Don't believe in "Starvation Mode"?
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shaunshaikh, has pulled together a lot of good links on this. Would it be possible to get this thread stickied? Maybe slow down the volume of new posts about this subject.0
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phynx,
Think of the ratio in your body between fat and non-fat tissue as you lose weight. The science of your weight loss changes when you get to that last 10-20 pounds.0 -
I found the studies and edited my OP to link them. You can browse them at your leisure.Take 5 seconds and do a MFP search for "starvation mode gain weight".
"Thwart their weight loss"? You mean gain weight? Or do you mean "stop losing weight"? Maybe you mean "lose weight less quickly than if they ate more calories? Or do you mean, the rate of weight loss gradually becomes less significant the more calories you cut? You are being very unclear.
I mean your weight loss slows down or stops, even though theoretically you should be losing 1-2 pounds per week. You know what I mean.0 -
This is so true. Thanks for sharing.0
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It's funny because already stickied are posts that say that Starvation Mode is when you restrict calories to much, you start gaining weight!
The sticky is "LINKS in MFP you want to read again (and again)"
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/777-why-is-starvation-mode-so-bad
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/3047-700-calories-a-day-and-not-losing
The amount of uneducated hearsay in those threads makes me want to pound my face against a wall.0 -
Educate us then Kev. Show us the superfluous amount of studies that show us otherwise. We are all waiting with baited breathe. So far, not ONE single person on this website has been able to present an opposite view point with a researched and audited study. All we have been met with is skepticism and personal ancedotes.0
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It's funny because already stickied are posts that say that Starvation Mode is when you restrict calories to much, you start gaining weight!
The sticky is "LINKS in MFP you want to read again (and again)"
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/777-why-is-starvation-mode-so-bad
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/3047-700-calories-a-day-and-not-losing
The amount of uneducated hearsay in those threads makes me want to pound my face against a wall.
DITTO. Everyone that owns a camera is a photographer. If you know what I'm saying...0 -
Educate us then Kev. Show us the superfluous amount of studies that show us otherwise. We are all waiting with baited breathe. So far, not ONE single person on this website has been able to present an opposite view point with a researched and audited study. All we have been met with is skepticism and personal ancedotes.
Actually I did. Twice. I was ignored both times. Most people don't want to be proven wrong though.0 -
I eat back most of my exercise calories to lose. My husband doesn't and he still loses. If he eats them back he doesn't lose. It's a strange thing! I don't know if it's different between all men & women or just different for people in general.0
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I feel compelled to post this article by Tom Venuto once more:
IS STARVATION MODE A MYTH? NO! STARVATION MODE IS VERY REAL AND HERE’S THE SCIENTIFIC PROOF
QUESTION:
Tom, I was wondering if you had seen the 6 part e-mail series sent out by [name deleted] from [website deleted]. if you look at the last part, he basically states that “starvation mode” is a bunch of crap made up in order to sell diet programs. He didn’t mention you, but it almost sounds like he’s talking about you specifically. How do you feel about this?
ANSWER:
I’m afraid the person who wrote that article is mistaken about starvation mode. Not only does his article contain technical errors, but anyone who sees what kind of products he promotes will realize where all his biases come from if you simply read between the lines a little bit. The pot calls the kettle black.
He accuses those of us who use the term “starvation mode” as being unscientific and he even says “dont buy diet books if they mention the starvation mode.” Yet in a moment, it will become clear that he is the one who doesn’t appear very well read in the scientific literature on the effects of starvation and low calorie diets.
The effects of starvation mode are indeed sometimes overblown and there are myths about the starvation mode, like it will completely “shut down” your metabolism (can’t happen - you’d be dead if your metabolism stopped), or that if you miss one meal your metabolism will crash (doesn’t happen that fast, although your blood sugar and energy levels may dip and hunger may rise).
