Have you seen FED UP - the documentary?
Replies
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(I also agree with you- how someone doesn't know someone who wouldn't grab a lean pocket vs a hot pocket thinking it was healthier- seriously- I know tons of people like that- its baffling)
Too bad no one claimed this. I said that I didn't know anyone who would think that a Lean Pocket was, objectively, health food, or if you prefer akin to fish and vegetables, not that I didn't know anyone who might think it was more healthy than a Hot Pocket. In fact, I specifically said that in the post that Danielle was replying to.
(This seems silly to me.)0 -
This is exactly what I'm getting at. I personally think it would be best if we could just outright stop the inaccurate messages being presented by food/diet industry people who are trying to hype and sell a product using misleading statements. However, doing so would be incredibly difficult. If people know all of the facts and still choose to purchase the product, then that's on them. Education, or at least more public discussion, could help people make more informed decisions.
Factually inaccurate ads are already illegal.
So let's focus specifically on what you are bothered about here. As I see it, it's products that are (according to you--I'm not sure how we could objectively define this given the disagreements about nutrition) unhealthy are able to promote themselves using terms that some consumers (often poorly-informed ones) understand to mean more healthy. You are particularly bothered, it seems, by the "reduced fat" or "low fat" labels. I would add as equally stupid (although they don't really bother me) labels like "gluten free" or "extra protein" as--like the "no fat" labels you used to see on dried pasta, these are often on products that don't have gluten anyway or "extra" still means very little. Also, again, some group of badly informed consumers probably do think that gluten free or low fat is always "healthier," and that's not true (unless one is celiac, of course).
But others might have legitimate reason to care about this information, so for example I don't care if yogurt is promoted as no fat. It, factually, is no fat in those cases, and while I think full fat yogurt is healthy too, 0% is not worse for everyone and some might do better saving calories in that way. So similarly, while most "diet" products don't appeal to me, if someone wants to save some calories by subbing a low fat for high calorie dressing or the like, go for it. Now obviously check the calories, but I don't know one person in the US who doesn't understand that calorie information is on packaged food, and anyone who claims otherwise is almost certainly lying and just didn't want to know. (Or so unbelievably stupid that nutrition is really the least of their problems.)
As for names like "Lean Pocket"---that is simply a statement about the comparison with Hot Pockets, not a factual claim and if it does have less (or little) fat (I don't know, I don't eat that stuff and never have), it's true. It doesn't trump common sense, especially in a population as used to marketing as ours should be by now. Certainly I think most people are reasonably cynical about it.
I'd have more issue with stuff like "heart healthy grains" which appears to be doctor certified, but even that is based on facts of a kind, and shows the difficulty of trying to have the gov't decide what's healthy and not given the arguments (plus, probably lots of the anti sugar folks like that just fine, as well as many of the muckraking documentarians). And that's even apart from the whole argument about personal responsibility and the proper role of the government.
It is inaccurate for a company to portray their product as being the answer to someone's obesity problem when it isn't.
I don't think they do this. I don't think anyone with common sense could think that a Lean Pocket is especially healthy except perhaps in comparison with a Hot Pocket. You seem to think they do this because of the name?
Just because you don't think that people believe this doesn't mean it isn't happening. I'm actually a bit confused as to how you don't know anyone who chooses "leaner" options because they think they're healthier.
They think they are lower calorie than the regular option. For example, they think skim is lower calorie than whole milk and, indeed, it is. Does that mean it's "healthy" in general? No, the Snackwells thing is probably a good example. But the only way someone thinks some item with "no fat" is low in calories when it's not is if they intentionally don't check the calories. Lots of people don't, because they don't want to know, but IME those are different people than the ones who seek out low fat items.
Are some people still scared of fat irrationally? IMO, yes, but that's not coming from the food companies.It like the thing with the fake butters that are full of trans fats. People were told that butter was bad and that they should switch to margarine. Even now that trans fats are constantly under attack, we still have people who think that the margarine is virtuous compared to the butter.
Agreed, but this wasn't from the food companies, and having a rule that you can't be misleading (which we already have) wouldn't help, because at the time the kinds of "experts" like those behind the dumb documentaries were on an anti fat feat campaign. All that's changed is that sugar has replaced fat.I really don't see why you don't think that we should educate people regarding nutrition.
I'm all in favor of education. I just think that it's ridiculous to claim that people eat high calorie, low nutrition processed food because they somehow think it's health food.I'm not saying that you can't eat as many lean pockets as your heart desires.
Not my thing, as I said before. Ugh.A great example is low fat yogurt. The commercial portrays to the consumer that choosing that yogurt over a cookie will lead to weight loss. It won't unless you control other factors. That's the point. That's where education comes in.
I don't have a clue what commercial you are thinking of or why you think it's somehow objectionable. Should it be outlawed?
If the education that you want is (a) in schools, and (b) about calories and how weight management works, I'm all for it, but the problem is that it seems impossible to agree on even basic facts. There are apparently people here who think that kids should be taught that sugar is a highly addictive demon-food that should be feared, for example, whereas others are still anti fat, and still others think grains are as bad as sugar. And yet others think that talking to kids about weight and activity is being mean and making them feel bad.
But I'm all for education and the message "eat less, move more," for that matter. I also recall learning a little about the food groups and all that in school that was consistent with the message I got from how we ate at home. It didn't actually lead to me feeling like I understood how to control my weight until I took it upon myself to learn (and then it was easy), but I'd be fine with something like that. The fundamental problem is that our cultural reinforcement is basically gone in much of the country.
