"Clean" vs. "unclean" eating studies?
Replies
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Here's one that compared eating processed vs unprocessed food (bread and cheese). The whole food group had a 50% higher energy expenditure. Satiety was the same.
http://www.foodandnutritionresearch.net/index.php/fnr/article/view/5144/5755
What is unprocessed bread? And unprocessed cheese? How do you make either without some sort of processing.
What that study demonstrated was that the calorie definitions for the "whole" vs "processed" foods were inconsistent.
Processed in the case of the bread here is referring to milling, where bran, fiber, nutrients, etc., are removed.
I think that you have interpreted the results differently than the study authors, and reached your own conclusion about calorie definitions?
Same conclusions - the researchers found higher DIT (Dietary Induced Thermogenesis) for the whole meal versus "processed".
Since the amount of energy used to digest the equivalent caloric food was higher for the whole meal (which makes sense if the food items were evaluated on labeled standard value which are known to have errors) - they are inconsistent in that labeling doesn't take into consideration fiber, etc. It's one of the major shortcomings of nutritional labeling.
But it doesn't matter - because we don't really live on pasteurized prepared cheese product. And if we don't eat monolithically we tend to mix a variety of things at meals - if you follow a generally varied diet.
See - the definition of processing is random - according to the study the "whole food" bread they used was processed (from the study "Stone-ground whole wheat flour, water, brown sugar, wheat gluten, yeast...") and the "whole food" cheese was ....
How is that not processed?
This was what they had to say about that-
The WF meal tested in this study has approximately three times the amount of fiber as the PF meal (Table 2, see Appendices A and B for nutrition details) and although the exact relationship of meal fiber content and DIT is poorly known (31, 32), high-fiber diets are known to decrease the assimilation efficiency of foods (33). According to FDA and USDA guidelines, the calories on food labels list only assimilated calories, so this does not introduce a known discrepancy into our calculated isocaloric meal sizes (21). However, assimilated products from fermentable fiber tend to make accurate assessments of overall caloric assimilation difficult (32). This should be a minor problem for the present study given that the primary fiber source, wheat bran, is mainly insoluble and subject to less breakdown than more fermentable fibers (i.e. those found in fruit) (34). Bran-fiber does contribute to some short-chain fatty acid absorption by the colon, but to a small degree that would not significantly impact our results (34, 35).
I think the bold covers what I wrote. Also, remember that error rates on labels are anywhere from 5 to 15%.
Ok noted
I am sticking with the scientist and common sense for now... 0 -
Perhaps we just need better, more descriptive words to use. Many of the people here voicing opinions in support of processed foods are lumping all "processing" together. This is not a black and white issue by any means. Nobody is saying freezing something is the work of the devil. Canning, steaming, freezing, and generally any "processing" that keeps the food very close to it's original state and does not introduce harmful elements or remove significant nutrients is ok in my book. I am well aware that being able to freeze things helps us get through the winter. I am glad we steam cashews now that I know they are toxic because cashews are delicious. Fermented foods are actually quite good for you and introduce beneficial bacteria that help our digestive system. However, there are types of "processing" which are not as benign. To say the whole notion is stupid by lumping everything together is shortsighted, in my opinion.
And also, I recognize the fact that I will never be a 100% clean eater. In this day and age, I am not sure that is even possible. I make exceptions and do what is within my means, otherwise I would go nuts. But I do try as much as I can. I don't think you have to be perfect at something or do it 100% of the time to advocate it.0 -
Let me agree and be contrarian to my contrarian attitude.
I live in France and buying cheese is an art - "cheese product" doesn't cross my lips. But it is more related to taste, provenance and seller. I as my fromagier to make a recommendation based on a relationship we've built - I let him know what I didn't like, etc... It isn't about the processing - it's about taste. Cheese is processed, end of story. I like a lot of unpasteurized blue type and goat and some of the stinkier stuff and my daughters like the northern cheese (kids....).
But my cheese isn't clean! It's full of live cultures and mold and even flies (ah, I love tome cheese) and it's healthy. It's about taste. And taste dictates freshness and local produce and made to limited quantities not focused on volume, margin and price point.
Focus on food quality - not cleanliness or processing.
Now back to regularly scheduled butthead Evgeni, because even alimentary "quality" has all sorts of issues.
I mentioned in an earlier post (much earlier) in this thread that I do really love the European slow food movement. I was very impressed when I went to Europe with how dedicated everyone is to knowing what they are eating. Many restaurants have calories listed on the menu, its common to shop more frequently and buy smaller quantities of food at a time (maybe shopping just for the evening meal at a farmers market in the morning) and if you want to know where your food came from and who made it you can. Restaurants serve reasonable size portions that don't encourage overeating etc. Just a much healthier attitude overall I'd say.
But this also gets back to the problem I also mentioned earlier of why so many low income people in the United States are severely obese. They don't have the option to visit their local bakery or cheese shop to hand pick the foods they put in their mouths. If they do happen to have a place like this nearby the prices are double or triple what you'd pay somewhere else. (Whole Foods or Trader Joes anyone?) Not everyone has the the chance to meet the person who made their cheese or talk to them about how they made it. Many Americans are limited by their income (and the way life is here) to purchasing mass made products which they know little about sold through large retail chains and fast food restaurants.
I'm happy more people want to know what is in their food. Maybe one day we'll be able to have a healthier system... there's certainly a growing demand for it.0 -
I never see people address the issue that our ancestors ate 'clean' by most people's definitions, and still died at 40.
And no, they weren't just killed by lions, here's an article about Ootzi (ice age man), and the fact that he had hardened arteries, despite the fact (gasp!) that he didn't frequent McDonald's...
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/02/120228123847.htm0 -
I remember what the head of the FDA said once and I think it's the best advice. "Rotate your Poisons".
Any food in excess can cause unhealthy build up of bad elements inside of you.0 -
I never see people address the issue that our ancestors ate 'clean' by most people's definitions, and still died at 40.
And no, they weren't just killed by lions, here's an article about Ootzi (ice age man), and the fact that he had hardened arteries, despite the fact (gasp!) that he didn't frequent McDonald's...
