion as me - at the level of the cosmos no meaning - they will die, be forgotten, self awareness turns off. - Because their is no meaning they must select a worldview - I think in this day and age the only acceptable ones are nihilism, existentialism, postmodernism - and I will cover each one and how I coped with each one (and yeah existentialism is just a movement not a world-view ---sure I can accept nihilism, but the only way to cope with the void is to create meaning for my individual self).

Christianity will of course be at play a great deal due to my upbringing and the fact that I detest how it dumb down and dulls critical thinking in people. It is folly and foolish - I have great respect for Christians - the people - I even think the pastors and clergy are sincere - but they are all sincerely wrong -dead wrong. This side of life is the one and only shot of life you got - then the self-awareness turns off - so use the time to create the most beautiful thing I think a person can - a SELF.

And this is why you are depressed.

You have realized the earth is a speck in the universe, your city is a speck on the earth, you are a speck among millions in your city. Even the most important specks in this world - the kings and presidents, are largely forgotten in time in their own nation, and largely never known, let alone forgotten, in other nations.

So you have decided, in your intelligence, that the whole thing is meaningless. And so you are depressed and are crying out in the internet streets to have people understand their great folly and become as depressed and meaningless as you feel existence is.

Meh.

People in the Bible knew, more acutely than you, the brevity and forgettability of a human life. However, they were able to come out of despair because they knew that indeed, it does have meaning, even when they percieved the vanity of their lives. King David asked God:

"What is man, that you are mindful of him? and the son of man, that you visit him?

Sometimes great intelligence comes a skewed perspective: I think therefore it's real. Your philosophical viewpoints are meaningless pits of despair - they are powerless idols, unable to help in times of trouble.

I called out to God when I was carried out by a current at sea: God saved me. I was blind at 14. God comforted me, and now I see without glasses. I had gallbladder disease and healed by a miracle. These are all REAL things, not empty philosophies that have no power to save.

And this is why I am filled with joy and gratitude daily, because though I understand that I am a speck among specks living in a speck on a rotating speck, that there is paradox, that even the very hairs on my head have been counted by the creator of the universe.

And regarding insomnia and overexitability: you need to take a few steps back off of intellectually stimulating material, and set a time threshold, that once passed, you take an over-the-counter sleep aid. You are essentially gorging on brain junk food, and your brain has to process all that info before it rests. Overheating your "cpu" can lead to detrimental effects, as you are currently experiencing. It's not about dumbing yourself down - it's about understanding your own physiology and caring enough about your health to stop gorging.

And if you really want to be happy? Start thanking God every day for your blessings, and name them. Game changer.

likitisplit

and what about eastern philosophy?

those who reject a clearly defined sense of self because thier introsepection moves them to interpret it as an illusion?

are they precluded from a meaningful life or being thought of as gifted?

Yeah- actually I think they are on to something very profound - the ego death.

^I have personally felt the effects of ego death from messing with substance abuse - hallucinogenics in the past - it is very unnerving -experiencing depersonalization.

I in a sense agree with their line of thinking - quantum physicist as has been mentioned in even this thread keep pointing towards the fact that we are in an illusion or simply in a consciousness.

Once computering power has advanced to the point where we can accurately simulate the big bang... then the simple fact that this is possible makes it infinetly more likely that we are accually living in a computer simulation... because there would be a simulation within that simulation, and so on and so forth, like a russan doll.

I mean, thats BS but its almost hard to work your way out of the logic when you keep thinking about. there are experiments that suggests that matter behaves differently when its being observed, which has been liked to that fact that what is not currently being displayed on a monitor in a computer simulation in some ways does not exist. It exists but not in the same form as precieved on the monitor, it exists only as information in the simulation when not displayed.

when you keep drilling down... there will be no 'smallest particle'. there will only be quantum states... just information that is interpreted by the one percieving... much like the a simulation

Yeah - you are referring to the double slit experiment regarding electrons or protons not letting us observe them - not to mention they are random as crap to begin with. I've said previously this is no way disagrees with any of my stance put forth - In fact I'll be mentioning quantum physics a great deal because I think this is incredibly important.

"All things -- from Brahma the creator down to a single blade of grass -- are. . .simply appearances and not real." - Adi Shankara

If one wants to give an accurate description of the elementary particle. . .the only thing which can be written down as description is a probability function. But then one sees that not even the quality of being. . .belongs to what is described - Werner Heisenberg

Look at your body –
A Painted Puppet, a poor toy
Of Jointed parts ready to collapse,
A diseased and suffering thing
With a head full of false imaginings.
-the Dhammapada.

Just because we don't know where it is doesn't mean that it doesn't exist somewhere at a given moment in time.

yeah I agree with you - but it just will get smaller - till we are talking quirks and leptons - then it gets even smaller - idk we can talk string theory? M-Theory - whatevs - it all points towards a stream of consciousness be it things at the subatomic level or through entanglement.

Not to mention with all the parallel universes in the multiverse - I mean talk about insignificant - my friend through the eyes of the cosmos - that is you and I.

Whatevs. You kind of have to use two opposing arguments to get there. First, there is no meaning and second, that we need to look at ourselves in relationship to that lack of meaning.

However, if there is no meaning, then (woo hoo) I get to create my own: I'm the center of the universe!

If there is meaning, then I have significance in relationship to that meaning. Which is nifty.

In the mean time, just like the bonobos, I need to feed my kids. And that's pretty cool too.

It sounds paradoxical - I mean if you are taking the Bible seriously then you can certainly see through this though.

At the level of the cosmos - no meaning.

The average human - has no meaning, has not even contemplated meaning - they don't even think in terms of true 'self' - I want to shake them up and MAKE them think-which will largely be done through elaborate entertainment of my journey to the 'self' - coupled with philosophy on why I came to the conclusion I did after the fact. They simply assume because they have self-awareness they are entitled to meaning. - simpletons, nothing is wrong with being simple - it seems blissful to them.

Gifted person - experiences an existential crisis- comes to a similar conclusion as me - at the level of the cosmos no meaning - they will die, be forgotten, self awareness turns off. - Because their is no meaning they must select a worldview - I think in this day and age the only acceptable ones are nihilism, existentialism, postmodernism - and I will cover each one and how I coped with each one (and yeah existentialism is just a movement not a world-view ---sure I can accept nihilism, but the only way to cope with the void is to create meaning for my individual self).

Christianity will of course be at play a great deal due to my upbringing and the fact that I detest how it dumb down and dulls critical thinking in people. It is folly and foolish - I have great respect for Christians - the people - I even think the pastors and clergy are sincere - but they are all sincerely wrong -dead wrong. This side of life is the one and only shot of life you got - then the self-awareness turns off - so use the time to create the most beautiful thing I think a person can - a SELF.

Except the average person does have a sense of self. We are sentient creatures. We are born with it.

If you think that this is something that is owned by an elite, you've got a lot of learning to do about the world.

You might want to start with what we know about the other apes.

What do you mean 'If you think that this is something that is owned by an elite, you've got a lot of learning to do about the world?' - Sincerely have no idea what you mean.

'Except the average person does have a sense of self. We are sentient creatures. We are born with it.'

-well it is certainly developed, we have self-awareness at prob around age 2 as I said previously. And sure they have a sense of self because they have self-awareness - but they don't have a SELF - they don't have an actually identity or personality - without an identity I don't think you have ANY free will period. You have not thought through things to form thoughts prior to actions.

quick example of this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/11013780/Judgements-about-trustworthiness-are-made-in-the-first-second-of-meeting.html

-WE are biological puppets - we think we judge people and make the choice on if we will trust someone or not - because we have self-awareness however we DO NOT. I think this applies in many other area's as well. And the average person certainly does not have a developed identity - they are a creature of whim, impulse. They have not formed their own thoughts of virtues, morality - they believe the nonsense you mentioned previously that I slammed down of being 'born' with good and evil, or believing it was fruit from a tree God told Adam and Eve not to eat. No, the true individual, the free spirit, the person with an actual 'I' - he has formed his own virtue and morality and his actions line up with it so his body is in accord with his spirit - and he may not have total free will, but he has much more freedom then the primitive man.

:noway:

You might want to check out the work that's been done with Attitude/Behavior Consistency. You can make people do strange things when you approach our biological blind spots in a certain way, but people also tend to be really robust in their base personalities.

You can make somebody want something in the moment by framing it well. But three weeks later, they'll be back to where they were initially. It's really, really hard to get people to fundamentally change in any way. REALLY hard.

Also, recognize that a lot of the heuristics we use have made us extremely successful in the natural world and that, as a species, we're pretty good at abandoning them when needed. Yes, you can prove experimentally that they're there. But in the real world, there's a lot more going on.

Although, I think that the loan crisis partially played out the way it did because it was more-or-less designed to blind side us as a species. But we could have recognized it and done something about it on the macro-scale too.

Well let's stay clear of the loan crisis -economics is my first love so I don't want to get on the craziest of tangents or derail this thread because I make a very valid case.

And 'people tend to be really robust in their base personality' - the fact that they have a base personality - they can be put in a nice little box - a choice between 1 of 16 personality types speaks volumes about how non-unique and how little free will there is. You are letting the tail wag the dog. The fact the average person can be thrown in a little box for marketing to take place, and for psychologist to hit, for my companies executives to know how to manipulate us - that in and of itself tells me their is a lack of a true 'self'.


'You can make somebody want something in the moment by framing it well. But three weeks later, they'll be back to where they were initially. It's really, really hard to get people to fundamentally change in any way. REALLY hard.' -this is true, but believe me - when I enter the life of a person they feel my fingerprint on them FOREVER this is how I nail relationships with clients and people, women - as quickly and as in-depth as I want. The overexcitabilities I demonstrate provide me with an uncanny sense of awareness of the other person, my boss in sales loves this because he says I can 'play' people like Jimmy Page can 'play' the guitar - I of course as a drug addict used this to harness manipulation techniques that were otherworldly - 'Loki like' Of course now I use techniques to create influential factors in all meetings - and I jump into the sea of issues - mirroring for me comes more naturally then you could possibly imagine - Like a human Chameleon - I'm the guy who is at a publicly traded company selling to the CFO, and that night I'm shirtless walking through Kensington, perfectly safe - being in character looking for a relapsed buddy. I can connect to people - and I can do this because I sincerely care. I love people. I love their experiences, their take on reality, their attempt to make meaning for them-self. David Foster Wallace said when you go to someone ask them what is wrong and they will always make the case of 'How did you know?' - This is indeed true - everyone is suffering. Everyone has a sense of loneliness, and I have been blessed with a face and makeup where people just confide in me off of initial introductions - I of course feign a sense of vulnerability as well - but I'm personally blessed in this regard. So I agree for the average person it is incredibly hard to fundamentally change people - but I have done it repeatedly my entire life. Creating paradigm shifts in people gives me a joy that you couldn't imagine.

My husband is a sales guy too and every bit as much a chameleon. I can tell you this: you don't fundamentally change people. You get people to shift their behavior in the moment. And maybe many moments. But, over time, they're are going to drift back to who they essentially are. Who they were born as.

The 16 boxes are just that: boxes. Constructs. The real world is infinitely more complex (and less complex. Essentially we're all apes and driven by our ape senses. This narrows the field. But almost every one of us could imagine ourselves a jaguar.)

MrTolerable

and what about eastern philosophy?

those who reject a clearly defined sense of self because thier introsepection moves them to interpret it as an illusion?

are they precluded from a meaningful life or being thought of as gifted?

Yeah- actually I think they are on to something very profound - the ego death.

^I have personally felt the effects of ego death from messing with substance abuse - hallucinogenics in the past - it is very unnerving -experiencing depersonalization.

I in a sense agree with their line of thinking - quantum physicist as has been mentioned in even this thread keep pointing towards the fact that we are in an illusion or simply in a consciousness.

Once computering power has advanced to the point where we can accurately simulate the big bang... then the simple fact that this is possible makes it infinetly more likely that we are accually living in a computer simulation... because there would be a simulation within that simulation, and so on and so forth, like a russan doll.