Okay, I don't know how many times I can say that I don't think that particular advertisements or foods should be outlawed. I also don't think that, based on what you've said, you've watched this documentary. The food industry uses funding and lobbying to influence nutritional standards and studies that show what they want the public to believe about food.
I'm saying that we can't stop the food industry from marketing their products, and we probably can't stop them from influencing the messages we are currently receiving. What I am saying is that we, as a society, can engage in more discussion about nutritional topics. We can support educational programs and campaigns. We can produce more documentaries. We can discuss the ones already out there.
When we as a group start questioning, discussing, and advocating for more education, then we can make some headway in overcoming the obesity problem.
The yogurt ad that I'm referencing is for Yoplait Light. They do the same thing in every ad. A woman wants to lose weight. She sees a dessert that she wants to eat but is afraid that it will make her fat. She realizes that Yoplait Light is a delicious alternative to the dessert and won't make her fat. Yay for Yoplait Light.
Sure, switching out a Yoplait for that cookie you were going to eat CAN help you lose weight. However, simply making this switch without considering other calories/activity concerns is not effective.0 -
As I have stated earlier in this thread, some people lack the intelligence and critical thinking skills necessary to question what they are told by who they perceive to be an authority or expert. It might also shock you to learn that some people are bad at math and many people read at a sixth grade reading level.
These individuals still deserve the opportunity to live a long and healthy life, and as a society we should create an environment where they are exposed to a discussion that counters the misleading messages being purported by the food industry.
they make classes for these things- I'm not baby sitting people who suck at math unless I'm a teacher.
Crap- I'm an engineer for the state- I TOTALLY baby sit people who suck at math.
Regardless- they have to take personal responsibility for themselves- you're stripping them of that. And at some point they just have to pony up.
How am I stripping them of their personal responsibility? How is offering more information about nutrition, discussing nutritional topics, and countering what is currently practiced the same as taking away someone's personal responsibility. That's like saying that school itself takes away someone's responsibility for themselves because it offers them an education when they should just be out in the world figuring stuff out by themselves. I guess we could all just un-school our kids. That would work out.
You could say the same thing about any public awareness program. People in my community have trouble understanding how to access our transit services. We have people missing doctor's appointments because they can't drive and don't know how to use transit. (Our transit services are unique.) If I provide them with opportunities to participate in a transit training class, am I depriving them of their personal responsibility? If I start a website that offers information about the services and tips on how to use them, am I depriving them of the responsibility to just jump in and figure stuff out for themselves?
It's irrational to say that we should just let everyone figure things out, and that if they don't then they're just SOL.0 -
as a society we should create an environment where they are exposed to a discussion that counters the misleading messages being purported by the food industry.
Be specific: what should "we" do, how do we decide this, who pays for it?
Commercials on TV? Saying what? "This is your brain on sugar"?
People who want to believe vastly stupid stuff pretty much always find a way, and the gov't saying something else will just be seen as reason to disbelieve and congratulate themselves for not being sheeple. Hmm, I think I've even seen that on MFP.
Reread what I've already written because I've already answered this multiple times. I'm also stating here, for the last time, that I am not saying that the government should do anything and that I'm not advocating against sugar.0 -
This is exactly what I'm getting at. I personally think it would be best if we could just outright stop the inaccurate messages being presented by food/diet industry people who are trying to hype and sell a product using misleading statements. However, doing so would be incredibly difficult. If people know all of the facts and still choose to purchase the product, then that's on them. Education, or at least more public discussion, could help people make more informed decisions.
Factually inaccurate ads are already illegal.
So let's focus specifically on what you are bothered about here. As I see it, it's products that are (according to you--I'm not sure how we could objectively define this given the disagreements about nutrition) unhealthy are able to promote themselves using terms that some consumers (often poorly-informed ones) understand to mean more healthy. You are particularly bothered, it seems, by the "reduced fat" or "low fat" labels. I would add as equally stupid (although they don't really bother me) labels like "gluten free" or "extra protein" as--like the "no fat" labels you used to see on dried pasta, these are often on products that don't have gluten anyway or "extra" still means very little. Also, again, some group of badly informed consumers probably do think that gluten free or low fat is always "healthier," and that's not true (unless one is celiac, of course).
But others might have legitimate reason to care about this information, so for example I don't care if yogurt is promoted as no fat. It, factually, is no fat in those cases, and while I think full fat yogurt is healthy too, 0% is not worse for everyone and some might do better saving calories in that way. So similarly, while most "diet" products don't appeal to me, if someone wants to save some calories by subbing a low fat for high calorie dressing or the like, go for it. Now obviously check the calories, but I don't know one person in the US who doesn't understand that calorie information is on packaged food, and anyone who claims otherwise is almost certainly lying and just didn't want to know. (Or so unbelievably stupid that nutrition is really the least of their problems.)
As for names like "Lean Pocket"---that is simply a statement about the comparison with Hot Pockets, not a factual claim and if it does have less (or little) fat (I don't know, I don't eat that stuff and never have), it's true. It doesn't trump common sense, especially in a population as used to marketing as ours should be by now. Certainly I think most people are reasonably cynical about it.
I'd have more issue with stuff like "heart healthy grains" which appears to be doctor certified, but even that is based on facts of a kind, and shows the difficulty of trying to have the gov't decide what's healthy and not given the arguments (plus, probably lots of the anti sugar folks like that just fine, as well as many of the muckraking documentarians). And that's even apart from the whole argument about personal responsibility and the proper role of the government.