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/02/120228123847.htm
I agree. We've made improvements so we're not dying of scurvy, leprosy or the plague. True. But have we reached the limits of human knowledge? I hope not. Do we still have the chance to continue improving our quality of life? I'd like to think so.
Otzi the ice man is a great example of how some diseases are often the result of genetics. Our DNA automatically makes us predisposed to certain diseases we're finding out that is more and more the case. But scientific proof is out there (and some noted in this thread) that eating some foods will make problems worse or create one where there wasn't before. Diabetes in particular is attributed to poor diet. While the foods you eat aren't the only factor in health...they do play an important part.
You can't control your genetics. But you can control what you eat.0 -
mmmmm... if i wasn't so full from processed food, I'd want cheese.
Bloody Marys are processed and unclean.
And by "processed" and "unclean" I mean "delicious" and "happy".
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I never see people address the issue that our ancestors ate 'clean' by most people's definitions, and still died at 40.
And no, they weren't just killed by lions, here's an article about Ootzi (ice age man), and the fact that he had hardened arteries, despite the fact (gasp!) that he didn't frequent McDonald's...
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/02/120228123847.htm
I agree. We've made improvements so we're not dying of scurvy, leprosy or the plague. True. But have we reached the limits of human knowledge? I hope not. Do we still have the chance to continue improving our quality of life? I'd like to think so.
Otzi the ice man is a great example of how some diseases are often the result of genetics. Our DNA automatically makes us predisposed to certain diseases we're finding out that is more and more the case. But scientific proof is out there (and some noted in this thread) that eating some foods will make problems worse or create one where there wasn't before. Diabetes in particular is attributed to poor diet. While the foods you eat aren't the only factor in health...they do play an important part.
You can't control your genetics. But you can control what you eat.
I wholeheartedly agree! The studies I've seen so far in the past couple of days extensively lean toward a plant based diet having a significant impact on health markers and preventing nutrition-based disease. It hurts me to admit it, since I'm a very devout omnivore, but I think the evidence is overwhelming, and I'm going to have to at least cut back on my meat consumption. I'm one of those people who eats some form of meat, poultry, seafood or eggs with nearly every meal, so it's going to be quite a change, but I think it's worth at least trying.0 -
Whatever the deal is, my own experience is this; I ate fast food all my life and survived right up to and after my heart attacks.
Now that i'm eating clean, I feel healthier and better about myself. Does anything else matter really?
For you, no, of course not.
For me, I think the term "clean eating" doesn't really tell me anything. I have no real idea how you eat from what you just said, as there are tons of different ideas about what it means, what's "unclean," etc. So if someone wants to communicate with others about those topics, "clean" is not really helpful. Thus, I always wonder why it's used, and suspect rather unflattering motives (a desire to proclaim superiority over others or to preen or some such). For the record, I am not assuming that from what you wrote, but it's one reason it really rubs me the wrong way, and I would certainly never use the term myself.
Beyond that, usually the claim is made that others would be healthier if they ate "clean." Personally, I think how one eats matters, and going from a diet of, say, primarily fast food burgers and fries and sweets to one that is both calorie appropriate and includes lots of fruits and vegetables and a better macro balance is obviously going to matter for health, on the average. But does that mean that it's also true that going from a diet that is calorie appropriate, and includes a lot of fruits and vegetables and a good macro balance to one that is the same, but also relies on organic foods only, or locally-available items only, or that excludes all items that are processed in any quantity or any items with added sugar, etc., is then healthier still, or that the diet without this added elements was unhealthy? I think this last is essentially the claim being made by "clean eating" proponents here, and it's why I'm always drawn into the argument.0 -
Let me agree and be contrarian to my contrarian attitude.
I live in France and buying cheese is an art - "cheese product" doesn't cross my lips. But it is more related to taste, provenance and seller. I as my fromagier to make a recommendation based on a relationship we've built - I let him know what I didn't like, etc... It isn't about the processing - it's about taste. Cheese is processed, end of story. I like a lot of unpasteurized blue type and goat and some of the stinkier stuff and my daughters like the northern cheese (kids....).
But my cheese isn't clean! It's full of live cultures and mold and even flies (ah, I love tome cheese) and it's healthy. It's about taste. And taste dictates freshness and local produce and made to limited quantities not focused on volume, margin and price point.
Focus on food quality - not cleanliness or processing.
Now back to regularly scheduled butthead Evgeni, because even alimentary "quality" has all sorts of issues.
I mentioned in an earlier post (much earlier) in this thread that I do really love the European slow food movement. I was very impressed when I went to Europe with how dedicated everyone is to knowing what they are eating. Many restaurants have calories listed on the menu, its common to shop more frequently and buy smaller quantities of food at a time (maybe shopping just for the evening meal at a farmers market in the morning) and if you want to know where your food came from and who made it you can. Restaurants serve reasonable size portions that don't encourage overeating etc. Just a much healthier attitude overall I'd say.
But this also gets back to the problem I also mentioned earlier of why so many low income people in the United States are severely obese. They don't have the option to visit their local bakery or cheese shop to hand pick the foods they put in their mouths. If they do happen to have a place like this nearby the prices are double or triple what you'd pay somewhere else. (Whole Foods or Trader Joes anyone?) Not everyone has the the chance to meet the person who made their cheese or talk to them about how they made it. Many Americans are limited by their income (and the way life is here) to purchasing mass made products which they know little about sold through large retail chains and fast food restaurants.
I'm happy more people want to know what is in their food. Maybe one day we'll be able to have a healthier system... there's certainly a growing demand for it.
I think I see what you mean - except we don't call it slow food. We call it food.
When I am in France I have access to one of Europe's largest open air markets two-three times a week - a block away. And it's true that overall French (and German's to a lesser extent) have access to small shops for butchers, bakeries, etc... that are less present in the US. However, the cost of food isn't lower in Europe.
I've lived in the US and frankly the argument that quality food is somehow more cheaply available here is false. It's also largely incorrect to assume that processed produce is what makes the poor in America obese. It isn't some magical element of processing - it's cheap flavorful calories. Food has never been more readily available as a cheap convenience. Food is very inexpensive in America.
If I remember correctly, Americans spend a lot less on food than Europeans both in terms of GDP and absolute per capita.
Edit: Found some info.