Another myth about starvation mode is that adaptive reduction in metabolic rate (where metabolism slows down in response to decrease calorie intake) is enough to cause a plateau. That is also not true. it will cause a SLOW DOWN in progress but not a total cessation of fat loss.
As a result of these myths, I have even clarified and refined my own messages about starvation mode in the past few years because I don’t want to see people panic merely because they miss a meal or they’re using an aggressive caloric deficit at times. I find that people tend to worry about this far too much.
However, starvation response is real, it is extremely well documented and is not just a metabolic adaptation - it is also a series of changes in the brain, mediated by the hypothalamus as well as hormonal changes which induce food seeking behaviors.
Here is just a handful of the research and the explanations that I have handy:
Ancel Key’s Minnesota starvation study is the classic work in this area, which dates back to 1950 and is still referenced to this day. In this study, there was a 40% decrease in metabolism due to 6 months of “semi-starvation” at 50% deficit.
Much or most of the decrease was due to loss of body mass, (which was much more pronounced because the subjects were not weight training), but not all of the metabolic decline could be explained simply by the loss of body weight, thus “metabolic adaptation” to starvation was proposed as the explanation for the difference.
Abdul Dulloo of the University of Geneva did a series of studies that revisited the 1300 pages of data that keys collected from this landmark study, which will not ever be repeated due to ethical considerations. (it’s not easy to do longitudinal studies that starve people, as you can imagine)
Here’s one of those follow up studies:
“Adaptive reduction in basal metabolic rate in response to food deprivation in humans: a role for feedback signals from fat stores. Dulloo, Jaquet 1998. American journal of clinical nutrition.
Quote:
“It is well established from longitudinal studies of human starvation and semistarvation that weight loss is accompanied by a decrease in basal metabolicrate (BMR) greater than can be accounted for by the change in body weight or body composition”
“the survival value of such an energy-regulatory process that limits tissue depletion during food scarcity is obvious.”
Also, starvation mode is a series of intense food seeking behaviors and other psychological symptoms and if you do any research on the minnesota study and other more recent studies, you will find out that starvation mode as a spontaneous increase in food seeking behavior is very, very real.
Do you think sex is the most primal urge? Think again! Hunger is the most primal of all human urges and when starved, interest in everything else including reproduction, falls by the wayside until you have been re-fed.
There are even changes in the reproductive system linked to starvation mode: It makes total sense too because if you cannot feed yourself, how can you have offspring and feed them - when you starve and or when body fat drops to extremely low levels, testosterone decreases in men, and menstrual cycle stops in women.
Starvation mode is not just adaptive reduction metabolic rate - it is much more.
There IS a controversy over how much of the decrease in metabolism with weight loss is caused by starvation mode, but the case is extremely strong:
For example, this study DIRECTLY addresses the controversy over HOW MUCH of a decrease in metabolism really occurs with starvation due to adaptive thermogenesis and how much is very simply due to a loss in total body mass.
Doucet, et al 2001. British journal of nutrition. “Evidence for the existence of adaptive thermogenesis during weight loss.”
quote:
“It should be expected that the decrease in resting energy expenditure that occurs during weightloss would be proportional to the decrease in body substance. However, in the case of underfeeding studies, acute energy restriction can also lead to reductions in resting energy expenditure which are not entirely explained by changes in body composition.”
Starvation response is even a scientific term that is used in obesity science textbooks - word for word - CONTRARY to the claim made by the expert mentioned earlier who thinks the phrase, starvation mode is “unscientific.”
Handbook of Obesity Treatment, by wadden and stunkard
(two of the top obesity scientists and researchers in the world )
quote:
“The starvation response - which is an increase in food seeking behavior - is most likely mediated by the decrease in leptin associated with caloric deprivation.”
Textbooks on nutritional biochemistry also acknowledge the decrease in metabolism and distinguish it as an adaptive mechanism, distinct from the decrease in energy expenditure that would be expected with weight loss. In this case, the author also mentions another downside of very low calorie diets: spontaneous reduction in physical activity.