It is inaccurate for a company to portray their product as being the answer to someone's obesity problem when it isn't. The merits of the product are being misconstrued to make a sale. It's the same as deciding that sugar is the only culprit when it is not.
I'm not saying that the government can stop this from happening, or that we don't have personal responsibility. I'm saying that there are people who genuinely believe that these foods will solve their problems. If no one attempts to counter that message, then the problem will both continue and get worse. We have people who are taking personal responsibility but doing the wrong thing. Those people will fail, and with each failure they become more and more discouraged. The problem gets worse and worse.
bump0 -
The food industry uses funding and lobbying to influence nutritional standards and studies that show what they want the public to believe about food.
Yes, I agree with this. I don't think you are actually talking about the ways they do that, though, and there are other influences. For example, I'm inclined to agree that our food pyramid historically over-promotes grains, which is in part due to political influence, although there is a lot more to it. One of the better arguments for food producers exercising political influence has to do with meat, and yet meat is relatively disfavored, so far as I can tell. As discussed above, gov't influence has increased the price of sugar, although subsidies clearly play a role in the rise of HFCS and the fact that corn is used in everything (including the food for farmed fish). But none of this really relates to the paranoid demon sugar argument or people who are allegedly so dumb they think Lean Pockets are the equivalent of fish and veggies and should lead to perfect health and weight loss, eaten in any quantities. Those people (if they really exist) simply want an excuse to keep eating Lean Pockets. (Although beats me why; I'd pick something tastier to pretend was healthy.)I'm saying that we can't stop the food industry from marketing their products, and we probably can't stop them from influencing the messages we are currently receiving. What I am saying is that we, as a society, can engage in more discussion about nutritional topics. We can support educational programs and campaigns. We can produce more documentaries. We can discuss the ones already out there.
I refuse to support documentaries that spread misinformation and paranoia like this anti sugar thing. This is not the solution to the bad effects of the anti fat fear. It's the exact same thing yet again.
But sure, we as a society can do what we like. How we do that is express our own views about nutrition and counter false messages. That's what I'm trying to do in threads like this one.When we as a group start questioning, discussing, and advocating for more education, then we can make some headway in overcoming the obesity problem.
I think we already have an education campaign going, but as long as it is factual I'm pro education.
An educational program run by the gov't is going to be subject to the same regulatory capture as the USDA, however. If you are just saying we should express our views, how is that not what is already happening? Are you just annoyed that people are mocking the documentary for being misleading, etc., and think it should get a pass for some reason?The yogurt ad that I'm referencing is for Yoplait Light. They do the same thing in every ad. A woman wants to lose weight. She sees a dessert that she wants to eat but is afraid that it will make her fat. She realizes that Yoplait Light is a delicious alternative to the dessert and won't make her fat. Yay for Yoplait Light.
I'm not sure what your point is. As far as commercials go, this seems harmless. And while I'm fine with cookies (in moderation), I've eaten yogurt when wanting a little something instead of a cookie because (a) fewer calories, and (b) better macros for my purposes, so it's hard for me to get upset about this.Sure, switching out a Yoplait for that cookie you were going to eat CAN help you lose weight. However, simply making this switch without considering other calories/activity concerns is not effective.
Obviously not. I don't see why that's Yoplait's responsibility to tell people that, nor do I see anyone saying otherwise EXCEPT for the people (like the anti sugar ones here) who would argue that the way to lose weight is to excise the filthy cookies and other "bad" foods. Of course, they'd include yogurt in many cases.0 -
(I also agree with you- how someone doesn't know someone who wouldn't grab a lean pocket vs a hot pocket thinking it was healthier- seriously- I know tons of people like that- its baffling)
Too bad no one claimed this. I said that I didn't know anyone who would think that a Lean Pocket was, objectively, health food, or if you prefer akin to fish and vegetables, not that I didn't know anyone who might think it was more healthy than a Hot Pocket. In fact, I specifically said that in the post that Danielle was replying to.
(This seems silly to me.)
It is silly that people think this way, but they still do it. Some people genuinely think that these are health foods, partially because they are offered as the alternative to an "unhealthy" food.
I seriously don't care if everyone decides to just eat lean pockets all of the time. I don't care if every commercial has a dancing lean pocket with happy people catching them in their mouths. I simply have a problem with the fact that we do have a pervasive message in our society that switching regular foods for diet foods is the cure-all of obesity, and that if you fail it's your fault. This message serves the food companies because it maximizes profits, but it hurts us as individuals.0 -
Lets look at your example Washington DC:
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/11000.html
Median income is higher in Washington DC than other cities in america by average.
Poverty is also slightly higher in DC than other cities in america by average.
Per capita money income in past 12 months (2012 dollars), 2008-2012 DC: $45,004 USA: $28,051
Median household income, 2008-2012 DC: $64,267 USA: $53,046
Persons below poverty level, percent, 2008-2012 DC: 18.5% USA: 14.9%
Now lets look at Birmingham Alabama - America's most obese city:
Per capita money income in past 12 months (2012 dollars), 2008-2012 Birmingham: $19,615 USA: $23,587
Median household income, 2008-2012 Birmingham: $31,467 USA: $43,160
Persons below poverty level, percent, 2008-2012 Birmingham: 28.9% USA: 18.1%
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/01/0107000.html
The trouble with this comparison is it completely ignores the cost of living in these cities. It is vastly different as well.0 -
(I also agree with you- how someone doesn't know someone who wouldn't grab a lean pocket vs a hot pocket thinking it was healthier- seriously- I know tons of people like that- its baffling)
Too bad no one claimed this. I said that I didn't know anyone who would think that a Lean Pocket was, objectively, health food, or if you prefer akin to fish and vegetables, not that I didn't know anyone who might think it was more healthy than a Hot Pocket. In fact, I specifically said that in the post that Danielle was replying to.