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Diabetes in particular is attributed to poor diet. While the foods you eat aren't the only factor in health...they do play an important part.
You can't control your genetics. But you can control what you eat.
Diabetes is actually NOT the result of a poor diet. People who develop it will have 2 or more risk factors, and poor diet is actually not one of them. Genetics is the #1 risk factor, then you add in obesity (too much food, not necessarily poor quality food), long term antidepressant use, long term statin use, if your mother had gestational diabetes when you were in the womb, increased risk as you (and your pancreas) age, sleep disturbances like chronic insomnia, and there is even some correlation (but not proven causation) with environmental factors like exposure to atrazine in herbicides, arsenic, BPA's. etc.0 -
The benefit of supporting organic foods is primarily environmental, rather than nutritional. And yeah, there's a price associated with that. But I think most of the additional cost we currently see is supply and demand related.
What I liked about the Whole 30 book is that it has realistic expectations - not everyone can afford all natural, organic, grass fed, etc foods, so it gives advice on which things are most important. The information is presented in a sensible way, and the idea of 85/15 was more realistic to me (because who is really able to give up everything forever? No chocolate for 30 days, sure, but forever?)
I rarely by organic
I know ppl swear by it.....but honestly, most studies I have read.....
"Organic" or not....the benefits are the same, so the price difference to me is not.0 -
Diabetes in particular is attributed to poor diet. While the foods you eat aren't the only factor in health...they do play an important part.
You can't control your genetics. But you can control what you eat.
Diabetes is actually NOT the result of a poor diet. People who develop it will have 2 or more risk factors, and poor diet is actually not one of them. Genetics is the #1 risk factor, then you add in obesity (too much food, not necessarily poor quality food), long term antidepressant use, long term statin use, if your mother had gestational diabetes when you were in the womb, increased risk as you (and your pancreas) age, sleep disturbances like chronic insomnia, and there is even some correlation (but not proven causation) with environmental factors like exposure to atrazine in herbicides, arsenic, BPA's. etc.
Perhaps by "poor diet" the poster meant something more along the lines of "poor dietary choices." Which is quite accurate.0 -
Let me agree and be contrarian to my contrarian attitude.
I live in France and buying cheese is an art - "cheese product" doesn't cross my lips. But it is more related to taste, provenance and seller. I as my fromagier to make a recommendation based on a relationship we've built - I let him know what I didn't like, etc... It isn't about the processing - it's about taste. Cheese is processed, end of story. I like a lot of unpasteurized blue type and goat and some of the stinkier stuff and my daughters like the northern cheese (kids....).
But my cheese isn't clean! It's full of live cultures and mold and even flies (ah, I love tome cheese) and it's healthy. It's about taste. And taste dictates freshness and local produce and made to limited quantities not focused on volume, margin and price point.
Focus on food quality - not cleanliness or processing.
Now back to regularly scheduled butthead Evgeni, because even alimentary "quality" has all sorts of issues.
I mentioned in an earlier post (much earlier) in this thread that I do really love the European slow food movement. I was very impressed when I went to Europe with how dedicated everyone is to knowing what they are eating. Many restaurants have calories listed on the menu, its common to shop more frequently and buy smaller quantities of food at a time (maybe shopping just for the evening meal at a farmers market in the morning) and if you want to know where your food came from and who made it you can. Restaurants serve reasonable size portions that don't encourage overeating etc. Just a much healthier attitude overall I'd say.
But this also gets back to the problem I also mentioned earlier of why so many low income people in the United States are severely obese. They don't have the option to visit their local bakery or cheese shop to hand pick the foods they put in their mouths. If they do happen to have a place like this nearby the prices are double or triple what you'd pay somewhere else. (Whole Foods or Trader Joes anyone?) Not everyone has the the chance to meet the person who made their cheese or talk to them about how they made it. Many Americans are limited by their income (and the way life is here) to purchasing mass made products which they know little about sold through large retail chains and fast food restaurants.
I'm happy more people want to know what is in their food. Maybe one day we'll be able to have a healthier system... there's certainly a growing demand for it.
I think I see what you mean - except we don't call it slow food. We call it food.
When I am in France I have access to one of Europe's largest open air markets two-three times a week - a block away. And it's true that overall French (and German's to a lesser extent) have access to small shops for butchers, bakeries, etc... that are less present in the US. However, the cost of food isn't lower in Europe.
I've lived in the US and frankly the argument that quality food is somehow more cheaply available here is false. It's also largely incorrect to assume that processed produce is what makes the poor in America obese. It isn't some magical element of processing - it's cheap flavorful calories. Food has never been more readily available as a cheap convenience. Food is very inexpensive in America.
If I remember correctly, Americans spend a lot less on food than Europeans both in terms of GDP and absolute per capita.
I think the issue in America is that even with inexpensive foods available, the least expensive foods are basically crap, and we have a large population at or below the poverty line who have little choice but to eat that crap because they can't easily afford even the inexpensive healthy food. A few items off the dollar menu are quite filling, whereas those same few dollars will only buy one or two produce items which then have to be cooked and seasoned to make them palatable...and then we're still missing protein from the meal.
There are also "food deserts" in America...places where fresh produce or groceries with reasonable variety just don't exist. These are usually inner city areas where the only access to food is in restaurants or convenience stores with limited and poor quality offerings.0 -
Sometimes if I drop an M&M on the floor, I eat it.0
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Let me agree and be contrarian to my contrarian attitude.
I live in France and buying cheese is an art - "cheese product" doesn't cross my lips. But it is more related to taste, provenance and seller. I as my fromagier to make a recommendation based on a relationship we've built - I let him know what I didn't like, etc... It isn't about the processing - it's about taste. Cheese is processed, end of story. I like a lot of unpasteurized blue type and goat and some of the stinkier stuff and my daughters like the northern cheese (kids....).
But my cheese isn't clean! It's full of live cultures and mold and even flies (ah, I love tome cheese) and it's healthy. It's about taste. And taste dictates freshness and local produce and made to limited quantities not focused on volume, margin and price point.
Focus on food quality - not cleanliness or processing.
Now back to regularly scheduled butthead Evgeni, because even alimentary "quality" has all sorts of issues.