I mean, thats BS but its almost hard to work your way out of the logic when you keep thinking about. there are experiments that suggests that matter behaves differently when its being observed, which has been liked to that fact that what is not currently being displayed on a monitor in a computer simulation in some ways does not exist. It exists but not in the same form as precieved on the monitor, it exists only as information in the simulation when not displayed.

when you keep drilling down... there will be no 'smallest particle'. there will only be quantum states... just information that is interpreted by the one percieving... much like the a simulation

Yeah - you are referring to the double slit experiment regarding electrons or protons not letting us observe them - not to mention they are random as crap to begin with. I've said previously this is no way disagrees with any of my stance put forth - In fact I'll be mentioning quantum physics a great deal because I think this is incredibly important.

"All things -- from Brahma the creator down to a single blade of grass -- are. . .simply appearances and not real." - Adi Shankara

If one wants to give an accurate description of the elementary particle. . .the only thing which can be written down as description is a probability function. But then one sees that not even the quality of being. . .belongs to what is described - Werner Heisenberg

Look at your body –
A Painted Puppet, a poor toy
Of Jointed parts ready to collapse,
A diseased and suffering thing
With a head full of false imaginings.
-the Dhammapada.

Just because we don't know where it is doesn't mean that it doesn't exist somewhere at a given moment in time.

yeah I agree with you - but it just will get smaller - till we are talking quirks and leptons - then it gets even smaller - idk we can talk string theory? M-Theory - whatevs - it all points towards a stream of consciousness be it things at the subatomic level or through entanglement.

Not to mention with all the parallel universes in the multiverse - I mean talk about insignificant - my friend through the eyes of the cosmos - that is you and I.

Whatevs. You kind of have to use two opposing arguments to get there. First, there is no meaning and second, that we need to look at ourselves in relationship to that lack of meaning.

However, if there is no meaning, then (woo hoo) I get to create my own: I'm the center of the universe!

If there is meaning, then I have significance in relationship to that meaning. Which is nifty.

In the mean time, just like the bonobos, I need to feed my kids. And that's pretty cool too.

It sounds paradoxical - I mean if you are taking the Bible seriously then you can certainly see through this though.

At the level of the cosmos - no meaning.

The average human - has no meaning, has not even contemplated meaning - they don't even think in terms of true 'self' - I want to shake them up and MAKE them think-which will largely be done through elaborate entertainment of my journey to the 'self' - coupled with philosophy on why I came to the conclusion I did after the fact. They simply assume because they have self-awareness they are entitled to meaning. - simpletons, nothing is wrong with being simple - it seems blissful to them.

Gifted person - experiences an existential crisis- comes to a similar conclusion as me - at the level of the cosmos no meaning - they will die, be forgotten, self awareness turns off. - Because their is no meaning they must select a worldview - I think in this day and age the only acceptable ones are nihilism, existentialism, postmodernism - and I will cover each one and how I coped with each one (and yeah existentialism is just a movement not a world-view ---sure I can accept nihilism, but the only way to cope with the void is to create meaning for my individual self).

Christianity will of course be at play a great deal due to my upbringing and the fact that I detest how it dumb down and dulls critical thinking in people. It is folly and foolish - I have great respect for Christians - the people - I even think the pastors and clergy are sincere - but they are all sincerely wrong -dead wrong. This side of life is the one and only shot of life you got - then the self-awareness turns off - so use the time to create the most beautiful thing I think a person can - a SELF.

Except the average person does have a sense of self. We are sentient creatures. We are born with it.

If you think that this is something that is owned by an elite, you've got a lot of learning to do about the world.

You might want to start with what we know about the other apes.

What do you mean 'If you think that this is something that is owned by an elite, you've got a lot of learning to do about the world?' - Sincerely have no idea what you mean.

'Except the average person does have a sense of self. We are sentient creatures. We are born with it.'

-well it is certainly developed, we have self-awareness at prob around age 2 as I said previously. And sure they have a sense of self because they have self-awareness - but they don't have a SELF - they don't have an actually identity or personality - without an identity I don't think you have ANY free will period. You have not thought through things to form thoughts prior to actions.

quick example of this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/11013780/Judgements-about-trustworthiness-are-made-in-the-first-second-of-meeting.html

-WE are biological puppets - we think we judge people and make the choice on if we will trust someone or not - because we have self-awareness however we DO NOT. I think this applies in many other area's as well. And the average person certainly does not have a developed identity - they are a creature of whim, impulse. They have not formed their own thoughts of virtues, morality - they believe the nonsense you mentioned previously that I slammed down of being 'born' with good and evil, or believing it was fruit from a tree God told Adam and Eve not to eat. No, the true individual, the free spirit, the person with an actual 'I' - he has formed his own virtue and morality and his actions line up with it so his body is in accord with his spirit - and he may not have total free will, but he has much more freedom then the primitive man.

:noway:

You might want to check out the work that's been done with Attitude/Behavior Consistency. You can make people do strange things when you approach our biological blind spots in a certain way, but people also tend to be really robust in their base personalities.

You can make somebody want something in the moment by framing it well. But three weeks later, they'll be back to where they were initially. It's really, really hard to get people to fundamentally change in any way. REALLY hard.

Also, recognize that a lot of the heuristics we use have made us extremely successful in the natural world and that, as a species, we're pretty good at abandoning them when needed. Yes, you can prove experimentally that they're there. But in the real world, there's a lot more going on.

Although, I think that the loan crisis partially played out the way it did because it was more-or-less designed to blind side us as a species. But we could have recognized it and done something about it on the macro-scale too.

Well let's stay clear of the loan crisis -economics is my first love so I don't want to get on the craziest of tangents or derail this thread because I make a very valid case.

And 'people tend to be really robust in their base personality' - the fact that they have a base personality - they can be put in a nice little box - a choice between 1 of 16 personality types speaks volumes about how non-unique and how little free will there is. You are letting the tail wag the dog. The fact the average person can be thrown in a little box for marketing to take place, and for psychologist to hit, for my companies executives to know how to manipulate us - that in and of itself tells me their is a lack of a true 'self'.


'You can make somebody want something in the moment by framing it well. But three weeks later, they'll be back to where they were initially. It's really, really hard to get people to fundamentally change in any way. REALLY hard.' -this is true, but believe me - when I enter the life of a person they feel my fingerprint on them FOREVER this is how I nail relationships with clients and people, women - as quickly and as in-depth as I want. The overexcitabilities I demonstrate provide me with an uncanny sense of awareness of the other person, my boss in sales loves this because he says I can 'play' people like Jimmy Page can 'play' the guitar - I of course as a drug addict used this to harness manipulation techniques that were otherworldly - 'Loki like' Of course now I use techniques to create influential factors in all meetings - and I jump into the sea of issues - mirroring for me comes more naturally then you could possibly imagine - Like a human Chameleon - I'm the guy who is at a publicly traded company selling to the CFO, and that night I'm shirtless walking through Kensington, perfectly safe - being in character looking for a relapsed buddy. I can connect to people - and I can do this because I sincerely care. I love people. I love their experiences, their take on reality, their attempt to make meaning for them-self. David Foster Wallace said when you go to someone ask them what is wrong and they will always make the case of 'How did you know?' - This is indeed true - everyone is suffering. Everyone has a sense of loneliness, and I have been blessed with a face and makeup where people just confide in me off of initial introductions - I of course feign a sense of vulnerability as well - but I'm personally blessed in this regard. So I agree for the average person it is incredibly hard to fundamentally change people - but I have done it repeatedly my entire life. Creating paradigm shifts in people gives me a joy that you couldn't imagine.

My husband is a sales guy too and every bit as much a chameleon. I can tell you this: you don't fundamentally change people. You get people to shift their behavior in the moment. And maybe many moments. But, over time, they're are going to drift back to who they essentially are. Who they were born as.

The 16 boxes are just that: boxes. Constructs. The real world is infinitely more complex (and less complex. Essentially we're all apes and driven by our ape senses. This narrows the field. But almost every one of us could imagine ourselves a jaguar.)

I disagree - experience and interactions change people.

Some really brief examples of this - torture - I am a different person having been tortured - if you have been tortured and I mean 'torture' torture - this changed my entire makeup. - looking back it was even healthy - very healthy - it aided a great deal in expediting the process of me becoming 'me'.

Even Influential people- When I was reprogramming myself getting out of substance abuse I had to latch on to people who I wanted to become like - to break away from myself- my former self. If you were to compare me in 6 months blocks through out my life you would see a drastic process of evolving of the 'self' - you are not born as anyone - you are in a state of non-being. You just are. Just because you have self-awareness does not give you an automatic identity despite the illusion of it.

'The 16 boxes are just that: boxes. Constructs. The real world is infinitely more complex (and less complex. Essentially we're all apes and driven by our ape senses. This narrows the field. But almost every one of us could imagine ourselves a jaguar.)'
-I see your point, but I disagree - if you could imagine yourself as your ideal self (which even that is a very difficult and tedious task)- start to shape it- think it all through, form your opinions- and line up your behavior with it - then you are your ideal. I'd say my ideal is as drastic from primitive form of man as man is from monkey. - I say that, but keep in mind I make no claim of being my ideal

---

YET.

MrTolerable

and what about eastern philosophy?

those who reject a clearly defined sense of self because thier introsepection moves them to interpret it as an illusion?

are they precluded from a meaningful life or being thought of as gifted?

Yeah- actually I think they are on to something very profound - the ego death.

^I have personally felt the effects of ego death from messing with substance abuse - hallucinogenics in the past - it is very unnerving -experiencing depersonalization.

I in a sense agree with their line of thinking - quantum physicist as has been mentioned in even this thread keep pointing towards the fact that we are in an illusion or simply in a consciousness.

Once computering power has advanced to the point where we can accurately simulate the big bang... then the simple fact that this is possible makes it infinetly more likely that we are accually living in a computer simulation... because there would be a simulation within that simulation, and so on and so forth, like a russan doll.

I mean, thats BS but its almost hard to work your way out of the logic when you keep thinking about. there are experiments that suggests that matter behaves differently when its being observed, which has been liked to that fact that what is not currently being displayed on a monitor in a computer simulation in some ways does not exist. It exists but not in the same form as precieved on the monitor, it exists only as information in the simulation when not displayed.

when you keep drilling down... there will be no 'smallest particle'. there will only be quantum states... just information that is interpreted by the one percieving... much like the a simulation

Yeah - you are referring to the double slit experiment regarding electrons or protons not letting us observe them - not to mention they are random as crap to begin with. I've said previously this is no way disagrees with any of my stance put forth - In fact I'll be mentioning quantum physics a great deal because I think this is incredibly important.

"All things -- from Brahma the creator down to a single blade of grass -- are. . .simply appearances and not real." - Adi Shankara

If one wants to give an accurate description of the elementary particle. . .the only thing which can be written down as description is a probability function. But then one sees that not even the quality of being. . .belongs to what is described - Werner Heisenberg

Look at your body –
A Painted Puppet, a poor toy
Of Jointed parts ready to collapse,
A diseased and suffering thing
With a head full of false imaginings.
-the Dhammapada.

Just because we don't know where it is doesn't mean that it doesn't exist somewhere at a given moment in time.

yeah I agree with you - but it just will get smaller - till we are talking quirks and leptons - then it gets even smaller - idk we can talk string theory? M-Theory - whatevs - it all points towards a stream of consciousness be it things at the subatomic level or through entanglement.

Not to mention with all the parallel universes in the multiverse - I mean talk about insignificant - my friend through the eyes of the cosmos - that is you and I.

Whatevs. You kind of have to use two opposing arguments to get there. First, there is no meaning and second, that we need to look at ourselves in relationship to that lack of meaning.

However, if there is no meaning, then (woo hoo) I get to create my own: I'm the center of the universe!

If there is meaning, then I have significance in relationship to that meaning. Which is nifty.

