"Clean" vs. "unclean" eating studies?

EvgeniZyntx

Let me agree and be contrarian to my contrarian attitude.

I live in France and buying cheese is an art - "cheese product" doesn't cross my lips. But it is more related to taste, provenance and seller. I as my fromagier to make a recommendation based on a relationship we've built - I let him know what I didn't like, etc... It isn't about the processing - it's about taste. Cheese is processed, end of story. I like a lot of unpasteurized blue type and goat and some of the stinkier stuff and my daughters like the northern cheese (kids....).

But my cheese isn't clean! It's full of live cultures and mold and even flies (ah, I love tome cheese) and it's healthy. It's about taste. And taste dictates freshness and local produce and made to limited quantities not focused on volume, margin and price point.

Focus on food quality - not cleanliness or processing.

Now back to regularly scheduled butthead Evgeni, because even alimentary "quality" has all sorts of issues.

I mentioned in an earlier post (much earlier) in this thread that I do really love the European slow food movement. I was very impressed when I went to Europe with how dedicated everyone is to knowing what they are eating. Many restaurants have calories listed on the menu, its common to shop more frequently and buy smaller quantities of food at a time (maybe shopping just for the evening meal at a farmers market in the morning) and if you want to know where your food came from and who made it you can. Restaurants serve reasonable size portions that don't encourage overeating etc. Just a much healthier attitude overall I'd say.

But this also gets back to the problem I also mentioned earlier of why so many low income people in the United States are severely obese. They don't have the option to visit their local bakery or cheese shop to hand pick the foods they put in their mouths. If they do happen to have a place like this nearby the prices are double or triple what you'd pay somewhere else. (Whole Foods or Trader Joes anyone?) Not everyone has the the chance to meet the person who made their cheese or talk to them about how they made it. Many Americans are limited by their income (and the way life is here) to purchasing mass made products which they know little about sold through large retail chains and fast food restaurants.

I'm happy more people want to know what is in their food. Maybe one day we'll be able to have a healthier system... there's certainly a growing demand for it.

I think I see what you mean - except we don't call it slow food. We call it food.

When I am in France I have access to one of Europe's largest open air markets two-three times a week - a block away. And it's true that overall French (and German's to a lesser extent) have access to small shops for butchers, bakeries, etc... that are less present in the US. However, the cost of food isn't lower in Europe.
I've lived in the US and frankly the argument that quality food is somehow more cheaply available here is false. It's also largely incorrect to assume that processed produce is what makes the poor in America obese. It isn't some magical element of processing - it's cheap flavorful calories. Food has never been more readily available as a cheap convenience. Food is very inexpensive in America.

If I remember correctly, Americans spend a lot less on food than Europeans both in terms of GDP and absolute per capita.

I really appreciate hearing your thoughts on this.

We definitely have cheap food here. But its not quality food. Its cheap, flavorful, high in calories and low in nutritional value. Low income families can eat off the dollar menu at McDonalds and get a large volume of food very cheaply. Buying fresh fruits and veggies from a local market is much more expensive. I wonder though if we shopped for quality ingredients of the same kind (locally made specialty foods), if they wouldn't be similar in price in both countries? I'm not sure. Perhaps it is that Europeans place a different value on the quality of their food? In your opinion is that the case?

I remember spending about 6 euros for a picnic lunch in Paris and maybe 25 euros for a very nice dinner at a restaurant. It felt similar to what I would have paid in the U.S. equivalent for similar quality food. But that was several years ago and perhaps things have changed.

I really appreciate hearing your perspective.

Well - let's see what we can find:
It seems that for products like beef and chicken - per pound it's about 1/2 to 1/6th the price in the US. Lettuce and pasta, about the same potatoes are twice as expensive in France. White rice ... 20% more expensive in Germany.
But that's just one reference and I'm not even sure it's indexed on cost of living.

(http://www.dailyfinance.com/photos/food-price-comparison-around-the-world/?photo=2#!slide=988849)

Even within Europe I've found that we have a large difference in food attitudes and focus - a lot of it might be due to shopping attitudes - you mentioned we shop more often. It's true. Bigger fridges are called American here. We shop 2-3 times a week for small amounts (it isn't unusual to see shoppers go to shops on bikes - much less seen in the US).

We joke that the French only talk about a prior meal they've had whenever they are eating. There is some truth in that. And having Americans over for a meal - we tend to warn not to take seconds on the early dishes because we tend to serve a starter, main, salad, cheese, dessert... All anecdotal but varying attitudes do exist. Both geography and urban design means Europeans tend to use cars less - that certainly must have an influence on activity levels, etc... Obesity reasons are complex.

As to the cost of meals - I recently spent $40 for two including wine for a nice meal in Berlin - the same meal in Frankfurt or Paris would have been 2-3 times that.

Great information. Thank you for sharing.

I suppose that's why Americans have developed the term "slow food" for the European style then. I do remember dinner would often take much longer and was very relaxed.It was lovely to go for a meal in the evening and have it last several hours with smaller courses. It felt much nicer than the stressful rush at restaurants here where you eat a big portion of one or two things quickly.