I mentioned in an earlier post (much earlier) in this thread that I do really love the European slow food movement. I was very impressed when I went to Europe with how dedicated everyone is to knowing what they are eating. Many restaurants have calories listed on the menu, its common to shop more frequently and buy smaller quantities of food at a time (maybe shopping just for the evening meal at a farmers market in the morning) and if you want to know where your food came from and who made it you can. Restaurants serve reasonable size portions that don't encourage overeating etc. Just a much healthier attitude overall I'd say.
But this also gets back to the problem I also mentioned earlier of why so many low income people in the United States are severely obese. They don't have the option to visit their local bakery or cheese shop to hand pick the foods they put in their mouths. If they do happen to have a place like this nearby the prices are double or triple what you'd pay somewhere else. (Whole Foods or Trader Joes anyone?) Not everyone has the the chance to meet the person who made their cheese or talk to them about how they made it. Many Americans are limited by their income (and the way life is here) to purchasing mass made products which they know little about sold through large retail chains and fast food restaurants.
I'm happy more people want to know what is in their food. Maybe one day we'll be able to have a healthier system... there's certainly a growing demand for it.
I think I see what you mean - except we don't call it slow food. We call it food.
When I am in France I have access to one of Europe's largest open air markets two-three times a week - a block away. And it's true that overall French (and German's to a lesser extent) have access to small shops for butchers, bakeries, etc... that are less present in the US. However, the cost of food isn't lower in Europe.
I've lived in the US and frankly the argument that quality food is somehow more cheaply available here is false. It's also largely incorrect to assume that processed produce is what makes the poor in America obese. It isn't some magical element of processing - it's cheap flavorful calories. Food has never been more readily available as a cheap convenience. Food is very inexpensive in America.
If I remember correctly, Americans spend a lot less on food than Europeans both in terms of GDP and absolute per capita.
I really appreciate hearing your thoughts on this.
We definitely have cheap food here. But its not quality food. Its cheap, flavorful, high in calories and low in nutritional value. Low income families can eat off the dollar menu at McDonalds and get a large volume of food very cheaply. Buying fresh fruits and veggies from a local market is much more expensive. I wonder though if we shopped for quality ingredients of the same kind (locally made specialty foods), if they wouldn't be similar in price in both countries? I'm not sure. Perhaps it is that Europeans place a different value on the quality of their food? In your opinion is that the case?
I remember spending about 6 euros for a picnic lunch in Paris and maybe 25 euros for a very nice dinner at a restaurant. It felt similar to what I would have paid in the U.S. equivalent for similar quality food. But that was several years ago and perhaps things have changed.
I really appreciate hearing your perspective.0 -
Diabetes in particular is attributed to poor diet. While the foods you eat aren't the only factor in health...they do play an important part.
You can't control your genetics. But you can control what you eat.
Diabetes is actually NOT the result of a poor diet. People who develop it will have 2 or more risk factors, and poor diet is actually not one of them. Genetics is the #1 risk factor, then you add in obesity (too much food, not necessarily poor quality food), long term antidepressant use, long term statin use, if your mother had gestational diabetes when you were in the womb, increased risk as you (and your pancreas) age, sleep disturbances like chronic insomnia, and there is even some correlation (but not proven causation) with environmental factors like exposure to atrazine in herbicides, arsenic, BPA's. etc.
Perhaps by "poor diet" the poster meant something more along the lines of "poor dietary choices." Which is quite accurate.
Yes thank you for correcting me. I meant "poor diet" as in eating unhealthy meals...in regards to calories, exercise etc. Studies are also showing certain foods may contribute to diabetes (in addition to the risk factors you mentioned above).
The American Diabetic Association website recommends losing weight and avoiding high glycemic foods as ways to prevent and manage diabetes.
http://clinical.diabetesjournals.org/content/29/4/155.full
and these journal articles also provide additional study data:
http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=647390
"Recently, several studies found that the glycemic index is positively associated with the incidence of type 2 diabetes mellitus12,13 and cardiovascular disease.14"
http://clinical.diabetesjournals.org/content/29/2/73.full?ijkey=dff73ca1a0e8a7f4f87dd94ef9a419e615a78570&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha
(it discusses the Glycemic Index as a method to prevent and also treat diabetes in the commentary section and the study itself)0 -
Let me agree and be contrarian to my contrarian attitude.
I live in France and buying cheese is an art - "cheese product" doesn't cross my lips. But it is more related to taste, provenance and seller. I as my fromagier to make a recommendation based on a relationship we've built - I let him know what I didn't like, etc... It isn't about the processing - it's about taste. Cheese is processed, end of story. I like a lot of unpasteurized blue type and goat and some of the stinkier stuff and my daughters like the northern cheese (kids....).
But my cheese isn't clean! It's full of live cultures and mold and even flies (ah, I love tome cheese) and it's healthy. It's about taste. And taste dictates freshness and local produce and made to limited quantities not focused on volume, margin and price point.
Focus on food quality - not cleanliness or processing.
Now back to regularly scheduled butthead Evgeni, because even alimentary "quality" has all sorts of issues.
I mentioned in an earlier post (much earlier) in this thread that I do really love the European slow food movement. I was very impressed when I went to Europe with how dedicated everyone is to knowing what they are eating. Many restaurants have calories listed on the menu, its common to shop more frequently and buy smaller quantities of food at a time (maybe shopping just for the evening meal at a farmers market in the morning) and if you want to know where your food came from and who made it you can. Restaurants serve reasonable size portions that don't encourage overeating etc. Just a much healthier attitude overall I'd say.
But this also gets back to the problem I also mentioned earlier of why so many low income people in the United States are severely obese. They don't have the option to visit their local bakery or cheese shop to hand pick the foods they put in their mouths. If they do happen to have a place like this nearby the prices are double or triple what you'd pay somewhere else. (Whole Foods or Trader Joes anyone?) Not everyone has the the chance to meet the person who made their cheese or talk to them about how they made it. Many Americans are limited by their income (and the way life is here) to purchasing mass made products which they know little about sold through large retail chains and fast food restaurants.
I'm happy more people want to know what is in their food. Maybe one day we'll be able to have a healthier system... there's certainly a growing demand for it.
I think I see what you mean - except we don't call it slow food. We call it food.