In the mean time, just like the bonobos, I need to feed my kids. And that's pretty cool too.

It sounds paradoxical - I mean if you are taking the Bible seriously then you can certainly see through this though.

At the level of the cosmos - no meaning.

The average human - has no meaning, has not even contemplated meaning - they don't even think in terms of true 'self' - I want to shake them up and MAKE them think-which will largely be done through elaborate entertainment of my journey to the 'self' - coupled with philosophy on why I came to the conclusion I did after the fact. They simply assume because they have self-awareness they are entitled to meaning. - simpletons, nothing is wrong with being simple - it seems blissful to them.

Gifted person - experiences an existential crisis- comes to a similar conclusion as me - at the level of the cosmos no meaning - they will die, be forgotten, self awareness turns off. - Because their is no meaning they must select a worldview - I think in this day and age the only acceptable ones are nihilism, existentialism, postmodernism - and I will cover each one and how I coped with each one (and yeah existentialism is just a movement not a world-view ---sure I can accept nihilism, but the only way to cope with the void is to create meaning for my individual self).

Christianity will of course be at play a great deal due to my upbringing and the fact that I detest how it dumb down and dulls critical thinking in people. It is folly and foolish - I have great respect for Christians - the people - I even think the pastors and clergy are sincere - but they are all sincerely wrong -dead wrong. This side of life is the one and only shot of life you got - then the self-awareness turns off - so use the time to create the most beautiful thing I think a person can - a SELF.

And this is why you are depressed.

You have realized the earth is a speck in the universe, your city is a speck on the earth, you are a speck among millions in your city. Even the most important specks in this world - the kings and presidents, are largely forgotten in time in their own nation, and largely never known, let alone forgotten, in other nations.

So you have decided, in your intelligence, that the whole thing is meaningless. And so you are depressed and are crying out in the internet streets to have people understand their great folly and become as depressed and meaningless as you feel existence is.

Meh.

People in the Bible knew, more acutely than you, the brevity and forgettability of a human life. However, they were able to come out of despair because they knew that indeed, it does have meaning, even when they percieved the vanity of their lives. King David asked God:

"What is man, that you are mindful of him? and the son of man, that you visit him?

Sometimes great intelligence comes a skewed perspective: I think therefore it's real. Your philosophical viewpoints are meaningless pits of despair - they are powerless idols, unable to help in times of trouble.

I called out to God when I was carried out by a current at sea: God saved me. I was blind at 14. God comforted me, and now I see without glasses. I had gallbladder disease and healed by a miracle. These are all REAL things, not empty philosophies that have no power to save.

And this is why I am filled with joy and gratitude daily, because though I understand that I am a speck among specks living in a speck on a rotating speck, that there is paradox, that even the very hairs on my head have been counted by the creator of the universe.

And regarding insomnia and overexitability: you need to take a few steps back off of intellectually stimulating material, and set a time threshold, that once passed, you take an over-the-counter sleep aid. You are essentially gorging on brain junk food, and your brain has to process all that info before it rests. Overheating your "cpu" can lead to detrimental effects, as you are currently experiencing. It's not about dumbing yourself down - it's about understanding your own physiology and caring enough about your health to stop gorging.

And if you really want to be happy? Start thanking God every day for your blessings, and name them. Game changer.

I'm not depressed. I see and welcome your genuine spirit - I believe you are incredibly sincere. :flowerforyou: I spent far more time exploring theology, more so intellectually, even explored all the cults and occults - there just no way I can believe in any of it - it's not real - there is almost surely no God in this universe.

sixout

likitisplit

and what about eastern philosophy?

those who reject a clearly defined sense of self because thier introsepection moves them to interpret it as an illusion?

are they precluded from a meaningful life or being thought of as gifted?

Yeah- actually I think they are on to something very profound - the ego death.

^I have personally felt the effects of ego death from messing with substance abuse - hallucinogenics in the past - it is very unnerving -experiencing depersonalization.

I in a sense agree with their line of thinking - quantum physicist as has been mentioned in even this thread keep pointing towards the fact that we are in an illusion or simply in a consciousness.

Once computering power has advanced to the point where we can accurately simulate the big bang... then the simple fact that this is possible makes it infinetly more likely that we are accually living in a computer simulation... because there would be a simulation within that simulation, and so on and so forth, like a russan doll.

I mean, thats BS but its almost hard to work your way out of the logic when you keep thinking about. there are experiments that suggests that matter behaves differently when its being observed, which has been liked to that fact that what is not currently being displayed on a monitor in a computer simulation in some ways does not exist. It exists but not in the same form as precieved on the monitor, it exists only as information in the simulation when not displayed.

when you keep drilling down... there will be no 'smallest particle'. there will only be quantum states... just information that is interpreted by the one percieving... much like the a simulation

Yeah - you are referring to the double slit experiment regarding electrons or protons not letting us observe them - not to mention they are random as crap to begin with. I've said previously this is no way disagrees with any of my stance put forth - In fact I'll be mentioning quantum physics a great deal because I think this is incredibly important.

"All things -- from Brahma the creator down to a single blade of grass -- are. . .simply appearances and not real." - Adi Shankara

If one wants to give an accurate description of the elementary particle. . .the only thing which can be written down as description is a probability function. But then one sees that not even the quality of being. . .belongs to what is described - Werner Heisenberg

Look at your body –
A Painted Puppet, a poor toy
Of Jointed parts ready to collapse,
A diseased and suffering thing
With a head full of false imaginings.
-the Dhammapada.

Just because we don't know where it is doesn't mean that it doesn't exist somewhere at a given moment in time.

yeah I agree with you - but it just will get smaller - till we are talking quirks and leptons - then it gets even smaller - idk we can talk string theory? M-Theory - whatevs - it all points towards a stream of consciousness be it things at the subatomic level or through entanglement.

Not to mention with all the parallel universes in the multiverse - I mean talk about insignificant - my friend through the eyes of the cosmos - that is you and I.

Whatevs. You kind of have to use two opposing arguments to get there. First, there is no meaning and second, that we need to look at ourselves in relationship to that lack of meaning.

However, if there is no meaning, then (woo hoo) I get to create my own: I'm the center of the universe!

If there is meaning, then I have significance in relationship to that meaning. Which is nifty.

In the mean time, just like the bonobos, I need to feed my kids. And that's pretty cool too.

It sounds paradoxical - I mean if you are taking the Bible seriously then you can certainly see through this though.

At the level of the cosmos - no meaning.

The average human - has no meaning, has not even contemplated meaning - they don't even think in terms of true 'self' - I want to shake them up and MAKE them think-which will largely be done through elaborate entertainment of my journey to the 'self' - coupled with philosophy on why I came to the conclusion I did after the fact. They simply assume because they have self-awareness they are entitled to meaning. - simpletons, nothing is wrong with being simple - it seems blissful to them.

Gifted person - experiences an existential crisis- comes to a similar conclusion as me - at the level of the cosmos no meaning - they will die, be forgotten, self awareness turns off. - Because their is no meaning they must select a worldview - I think in this day and age the only acceptable ones are nihilism, existentialism, postmodernism - and I will cover each one and how I coped with each one (and yeah existentialism is just a movement not a world-view ---sure I can accept nihilism, but the only way to cope with the void is to create meaning for my individual self).

Christianity will of course be at play a great deal due to my upbringing and the fact that I detest how it dumb down and dulls critical thinking in people. It is folly and foolish - I have great respect for Christians - the people - I even think the pastors and clergy are sincere - but they are all sincerely wrong -dead wrong. This side of life is the one and only shot of life you got - then the self-awareness turns off - so use the time to create the most beautiful thing I think a person can - a SELF.

Except the average person does have a sense of self. We are sentient creatures. We are born with it.

If you think that this is something that is owned by an elite, you've got a lot of learning to do about the world.

You might want to start with what we know about the other apes.

What do you mean 'If you think that this is something that is owned by an elite, you've got a lot of learning to do about the world?' - Sincerely have no idea what you mean.

'Except the average person does have a sense of self. We are sentient creatures. We are born with it.'

-well it is certainly developed, we have self-awareness at prob around age 2 as I said previously. And sure they have a sense of self because they have self-awareness - but they don't have a SELF - they don't have an actually identity or personality - without an identity I don't think you have ANY free will period. You have not thought through things to form thoughts prior to actions.

quick example of this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/11013780/Judgements-about-trustworthiness-are-made-in-the-first-second-of-meeting.html

-WE are biological puppets - we think we judge people and make the choice on if we will trust someone or not - because we have self-awareness however we DO NOT. I think this applies in many other area's as well. And the average person certainly does not have a developed identity - they are a creature of whim, impulse. They have not formed their own thoughts of virtues, morality - they believe the nonsense you mentioned previously that I slammed down of being 'born' with good and evil, or believing it was fruit from a tree God told Adam and Eve not to eat. No, the true individual, the free spirit, the person with an actual 'I' - he has formed his own virtue and morality and his actions line up with it so his body is in accord with his spirit - and he may not have total free will, but he has much more freedom then the primitive man.

:noway:

You might want to check out the work that's been done with Attitude/Behavior Consistency. You can make people do strange things when you approach our biological blind spots in a certain way, but people also tend to be really robust in their base personalities.

You can make somebody want something in the moment by framing it well. But three weeks later, they'll be back to where they were initially. It's really, really hard to get people to fundamentally change in any way. REALLY hard.

Also, recognize that a lot of the heuristics we use have made us extremely successful in the natural world and that, as a species, we're pretty good at abandoning them when needed. Yes, you can prove experimentally that they're there. But in the real world, there's a lot more going on.

Although, I think that the loan crisis partially played out the way it did because it was more-or-less designed to blind side us as a species. But we could have recognized it and done something about it on the macro-scale too.

Well let's stay clear of the loan crisis -economics is my first love so I don't want to get on the craziest of tangents or derail this thread because I make a very valid case.

And 'people tend to be really robust in their base personality' - the fact that they have a base personality - they can be put in a nice little box - a choice between 1 of 16 personality types speaks volumes about how non-unique and how little free will there is. You are letting the tail wag the dog. The fact the average person can be thrown in a little box for marketing to take place, and for psychologist to hit, for my companies executives to know how to manipulate us - that in and of itself tells me their is a lack of a true 'self'.


'You can make somebody want something in the moment by framing it well. But three weeks later, they'll be back to where they were initially. It's really, really hard to get people to fundamentally change in any way. REALLY hard.' -this is true, but believe me - when I enter the life of a person they feel my fingerprint on them FOREVER this is how I nail relationships with clients and people, women - as quickly and as in-depth as I want. The overexcitabilities I demonstrate provide me with an uncanny sense of awareness of the other person, my boss in sales loves this because he says I can 'play' people like Jimmy Page can 'play' the guitar - I of course as a drug addict used this to harness manipulation techniques that were otherworldly - 'Loki like' Of course now I use techniques to create influential factors in all meetings - and I jump into the sea of issues - mirroring for me comes more naturally then you could possibly imagine - Like a human Chameleon - I'm the guy who is at a publicly traded company selling to the CFO, and that night I'm shirtless walking through Kensington, perfectly safe - being in character looking for a relapsed buddy. I can connect to people - and I can do this because I sincerely care. I love people. I love their experiences, their take on reality, their attempt to make meaning for them-self. David Foster Wallace said when you go to someone ask them what is wrong and they will always make the case of 'How did you know?' - This is indeed true - everyone is suffering. Everyone has a sense of loneliness, and I have been blessed with a face and makeup where people just confide in me off of initial introductions - I of course feign a sense of vulnerability as well - but I'm personally blessed in this regard. So I agree for the average person it is incredibly hard to fundamentally change people - but I have done it repeatedly my entire life. Creating paradigm shifts in people gives me a joy that you couldn't imagine.

My husband is a sales guy too and every bit as much a chameleon. I can tell you this: you don't fundamentally change people. You get people to shift their behavior in the moment. And maybe many moments. But, over time, they're are going to drift back to who they essentially are. Who they were born as.