Physical activity can definitely be a contributing factor. I'm fortunate to live in an area where I can walk to get most of the things I need but that is pretty uncommon here.

I spent some time in Europe this past summer, in Italy for a month while my husband was teaching, and then in Switzerland and Germany for work. I definitely noticed the difference in the pace of meals at restaurants, and commented about it with my German colleagues when I was with them. They said that in Europe, the meal is at the diner's pace. The diner dictates when they want to order food, whether they want to order more food, and when the bill should be presented. Whereas when they have visited the US, they have observed that they feel almost rushed out of a restaurant by a server, hounding them with questions like, Are you ready to order? Would you like dessert? Here is your check! We speculated that some of that may also be related to the fact that American servers depend primarily on tips, where tipping is much less prevalent in Europe. It behooves American servers to turn their tables faster, increasing their potential for tips.

This is generally true but we also have as many (if not more in major cities) convenience, non chain restaurants basically living off of foot traffic. Bad and cheap food. (By bad, I mean in taste and cheap ingredients...) And tourism is a non-negligible influence to restaurant vitality in most major European cities and basically all of France. Still, a lot of restaurant food is just mediocre fare.

But yes, almost never ever asked if you want the check. Strong offense.

EvgeniZyntx

I guess before you do a study like that you would have to have a clear definition if what "clean" means and what "processed" means. I just try to eat what unlike and get some protein in there. I enjoy vegetables but don't eat nearly enough of them. I could eat potatoes, rice and quinoa all day but i think that would be unhealthy because is be lacking something (but would I be eating clean?). Funny thing is, people often comment on how healthy my diet is. I know it could be much better.

I do believe that WOULD be clean. :laugh: Especially if you wash them!

I guess this topic really concerns me because I see so very much rather astonishing misinformation touted under the catchphrase "clean."

For example, on this very site, I saw someone post that eating clean was more important than working out, that the effort it took to eat clean was far less lazy than merely lifting things.

On another site I read that one could eat all the halva they wanted (a confection made from honey and sesame tahini) because it was clean. You could eat the entire batch and never gain weight.

I have read that it is impossible to get fat on clean food.

It boggles the mind that anyone might actually believe any of these things, but they do. *sigh*

I love Halva - but mine is certainly not clean. I buy it by the little tub full in a German supermarket. And it doesn't last long.:blushing:
Maybe I'm already dead.

SanteMulberry

I'm sorry, I feel that we're failing to communicate clearly somehow, because it appears that you're suggesting that obesity is independent of poor food choices. Admittedly there are some small number of contributing factors regarding medical conditions or medication which might also contribute in some cases, but for the most part obesity is the result of choosing to eat too much food -- a poor choice. Does that clear up the confusion?

Also, eating less nutritious foods does not cause diabetes. A combination of several factors, including obesity, is what causes it.

Obesity does not cause diabetes. The same years of bad food choices and lack of exercise cause both obesity and Type II diabetes. There are people who have Type II that are only slightly overweight or even of normal weight (my brother was one of those). And there are many obese people who have no sign of diabetes. Even only about 60% of MORBIDLY obese folk are or are candidates for Type II. Many diabetes researchers refer to "diabesity" now--not because one causes the other but they are both caused by the same thing--years of excessively high blood glucose and the metabolic havoc that it wreaks.

SnuggleSmacks

I'm sorry, I feel that we're failing to communicate clearly somehow, because it appears that you're suggesting that obesity is independent of poor food choices. Admittedly there are some small number of contributing factors regarding medical conditions or medication which might also contribute in some cases, but for the most part obesity is the result of choosing to eat too much food -- a poor choice. Does that clear up the confusion?

Also, eating less nutritious foods does not cause diabetes. A combination of several factors, including obesity, is what causes it.

Obesity does not cause diabetes. The same years of bad food choices and lack of exercise cause both obesity and Type II diabetes. There are people who have Type II that are only slightly overweight or even of normal weight (my brother was one of those). And there are many obese people who have no sign of diabetes. Even only about 60% of MORBIDLY obese folk are or are candidates for Type II. Many diabetes researchers refer to "diabesity" now--not because one causes the other but they are both caused by the same thing--years of excessively high blood glucose and the metabolic havoc that it wreaks.

I think she was simply saying that obesity is among the factors that can contribute to diabetes, not that it is required.

snowflake954

I spent some time in Europe this past summer, in Italy for a month while my husband was teaching, and then in Switzerland and Germany for work. I definitely noticed the difference in the pace of meals at restaurants, and commented about it with my German colleagues when I was with them. They said that in Europe, the meal is at the diner's pace. The diner dictates when they want to order food, whether they want to order more food, and when the bill should be presented. Whereas when they have visited the US, they have observed that they feel almost rushed out of a restaurant by a server, hounding them with questions like, Are you ready to order? Would you like dessert? Here is your check! We speculated that some of that may also be related to the fact that American servers depend primarily on tips, where tipping is much less prevalent in Europe. It behooves American servers to turn their tables faster, increasing their potential for tips.