When I am in France I have access to one of Europe's largest open air markets two-three times a week - a block away. And it's true that overall French (and German's to a lesser extent) have access to small shops for butchers, bakeries, etc... that are less present in the US. However, the cost of food isn't lower in Europe.
I've lived in the US and frankly the argument that quality food is somehow more cheaply available here is false. It's also largely incorrect to assume that processed produce is what makes the poor in America obese. It isn't some magical element of processing - it's cheap flavorful calories. Food has never been more readily available as a cheap convenience. Food is very inexpensive in America.
If I remember correctly, Americans spend a lot less on food than Europeans both in terms of GDP and absolute per capita.
I really appreciate hearing your thoughts on this.
We definitely have cheap food here. But its not quality food. Its cheap, flavorful, high in calories and low in nutritional value. Low income families can eat off the dollar menu at McDonalds and get a large volume of food very cheaply. Buying fresh fruits and veggies from a local market is much more expensive. I wonder though if we shopped for quality ingredients of the same kind (locally made specialty foods), if they wouldn't be similar in price in both countries? I'm not sure. Perhaps it is that Europeans place a different value on the quality of their food? In your opinion is that the case?
I remember spending about 6 euros for a picnic lunch in Paris and maybe 25 euros for a very nice dinner at a restaurant. It felt similar to what I would have paid in the U.S. equivalent for similar quality food. But that was several years ago and perhaps things have changed.
I really appreciate hearing your perspective.
Well - let's see what we can find:
It seems that for products like beef and chicken - per pound it's about 1/2 to 1/6th the price in the US. Lettuce and pasta, about the same potatoes are twice as expensive in France. White rice ... 20% more expensive in Germany.
But that's just one reference and I'm not even sure it's indexed on cost of living.
(http://www.dailyfinance.com/photos/food-price-comparison-around-the-world/?photo=2#!slide=988849)
Even within Europe I've found that we have a large difference in food attitudes and focus - a lot of it might be due to shopping attitudes - you mentioned we shop more often. It's true. Bigger fridges are called American here. We shop 2-3 times a week for small amounts (it isn't unusual to see shoppers go to shops on bikes - much less seen in the US).
We joke that the French only talk about a prior meal they've had whenever they are eating. There is some truth in that. And having Americans over for a meal - we tend to warn not to take seconds on the early dishes because we tend to serve a starter, main, salad, cheese, dessert... All anecdotal but varying attitudes do exist. Both geography and urban design means Europeans tend to use cars less - that certainly must have an influence on activity levels, etc... Obesity reasons are complex.
As to the cost of meals - I recently spent $40 for two including wine for a nice meal in Berlin - the same meal in Frankfurt or Paris would have been 2-3 times that.0 -
Ooooh, "unclean"! But if you wipe if off on your shirt it's clean again - magic!Sometimes if I drop an M&M on the floor, I eat it.0 -
Let me agree and be contrarian to my contrarian attitude.
I live in France and buying cheese is an art - "cheese product" doesn't cross my lips. But it is more related to taste, provenance and seller. I as my fromagier to make a recommendation based on a relationship we've built - I let him know what I didn't like, etc... It isn't about the processing - it's about taste. Cheese is processed, end of story. I like a lot of unpasteurized blue type and goat and some of the stinkier stuff and my daughters like the northern cheese (kids....).
But my cheese isn't clean! It's full of live cultures and mold and even flies (ah, I love tome cheese) and it's healthy. It's about taste. And taste dictates freshness and local produce and made to limited quantities not focused on volume, margin and price point.
Focus on food quality - not cleanliness or processing.
Now back to regularly scheduled butthead Evgeni, because even alimentary "quality" has all sorts of issues.
I mentioned in an earlier post (much earlier) in this thread that I do really love the European slow food movement. I was very impressed when I went to Europe with how dedicated everyone is to knowing what they are eating. Many restaurants have calories listed on the menu, its common to shop more frequently and buy smaller quantities of food at a time (maybe shopping just for the evening meal at a farmers market in the morning) and if you want to know where your food came from and who made it you can. Restaurants serve reasonable size portions that don't encourage overeating etc. Just a much healthier attitude overall I'd say.
But this also gets back to the problem I also mentioned earlier of why so many low income people in the United States are severely obese. They don't have the option to visit their local bakery or cheese shop to hand pick the foods they put in their mouths. If they do happen to have a place like this nearby the prices are double or triple what you'd pay somewhere else. (Whole Foods or Trader Joes anyone?) Not everyone has the the chance to meet the person who made their cheese or talk to them about how they made it. Many Americans are limited by their income (and the way life is here) to purchasing mass made products which they know little about sold through large retail chains and fast food restaurants.
I'm happy more people want to know what is in their food. Maybe one day we'll be able to have a healthier system... there's certainly a growing demand for it.
I think I see what you mean - except we don't call it slow food. We call it food.
When I am in France I have access to one of Europe's largest open air markets two-three times a week - a block away. And it's true that overall French (and German's to a lesser extent) have access to small shops for butchers, bakeries, etc... that are less present in the US. However, the cost of food isn't lower in Europe.
I've lived in the US and frankly the argument that quality food is somehow more cheaply available here is false. It's also largely incorrect to assume that processed produce is what makes the poor in America obese. It isn't some magical element of processing - it's cheap flavorful calories. Food has never been more readily available as a cheap convenience. Food is very inexpensive in America.
If I remember correctly, Americans spend a lot less on food than Europeans both in terms of GDP and absolute per capita.
I really appreciate hearing your thoughts on this.
We definitely have cheap food here. But its not quality food. Its cheap, flavorful, high in calories and low in nutritional value. Low income families can eat off the dollar menu at McDonalds and get a large volume of food very cheaply. Buying fresh fruits and veggies from a local market is much more expensive. I wonder though if we shopped for quality ingredients of the same kind (locally made specialty foods), if they wouldn't be similar in price in both countries? I'm not sure. Perhaps it is that Europeans place a different value on the quality of their food? In your opinion is that the case?
I remember spending about 6 euros for a picnic lunch in Paris and maybe 25 euros for a very nice dinner at a restaurant. It felt similar to what I would have paid in the U.S. equivalent for similar quality food. But that was several years ago and perhaps things have changed.