(This seems silly to me.)
It is silly that people think this way, but they still do it. Some people genuinely think that these are health foods, partially because they are offered as the alternative to an "unhealthy" food.
I seriously don't care if everyone decides to just eat lean pockets all of the time. I don't care if every commercial has a dancing lean pocket with happy people catching them in their mouths. I simply have a problem with the fact that we do have a pervasive message in our society that switching regular foods for diet foods is the cure-all of obesity, and that if you fail it's your fault. This message serves the food companies because it maximizes profits, but it hurts us as individuals.
I know you all have beaten it to death, but I don't feel like that is a message at all. I'm not sure I know anyone who thinks that either. Ignorance isn't a free pass. If one can't take the 15 minutes to figure how much they should be eating, why is it the food manufacturers fault?0 -
Some people genuinely think that these are health foods
I do not believe this, and if they do they have no one, absolutely NO ONE, but themselves and their own wishful thinking to blame.I simply have a problem with the fact that we do have a pervasive message in our society that switching regular foods for diet foods is the cure-all of obesity, and that if you fail it's your fault.
We do not have "a societal message" to that effect. Some people think that's the easier path, that's all. That's their responsibility.
It's also a different issue than responsibility for failure. I think there are lots of reasons why losing weight can be hard, but learning about how to eat lower calorie meals, how weight loss works, or what's a nutritious balanced meal all seem extremely easy to me. The problem is that lots of people don't want to do what it requires.0 -
This message serves the food companies because it maximizes profits, but it hurts us as individuals.
their a business- their entire existence is to maximize profits.0 -
The food industry uses funding and lobbying to influence nutritional standards and studies that show what they want the public to believe about food.
Yes, I agree with this. I don't think you are actually talking about the ways they do that, though, and there are other influences. For example, I'm inclined to agree that our food pyramid historically over-promotes grains, which is in part due to political influence, although there is a lot more to it. One of the better arguments for food producers exercising political influence has to do with meat, and yet meat is relatively disfavored, so far as I can tell. As discussed above, gov't influence has increased the price of sugar, although subsidies clearly play a role in the rise of HFCS and the fact that corn is used in everything (including the food for farmed fish). But none of this really relates to the paranoid demon sugar argument or people who are allegedly so dumb they think Lean Pockets are the equivalent of fish and veggies and should lead to perfect health and weight loss, eaten in any quantities. Those people (if they really exist) simply want an excuse to keep eating Lean Pockets. (Although beats me why; I'd pick something tastier to pretend was healthy.)I'm saying that we can't stop the food industry from marketing their products, and we probably can't stop them from influencing the messages we are currently receiving. What I am saying is that we, as a society, can engage in more discussion about nutritional topics. We can support educational programs and campaigns. We can produce more documentaries. We can discuss the ones already out there.
I refuse to support documentaries that spread misinformation and paranoia like this anti sugar thing. This is not the solution to the bad effects of the anti fat fear. It's the exact same thing yet again.
But sure, we as a society can do what we like. How we do that is express our own views about nutrition and counter false messages. That's what I'm trying to do in threads like this one.When we as a group start questioning, discussing, and advocating for more education, then we can make some headway in overcoming the obesity problem.
I think we already have an education campaign going, but as long as it is factual I'm pro education.
An educational program run by the gov't is going to be subject to the same regulatory capture as the USDA, however. If you are just saying we should express our views, how is that not what is already happening? Are you just annoyed that people are mocking the documentary for being misleading, etc., and think it should get a pass for some reason?The yogurt ad that I'm referencing is for Yoplait Light. They do the same thing in every ad. A woman wants to lose weight. She sees a dessert that she wants to eat but is afraid that it will make her fat. She realizes that Yoplait Light is a delicious alternative to the dessert and won't make her fat. Yay for Yoplait Light.
I'm not sure what your point is. As far as commercials go, this seems harmless. And while I'm fine with cookies (in moderation), I've eaten yogurt when wanting a little something instead of a cookie because (a) fewer calories, and (b) better macros for my purposes, so it's hard for me to get upset about this.Sure, switching out a Yoplait for that cookie you were going to eat CAN help you lose weight. However, simply making this switch without considering other calories/activity concerns is not effective.
Obviously not. I don't see why that's Yoplait's responsibility to tell people that, nor do I see anyone saying otherwise EXCEPT for the people (like the anti sugar ones here) who would argue that the way to lose weight is to excise the filthy cookies and other "bad" foods. Of course, they'd include yogurt in many cases.
You don't have to support the documentary. I said that we should discuss these issues in a public manner. Of course, you have to watch it first. I've explained over and over that I don't agree with the conclusions expressed in this film. Sugar is not the sole culprit.