The 16 boxes are just that: boxes. Constructs. The real world is infinitely more complex (and less complex. Essentially we're all apes and driven by our ape senses. This narrows the field. But almost every one of us could imagine ourselves a jaguar.)

I disagree - experience and interactions change people.

Some really brief examples of this - torture - I am a different person having been tortured - if you have been tortured and I mean 'torture' torture - this changed my entire makeup. - looking back it was even healthy - very healthy - it aided a great deal in expediting the process of me becoming 'me'.

Even Influential people- When I was reprogramming myself getting out of substance abuse I had to latch on to people who I wanted to become like - to break away from myself- my former self. If you were to compare me in 6 months blocks through out my life you would see a drastic process of evolving of the 'self' - you are not born as anyone - you are in a state of non-being. You just are. Just because you have self-awareness does not give you an automatic identity despite the illusion of it.

'The 16 boxes are just that: boxes. Constructs. The real world is infinitely more complex (and less complex. Essentially we're all apes and driven by our ape senses. This narrows the field. But almost every one of us could imagine ourselves a jaguar.)'
-I see your point, but I disagree - if you could imagine yourself as your ideal self (which even that is a very difficult and tedious task)- start to shape it- think it all through, form your opinions- and line up your behavior with it - then you are your ideal. I'd say my ideal is as drastic from primitive form of man as man is from monkey. - I say that, but keep in mind I make no claim of being my ideal

---

YET.

And I'd still like you to define primitive man.

Also monkey.

Yes, torture is one of the few things that changes personality after adulthood. Chronic stress. Chronic starvation. Injury and illness can affect the personality, sometimes permanently. The list is pretty short. Because who YOU are is robust.

rml_16

And this is why you are depressed.

You have realized the earth is a speck in the universe, your city is a speck on the earth, you are a speck among millions in your city. Even the most important specks in this world - the kings and presidents, are largely forgotten in time in their own nation, and largely never known, let alone forgotten, in other nations.

So you have decided, in your intelligence, that the whole thing is meaningless. And so you are depressed and are crying out in the internet streets to have people understand their great folly and become as depressed and meaningless as you feel existence is.

Meh.

People in the Bible knew, more acutely than you, the brevity and forgettability of a human life. However, they were able to come out of despair because they knew that indeed, it does have meaning, even when they percieved the vanity of their lives. King David asked God:

"What is man, that you are mindful of him? and the son of man, that you visit him?

Sometimes great intelligence comes a skewed perspective: I think therefore it's real. Your philosophical viewpoints are meaningless pits of despair - they are powerless idols, unable to help in times of trouble.

I called out to God when I was carried out by a current at sea: God saved me. I was blind at 14. God comforted me, and now I see without glasses. I had gallbladder disease and healed by a miracle. These are all REAL things, not empty philosophies that have no power to save.

And this is why I am filled with joy and gratitude daily, because though I understand that I am a speck among specks living in a speck on a rotating speck, that there is paradox, that even the very hairs on my head have been counted by the creator of the universe.

And regarding insomnia and overexitability: you need to take a few steps back off of intellectually stimulating material, and set a time threshold, that once passed, you take an over-the-counter sleep aid. You are essentially gorging on brain junk food, and your brain has to process all that info before it rests. Overheating your "cpu" can lead to detrimental effects, as you are currently experiencing. It's not about dumbing yourself down - it's about understanding your own physiology and caring enough about your health to stop gorging.

And if you really want to be happy? Start thanking God every day for your blessings, and name them. Game changer.

I don't believe in any of this and I am not unhappy. God isn't necessary for happiness. He's depressed because he thinks he's smarter than everyone else and super special and we're all just lemmings headed off the cliff and don't care. He's depressed because he thinks he knows more than other people, which he doesn't. He appears to have very little genuine or useful life experiences.

I'm not an atheist, but I definitely do not believe in the Bible-centered religions (Christianity, Islam, Judaism). What I do believe is that there is order in the universe and balance and that in the end, whether we're forgotten by mankind or remembered, no matter what we do in our lives, if what we do matters to ourselves and we enjoyed our time here, it's OK if we're just a speck of dust to someone on the other side of the street or the other side of the planet. My purpose is not to make everyone know and love me. My purpose is to be happy in my life while at least trying not to harm other people (and in my case, animals).

MrTolerable

and what about eastern philosophy?

those who reject a clearly defined sense of self because thier introsepection moves them to interpret it as an illusion?

are they precluded from a meaningful life or being thought of as gifted?

Yeah- actually I think they are on to something very profound - the ego death.

^I have personally felt the effects of ego death from messing with substance abuse - hallucinogenics in the past - it is very unnerving -experiencing depersonalization.

I in a sense agree with their line of thinking - quantum physicist as has been mentioned in even this thread keep pointing towards the fact that we are in an illusion or simply in a consciousness.

Once computering power has advanced to the point where we can accurately simulate the big bang... then the simple fact that this is possible makes it infinetly more likely that we are accually living in a computer simulation... because there would be a simulation within that simulation, and so on and so forth, like a russan doll.

I mean, thats BS but its almost hard to work your way out of the logic when you keep thinking about. there are experiments that suggests that matter behaves differently when its being observed, which has been liked to that fact that what is not currently being displayed on a monitor in a computer simulation in some ways does not exist. It exists but not in the same form as precieved on the monitor, it exists only as information in the simulation when not displayed.

when you keep drilling down... there will be no 'smallest particle'. there will only be quantum states... just information that is interpreted by the one percieving... much like the a simulation

Yeah - you are referring to the double slit experiment regarding electrons or protons not letting us observe them - not to mention they are random as crap to begin with. I've said previously this is no way disagrees with any of my stance put forth - In fact I'll be mentioning quantum physics a great deal because I think this is incredibly important.

"All things -- from Brahma the creator down to a single blade of grass -- are. . .simply appearances and not real." - Adi Shankara

If one wants to give an accurate description of the elementary particle. . .the only thing which can be written down as description is a probability function. But then one sees that not even the quality of being. . .belongs to what is described - Werner Heisenberg

Look at your body –
A Painted Puppet, a poor toy
Of Jointed parts ready to collapse,
A diseased and suffering thing
With a head full of false imaginings.
-the Dhammapada.

Just because we don't know where it is doesn't mean that it doesn't exist somewhere at a given moment in time.

yeah I agree with you - but it just will get smaller - till we are talking quirks and leptons - then it gets even smaller - idk we can talk string theory? M-Theory - whatevs - it all points towards a stream of consciousness be it things at the subatomic level or through entanglement.

Not to mention with all the parallel universes in the multiverse - I mean talk about insignificant - my friend through the eyes of the cosmos - that is you and I.

Whatevs. You kind of have to use two opposing arguments to get there. First, there is no meaning and second, that we need to look at ourselves in relationship to that lack of meaning.

However, if there is no meaning, then (woo hoo) I get to create my own: I'm the center of the universe!

If there is meaning, then I have significance in relationship to that meaning. Which is nifty.

In the mean time, just like the bonobos, I need to feed my kids. And that's pretty cool too.

It sounds paradoxical - I mean if you are taking the Bible seriously then you can certainly see through this though.

At the level of the cosmos - no meaning.

The average human - has no meaning, has not even contemplated meaning - they don't even think in terms of true 'self' - I want to shake them up and MAKE them think-which will largely be done through elaborate entertainment of my journey to the 'self' - coupled with philosophy on why I came to the conclusion I did after the fact. They simply assume because they have self-awareness they are entitled to meaning. - simpletons, nothing is wrong with being simple - it seems blissful to them.

Gifted person - experiences an existential crisis- comes to a similar conclusion as me - at the level of the cosmos no meaning - they will die, be forgotten, self awareness turns off. - Because their is no meaning they must select a worldview - I think in this day and age the only acceptable ones are nihilism, existentialism, postmodernism - and I will cover each one and how I coped with each one (and yeah existentialism is just a movement not a world-view ---sure I can accept nihilism, but the only way to cope with the void is to create meaning for my individual self).

Christianity will of course be at play a great deal due to my upbringing and the fact that I detest how it dumb down and dulls critical thinking in people. It is folly and foolish - I have great respect for Christians - the people - I even think the pastors and clergy are sincere - but they are all sincerely wrong -dead wrong. This side of life is the one and only shot of life you got - then the self-awareness turns off - so use the time to create the most beautiful thing I think a person can - a SELF.

Except the average person does have a sense of self. We are sentient creatures. We are born with it.

If you think that this is something that is owned by an elite, you've got a lot of learning to do about the world.

You might want to start with what we know about the other apes.

What do you mean 'If you think that this is something that is owned by an elite, you've got a lot of learning to do about the world?' - Sincerely have no idea what you mean.

'Except the average person does have a sense of self. We are sentient creatures. We are born with it.'

-well it is certainly developed, we have self-awareness at prob around age 2 as I said previously. And sure they have a sense of self because they have self-awareness - but they don't have a SELF - they don't have an actually identity or personality - without an identity I don't think you have ANY free will period. You have not thought through things to form thoughts prior to actions.

quick example of this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/11013780/Judgements-about-trustworthiness-are-made-in-the-first-second-of-meeting.html

-WE are biological puppets - we think we judge people and make the choice on if we will trust someone or not - because we have self-awareness however we DO NOT. I think this applies in many other area's as well. And the average person certainly does not have a developed identity - they are a creature of whim, impulse. They have not formed their own thoughts of virtues, morality - they believe the nonsense you mentioned previously that I slammed down of being 'born' with good and evil, or believing it was fruit from a tree God told Adam and Eve not to eat. No, the true individual, the free spirit, the person with an actual 'I' - he has formed his own virtue and morality and his actions line up with it so his body is in accord with his spirit - and he may not have total free will, but he has much more freedom then the primitive man.

:noway:

You might want to check out the work that's been done with Attitude/Behavior Consistency. You can make people do strange things when you approach our biological blind spots in a certain way, but people also tend to be really robust in their base personalities.

You can make somebody want something in the moment by framing it well. But three weeks later, they'll be back to where they were initially. It's really, really hard to get people to fundamentally change in any way. REALLY hard.

Also, recognize that a lot of the heuristics we use have made us extremely successful in the natural world and that, as a species, we're pretty good at abandoning them when needed. Yes, you can prove experimentally that they're there. But in the real world, there's a lot more going on.

Although, I think that the loan crisis partially played out the way it did because it was more-or-less designed to blind side us as a species. But we could have recognized it and done something about it on the macro-scale too.

Well let's stay clear of the loan crisis -economics is my first love so I don't want to get on the craziest of tangents or derail this thread because I make a very valid case.

And 'people tend to be really robust in their base personality' - the fact that they have a base personality - they can be put in a nice little box - a choice between 1 of 16 personality types speaks volumes about how non-unique and how little free will there is. You are letting the tail wag the dog. The fact the average person can be thrown in a little box for marketing to take place, and for psychologist to hit, for my companies executives to know how to manipulate us - that in and of itself tells me their is a lack of a true 'self'.


'You can make somebody want something in the moment by framing it well. But three weeks later, they'll be back to where they were initially. It's really, really hard to get people to fundamentally change in any way. REALLY hard.' -this is true, but believe me - when I enter the life of a person they feel my fingerprint on them FOREVER this is how I nail relationships with clients and people, women - as quickly and as in-depth as I want. The overexcitabilities I demonstrate provide me with an uncanny sense of awareness of the other person, my boss in sales loves this because he says I can 'play' people like Jimmy Page can 'play' the guitar - I of course as a drug addict used this to harness manipulation techniques that were otherworldly - 'Loki like' Of course now I use techniques to create influential factors in all meetings - and I jump into the sea of issues - mirroring for me comes more naturally then you could possibly imagine - Like a human Chameleon - I'm the guy who is at a publicly traded company selling to the CFO, and that night I'm shirtless walking through Kensington, perfectly safe - being in character looking for a relapsed buddy. I can connect to people - and I can do this because I sincerely care. I love people. I love their experiences, their take on reality, their attempt to make meaning for them-self. David Foster Wallace said when you go to someone ask them what is wrong and they will always make the case of 'How did you know?' - This is indeed true - everyone is suffering. Everyone has a sense of loneliness, and I have been blessed with a face and makeup where people just confide in me off of initial introductions - I of course feign a sense of vulnerability as well - but I'm personally blessed in this regard. So I agree for the average person it is incredibly hard to fundamentally change people - but I have done it repeatedly my entire life. Creating paradigm shifts in people gives me a joy that you couldn't imagine.