I really appreciate hearing your perspective.
Well - let's see what we can find:
It seems that for products like beef and chicken - per pound it's about 1/2 to 1/6th the price in the US. Lettuce and pasta, about the same potatoes are twice as expensive in France. White rice ... 20% more expensive in Germany.
But that's just one reference and I'm not even sure it's indexed on cost of living.
(http://www.dailyfinance.com/photos/food-price-comparison-around-the-world/?photo=2#!slide=988849)
Even within Europe I've found that we have a large difference in food attitudes and focus - a lot of it might be due to shopping attitudes - you mentioned we shop more often. It's true. Bigger fridges are called American here. We shop 2-3 times a week for small amounts (it isn't unusual to see shoppers go to shops on bikes - much less seen in the US).
We joke that the French only talk about a prior meal they've had whenever they are eating. There is some truth in that. And having Americans over for a meal - we tend to warn not to take seconds on the early dishes because we tend to serve a starter, main, salad, cheese, dessert... All anecdotal but varying attitudes do exist. Both geography and urban design means Europeans tend to use cars less - that certainly must have an influence on activity levels, etc... Obesity reasons are complex.
As to the cost of meals - I recently spent $40 for two including wine for a nice meal in Berlin - the same meal in Frankfurt or Paris would have been 2-3 times that.
Great information. Thank you for sharing.
I suppose that's why Americans have developed the term "slow food" for the European style then. I do remember dinner would often take much longer and was very relaxed.It was lovely to go for a meal in the evening and have it last several hours with smaller courses. It felt much nicer than the stressful rush at restaurants here where you eat a big portion of one or two things quickly.
Physical activity can definitely be a contributing factor. I'm fortunate to live in an area where I can walk to get most of the things I need but that is pretty uncommon here.0 -
Let me agree and be contrarian to my contrarian attitude.
I live in France and buying cheese is an art - "cheese product" doesn't cross my lips. But it is more related to taste, provenance and seller. I as my fromagier to make a recommendation based on a relationship we've built - I let him know what I didn't like, etc... It isn't about the processing - it's about taste. Cheese is processed, end of story. I like a lot of unpasteurized blue type and goat and some of the stinkier stuff and my daughters like the northern cheese (kids....).
But my cheese isn't clean! It's full of live cultures and mold and even flies (ah, I love tome cheese) and it's healthy. It's about taste. And taste dictates freshness and local produce and made to limited quantities not focused on volume, margin and price point.
Focus on food quality - not cleanliness or processing.
Now back to regularly scheduled butthead Evgeni, because even alimentary "quality" has all sorts of issues.
I mentioned in an earlier post (much earlier) in this thread that I do really love the European slow food movement. I was very impressed when I went to Europe with how dedicated everyone is to knowing what they are eating. Many restaurants have calories listed on the menu, its common to shop more frequently and buy smaller quantities of food at a time (maybe shopping just for the evening meal at a farmers market in the morning) and if you want to know where your food came from and who made it you can. Restaurants serve reasonable size portions that don't encourage overeating etc. Just a much healthier attitude overall I'd say.
But this also gets back to the problem I also mentioned earlier of why so many low income people in the United States are severely obese. They don't have the option to visit their local bakery or cheese shop to hand pick the foods they put in their mouths. If they do happen to have a place like this nearby the prices are double or triple what you'd pay somewhere else. (Whole Foods or Trader Joes anyone?) Not everyone has the the chance to meet the person who made their cheese or talk to them about how they made it. Many Americans are limited by their income (and the way life is here) to purchasing mass made products which they know little about sold through large retail chains and fast food restaurants.
I'm happy more people want to know what is in their food. Maybe one day we'll be able to have a healthier system... there's certainly a growing demand for it.
I think I see what you mean - except we don't call it slow food. We call it food.
When I am in France I have access to one of Europe's largest open air markets two-three times a week - a block away. And it's true that overall French (and German's to a lesser extent) have access to small shops for butchers, bakeries, etc... that are less present in the US. However, the cost of food isn't lower in Europe.
I've lived in the US and frankly the argument that quality food is somehow more cheaply available here is false. It's also largely incorrect to assume that processed produce is what makes the poor in America obese. It isn't some magical element of processing - it's cheap flavorful calories. Food has never been more readily available as a cheap convenience. Food is very inexpensive in America.
If I remember correctly, Americans spend a lot less on food than Europeans both in terms of GDP and absolute per capita.
I really appreciate hearing your thoughts on this.
We definitely have cheap food here. But its not quality food. Its cheap, flavorful, high in calories and low in nutritional value. Low income families can eat off the dollar menu at McDonalds and get a large volume of food very cheaply. Buying fresh fruits and veggies from a local market is much more expensive. I wonder though if we shopped for quality ingredients of the same kind (locally made specialty foods), if they wouldn't be similar in price in both countries? I'm not sure. Perhaps it is that Europeans place a different value on the quality of their food? In your opinion is that the case?
I remember spending about 6 euros for a picnic lunch in Paris and maybe 25 euros for a very nice dinner at a restaurant. It felt similar to what I would have paid in the U.S. equivalent for similar quality food. But that was several years ago and perhaps things have changed.
I really appreciate hearing your perspective.
Well - let's see what we can find:
It seems that for products like beef and chicken - per pound it's about 1/2 to 1/6th the price in the US. Lettuce and pasta, about the same potatoes are twice as expensive in France. White rice ... 20% more expensive in Germany.
But that's just one reference and I'm not even sure it's indexed on cost of living.
(http://www.dailyfinance.com/photos/food-price-comparison-around-the-world/?photo=2#!slide=988849)
Even within Europe I've found that we have a large difference in food attitudes and focus - a lot of it might be due to shopping attitudes - you mentioned we shop more often. It's true. Bigger fridges are called American here. We shop 2-3 times a week for small amounts (it isn't unusual to see shoppers go to shops on bikes - much less seen in the US).
We joke that the French only talk about a prior meal they've had whenever they are eating. There is some truth in that. And having Americans over for a meal - we tend to warn not to take seconds on the early dishes because we tend to serve a starter, main, salad, cheese, dessert... All anecdotal but varying attitudes do exist. Both geography and urban design means Europeans tend to use cars less - that certainly must have an influence on activity levels, etc... Obesity reasons are complex.