With regard to the Yoplait ad, I was using that as an example of how a food company portrays to the public that their food is "healthy" and will help you lose weight if you switch to it. It portrays to the viewer that simply choosing this product over another product will result in weight loss. Of course it's Yoplait's MO to sell more yogurt. I never said it's their responsibility to tell people how to eat a balanced diet, etc. I've also stated that I don't think that the commercials should be outlawed. However, these types of commercials - and other companies use them as well - contribute to people believing that a lean pocket is a healthy choice because it's better than a hot pocket.0 -
This message serves the food companies because it maximizes profits, but it hurts us as individuals.
their a business- their entire existence is to maximize profits.
Exactly.
That is exactly my point. Thank you for agreeing with me.
That's why we need more public discussion and education to counter the messages that the industry uses to sell their products.0 -
(I also agree with you- how someone doesn't know someone who wouldn't grab a lean pocket vs a hot pocket thinking it was healthier- seriously- I know tons of people like that- its baffling)
Too bad no one claimed this. I said that I didn't know anyone who would think that a Lean Pocket was, objectively, health food, or if you prefer akin to fish and vegetables, not that I didn't know anyone who might think it was more healthy than a Hot Pocket. In fact, I specifically said that in the post that Danielle was replying to.
(This seems silly to me.)
It is silly that people think this way, but they still do it. Some people genuinely think that these are health foods, partially because they are offered as the alternative to an "unhealthy" food.
I seriously don't care if everyone decides to just eat lean pockets all of the time. I don't care if every commercial has a dancing lean pocket with happy people catching them in their mouths. I simply have a problem with the fact that we do have a pervasive message in our society that switching regular foods for diet foods is the cure-all of obesity, and that if you fail it's your fault. This message serves the food companies because it maximizes profits, but it hurts us as individuals.
I know you all have beaten it to death, but I don't feel like that is a message at all. I'm not sure I know anyone who thinks that either. Ignorance isn't a free pass. If one can't take the 15 minutes to figure how much they should be eating, why is it the food manufacturers fault?
I don't think that food manufacturers should be expected to do anything other than market their product. Sure, it would be great if they would stop paying for misleading ads/studies/government regulations/etc, but I'm not even going that far. What I am saying is that we should discuss/educate.
I think that all of you are projecting other arguments onto me because all of the people who want to burn the sugar industry to the ground left the thread.
BTW, the reason the lean pocket thing keeps coming up is because it is a direct reference to this particular documentary. There is a woman who tries to help her son lose weight. She switches out his hot pockets for lean pockets and seriously thinks that it's the "healthy" alternative.
Also, wouldn't it be great if the discussion we're having right now were happening on a larger stage where more people could be exposed to it and participate? That's what I'm saying.0 -
(I also agree with you- how someone doesn't know someone who wouldn't grab a lean pocket vs a hot pocket thinking it was healthier- seriously- I know tons of people like that- its baffling)
Too bad no one claimed this. I said that I didn't know anyone who would think that a Lean Pocket was, objectively, health food, or if you prefer akin to fish and vegetables, not that I didn't know anyone who might think it was more healthy than a Hot Pocket. In fact, I specifically said that in the post that Danielle was replying to.
(This seems silly to me.)
It is silly that people think this way, but they still do it. Some people genuinely think that these are health foods, partially because they are offered as the alternative to an "unhealthy" food.
I seriously don't care if everyone decides to just eat lean pockets all of the time. I don't care if every commercial has a dancing lean pocket with happy people catching them in their mouths. I simply have a problem with the fact that we do have a pervasive message in our society that switching regular foods for diet foods is the cure-all of obesity, and that if you fail it's your fault. This message serves the food companies because it maximizes profits, but it hurts us as individuals.
I know you all have beaten it to death, but I don't feel like that is a message at all. I'm not sure I know anyone who thinks that either. Ignorance isn't a free pass. If one can't take the 15 minutes to figure how much they should be eating, why is it the food manufacturers fault?
I don't think that food manufacturers should be expected to do anything other than market their product. Sure, it would be great if they would stop paying for misleading ads/studies/government regulations/etc, but I'm not even going that far. What I am saying is that we should discuss/educate.
I think that all of you are projecting other arguments onto me because all of the people who want to burn the sugar industry to the ground left the thread.
BTW, the reason the lean pocket thing keeps coming up is because it is a direct reference to this particular documentary. There is a woman who tries to help her son lose weight. She switches out his hot pockets for lean pockets and seriously thinks that it's the "healthy" alternative.
Also, wouldn't it be great if the discussion we're having right now were happening on a larger stage where more people could be exposed to it and participate? That's what I'm saying.
Okay...so I agree with you...lol. There was a lot to follow in this thread and maybe I misinterpreted the points you were getting at.
But in reality, switching the son out to lean pockets will help him lose weight if all things remain the same. They are less calories after all.0 -
This message serves the food companies because it maximizes profits, but it hurts us as individuals.
their a business- their entire existence is to maximize profits.
Exactly.
That is exactly my point. Thank you for agreeing with me.
That's why we need more public discussion and education to counter the messages that the industry uses to sell their products.
ah- see this is why this was an issue- that was not the point I felt you were making.
LOL... sometimes discussion CAN lead to new things!!! LOL
so we agree on that at least! win!0 -
As I have stated earlier in this thread, some people lack the intelligence and critical thinking skills necessary to question what they are told by someone whom they perceive to be an authority or expert. It might also shock you to learn that some people are bad at math and many people read at a sixth grade reading level.
These individuals still deserve the opportunity to live a long and healthy life, and as a society we should create an environment where they are exposed to a discussion that counters the misleading messages being purported by the food industry.