Biochemical And Physiological Aspects of Human Nutrition by SM. Stipanauk, professor of nutritional sciences, Cornell University (WB Saunders company, 2000)
Quote:
“During food restriction, thermic effect of food and energy expenditure decrease, as would be expected from reduced food intake and a reduction in total body mass. Resting metabolic rate, however declines more rapidly than would be expected from the loss of body mass and from the decline in spontaneous physical activity due to general fatigue.
This adaptive reduction in resting metabolic rate may be a defense against further loss of body energy stores.”
Granted, it is more often referred to as “metabolic adaptation” or “adaptive reduction in metabolic rate.” However, starvation mode and starvation response are both terms found in the scientific literature, and they are more easily understood by the layperson, which is why I choose to use them.
Another effect of starvation mode is what happens after the diet: A sustained increase in appetite and a sustained reduction of metabolic rate that persists after the diet is over. Although controversial, this too is documented in the literature:
American Journal clinical nutrition 1997. Dulloo “post starvation hyperphagia and body fat overshooting in humans.”
American Journal Clin Nutrition 1989, Elliot et al. “Sustained depression of the resting metabolic rate after massive weight loss”
quote:
“Resting metabolic rate of our obese subjects remained depressed after massive weight loss despite increased caloric consumption to a level that allowed body weight stabilization.”
and Dulloo 1998:
“The reduction in thermogenesis during semistarvation persists after 12 weeks of restricted refeeding, with its size being inversely proportional to the degree of fat recovery but unrelated to the degree of fat free mass recovery.”
By the way, this explains what some people refer to as “metabolic damage” and although this is not a scientific phrase, you can see that it too is a reality. It is the lag time between when a diet ends and when your metabolism and appetite regulating mechanisms get back to normal.
Last, but certainly not least, and perhaps the best indicator of starvation mode is the hormone LEPTIN. you could spend weeks studying leptin and still not cover all the data that has been amassed on this subject.
Leptin IS the anti starvation hormone. Some people say leptin IS the starvation mode itself because it regulates many of the negative effects that occur during starvation.
leptin is secreted mostly from fat cells and it signals your brain about your fat stores. If your fat stores diminish (danger of starvation), your leptin decreases. If your calorie intake decreases, your leptin level decreases.
When leptin decreases, it essentially sounds the starvation alarm. In response, your brain (hypothalamus) sends out signals for other hormones to be released which decrease metabolic rate and increase appetite.
In summary and conclusion:
There is no debate whatsoever about the existence of starvation mode - IT EXISTS and is well documented.
There is also no debate whatsoever that metabolic rate decreases with weight loss. It happens and is well documented, and it is a reason for plateuas.
There’s really only ONE debate about starvation mode that is — HOW MUCH of the starvation mode is comprised of adaptive reduction in metabolic rate and how much is due to loss of total body mass and increased feeding behaviors?
Researchers are still debating these questions, in fact just earlier this year another study was releasd by Major and Doucet in the international journal of obesity called, “clinical significance of adaptive thermogenesis.”
Here’s a quote from this latest (2007) study:
“Adaptive thermogenesis is described as the decrease in energy expenditure beyond what could be predicted from the changes in fat mass or fat free mass under conditions of standardized physical activity in response to a decreased energy intake, and could represent in some individuals another factor that impedes weight loss and compromises the maintenance of a reduced body weight.”
I respect the work that other fitness professionals are trying to do to debunk diet and fitness myths, but this fellow didn’t seem to do his homework and totally missed the boat on this article about starvation mode.
What’s really odd is that he didn’t quote a single study in his article, despite his repeated reference to “scientific research.”
If he wanted to argue against adaptive reduction in metabolic rate and chalk starvation mode up purely to increase in food seeking behaviors… and if he wanted to attribute the decreased metabolism with weight loss purely to lost body mass, he easily could have done that. But he didn’t cite ANY studies. He just expects us to take his word for it that “starvation mode is a myth,” and people like me who use the phrase starvation mode are “unscientific”
Either way you argue it - and whatever you choose to call it - “starvation response” is a scientific fact and that’s why low calorie diets are risky business and mostly just quick fixes.