As to the cost of meals - I recently spent $40 for two including wine for a nice meal in Berlin - the same meal in Frankfurt or Paris would have been 2-3 times that.
Great information. Thank you for sharing.
I suppose that's why Americans have developed the term "slow food" for the European style then. I do remember dinner would often take much longer and was very relaxed.It was lovely to go for a meal in the evening and have it last several hours with smaller courses. It felt much nicer than the stressful rush at restaurants here where you eat a big portion of one or two things quickly.
Physical activity can definitely be a contributing factor. I'm fortunate to live in an area where I can walk to get most of the things I need but that is pretty uncommon here.
I spent some time in Europe this past summer, in Italy for a month while my husband was teaching, and then in Switzerland and Germany for work. I definitely noticed the difference in the pace of meals at restaurants, and commented about it with my German colleagues when I was with them. They said that in Europe, the meal is at the diner's pace. The diner dictates when they want to order food, whether they want to order more food, and when the bill should be presented. Whereas when they have visited the US, they have observed that they feel almost rushed out of a restaurant by a server, hounding them with questions like, Are you ready to order? Would you like dessert? Here is your check! We speculated that some of that may also be related to the fact that American servers depend primarily on tips, where tipping is much less prevalent in Europe. It behooves American servers to turn their tables faster, increasing their potential for tips.0 -
Diabetes in particular is attributed to poor diet. While the foods you eat aren't the only factor in health...they do play an important part.
You can't control your genetics. But you can control what you eat.
Diabetes is actually NOT the result of a poor diet. People who develop it will have 2 or more risk factors, and poor diet is actually not one of them. Genetics is the #1 risk factor, then you add in obesity (too much food, not necessarily poor quality food), long term antidepressant use, long term statin use, if your mother had gestational diabetes when you were in the womb, increased risk as you (and your pancreas) age, sleep disturbances like chronic insomnia, and there is even some correlation (but not proven causation) with environmental factors like exposure to atrazine in herbicides, arsenic, BPA's. etc.
Perhaps by "poor diet" the poster meant something more along the lines of "poor dietary choices." Which is quite accurate.
Actually, it isn't accurate and that was the whole point. Obesity is a risk factor for diabetes. Poor food choices, unless you are talking about the quantity needed to become obese, are not. Once a person has diabetes, food choices are a factor in managing it, but not preventing it. Blood Sugar 101 ( http://www.phlaunt.com/ ) has much more detail and links to various scientific studies.0 -
Perhaps we just need better, more descriptive words to use. Many of the people here voicing opinions in support of processed foods are lumping all "processing" together. This is not a black and white issue by any means. Nobody is saying freezing something is the work of the devil. Canning, steaming, freezing, and generally any "processing" that keeps the food very close to it's original state and does not introduce harmful elements or remove significant nutrients is ok in my book. I am well aware that being able to freeze things helps us get through the winter. I am glad we steam cashews now that I know they are toxic because cashews are delicious. Fermented foods are actually quite good for you and introduce beneficial bacteria that help our digestive system. However, there are types of "processing" which are not as benign. To say the whole notion is stupid by lumping everything together is shortsighted, in my opinion.
Lumping everything together is certainly one of my objections, but I think it's the "clean" eaters who do it. At least, those who don't insist "clean eating" is eating paleo or not eating "white foods" or whatever typically claim the issue is eating "processed foods," thereby lumping together foods that seem to me undeniably healthy and others to which there may be specific objections (i.e., transfats, HFCS, whatever specific additives worry you). It makes more sense to me to focus on the specifics, and also not to mix up issues of calorie density (which has nothing to do with processing), nutrient density (usually same), and additives that worry you.And also, I recognize the fact that I will never be a 100% clean eater. In this day and age, I am not sure that is even possible. I make exceptions and do what is within my means, otherwise I would go nuts. But I do try as much as I can. I don't think you have to be perfect at something or do it 100% of the time to advocate it.
Again, I think there's a problem with the term "clean" and with the idea that health is determined by eating 0% of something vs. focusing one's diet on foods that are nutrient-dense, etc., but interestingly this goes back to what the concern is. If you are really worried about additives, then maybe trying to be as "clean" as possible would be sensible (and we can discuss the evidence relating to the particular additives--there are various ingredients that I choose to avoid, even if I think your particular concern about sugar, for example, is not particularly convincing). But if you are concerned about nutrition, as people espousing "clean" are usually arguing, then it makes no sense to think in terms of "clean" and "unclean" vs. the diet as a whole. I think "clean" promotes a screwed up way of thinking about food.
I don't like a lot of the same things the "clean" people don't like, but that's purely on a taste basis. (I can't comprehend that someone would intentionally buy a cheese product or boxed potatoes, but I'm sure I eat things others find odd.) But I can't bring myself to feel like the fact I can't be a locovore in the climate I live in is a terrible thing or that I'd be better off and healthier if I canned and otherwise preserved foods for the winter vs. being able to go to the store. That seems like a romantic idea, but not really a grounded one.0 -
Actually, it isn't accurate and that was the whole point. Obesity is a risk factor for diabetes. Poor food choices, unless you are talking about the quantity needed to become obese, are not. Once a person has diabetes, food choices are a factor in managing it, but not preventing it. Blood Sugar 101 ( http://www.phlaunt.com/ ) has much more detail and links to various scientific studies.
I'm sure what your saying is correct. I definitely don't want to argue at all. Just sharing what I've read. Perhaps this research I found is too new to be considered conclusive. I'm not sure.
American Diabetic Association's journal article relating to the Glycemic Index does indicate there are food choices that may help prevent diabetes. (Low GI foods). And that high GI foods can contribute to a person getting diabetes. Since the Glycemic Index really just ranks foods in relation to health it says what common sense tells us. Fruits, veggies and whole grains are the best, its probably not earth shattering material anyway. Someone who eats this way will likely weigh less and reduce their risk of diabetes.