Do yourself a huge favor, before you think you understand someone and their needs maybe ask how they make a veggie omelet if they do not have a heat source(stove) to make it. A poor person has more immediate needs then their nutrition in the day in and day out.0 -
(I also agree with you- how someone doesn't know someone who wouldn't grab a lean pocket vs a hot pocket thinking it was healthier- seriously- I know tons of people like that- its baffling)
Too bad no one claimed this. I said that I didn't know anyone who would think that a Lean Pocket was, objectively, health food, or if you prefer akin to fish and vegetables, not that I didn't know anyone who might think it was more healthy than a Hot Pocket. In fact, I specifically said that in the post that Danielle was replying to.
(This seems silly to me.)
It is silly that people think this way, but they still do it. Some people genuinely think that these are health foods, partially because they are offered as the alternative to an "unhealthy" food.
I seriously don't care if everyone decides to just eat lean pockets all of the time. I don't care if every commercial has a dancing lean pocket with happy people catching them in their mouths. I simply have a problem with the fact that we do have a pervasive message in our society that switching regular foods for diet foods is the cure-all of obesity, and that if you fail it's your fault. This message serves the food companies because it maximizes profits, but it hurts us as individuals.
I know you all have beaten it to death, but I don't feel like that is a message at all. I'm not sure I know anyone who thinks that either. Ignorance isn't a free pass. If one can't take the 15 minutes to figure how much they should be eating, why is it the food manufacturers fault?
I don't think that food manufacturers should be expected to do anything other than market their product. Sure, it would be great if they would stop paying for misleading ads/studies/government regulations/etc, but I'm not even going that far. What I am saying is that we should discuss/educate.
I think that all of you are projecting other arguments onto me because all of the people who want to burn the sugar industry to the ground left the thread.
BTW, the reason the lean pocket thing keeps coming up is because it is a direct reference to this particular documentary. There is a woman who tries to help her son lose weight. She switches out his hot pockets for lean pockets and seriously thinks that it's the "healthy" alternative.
Also, wouldn't it be great if the discussion we're having right now were happening on a larger stage where more people could be exposed to it and participate? That's what I'm saying.
Okay...so I agree with you...lol. There was a lot to follow in this thread and maybe I misinterpreted the points you were getting at.
But in reality, switching the son out to lean pockets will help him lose weight if all things remain the same. They are less calories after all.
That's what the lean pockets want you to think.
She did this with all of his food, and the boy actually gained weight. He needs a tool like MFP to help him track his intake and activity. Unfortunately, his mom thought that what she was doing was the right thing. Without someone educating her or at least exposing her to other opinions on the subject, she and her son will continue to make these types of misguided choices. It's sad. 0 -
I think the problem with educating "Society" about health issues is illustrated here on MFP forums every day! Someone asks if anyone knows a good cleanse because they want to lose 20 lbs fast. And they get lots of responses explaining BMR and healthy weight loss rates and meal suggestions. And then one person replies with a suggestion that they probably have a metabolic condition and should stop eating carbs and that is the post they decide to thank and announce they will be trying.
People are lazy. The info is out there if they really want it. I personally know plenty of people who ask me how I stay "so slim" and when I tell them about this place, they glaze over and wander away. They would rather complain that it is too difficult and too expensive to eat healthy so they can feel better about the choices they make. They spend hours watching TV and playing video games, but are too busy to cook whole foods or educate themselves.
I know that probably sounds really cynical, but this my personal experience. I wish everyone was as committed to learning as those of us here are, but "ignorance is bliss" is a cliché for a reason. I wish I knew what the answer was, but I don't. I just try to be a good resource for the people around me and maybe some day it will spread???0 -
This message serves the food companies because it maximizes profits, but it hurts us as individuals.
their a business- their entire existence is to maximize profits.
Exactly.
That is exactly my point. Thank you for agreeing with me.
That's why we need more public discussion and education to counter the messages that the industry uses to sell their products.
ah- see this is why this was an issue- that was not the point I felt you were making.
LOL... sometimes discussion CAN lead to new things!!! LOL
so we agree on that at least! win!
OMG! Yay.
On a side note, I think that someone is going to post that gif of the guy beating the dead horse any minute now. Lol.0 -
I think the problem with educating "Society" about health issues is illustrated here on MFP forums every day! Someone asks if anyone knows a good cleanse because they want to lose 20 lbs fast. And they get lots of responses explaining BMR and healthy weight loss rates and meal suggestions. And then one person replies with a suggestion that they probably have a metabolic condition and should stop eating carbs and that is the post they decide to thank and announce they will be trying.
People are lazy. The info is out there if they really want it. I personally know plenty of people who ask me how I stay "so slim" and when I tell them about this place, they glaze over and wander away. They would rather complain that it is too difficult and too expensive to eat healthy so they can feel better about the choices they make. They spend hours watching TV and playing video games, but are too busy to cook whole foods or educate themselves.
I know that probably sounds really cynical, but this my personal experience. I wish everyone was as committed to learning as those of us here are, but "ignorance is bliss" is a cliché for a reason. I wish I knew what the answer was, but I don't. I just try to be a good resource for the people around me and maybe some day it will spread???
I don't think that we need to tell people how to live. It's about opening up a greater discussion and attempting to provide better nutritional education. The forums here are great. If someone decides to go ahead with a cleanse even though they've been provided information about why it's not a great idea, then that's their business.