My husband is a sales guy too and every bit as much a chameleon. I can tell you this: you don't fundamentally change people. You get people to shift their behavior in the moment. And maybe many moments. But, over time, they're are going to drift back to who they essentially are. Who they were born as.

The 16 boxes are just that: boxes. Constructs. The real world is infinitely more complex (and less complex. Essentially we're all apes and driven by our ape senses. This narrows the field. But almost every one of us could imagine ourselves a jaguar.)

I disagree - experience and interactions change people.

Some really brief examples of this - torture - I am a different person having been tortured - if you have been tortured and I mean 'torture' torture - this changed my entire makeup. - looking back it was even healthy - very healthy - it aided a great deal in expediting the process of me becoming 'me'.

Even Influential people- When I was reprogramming myself getting out of substance abuse I had to latch on to people who I wanted to become like - to break away from myself- my former self. If you were to compare me in 6 months blocks through out my life you would see a drastic process of evolving of the 'self' - you are not born as anyone - you are in a state of non-being. You just are. Just because you have self-awareness does not give you an automatic identity despite the illusion of it.

'The 16 boxes are just that: boxes. Constructs. The real world is infinitely more complex (and less complex. Essentially we're all apes and driven by our ape senses. This narrows the field. But almost every one of us could imagine ourselves a jaguar.)'
-I see your point, but I disagree - if you could imagine yourself as your ideal self (which even that is a very difficult and tedious task)- start to shape it- think it all through, form your opinions- and line up your behavior with it - then you are your ideal. I'd say my ideal is as drastic from primitive form of man as man is from monkey. - I say that, but keep in mind I make no claim of being my ideal

---

YET.

And I'd still like you to define primitive man.

Also monkey.

Yes, torture is one of the few things that changes personality after adulthood. Chronic stress. Chronic starvation. Injury and illness can affect the personality, sometimes permanently. The list is pretty short. Because who YOU are is robust.

monkey - 'a small to medium-sized primate that typically has a long tail, most kinds of which live in trees in tropical countries.' Has no free will, is guided strictly by its will to live, reproduce, herd instinct, survival instinct, and selfish-gene.

primitive man - 'an adult human male.' Has no free will, is guided strictly by its will to live, reproduce, will to power, herd instinct, survival instinct, perhaps a will to pleasure, and selfish-gene, has a sense of self-awareness.'

MrTolerable

and what about eastern philosophy?

those who reject a clearly defined sense of self because thier introsepection moves them to interpret it as an illusion?

are they precluded from a meaningful life or being thought of as gifted?

Yeah- actually I think they are on to something very profound - the ego death.

^I have personally felt the effects of ego death from messing with substance abuse - hallucinogenics in the past - it is very unnerving -experiencing depersonalization.

I in a sense agree with their line of thinking - quantum physicist as has been mentioned in even this thread keep pointing towards the fact that we are in an illusion or simply in a consciousness.

Once computering power has advanced to the point where we can accurately simulate the big bang... then the simple fact that this is possible makes it infinetly more likely that we are accually living in a computer simulation... because there would be a simulation within that simulation, and so on and so forth, like a russan doll.

I mean, thats BS but its almost hard to work your way out of the logic when you keep thinking about. there are experiments that suggests that matter behaves differently when its being observed, which has been liked to that fact that what is not currently being displayed on a monitor in a computer simulation in some ways does not exist. It exists but not in the same form as precieved on the monitor, it exists only as information in the simulation when not displayed.

when you keep drilling down... there will be no 'smallest particle'. there will only be quantum states... just information that is interpreted by the one percieving... much like the a simulation

Yeah - you are referring to the double slit experiment regarding electrons or protons not letting us observe them - not to mention they are random as crap to begin with. I've said previously this is no way disagrees with any of my stance put forth - In fact I'll be mentioning quantum physics a great deal because I think this is incredibly important.

"All things -- from Brahma the creator down to a single blade of grass -- are. . .simply appearances and not real." - Adi Shankara

If one wants to give an accurate description of the elementary particle. . .the only thing which can be written down as description is a probability function. But then one sees that not even the quality of being. . .belongs to what is described - Werner Heisenberg

Look at your body –
A Painted Puppet, a poor toy
Of Jointed parts ready to collapse,
A diseased and suffering thing
With a head full of false imaginings.
-the Dhammapada.

Just because we don't know where it is doesn't mean that it doesn't exist somewhere at a given moment in time.

yeah I agree with you - but it just will get smaller - till we are talking quirks and leptons - then it gets even smaller - idk we can talk string theory? M-Theory - whatevs - it all points towards a stream of consciousness be it things at the subatomic level or through entanglement.

Not to mention with all the parallel universes in the multiverse - I mean talk about insignificant - my friend through the eyes of the cosmos - that is you and I.

Whatevs. You kind of have to use two opposing arguments to get there. First, there is no meaning and second, that we need to look at ourselves in relationship to that lack of meaning.

However, if there is no meaning, then (woo hoo) I get to create my own: I'm the center of the universe!

If there is meaning, then I have significance in relationship to that meaning. Which is nifty.

In the mean time, just like the bonobos, I need to feed my kids. And that's pretty cool too.

It sounds paradoxical - I mean if you are taking the Bible seriously then you can certainly see through this though.

At the level of the cosmos - no meaning.

The average human - has no meaning, has not even contemplated meaning - they don't even think in terms of true 'self' - I want to shake them up and MAKE them think-which will largely be done through elaborate entertainment of my journey to the 'self' - coupled with philosophy on why I came to the conclusion I did after the fact. They simply assume because they have self-awareness they are entitled to meaning. - simpletons, nothing is wrong with being simple - it seems blissful to them.

Gifted person - experiences an existential crisis- comes to a similar conclusion as me - at the level of the cosmos no meaning - they will die, be forgotten, self awareness turns off. - Because their is no meaning they must select a worldview - I think in this day and age the only acceptable ones are nihilism, existentialism, postmodernism - and I will cover each one and how I coped with each one (and yeah existentialism is just a movement not a world-view ---sure I can accept nihilism, but the only way to cope with the void is to create meaning for my individual self).

Christianity will of course be at play a great deal due to my upbringing and the fact that I detest how it dumb down and dulls critical thinking in people. It is folly and foolish - I have great respect for Christians - the people - I even think the pastors and clergy are sincere - but they are all sincerely wrong -dead wrong. This side of life is the one and only shot of life you got - then the self-awareness turns off - so use the time to create the most beautiful thing I think a person can - a SELF.

Except the average person does have a sense of self. We are sentient creatures. We are born with it.

If you think that this is something that is owned by an elite, you've got a lot of learning to do about the world.

You might want to start with what we know about the other apes.

What do you mean 'If you think that this is something that is owned by an elite, you've got a lot of learning to do about the world?' - Sincerely have no idea what you mean.

'Except the average person does have a sense of self. We are sentient creatures. We are born with it.'

-well it is certainly developed, we have self-awareness at prob around age 2 as I said previously. And sure they have a sense of self because they have self-awareness - but they don't have a SELF - they don't have an actually identity or personality - without an identity I don't think you have ANY free will period. You have not thought through things to form thoughts prior to actions.

quick example of this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/11013780/Judgements-about-trustworthiness-are-made-in-the-first-second-of-meeting.html

-WE are biological puppets - we think we judge people and make the choice on if we will trust someone or not - because we have self-awareness however we DO NOT. I think this applies in many other area's as well. And the average person certainly does not have a developed identity - they are a creature of whim, impulse. They have not formed their own thoughts of virtues, morality - they believe the nonsense you mentioned previously that I slammed down of being 'born' with good and evil, or believing it was fruit from a tree God told Adam and Eve not to eat. No, the true individual, the free spirit, the person with an actual 'I' - he has formed his own virtue and morality and his actions line up with it so his body is in accord with his spirit - and he may not have total free will, but he has much more freedom then the primitive man.

:noway:

You might want to check out the work that's been done with Attitude/Behavior Consistency. You can make people do strange things when you approach our biological blind spots in a certain way, but people also tend to be really robust in their base personalities.

You can make somebody want something in the moment by framing it well. But three weeks later, they'll be back to where they were initially. It's really, really hard to get people to fundamentally change in any way. REALLY hard.

Also, recognize that a lot of the heuristics we use have made us extremely successful in the natural world and that, as a species, we're pretty good at abandoning them when needed. Yes, you can prove experimentally that they're there. But in the real world, there's a lot more going on.

Although, I think that the loan crisis partially played out the way it did because it was more-or-less designed to blind side us as a species. But we could have recognized it and done something about it on the macro-scale too.

Well let's stay clear of the loan crisis -economics is my first love so I don't want to get on the craziest of tangents or derail this thread because I make a very valid case.

And 'people tend to be really robust in their base personality' - the fact that they have a base personality - they can be put in a nice little box - a choice between 1 of 16 personality types speaks volumes about how non-unique and how little free will there is. You are letting the tail wag the dog. The fact the average person can be thrown in a little box for marketing to take place, and for psychologist to hit, for my companies executives to know how to manipulate us - that in and of itself tells me their is a lack of a true 'self'.


'You can make somebody want something in the moment by framing it well. But three weeks later, they'll be back to where they were initially. It's really, really hard to get people to fundamentally change in any way. REALLY hard.' -this is true, but believe me - when I enter the life of a person they feel my fingerprint on them FOREVER this is how I nail relationships with clients and people, women - as quickly and as in-depth as I want. The overexcitabilities I demonstrate provide me with an uncanny sense of awareness of the other person, my boss in sales loves this because he says I can 'play' people like Jimmy Page can 'play' the guitar - I of course as a drug addict used this to harness manipulation techniques that were otherworldly - 'Loki like' Of course now I use techniques to create influential factors in all meetings - and I jump into the sea of issues - mirroring for me comes more naturally then you could possibly imagine - Like a human Chameleon - I'm the guy who is at a publicly traded company selling to the CFO, and that night I'm shirtless walking through Kensington, perfectly safe - being in character looking for a relapsed buddy. I can connect to people - and I can do this because I sincerely care. I love people. I love their experiences, their take on reality, their attempt to make meaning for them-self. David Foster Wallace said when you go to someone ask them what is wrong and they will always make the case of 'How did you know?' - This is indeed true - everyone is suffering. Everyone has a sense of loneliness, and I have been blessed with a face and makeup where people just confide in me off of initial introductions - I of course feign a sense of vulnerability as well - but I'm personally blessed in this regard. So I agree for the average person it is incredibly hard to fundamentally change people - but I have done it repeatedly my entire life. Creating paradigm shifts in people gives me a joy that you couldn't imagine.

My husband is a sales guy too and every bit as much a chameleon. I can tell you this: you don't fundamentally change people. You get people to shift their behavior in the moment. And maybe many moments. But, over time, they're are going to drift back to who they essentially are. Who they were born as.

The 16 boxes are just that: boxes. Constructs. The real world is infinitely more complex (and less complex. Essentially we're all apes and driven by our ape senses. This narrows the field. But almost every one of us could imagine ourselves a jaguar.)

I disagree - experience and interactions change people.

Some really brief examples of this - torture - I am a different person having been tortured - if you have been tortured and I mean 'torture' torture - this changed my entire makeup. - looking back it was even healthy - very healthy - it aided a great deal in expediting the process of me becoming 'me'.