If you interpret the information differently than I do in the studies though I'd love to hear your perspective. I'm open minded
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I've lived in Italy for 29 years now. My husband is Italian, so I know how they think. Food here is a cultural thing. Food is discussed at the table, quality, recipes, origin etc. If something is very good, there is a discussion on why---because they care and want to duplicate the result. The same happens when eating food that is so-so. It will be criticized and picked apart, so as not to repeat the mistake, or eat in that restaurant again. As you get used to good food with superior taste and ingredients, it's difficult to eat something inferior. Good restaurants are talked about, and they are not necessarily the most expensive. Different regions have their specialties, and guard them jealously. It's hard to understand this if you don't live here.0
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If they do happen to have a place like this nearby the prices are double or triple what you'd pay somewhere else. (Whole Foods or Trader Joes anyone?)
Trader Joe's is much cheaper than WF. I live right between (walking distance to) each of those plus a Jewel (standard US supermarket), and the TJ is consistently cheaper in a lot of ways than the Jewel, which is of course cheaper than the WF. (There are also lots of farmers markets around throughout the summer and fall.)
I don't disagree that there's a lot of difference as to what is available in different neighborhoods, but just wanted to point out that TJ's isn't really the same as WF.
There are also Aldi's around here, and I believe that's a more inexpensive grocery, as well as various other chains, food shops of a wide variety of kinds, and ethnic markets.0 -
If they do happen to have a place like this nearby the prices are double or triple what you'd pay somewhere else. (Whole Foods or Trader Joes anyone?)
Trader Joe's is much cheaper than WF. I live right between (walking distance to) each of those plus a Jewel (standard US supermarket), and the TJ is consistently cheaper in a lot of ways than the Jewel, which is of course cheaper than the WF. (There are also lots of farmers markets around throughout the summer and fall.)
I don't disagree that there's a lot of difference as to what is available in different neighborhoods, but just wanted to point out that TJ's isn't really the same as WF.
There are also Aldi's around here, and I believe that's a more inexpensive grocery, as well as various other chains, food shops of a wide variety of kinds, and ethnic markets.
One thing I think is sort of ironic is that when I go to Trader Joe's, it is rarely for the produce or the meat, rather it is for all the delicious and unusual convenience foods that are available there. Hummus, cookie butter, green chili chicken burgers, other frozen foods, etc. Now Whole Foods on the other hand, I spend most of my time (and money) on the produce, cheeses, meats, and seafood, and don't usually even look through the frozen food section.0 -
I suppose that's why Americans have developed the term "slow food" for the European style then. I do remember dinner would often take much longer and was very relaxed.It was lovely to go for a meal in the evening and have it last several hours with smaller courses. It felt much nicer than the stressful rush at restaurants here where you eat a big portion of one or two things quickly.
But of course there are a huge variety of restaurants in the US, including those where you can go and spend hours and/or get numerous smaller courses or a tasting menu and on and on. And of course we have those other restaurants too. I assume that the people who go to them do so because they meet their preferences. It's not my thing, but that's why it's nice that I can choose to go to restaurants without being rushed or having food that I don't appreciate.
Physical activity is probably a huge factor--in much of the US (although not where I live) it's hard to walk for routine errands, everything is by car.0 -
I spent some time in Europe this past summer, in Italy for a month while my husband was teaching, and then in Switzerland and Germany for work. I definitely noticed the difference in the pace of meals at restaurants, and commented about it with my German colleagues when I was with them. They said that in Europe, the meal is at the diner's pace. The diner dictates when they want to order food, whether they want to order more food, and when the bill should be presented. Whereas when they have visited the US, they have observed that they feel almost rushed out of a restaurant by a server, hounding them with questions like, Are you ready to order? Would you like dessert? Here is your check! We speculated that some of that may also be related to the fact that American servers depend primarily on tips, where tipping is much less prevalent in Europe. It behooves American servers to turn their tables faster, increasing their potential for tips.
I think a lot of this is cultural difference and the fact that for many Americans fast service is a positive, because they are eating before other activities, the meal not being the centerpiece of the evening.
Like I said above, I think it's not that hard to find a more leisurely meal in the US, but many people (my dad being one example who comes to mind) get upset if they don't get quick service or have to linger after a meal. Some years ago my sister and I traveled around Italy together and we were joking about how my dad would have been going crazy. (Actually, I hope he'd adjust when abroad, but suspect he wouldn't like the meal style.)
Edit: I think snowflake's comments above about Italy kind of go along with this. Food in that sense really isn't that important for much of the US, only in certain subcultures. And that's why it's not surprising that we have a different idea of what it should cost, tend to see value as the main consideration on average (and thus get marketing focused on size) and so on. But again it's a big and diverse country, and you can seek out other approaches too. There certainly are restaurants where they will tell you the farm the various items came from, etc. (and not only on Portlandia).0 -
I spent some time in Europe this past summer, in Italy for a month while my husband was teaching, and then in Switzerland and Germany for work. I definitely noticed the difference in the pace of meals at restaurants, and commented about it with my German colleagues when I was with them. They said that in Europe, the meal is at the diner's pace. The diner dictates when they want to order food, whether they want to order more food, and when the bill should be presented. Whereas when they have visited the US, they have observed that they feel almost rushed out of a restaurant by a server, hounding them with questions like, Are you ready to order? Would you like dessert? Here is your check! We speculated that some of that may also be related to the fact that American servers depend primarily on tips, where tipping is much less prevalent in Europe. It behooves American servers to turn their tables faster, increasing their potential for tips.
I think a lot of this is cultural difference and the fact that for many Americans fast service is a positive, because they are eating before other activities, the meal not being the centerpiece of the evening.
Like I said above, I think it's not that hard to find a more leisurely meal in the US, but many people (my dad being one example who comes to mind) get upset if they don't get quick service or have to linger after a meal. Some years ago my sister and I traveled around Italy together and we were joking about how my dad would have been going crazy. (Actually, I hope he'd adjust when abroad, but suspect he wouldn't like the meal style.)
Very true. I think Americans expect quick service. My uncle is this way... he's very demanding and I can only imagine how rude he'd seem to a server at a European restaurant. Ack!
Its interesting to see the perspectives about food from other places. We can definitely find restaurants with a slower pace and smaller portions here in the U.S., but its not something consistent or "normal". Just a different way of living life I guess.0
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