We don't all have to give up the same foods, eat the same diet, do the same exercise, etc. It's not about convincing people that there is a specific way to eat and live (because there isn't). It's about offering people different viewpoints that can help them understand that what is not working for them is not the only way. For that, we need more discussion/education.0 -
Between 1820 and 1930, US sugar consumption increased 10-fold. 10 fold! During that time, life expectancy at birth nearly doubled, from around 35 to over 60.
Sugar FTW!
And I suppose modern sanitation, and the availability of adequate amounts of food, accounts for no part of that? Or modern medicine? I realize that you are (hopefully) joking but even as a joke, it is a bit lame.0 -
As I have stated earlier in this thread, some people lack the intelligence and critical thinking skills necessary to question what they are told by someone whom they perceive to be an authority or expert. It might also shock you to learn that some people are bad at math and many people read at a sixth grade reading level.
These individuals still deserve the opportunity to live a long and healthy life, and as a society we should create an environment where they are exposed to a discussion that counters the misleading messages being purported by the food industry.
Do yourself a huge favor, before you think you understand someone and their needs maybe ask how they make a veggie omelet if they do not have a heat source(stove) to make it. A poor person has more immediate needs then their nutrition in the day in and day out.
This is a random addition to the discussion.
To be clear, I don't think that everyone should or needs to eat veggie omelets to be healthy. I'm also not saying that we should teach people to eat them or how to make them.
It's also not about poor people or rich people. The fact that a person has a low income does not mean that he/she has poor critical thinking skills. There are many reasons that someone could have a low income. At the same time, higher income individuals are not necessarily more intelligent.0 -
Between 1820 and 1930, US sugar consumption increased 10-fold. 10 fold! During that time, life expectancy at birth nearly doubled, from around 35 to over 60.
Sugar FTW!
And I suppose modern sanitation, and the availability of adequate amounts of food, accounts for no part of that? Or modern medicine? I realize that you are (hopefully) joking but even as a joke, it is a bit lame.
I feel like we all needed the joke. :drinker:0 -
I don't watch any food related television anymore. I achieved Nirvana this way.0
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I think the problem with educating "Society" about health issues is illustrated here on MFP forums every day! Someone asks if anyone knows a good cleanse because they want to lose 20 lbs fast. And they get lots of responses explaining BMR and healthy weight loss rates and meal suggestions. And then one person replies with a suggestion that they probably have a metabolic condition and should stop eating carbs and that is the post they decide to thank and announce they will be trying.
People are lazy. The info is out there if they really want it. I personally know plenty of people who ask me how I stay "so slim" and when I tell them about this place, they glaze over and wander away. They would rather complain that it is too difficult and too expensive to eat healthy so they can feel better about the choices they make. They spend hours watching TV and playing video games, but are too busy to cook whole foods or educate themselves.
I know that probably sounds really cynical, but this my personal experience. I wish everyone was as committed to learning as those of us here are, but "ignorance is bliss" is a cliché for a reason. I wish I knew what the answer was, but I don't. I just try to be a good resource for the people around me and maybe some day it will spread???
I don't think that we need to tell people how to live. It's about opening up a greater discussion and attempting to provide better nutritional education. The forums here are great. If someone decides to go ahead with a cleanse even though they've been provided information about why it's not a great idea, then that's their business.
We don't all have to give up the same foods, eat the same diet, do the same exercise, etc. It's not about convincing people that there is a specific way to eat and live (because there isn't). It's about offering people different viewpoints that can help them understand that what is not working for them is not the only way. For that, we need more discussion/education.
ITA with pretty much everything you just said. I just think the discussion is already out there and most people choose to ignore it. Maybe we need more GIFs!!!0 -
This is exactly what I'm getting at. I personally think it would be best if we could just outright stop the inaccurate messages being presented by food/diet industry people who are trying to hype and sell a product using misleading statements. However, doing so would be incredibly difficult. If people know all of the facts and still choose to purchase the product, then that's on them. Education, or at least more public discussion, could help people make more informed decisions.
Factually inaccurate ads are already illegal.
So let's focus specifically on what you are bothered about here. As I see it, it's products that are (according to you--I'm not sure how we could objectively define this given the disagreements about nutrition) unhealthy are able to promote themselves using terms that some consumers (often poorly-informed ones) understand to mean more healthy. You are particularly bothered, it seems, by the "reduced fat" or "low fat" labels. I would add as equally stupid (although they don't really bother me) labels like "gluten free" or "extra protein" as--like the "no fat" labels you used to see on dried pasta, these are often on products that don't have gluten anyway or "extra" still means very little. Also, again, some group of badly informed consumers probably do think that gluten free or low fat is always "healthier," and that's not true (unless one is celiac, of course).
But others might have legitimate reason to care about this information, so for example I don't care if yogurt is promoted as no fat. It, factually, is no fat in those cases, and while I think full fat yogurt is healthy too, 0% is not worse for everyone and some might do better saving calories in that way. So similarly, while most "diet" products don't appeal to me, if someone wants to save some calories by subbing a low fat for high calorie dressing or the like, go for it. Now obviously check the calories, but I don't know one person in the US who doesn't understand that calorie information is on packaged food, and anyone who claims otherwise is almost certainly lying and just didn't want to know. (Or so unbelievably stupid that nutrition is really the least of their problems.)
As for names like "Lean Pocket"---that is simply a statement about the comparison with Hot Pockets, not a factual claim and if it does have less (or little) fat (I don't know, I don't eat that stuff and never have), it's true. It doesn't trump common sense, especially in a population as used to marketing as ours should be by now. Certainly I think most people are reasonably cynical about it.