Even Influential people- When I was reprogramming myself getting out of substance abuse I had to latch on to people who I wanted to become like - to break away from myself- my former self. If you were to compare me in 6 months blocks through out my life you would see a drastic process of evolving of the 'self' - you are not born as anyone - you are in a state of non-being. You just are. Just because you have self-awareness does not give you an automatic identity despite the illusion of it.

'The 16 boxes are just that: boxes. Constructs. The real world is infinitely more complex (and less complex. Essentially we're all apes and driven by our ape senses. This narrows the field. But almost every one of us could imagine ourselves a jaguar.)'
-I see your point, but I disagree - if you could imagine yourself as your ideal self (which even that is a very difficult and tedious task)- start to shape it- think it all through, form your opinions- and line up your behavior with it - then you are your ideal. I'd say my ideal is as drastic from primitive form of man as man is from monkey. - I say that, but keep in mind I make no claim of being my ideal

---

YET.

Yes, torture is one of the few things that changes personality after adulthood. Chronic stress. Chronic starvation. Injury and illness can affect the personality, sometimes permanently. The list is pretty short. Because who YOU are is robust.

-see I think this^ is amazing - personality is dynamic for the free-spirit, for the freeman, the ideal - a constant state of growth.

And no - there are tons of things that change your life - having a gun placed to my head a few times changed me, near death experiences such as the coma, learning - just learning and exploring new ideologies provides a paradigm shift that changes my entire worldview which changes my entire personality - and this has reoccurred in me multiple times jumping from Christianity - nihilism - nihilism/postmodernism - nihilism - nihilism/existentialism

If you were to ask who my hero is - and yes this is banal platitude, but powerful none-the-less - it is me in 5 years. - I'm constantly chasing after myself, and my ideal. The personality is in a process of development - unless you are STUCK in a primitive state.

likitisplit

and what about eastern philosophy?

those who reject a clearly defined sense of self because thier introsepection moves them to interpret it as an illusion?

are they precluded from a meaningful life or being thought of as gifted?

Yeah- actually I think they are on to something very profound - the ego death.

^I have personally felt the effects of ego death from messing with substance abuse - hallucinogenics in the past - it is very unnerving -experiencing depersonalization.

I in a sense agree with their line of thinking - quantum physicist as has been mentioned in even this thread keep pointing towards the fact that we are in an illusion or simply in a consciousness.

Once computering power has advanced to the point where we can accurately simulate the big bang... then the simple fact that this is possible makes it infinetly more likely that we are accually living in a computer simulation... because there would be a simulation within that simulation, and so on and so forth, like a russan doll.

I mean, thats BS but its almost hard to work your way out of the logic when you keep thinking about. there are experiments that suggests that matter behaves differently when its being observed, which has been liked to that fact that what is not currently being displayed on a monitor in a computer simulation in some ways does not exist. It exists but not in the same form as precieved on the monitor, it exists only as information in the simulation when not displayed.

when you keep drilling down... there will be no 'smallest particle'. there will only be quantum states... just information that is interpreted by the one percieving... much like the a simulation

Yeah - you are referring to the double slit experiment regarding electrons or protons not letting us observe them - not to mention they are random as crap to begin with. I've said previously this is no way disagrees with any of my stance put forth - In fact I'll be mentioning quantum physics a great deal because I think this is incredibly important.

"All things -- from Brahma the creator down to a single blade of grass -- are. . .simply appearances and not real." - Adi Shankara

If one wants to give an accurate description of the elementary particle. . .the only thing which can be written down as description is a probability function. But then one sees that not even the quality of being. . .belongs to what is described - Werner Heisenberg

Look at your body –
A Painted Puppet, a poor toy
Of Jointed parts ready to collapse,
A diseased and suffering thing
With a head full of false imaginings.
-the Dhammapada.

Just because we don't know where it is doesn't mean that it doesn't exist somewhere at a given moment in time.

yeah I agree with you - but it just will get smaller - till we are talking quirks and leptons - then it gets even smaller - idk we can talk string theory? M-Theory - whatevs - it all points towards a stream of consciousness be it things at the subatomic level or through entanglement.

Not to mention with all the parallel universes in the multiverse - I mean talk about insignificant - my friend through the eyes of the cosmos - that is you and I.

Whatevs. You kind of have to use two opposing arguments to get there. First, there is no meaning and second, that we need to look at ourselves in relationship to that lack of meaning.

However, if there is no meaning, then (woo hoo) I get to create my own: I'm the center of the universe!

If there is meaning, then I have significance in relationship to that meaning. Which is nifty.

In the mean time, just like the bonobos, I need to feed my kids. And that's pretty cool too.

It sounds paradoxical - I mean if you are taking the Bible seriously then you can certainly see through this though.

At the level of the cosmos - no meaning.

The average human - has no meaning, has not even contemplated meaning - they don't even think in terms of true 'self' - I want to shake them up and MAKE them think-which will largely be done through elaborate entertainment of my journey to the 'self' - coupled with philosophy on why I came to the conclusion I did after the fact. They simply assume because they have self-awareness they are entitled to meaning. - simpletons, nothing is wrong with being simple - it seems blissful to them.

Gifted person - experiences an existential crisis- comes to a similar conclusion as me - at the level of the cosmos no meaning - they will die, be forgotten, self awareness turns off. - Because their is no meaning they must select a worldview - I think in this day and age the only acceptable ones are nihilism, existentialism, postmodernism - and I will cover each one and how I coped with each one (and yeah existentialism is just a movement not a world-view ---sure I can accept nihilism, but the only way to cope with the void is to create meaning for my individual self).

Christianity will of course be at play a great deal due to my upbringing and the fact that I detest how it dumb down and dulls critical thinking in people. It is folly and foolish - I have great respect for Christians - the people - I even think the pastors and clergy are sincere - but they are all sincerely wrong -dead wrong. This side of life is the one and only shot of life you got - then the self-awareness turns off - so use the time to create the most beautiful thing I think a person can - a SELF.

Except the average person does have a sense of self. We are sentient creatures. We are born with it.

If you think that this is something that is owned by an elite, you've got a lot of learning to do about the world.

You might want to start with what we know about the other apes.

What do you mean 'If you think that this is something that is owned by an elite, you've got a lot of learning to do about the world?' - Sincerely have no idea what you mean.

'Except the average person does have a sense of self. We are sentient creatures. We are born with it.'

-well it is certainly developed, we have self-awareness at prob around age 2 as I said previously. And sure they have a sense of self because they have self-awareness - but they don't have a SELF - they don't have an actually identity or personality - without an identity I don't think you have ANY free will period. You have not thought through things to form thoughts prior to actions.

quick example of this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/11013780/Judgements-about-trustworthiness-are-made-in-the-first-second-of-meeting.html

-WE are biological puppets - we think we judge people and make the choice on if we will trust someone or not - because we have self-awareness however we DO NOT. I think this applies in many other area's as well. And the average person certainly does not have a developed identity - they are a creature of whim, impulse. They have not formed their own thoughts of virtues, morality - they believe the nonsense you mentioned previously that I slammed down of being 'born' with good and evil, or believing it was fruit from a tree God told Adam and Eve not to eat. No, the true individual, the free spirit, the person with an actual 'I' - he has formed his own virtue and morality and his actions line up with it so his body is in accord with his spirit - and he may not have total free will, but he has much more freedom then the primitive man.

:noway:

You might want to check out the work that's been done with Attitude/Behavior Consistency. You can make people do strange things when you approach our biological blind spots in a certain way, but people also tend to be really robust in their base personalities.

You can make somebody want something in the moment by framing it well. But three weeks later, they'll be back to where they were initially. It's really, really hard to get people to fundamentally change in any way. REALLY hard.

Also, recognize that a lot of the heuristics we use have made us extremely successful in the natural world and that, as a species, we're pretty good at abandoning them when needed. Yes, you can prove experimentally that they're there. But in the real world, there's a lot more going on.

Although, I think that the loan crisis partially played out the way it did because it was more-or-less designed to blind side us as a species. But we could have recognized it and done something about it on the macro-scale too.

Well let's stay clear of the loan crisis -economics is my first love so I don't want to get on the craziest of tangents or derail this thread because I make a very valid case.

And 'people tend to be really robust in their base personality' - the fact that they have a base personality - they can be put in a nice little box - a choice between 1 of 16 personality types speaks volumes about how non-unique and how little free will there is. You are letting the tail wag the dog. The fact the average person can be thrown in a little box for marketing to take place, and for psychologist to hit, for my companies executives to know how to manipulate us - that in and of itself tells me their is a lack of a true 'self'.


'You can make somebody want something in the moment by framing it well. But three weeks later, they'll be back to where they were initially. It's really, really hard to get people to fundamentally change in any way. REALLY hard.' -this is true, but believe me - when I enter the life of a person they feel my fingerprint on them FOREVER this is how I nail relationships with clients and people, women - as quickly and as in-depth as I want. The overexcitabilities I demonstrate provide me with an uncanny sense of awareness of the other person, my boss in sales loves this because he says I can 'play' people like Jimmy Page can 'play' the guitar - I of course as a drug addict used this to harness manipulation techniques that were otherworldly - 'Loki like' Of course now I use techniques to create influential factors in all meetings - and I jump into the sea of issues - mirroring for me comes more naturally then you could possibly imagine - Like a human Chameleon - I'm the guy who is at a publicly traded company selling to the CFO, and that night I'm shirtless walking through Kensington, perfectly safe - being in character looking for a relapsed buddy. I can connect to people - and I can do this because I sincerely care. I love people. I love their experiences, their take on reality, their attempt to make meaning for them-self. David Foster Wallace said when you go to someone ask them what is wrong and they will always make the case of 'How did you know?' - This is indeed true - everyone is suffering. Everyone has a sense of loneliness, and I have been blessed with a face and makeup where people just confide in me off of initial introductions - I of course feign a sense of vulnerability as well - but I'm personally blessed in this regard. So I agree for the average person it is incredibly hard to fundamentally change people - but I have done it repeatedly my entire life. Creating paradigm shifts in people gives me a joy that you couldn't imagine.

My husband is a sales guy too and every bit as much a chameleon. I can tell you this: you don't fundamentally change people. You get people to shift their behavior in the moment. And maybe many moments. But, over time, they're are going to drift back to who they essentially are. Who they were born as.

The 16 boxes are just that: boxes. Constructs. The real world is infinitely more complex (and less complex. Essentially we're all apes and driven by our ape senses. This narrows the field. But almost every one of us could imagine ourselves a jaguar.)

I disagree - experience and interactions change people.

Some really brief examples of this - torture - I am a different person having been tortured - if you have been tortured and I mean 'torture' torture - this changed my entire makeup. - looking back it was even healthy - very healthy - it aided a great deal in expediting the process of me becoming 'me'.

Even Influential people- When I was reprogramming myself getting out of substance abuse I had to latch on to people who I wanted to become like - to break away from myself- my former self. If you were to compare me in 6 months blocks through out my life you would see a drastic process of evolving of the 'self' - you are not born as anyone - you are in a state of non-being. You just are. Just because you have self-awareness does not give you an automatic identity despite the illusion of it.

'The 16 boxes are just that: boxes. Constructs. The real world is infinitely more complex (and less complex. Essentially we're all apes and driven by our ape senses. This narrows the field. But almost every one of us could imagine ourselves a jaguar.)'
-I see your point, but I disagree - if you could imagine yourself as your ideal self (which even that is a very difficult and tedious task)- start to shape it- think it all through, form your opinions- and line up your behavior with it - then you are your ideal. I'd say my ideal is as drastic from primitive form of man as man is from monkey. - I say that, but keep in mind I make no claim of being my ideal

---

YET.

And I'd still like you to define primitive man.

Also monkey.