I think a lot of this is cultural difference and the fact that for many Americans fast service is a positive, because they are eating before other activities, the meal not being the centerpiece of the evening.

Like I said above, I think it's not that hard to find a more leisurely meal in the US, but many people (my dad being one example who comes to mind) get upset if they don't get quick service or have to linger after a meal. Some years ago my sister and I traveled around Italy together and we were joking about how my dad would have been going crazy. (Actually, I hope he'd adjust when abroad, but suspect he wouldn't like the meal style.)

Edit: I think snowflake's comments above about Italy kind of go along with this. Food in that sense really isn't that important for much of the US, only in certain subcultures. And that's why it's not surprising that we have a different idea of what it should cost, tend to see value as the main consideration on average (and thus get marketing focused on size) and so on. But again it's a big and diverse country, and you can seek out other approaches too. There certainly are restaurants where they will tell you the farm the various items came from, etc. (and not only on Portlandia).

Agreed on all counts. And my father in law is the same way, always getting impatient with servers. He was with us in Italy, and I was often cringing at how he treated the servers there....

I also agree about the transportation and other cultural changes having an impact on the overall attitude toward food. When we were in Italy, we didn't have a car, we literally walked everywhere. To the grocery store, to every meal, sight seeing all day. When we did go grocery shopping, we bought less because 1) we had to carry it back 2) we had limited storage space in our flat and 3) the food is fresher and we didn't want it to go bad. I always love food, cooking food, eating in restaurants, etc, whether I'm in the US or abroad, but it was particularly enjoyable in Italy when we were trying to prepare food in the local style, with minimal ingredients and focusing on bringing out the natural flavors in the food.

On the other hand, I have two small children, and the slow pace of dining in Italy was not always ideal for us. Sometimes you have a limited window and you need quick service and need to get out of there fast before a meltdown ensued. More than the slow pace of the general restaurant population, I was intrigued by how that approach works with young Italian children or in other European countries. Are they raised to be more patient in restaurants? In US restaurants, even at most sit down restaurants (not fine dining, but places like Applebees or Chilis) you will find kids menus with crayons and things to color. Kids (mine included sometimes) are distracted with electronics trying to help them make it through the dining experience. I didn't see any of that in Italy, and I was highly intrigued!

First of all, to be on topic, I think almost all Italians eat clean since the majority prepare their own food from scratch, however supermarkets are offering more packaged, convienience food all the time, so things are changing---it does take time to cook from scratch with fresh ingredients. As for children in restaurants here, they are adored by most Italians, and therefore, get away with alot of bad behaviour. This is true even in the better restaurants. If you want to keep your children occupied during a slow meal you have to bring toys or coloring books--it's not up to the restaurant to supply them. In most places, little kids are chasing each other and dodging between the servers legs--all normal here. I remember a good college friend of mine asked me, when my 3 sons were little, if I was raising them "American" or "Italian". This meant was I disciplining them, or letting them run wild. I, of course, was disciplining them, since I didn't want my kids bothering people. Such a meanie.

earlnabby

I'm sorry, I feel that we're failing to communicate clearly somehow, because it appears that you're suggesting that obesity is independent of poor food choices. Admittedly there are some small number of contributing factors regarding medical conditions or medication which might also contribute in some cases, but for the most part obesity is the result of choosing to eat too much food -- a poor choice. Does that clear up the confusion?

Also, eating less nutritious foods does not cause diabetes. A combination of several factors, including obesity, is what causes it.

Obesity does not cause diabetes. The same years of bad food choices and lack of exercise cause both obesity and Type II diabetes. There are people who have Type II that are only slightly overweight or even of normal weight (my brother was one of those). And there are many obese people who have no sign of diabetes. Even only about 60% of MORBIDLY obese folk are or are candidates for Type II. Many diabetes researchers refer to "diabesity" now--not because one causes the other but they are both caused by the same thing--years of excessively high blood glucose and the metabolic havoc that it wreaks.

I think she was simply saying that obesity is among the factors that can contribute to diabetes, not that it is required.

Yes, that is exactly what I was saying. The original post that started this tangent was the comment that diabetes is caused by "poor food choices",

ddas66

Dietitians will tell you to eat less calories than you consume to lose weight. On a basic level it is simple math Calories Out - Calories in = Weight Loss.

To loose weight you can eat an un-clean diet and yes that even includes a Trinkie diet if someone chooses, but to lose weight and improve your health (blood pressure, cholesterol etc) than a clean diet AKA Whole Diet is a much better way to go in my opinion.

I choose a clean diet because I want to make the most out of the calories I eat. I would rather eat a sweet potato than 3/4 snack sized bag of potato chips for the same calories. The bonus is: the sweet potato will not be GMO nor will it be chalk full of sodium and preservatives.

Navtendon

SunofaBeach14 wrote: »

Our bodies were made to eat real food; so it makes sense that anything that is not "real" would wreak havoc eventually. To me, real food, clean food, is anything that has not been altered. Of course, that does not mean cooking.

So, no study then? Thank you for once again posting a conclusion with no support.

Hahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!