I'd have more issue with stuff like "heart healthy grains" which appears to be doctor certified, but even that is based on facts of a kind, and shows the difficulty of trying to have the gov't decide what's healthy and not given the arguments (plus, probably lots of the anti sugar folks like that just fine, as well as many of the muckraking documentarians). And that's even apart from the whole argument about personal responsibility and the proper role of the government.
It is inaccurate for a company to portray their product as being the answer to someone's obesity problem when it isn't.
I don't think they do this. I don't think anyone with common sense could think that a Lean Pocket is especially healthy except perhaps in comparison with a Hot Pocket. You seem to think they do this because of the name?
Just because you don't think that people believe this doesn't mean it isn't happening. I'm actually a bit confused as to how you don't know anyone who chooses "leaner" options because they think they're healthier. It like the thing with the fake butters that are full of trans fats. People were told that butter was bad and that they should switch to margarine. Even now that trans fats are constantly under attack, we still have people who think that the margarine is virtuous compared to the butter.
I really don't see why you don't think that we should educate people regarding nutrition. I'm not saying that you can't eat as many lean pockets as your heart desires. I'm not saying that Nabisco can't advertise Oreos. I'm saying that there is a pervasive message in our society that making the choice to eat the lighter option is the solution to obesity, and it's incorrect. That message is put out there by the people who make those lighter options so that people who don't want to eat the regular version will still make a purchase.
A great example is low fat yogurt. The commercial portrays to the consumer that choosing that yogurt over a cookie will lead to weight loss. It won't unless you control other factors. That's the point. That's where education comes in.
There's actually about 8 teaspoons of sugar in a serving-sized container of the cheaper brands of "0-fat" yogurt. That would actually be a lot more sugar than the typical serving of cookies (4 teaspoons)--and in the cookie at least, there is the fat and potentially nuts to slow down the transmission of the sugars into the bloodstream. Some kind of nice low-sugar, nutty cookies and a glass of milk would actually be a much better snack than "0-fat" yogurt.0 -
I really want to see this. I love nutrition documentaries!0
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I think the problem with educating "Society" about health issues is illustrated here on MFP forums every day! Someone asks if anyone knows a good cleanse because they want to lose 20 lbs fast. And they get lots of responses explaining BMR and healthy weight loss rates and meal suggestions. And then one person replies with a suggestion that they probably have a metabolic condition and should stop eating carbs and that is the post they decide to thank and announce they will be trying.
People are lazy. The info is out there if they really want it. I personally know plenty of people who ask me how I stay "so slim" and when I tell them about this place, they glaze over and wander away. They would rather complain that it is too difficult and too expensive to eat healthy so they can feel better about the choices they make. They spend hours watching TV and playing video games, but are too busy to cook whole foods or educate themselves.
I know that probably sounds really cynical, but this my personal experience. I wish everyone was as committed to learning as those of us here are, but "ignorance is bliss" is a cliché for a reason. I wish I knew what the answer was, but I don't. I just try to be a good resource for the people around me and maybe some day it will spread???
I don't think that we need to tell people how to live. It's about opening up a greater discussion and attempting to provide better nutritional education. The forums here are great. If someone decides to go ahead with a cleanse even though they've been provided information about why it's not a great idea, then that's their business.
We don't all have to give up the same foods, eat the same diet, do the same exercise, etc. It's not about convincing people that there is a specific way to eat and live (because there isn't). It's about offering people different viewpoints that can help them understand that what is not working for them is not the only way. For that, we need more discussion/education.
ITA with pretty much everything you just said. I just think the discussion is already out there and most people choose to ignore it. Maybe we need more GIFs!!!
Nah--the moderators recently shut down a thread because people were throwing a lot of GIFs on an OP.0 -
I think the problem with educating "Society" about health issues is illustrated here on MFP forums every day! Someone asks if anyone knows a good cleanse because they want to lose 20 lbs fast. And they get lots of responses explaining BMR and healthy weight loss rates and meal suggestions. And then one person replies with a suggestion that they probably have a metabolic condition and should stop eating carbs and that is the post they decide to thank and announce they will be trying.
People are lazy. The info is out there if they really want it. I personally know plenty of people who ask me how I stay "so slim" and when I tell them about this place, they glaze over and wander away. They would rather complain that it is too difficult and too expensive to eat healthy so they can feel better about the choices they make. They spend hours watching TV and playing video games, but are too busy to cook whole foods or educate themselves.
I know that probably sounds really cynical, but this my personal experience. I wish everyone was as committed to learning as those of us here are, but "ignorance is bliss" is a cliché for a reason. I wish I knew what the answer was, but I don't. I just try to be a good resource for the people around me and maybe some day it will spread???
I don't think that we need to tell people how to live. It's about opening up a greater discussion and attempting to provide better nutritional education. The forums here are great. If someone decides to go ahead with a cleanse even though they've been provided information about why it's not a great idea, then that's their business.
We don't all have to give up the same foods, eat the same diet, do the same exercise, etc. It's not about convincing people that there is a specific way to eat and live (because there isn't). It's about offering people different viewpoints that can help them understand that what is not working for them is not the only way. For that, we need more discussion/education.
ITA with pretty much everything you just said. I just think the discussion is already out there and most people choose to ignore it. Maybe we need more GIFs!!!
Cat GFIs? We could do a whole series where we help a really fat cat eat a more balanced diet.0
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