The rapid weight loss in the beginning is an illusion: Starvation diets catch up with you eventually… just like other habits such as smoking appear to do no harm at first, but sooner or later the damage is done.
For years I’ve considered it so important to understand the consequences of starvation diets that my entire burn the fat program is built around helping you recover from metabolic damage from past diet mistakes, to avoid the starvation mode, or to at least keep the effects of the starvation mode to a minimum so you can lose the fat and keep the muscle.
Sincerely,
Your friend and “Burn The fat coach”
Tom Venuto, CSCS, NSCA-CPT
www.BurnTheFat.com0 -
According to your previous comments, you are also on a specific eating plan outside just using MFP to track your eating and activity. Your situation is different and doesn't really apply here!I never eat mine
obviously nothing has kept me from losing.
Every person loses differently so everyone has to do what works for them.0 -
Link?Actually I did. Twice. I was ignored both times. Most people don't want to be proven wrong though.0 -
This is a very true possibility.0
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Link?Actually I did. Twice. I was ignored both times. Most people don't want to be proven wrong though.
I did link it.0 -
You mean the same link that says this?My opinion is, you should not go below your goal weight maintenance calories to lose weight, and you should do adequate research and dietary analysis to ensure you are getting the best nutrition you can for your calories.
If reducing your calorie intake to goal weight maintenance creates greater than 1000 calorie a day deficit, then I strongly suggest that you do a value half-way until you have lost some of your weight.0 -
You mean the same link that says this?My opinion is, you should not go below your goal weight maintenance calories to lose weight, and you should do adequate research and dietary analysis to ensure you are getting the best nutrition you can for your calories.
If reducing your calorie intake to goal weight maintenance creates greater than 1000 calorie a day deficit, then I strongly suggest that you do a value half-way until you have lost some of your weight.
Notice he said "in my opinion". He didn't say according to this research study... The research within that articles states what I summarized and don't feel the need to type again.0 -
You mean the research study done in Minnesota on a small group of men the same age over a short period of time? We're talking about people who have large deficeits for LONG periods of time -- months and months. That study was done over 3 days or a week and their metabolism dropped 10%. Imagine if they had reduced their calories below 50% for 3/4 months?0
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I also believe that starvation is much different than what you describe as starvation mode... because I am sticking with what I know and saying that 'starvation mode' is more of a catch phrase.0
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Thank you MSF74. Excellent post.0
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Interesting topic like always.
I have been doing MFP for 4 months and only down 10lbs. While my partner who does the same workout and eats the same thing has lost 20lbs. The only thing I can think is I'm 159 and shes 183 so her extra 30lbs more than me makes it easier for her to lose weight. I eat at least 1,200 calories everyday sometimes more my goal is at 13200. My BMR says 1420 right now. As irritating as it is I keep saying slow and steady is better so by a year of MFP I should be at 100% at my goal lost.0 -
So this ONE link you've provided to back your view point -- the person who wrote it and who did all the research ended up just agreeing with what I'm saying in the first place. Funny how that works.0
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Shaun, there's always going to be someone that disagrees with your view, no matter how well thought out and backed up by solid research, I wouldn't let it get to you. If people read the original research, browse through the posts, and don't come up with the same conclusions, you did your best.
trust me, I've been fighting this fight for years, and have learned to pick my battles.
You know what the research says, I know what the research says, I know what people I've helped succeed tell me, and you will to.
For reference, I don't think anyone on here debates the fact that many people's concept of starvation mode is incorrect, and that's where the whole "myth" thing comes in. Starvation mode is real, it happens, I can show you study after study proving that fact, it's what people think causes starvation mode, and what the body does in response to starvation mode that some folks are gravely mistaken about.0 -
I can definitely agree with you on all points.0
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I never eat mine
obviously nothing has kept me from losing.