Yes, torture is one of the few things that changes personality after adulthood. Chronic stress. Chronic starvation. Injury and illness can affect the personality, sometimes permanently. The list is pretty short. Because who YOU are is robust.

monkey - 'a small to medium-sized primate that typically has a long tail, most kinds of which live in trees in tropical countries.' Has no free will, is guided strictly by its will to live, reproduce, herd instinct, survival instinct, and selfish-gene.

primitive man - 'an adult human male.' Has no free will, is guided strictly by its will to live, reproduce, will to power, herd instinct, survival instinct, perhaps a will to pleasure, and selfish-gene, has a sense of self-awareness.'

Outside of prison populations, I don't know a lot of guys like that.

I'm not sure how you'd determine whether something has free will or not.

MrTolerable

And this is why you are depressed.

You have realized the earth is a speck in the universe, your city is a speck on the earth, you are a speck among millions in your city. Even the most important specks in this world - the kings and presidents, are largely forgotten in time in their own nation, and largely never known, let alone forgotten, in other nations.

So you have decided, in your intelligence, that the whole thing is meaningless. And so you are depressed and are crying out in the internet streets to have people understand their great folly and become as depressed and meaningless as you feel existence is.

Meh.

People in the Bible knew, more acutely than you, the brevity and forgettability of a human life. However, they were able to come out of despair because they knew that indeed, it does have meaning, even when they percieved the vanity of their lives. King David asked God:

"What is man, that you are mindful of him? and the son of man, that you visit him?

Sometimes great intelligence comes a skewed perspective: I think therefore it's real. Your philosophical viewpoints are meaningless pits of despair - they are powerless idols, unable to help in times of trouble.

I called out to God when I was carried out by a current at sea: God saved me. I was blind at 14. God comforted me, and now I see without glasses. I had gallbladder disease and healed by a miracle. These are all REAL things, not empty philosophies that have no power to save.

And this is why I am filled with joy and gratitude daily, because though I understand that I am a speck among specks living in a speck on a rotating speck, that there is paradox, that even the very hairs on my head have been counted by the creator of the universe.

And regarding insomnia and overexitability: you need to take a few steps back off of intellectually stimulating material, and set a time threshold, that once passed, you take an over-the-counter sleep aid. You are essentially gorging on brain junk food, and your brain has to process all that info before it rests. Overheating your "cpu" can lead to detrimental effects, as you are currently experiencing. It's not about dumbing yourself down - it's about understanding your own physiology and caring enough about your health to stop gorging.

And if you really want to be happy? Start thanking God every day for your blessings, and name them. Game changer.

I don't believe in any of this and I am not unhappy. God isn't necessary for happiness. He's depressed because he thinks he's smarter than everyone else and super special and we're all just lemmings headed off the cliff and don't care. He's depressed because he thinks he knows more than other people, which he doesn't. He appears to have very little genuine or useful life experiences.

I'm not an atheist, but I definitely do not believe in the Bible-centered religions (Christianity, Islam, Judaism). What I do believe is that there is order in the universe and balance and that in the end, whether we're forgotten by mankind or remembered, no matter what we do in our lives, if what we do matters to ourselves and we enjoyed our time here, it's OK if we're just a speck of dust to someone on the other side of the street or the other side of the planet. My purpose is not to make everyone know and love me. My purpose is to be happy in my life while at least trying not to harm other people (and in my case, animals).

:noway:

Responding to the personal attack isn't even worth my time. Once again I'll say *I am not depressed* - my whole idea of the importance of existentialism is to help nihilist to avoid existential depression. smh I believe my thoughts are well thought-out.

'He appears to have very little genuine or useful life experiences.' - lmao - if. you. only. knew.

rml_16

And this is why you are depressed.

You have realized the earth is a speck in the universe, your city is a speck on the earth, you are a speck among millions in your city. Even the most important specks in this world - the kings and presidents, are largely forgotten in time in their own nation, and largely never known, let alone forgotten, in other nations.

So you have decided, in your intelligence, that the whole thing is meaningless. And so you are depressed and are crying out in the internet streets to have people understand their great folly and become as depressed and meaningless as you feel existence is.

Meh.

People in the Bible knew, more acutely than you, the brevity and forgettability of a human life. However, they were able to come out of despair because they knew that indeed, it does have meaning, even when they percieved the vanity of their lives. King David asked God:

"What is man, that you are mindful of him? and the son of man, that you visit him?

Sometimes great intelligence comes a skewed perspective: I think therefore it's real. Your philosophical viewpoints are meaningless pits of despair - they are powerless idols, unable to help in times of trouble.

I called out to God when I was carried out by a current at sea: God saved me. I was blind at 14. God comforted me, and now I see without glasses. I had gallbladder disease and healed by a miracle. These are all REAL things, not empty philosophies that have no power to save.

And this is why I am filled with joy and gratitude daily, because though I understand that I am a speck among specks living in a speck on a rotating speck, that there is paradox, that even the very hairs on my head have been counted by the creator of the universe.

And regarding insomnia and overexitability: you need to take a few steps back off of intellectually stimulating material, and set a time threshold, that once passed, you take an over-the-counter sleep aid. You are essentially gorging on brain junk food, and your brain has to process all that info before it rests. Overheating your "cpu" can lead to detrimental effects, as you are currently experiencing. It's not about dumbing yourself down - it's about understanding your own physiology and caring enough about your health to stop gorging.

And if you really want to be happy? Start thanking God every day for your blessings, and name them. Game changer.

I don't believe in any of this and I am not unhappy. God isn't necessary for happiness. He's depressed because he thinks he's smarter than everyone else and super special and we're all just lemmings headed off the cliff and don't care. He's depressed because he thinks he knows more than other people, which he doesn't. He appears to have very little genuine or useful life experiences.

I'm not an atheist, but I definitely do not believe in the Bible-centered religions (Christianity, Islam, Judaism). What I do believe is that there is order in the universe and balance and that in the end, whether we're forgotten by mankind or remembered, no matter what we do in our lives, if what we do matters to ourselves and we enjoyed our time here, it's OK if we're just a speck of dust to someone on the other side of the street or the other side of the planet. My purpose is not to make everyone know and love me. My purpose is to be happy in my life while at least trying not to harm other people (and in my case, animals).

:noway:

Responding to the personal attack isn't even worth my time. Once again I'll say *I am not depressed* - my whole idea of the importance of existentialism is to help nihilist to avoid existential depression. smh I believe my thoughts are well thought-out.

'He appears to have very little genuine or useful life experiences.' - lmao - if. you. only. knew.

Your assumptions about other people bear that out. Just sayin'.

MrTolerable

and what about eastern philosophy?

those who reject a clearly defined sense of self because thier introsepection moves them to interpret it as an illusion?

are they precluded from a meaningful life or being thought of as gifted?

Yeah- actually I think they are on to something very profound - the ego death.

^I have personally felt the effects of ego death from messing with substance abuse - hallucinogenics in the past - it is very unnerving -experiencing depersonalization.

I in a sense agree with their line of thinking - quantum physicist as has been mentioned in even this thread keep pointing towards the fact that we are in an illusion or simply in a consciousness.

Once computering power has advanced to the point where we can accurately simulate the big bang... then the simple fact that this is possible makes it infinetly more likely that we are accually living in a computer simulation... because there would be a simulation within that simulation, and so on and so forth, like a russan doll.

I mean, thats BS but its almost hard to work your way out of the logic when you keep thinking about. there are experiments that suggests that matter behaves differently when its being observed, which has been liked to that fact that what is not currently being displayed on a monitor in a computer simulation in some ways does not exist. It exists but not in the same form as precieved on the monitor, it exists only as information in the simulation when not displayed.

when you keep drilling down... there will be no 'smallest particle'. there will only be quantum states... just information that is interpreted by the one percieving... much like the a simulation

Yeah - you are referring to the double slit experiment regarding electrons or protons not letting us observe them - not to mention they are random as crap to begin with. I've said previously this is no way disagrees with any of my stance put forth - In fact I'll be mentioning quantum physics a great deal because I think this is incredibly important.

"All things -- from Brahma the creator down to a single blade of grass -- are. . .simply appearances and not real." - Adi Shankara

If one wants to give an accurate description of the elementary particle. . .the only thing which can be written down as description is a probability function. But then one sees that not even the quality of being. . .belongs to what is described - Werner Heisenberg

Look at your body –
A Painted Puppet, a poor toy
Of Jointed parts ready to collapse,
A diseased and suffering thing
With a head full of false imaginings.
-the Dhammapada.

Just because we don't know where it is doesn't mean that it doesn't exist somewhere at a given moment in time.

yeah I agree with you - but it just will get smaller - till we are talking quirks and leptons - then it gets even smaller - idk we can talk string theory? M-Theory - whatevs - it all points towards a stream of consciousness be it things at the subatomic level or through entanglement.

Not to mention with all the parallel universes in the multiverse - I mean talk about insignificant - my friend through the eyes of the cosmos - that is you and I.

Whatevs. You kind of have to use two opposing arguments to get there. First, there is no meaning and second, that we need to look at ourselves in relationship to that lack of meaning.

However, if there is no meaning, then (woo hoo) I get to create my own: I'm the center of the universe!

If there is meaning, then I have significance in relationship to that meaning. Which is nifty.

In the mean time, just like the bonobos, I need to feed my kids. And that's pretty cool too.

It sounds paradoxical - I mean if you are taking the Bible seriously then you can certainly see through this though.

At the level of the cosmos - no meaning.

The average human - has no meaning, has not even contemplated meaning - they don't even think in terms of true 'self' - I want to shake them up and MAKE them think-which will largely be done through elaborate entertainment of my journey to the 'self' - coupled with philosophy on why I came to the conclusion I did after the fact. They simply assume because they have self-awareness they are entitled to meaning. - simpletons, nothing is wrong with being simple - it seems blissful to them.

Gifted person - experiences an existential crisis- comes to a similar conclusion as me - at the level of the cosmos no meaning - they will die, be forgotten, self awareness turns off. - Because their is no meaning they must select a worldview - I think in this day and age the only acceptable ones are nihilism, existentialism, postmodernism - and I will cover each one and how I coped with each one (and yeah existentialism is just a movement not a world-view ---sure I can accept nihilism, but the only way to cope with the void is to create meaning for my individual self).

Christianity will of course be at play a great deal due to my upbringing and the fact that I detest how it dumb down and dulls critical thinking in people. It is folly and foolish - I have great respect for Christians - the people - I even think the pastors and clergy are sincere - but they are all sincerely wrong -dead wrong. This side of life is the one and only shot of life you got - then the self-awareness turns off - so use the time to create the most beautiful thing I think a person can - a SELF.

Except the average person does have a sense of self. We are sentient creatures. We are born with it.

If you think that this is something that is owned by an elite, you've got a lot of learning to do about the world.

You might want to start with what we know about the other apes.

What do you mean 'If you think that this is something that is owned by an elite, you've got a lot of learning to do about the world?' - Sincerely have no idea what you mean.

'Except the average person does have a sense of self. We are sentient creatures. We are born with it.'

-well it is certainly developed, we have self-awareness at prob around age 2 as I said previously. And sure they have a sense of self because they have self-awareness - but they don't have a SELF - they don't have an actually identity or personality - without an identity I don't think you have ANY free will period. You have not thought through things to form thoughts prior to actions.

quick example of this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/11013780/Judgements-about-trustworthiness-are-made-in-the-first-second-of-meeting.html

-WE are biological puppets - we think we judge people and make the choice on if we will trust someone or not - because we have self-awareness however we DO NOT. I think this applies in many other area's as well. And the average person certainly does not have a developed identity - they are a creature of whim, impulse. They have not formed their own thoughts of virtues, morality - they believe the nonsense you mentioned previously that I slammed down of being 'born' with good and evil, or believing it was fruit from a tree God told Adam and Eve not to eat. No, the true individual, the free spirit, the person with an actual 'I' - he has formed his own virtue and morality and his actions line up with it so his body is in accord with his spirit - and he may not have total free will, but he has much more freedom then the primitive man.

:noway:

You might want to check out the work that's been done with Attitude/Behavior Consistency. You can make people do strange things when you approach our biological blind spots in a certain way, but people also tend to be really robust in their base personalities.