WOW! U look great! I have I have about 100-110 lbs to lose and You are such a motivation:) I worry about not eating my calories back too...I don't eat them!0 -
I am about 25 pounds away from MY goal, which means nothing except is a weight I would like to weigh. I was eating at what I thought was a deficit and eating back some of my exercise calories. I lost nothing for 6 weeks. I then started weighing everything and only eating back about half of them once or twice a week. Most days, my net is around 1200. On my fasting days, my net is often 900-1000. I do, however try to get close to 100 grams of protein daily. My research on the subject has caused me to believe that it is the loss of muscle and lean mass that causes the slowing in metabolism and not the calorie restriction. I have lost one pound per week since then. I use a HRM, lift weights 3xweek and cardio 3xweek. I only log 100 calories less than what my HRM says I burned to account for what I would have burned anyway. All of this eating less has caused me to begin losing again. I know it is not lean mass because the amount I can lift goes up nearly every workout and I am seeing much more muscle definition.
This is what works for me. I would never try to lecture that this will work for everyone. Maybe some people need to eat more to lose. That's what works for them. It just bothers me that when people eat below 1200 for one day on here, they get bombarded with posts telling them they are in "starvation mode". It may be a real thing, but it doesn't happen in one day. The same way that people who gain weight after one week walking on the treadmill get bombarded with posts telling them they are gaining muscle. Things don't happen that fast.
I would bet that at least 80% of people who say they are eating 1200 a day and can't lose are really eating a lot more. When their attention is drawn to it and they say they're going to bump it up to 1400, they actually track better and really eat 1400. I just find it hard to believe that there are so many people that actually eat 1000-1200 calories a day, can't lose any weight.0 -
bump0
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I very rarely net over 1000.I never eat my exercise calories I havent for a year.Im fine.developing muscle nicely,very healthy for an ex drug addict who smokes.I am not saying I dont believe in starvation mode im saying I dont believe there is a magic number that is the same for everyone,Because after a year I should be in starvation mode right?
And if your just going to come back with a comment like "just wait you will be" you can go ahead and save it lol
I have a dr that knows how im eating and have been nutritonalist I think if they say im fine I will listen to them and not some random people on the net who graduated top of their class in copying and pasting:happy:0 -
I'm confused!
My brain is fuzzy from cold meds.... someone please explain this as simply as possible. I workout 5 days a week, sometimes more, and have been staying at around 1400 cals a day. So this is good right?0 -
I have a question to ask about starvation mode because I'm starting to think my current plateau is to do with it...
I started MFP in January and am down quite a bit already (as you can see from my counter!). My goal cals to begin with were 1,650 but obviously as I've lost more they've gone down and are now 1,400. I eat 1,400 a day always, and exercise around 5 days a week burning 300-400. I've been pretty much doing this since the beginning, but some days my net cals have been as low as 400/500 (the majority of the time however they net at around 1,000-1,100). I do eat back some of my exercise calories but some days I have say 600 calories left after I exercise. Since I go to the gym at night usually, and after dinner (around 7pm until 9pm) I obviously don't feel like eating back 600 calories so I usually eat 200-300 back max. Could my body be in starvation mode? I had a "cheat weekend" this weekend where I didn't count my calories at all for around 3 days after someone suggested I have a few high calorie days to try and get over the plateau (I'd estimate I had around 2,000 a day for 3 days straight) so I'm hoping that has given my metabolism a bit of a kick, I'll see in my weigh in on Friday morning. Any suggestions?0 -
Thanks for compiling all those links, including my post from yesterday seeking advice on this very topic! It's a hard concept to understand somethings that I really need to eat more. I've been focusing on it and trying to get my net calories for the day closer to 1200. I'm hoping my body starts to kick back into gear soon, I'm gonna keep moving forward with it.0
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