You can make somebody want something in the moment by framing it well. But three weeks later, they'll be back to where they were initially. It's really, really hard to get people to fundamentally change in any way. REALLY hard.

Also, recognize that a lot of the heuristics we use have made us extremely successful in the natural world and that, as a species, we're pretty good at abandoning them when needed. Yes, you can prove experimentally that they're there. But in the real world, there's a lot more going on.

Although, I think that the loan crisis partially played out the way it did because it was more-or-less designed to blind side us as a species. But we could have recognized it and done something about it on the macro-scale too.

Well let's stay clear of the loan crisis -economics is my first love so I don't want to get on the craziest of tangents or derail this thread because I make a very valid case.

And 'people tend to be really robust in their base personality' - the fact that they have a base personality - they can be put in a nice little box - a choice between 1 of 16 personality types speaks volumes about how non-unique and how little free will there is. You are letting the tail wag the dog. The fact the average person can be thrown in a little box for marketing to take place, and for psychologist to hit, for my companies executives to know how to manipulate us - that in and of itself tells me their is a lack of a true 'self'.


'You can make somebody want something in the moment by framing it well. But three weeks later, they'll be back to where they were initially. It's really, really hard to get people to fundamentally change in any way. REALLY hard.' -this is true, but believe me - when I enter the life of a person they feel my fingerprint on them FOREVER this is how I nail relationships with clients and people, women - as quickly and as in-depth as I want. The overexcitabilities I demonstrate provide me with an uncanny sense of awareness of the other person, my boss in sales loves this because he says I can 'play' people like Jimmy Page can 'play' the guitar - I of course as a drug addict used this to harness manipulation techniques that were otherworldly - 'Loki like' Of course now I use techniques to create influential factors in all meetings - and I jump into the sea of issues - mirroring for me comes more naturally then you could possibly imagine - Like a human Chameleon - I'm the guy who is at a publicly traded company selling to the CFO, and that night I'm shirtless walking through Kensington, perfectly safe - being in character looking for a relapsed buddy. I can connect to people - and I can do this because I sincerely care. I love people. I love their experiences, their take on reality, their attempt to make meaning for them-self. David Foster Wallace said when you go to someone ask them what is wrong and they will always make the case of 'How did you know?' - This is indeed true - everyone is suffering. Everyone has a sense of loneliness, and I have been blessed with a face and makeup where people just confide in me off of initial introductions - I of course feign a sense of vulnerability as well - but I'm personally blessed in this regard. So I agree for the average person it is incredibly hard to fundamentally change people - but I have done it repeatedly my entire life. Creating paradigm shifts in people gives me a joy that you couldn't imagine.

My husband is a sales guy too and every bit as much a chameleon. I can tell you this: you don't fundamentally change people. You get people to shift their behavior in the moment. And maybe many moments. But, over time, they're are going to drift back to who they essentially are. Who they were born as.

The 16 boxes are just that: boxes. Constructs. The real world is infinitely more complex (and less complex. Essentially we're all apes and driven by our ape senses. This narrows the field. But almost every one of us could imagine ourselves a jaguar.)

I disagree - experience and interactions change people.

Some really brief examples of this - torture - I am a different person having been tortured - if you have been tortured and I mean 'torture' torture - this changed my entire makeup. - looking back it was even healthy - very healthy - it aided a great deal in expediting the process of me becoming 'me'.

Even Influential people- When I was reprogramming myself getting out of substance abuse I had to latch on to people who I wanted to become like - to break away from myself- my former self. If you were to compare me in 6 months blocks through out my life you would see a drastic process of evolving of the 'self' - you are not born as anyone - you are in a state of non-being. You just are. Just because you have self-awareness does not give you an automatic identity despite the illusion of it.

'The 16 boxes are just that: boxes. Constructs. The real world is infinitely more complex (and less complex. Essentially we're all apes and driven by our ape senses. This narrows the field. But almost every one of us could imagine ourselves a jaguar.)'
-I see your point, but I disagree - if you could imagine yourself as your ideal self (which even that is a very difficult and tedious task)- start to shape it- think it all through, form your opinions- and line up your behavior with it - then you are your ideal. I'd say my ideal is as drastic from primitive form of man as man is from monkey. - I say that, but keep in mind I make no claim of being my ideal

---

YET.

And I'd still like you to define primitive man.

Also monkey.

Yes, torture is one of the few things that changes personality after adulthood. Chronic stress. Chronic starvation. Injury and illness can affect the personality, sometimes permanently. The list is pretty short. Because who YOU are is robust.

monkey - 'a small to medium-sized primate that typically has a long tail, most kinds of which live in trees in tropical countries.' Has no free will, is guided strictly by its will to live, reproduce, herd instinct, survival instinct, and selfish-gene.

primitive man - 'an adult human male.' Has no free will, is guided strictly by its will to live, reproduce, will to power, herd instinct, survival instinct, perhaps a will to pleasure, and selfish-gene, has a sense of self-awareness.'

Outside of prison populations, I don't know a lot of guys like that.

I'm not sure how you'd determine whether something has free will or not.

Check out Aristotle's points on determinism! Check out Dawkins points concerning the selfish gene. Check out Liggoti's input on determinism.

Even Einstein believed and understood determinism for FAQS sake.

Einstein/Abraham Lincoln tons and tons and tons of thinkers and intellectuals did and do not believe in any free will. I can't belabor this point because you don't want to know.

'I'm not sure how you'd determine whether something has free will or not' - I don't have to determine anything the case has been made long ago!

MrTolerable

And this is why you are depressed.

You have realized the earth is a speck in the universe, your city is a speck on the earth, you are a speck among millions in your city. Even the most important specks in this world - the kings and presidents, are largely forgotten in time in their own nation, and largely never known, let alone forgotten, in other nations.

So you have decided, in your intelligence, that the whole thing is meaningless. And so you are depressed and are crying out in the internet streets to have people understand their great folly and become as depressed and meaningless as you feel existence is.

Meh.

People in the Bible knew, more acutely than you, the brevity and forgettability of a human life. However, they were able to come out of despair because they knew that indeed, it does have meaning, even when they percieved the vanity of their lives. King David asked God:

"What is man, that you are mindful of him? and the son of man, that you visit him?

Sometimes great intelligence comes a skewed perspective: I think therefore it's real. Your philosophical viewpoints are meaningless pits of despair - they are powerless idols, unable to help in times of trouble.

I called out to God when I was carried out by a current at sea: God saved me. I was blind at 14. God comforted me, and now I see without glasses. I had gallbladder disease and healed by a miracle. These are all REAL things, not empty philosophies that have no power to save.

And this is why I am filled with joy and gratitude daily, because though I understand that I am a speck among specks living in a speck on a rotating speck, that there is paradox, that even the very hairs on my head have been counted by the creator of the universe.

And regarding insomnia and overexitability: you need to take a few steps back off of intellectually stimulating material, and set a time threshold, that once passed, you take an over-the-counter sleep aid. You are essentially gorging on brain junk food, and your brain has to process all that info before it rests. Overheating your "cpu" can lead to detrimental effects, as you are currently experiencing. It's not about dumbing yourself down - it's about understanding your own physiology and caring enough about your health to stop gorging.

And if you really want to be happy? Start thanking God every day for your blessings, and name them. Game changer.

I don't believe in any of this and I am not unhappy. God isn't necessary for happiness. He's depressed because he thinks he's smarter than everyone else and super special and we're all just lemmings headed off the cliff and don't care. He's depressed because he thinks he knows more than other people, which he doesn't. He appears to have very little genuine or useful life experiences.

I'm not an atheist, but I definitely do not believe in the Bible-centered religions (Christianity, Islam, Judaism). What I do believe is that there is order in the universe and balance and that in the end, whether we're forgotten by mankind or remembered, no matter what we do in our lives, if what we do matters to ourselves and we enjoyed our time here, it's OK if we're just a speck of dust to someone on the other side of the street or the other side of the planet. My purpose is not to make everyone know and love me. My purpose is to be happy in my life while at least trying not to harm other people (and in my case, animals).

:noway:

Responding to the personal attack isn't even worth my time. Once again I'll say *I am not depressed* - my whole idea of the importance of existentialism is to help nihilist to avoid existential depression. smh I believe my thoughts are well thought-out.

'He appears to have very little genuine or useful life experiences.' - lmao - if. you. only. knew.

Your assumptions about other people bear that out. Just sayin'.

What assumption? If you provide me an example I can observe myself and try to see your point.

MrTolerable

Would they care?

Where does this desperate need to be classified as "gifted" come from?

i would imagine they'd find any such arguments/theories pretty pointless. just introducing another point of view into the 'discussion'.

ie, i'm feeding the bears

It's a good point. It does underline the question - imagine that we'd successfully defined "gifted" in this context - what does the label do for the "gifted" person? What does it do for me?

i'm not sure i really follow your question, but i would basically say its a self serving title. which goes back to what i was saying about psychology being like english class, if you can make a decent arguement, then you 'theory' is sound.

one could probably focus on any number of personality quirks, or some other aspect of human life, and come up with a rationale why it makes them special or gifted. even amoungst those prone to critical evaluation, some will evaluate the ideas for what they are and some will support it simply because they see themselves in it.

lol your understanding of this is respectfully so far off tilt that it honestly brought me to laughter.

'why it makes them special or gifted' - no one is special - no one is significant - nothing, not even the cosmos is special - it just is. The average person having a sense of self-awareness (not an identity) feels entitled towards a sense of purpose and that they are special - they are not - they just are, and they will die and will be forgotten.

My point largely with existentialism is that you can create purpose in a meaningless world by taking on the role of crafting yourself - creating your ideal. Then when your created virtues and ideal's line up with your actions you begin to feel inner peace and far less turmoil. You have to create the meaning for yourself. Carl Sagan was such a good example of this and said it very elegantly.

We are in a void. We are meaningless. However we have self-awareness - an overly evolved self-awareness. We are as insignificant as all other biological animals and we will die just like them, but we know we will die unlike them. To cope people develop elaborate junk to stuff their time with - such as Christianity, and in a sense even my ideas on existentialism and the importance of personality development.

Being gifted does not mean you are special - you are just gifted - still entirely meaningless we are just more aware of the void, and we are more aware of our 'self'. My point is largely that their is not a great deal to life, you can live it any way you want, morality, ethics - all constructs. However, finding peace and happiness to me seems worthwhile in the worthlessness - so to find that peace and happiness you need to create your ideal you and live up to your ideal.

How, in the natural world, can anything EVER be "overly" evolved? What other feature would you apply this to?

Also, and I've said this before, human morality appears to be as rooted in our genetic map as the structure of our teeth. And, if you are going to argue that our teeth are mere constructs, I'm going to get really, really bored very quickly.

'The tragedy of a species becoming unfit for life by overevolving one ability is not confined to humankind. Thus it is thought, for instance, that certain deer in paleontological times succumbed as they acquired overly-heavy horns. The mutations must be considered blind, they work, are thrown forth, without any contact of interest with their environment.

In depressive states, the mind may be seen in the image of such an antler, in all its fantastic splendour pinning its bearer to the ground.' - Peter Wessel Zapffe in 'The Last Messiah'
-yeah I won't say our teeth are mere constructs - but do you have any proof that morality is 'rooted in our genetic map' - because it is not and no one could possibly believe that. Frankly it is a preposterous claim. Mainstream scientist say self-awareness/consciousness does not even occur in humans till about 2 years old - the idea that we could be BORN with morality and virtues would mean that there would be a foundation of ethics that apply to all, and of course there are not. We are biological puppets, many moving off of simply impulse, whim, and the selfish gene.

Still would like to here your argument against this point I made ^

MrTolerable

Richard Dawkins makes the point of how we overly evolved the brain by making it grow so rapidly (compared to evolution in other areas) due to the point I brought up previously - sexual selection - in humans the brain is and has been the peacocks tail.

-in regards to the enabling of our self-awareness