Paleo Diet

Teemo

Or maybe it’s because like most thinking humans we know Paleo is a guideline not a Nazi like regime where you will get kicked out of the “cult” (in your words) if you go against recommendations? You think?

Then you aren't really following the paleo diet, are you? The paleo diet DOES have a strict list of foods which should be avoided. I've posted the list before, and the paleo diet also attracts zealots like Robb Wolfe (of The Paleo Solution) which I'm sure you're familiar with.

""Find something that had a face and a soul, kill it, and bring its essence into your being."

As for you saying it's more a guideline than actual rules (Oh, hello Pirates of the Caribbean) then you can't ay you're following the paleo diet while eating sweet potatoes and grains when you feel like it, just like I couldn't say I was following Atkins except for when I have by Boston Creme donuts.

You're simply following a common sense diet based on , for example, generally-accepted principles like avoiding overly processed foods and trans fats. Nothing wrong with that.

The science behind grains not being optimal is there

But it isn't, though if you want to send me any studies that you think supports your position I'll be happy to look at it and exchange thoughts with you.

the science that sat fats are bad is faultyy, he science that trans fats are bad is there, the science that red meat causes cancer is faulty. The science that cholesterol in foods cause serum cholesterol is bunk.

Agreed on all counts.

What I find ridiculous is the cult like following of the food pyramid and government recommendations when ALL the credible evidence points to the opposite being true.

Also agreed.

I am by no means an expert but there does seem to be substantial evidence that grains are detrimental to your health. Paleo is about eating what our bodies have evolved to live on. I'm not sure what list you are looking at but the basis of the "diet" from my research is cutting grains, sugar, and legumes. That doesn't seem so exhaustive to me. Sure there are some people that also cut dairy but I would imagine that is probably what many non paleo dieters do as well.

Again, these are just my opinions formed from a few weeks of research so take it as you will.

That's fine, but the rationale that by following what your paleolithic ancestors ate -- which seems counterintuitive in the first instance unless they were all chiseled 6'0" 220 lbs at 5% bodyfat -- is somehow better than following a balanced diet which DOES contain grains/starches/legumes is purely speculative.

And yes, plenty of people cut dairy -- especially a good idea if you're lactose intolerant! But there's no cool name or support group for that diet.

Azuleelan

Beyond the science, there's one simple principle, and it's what every paleo or primal book say; just try no grains for a month, see how you feel... I feel better, no inflamation, proper hunger, and more nutrients as more veggies and protein are substituting the wheat.
I think Teemo is basing his opinion on extremist views of paleo... I'm no extremist, so I won't follow every single rule, and I don't run around claiming a sweet potato is not paleo. Avoiding grains has been a good change for me, but I'm not about to avoid dairy, nor sweet potatoes, for the sake of being part of the paleo family...
There IS evidence that grains don't provide as much nutrition as other foods. There IS evidence that grains irritate the stomach. I don't need evidence of what exactly did paleolithic people ate, but I'm pretty sure they didn't eat grains like wheat NOR McDonalds, and that's enough evidence for me.

Teemo

Beyond the science, there's one simple principle, and it's what every paleo or primal book say; just try no grains for a month, see how you feel... I feel better, no inflamation, proper hunger, and more nutrients as more veggies and protein are substituting the wheat.

Plenty of people have grain intolerances or allergies. As well as lactose intolerances. Just because I'm -personally- allergic to peanuts however doesn't mean a no-peanut diet is superior to a diet containing peanuts. You do raise a good point though. If you have problems digesting grains then you should definitely consider limiting them. Just like if you're lactose intolerant you should probably be careful which dairy products you consume.

I think Teemo is basing his opinion on extremist views of paleo... I'm no extremist, so I won't follow every single rule, and I don't run around claiming a sweet potato is not paleo. Avoiding grains has been a good change for me, but I'm not about to avoid dairy, nor sweet potatoes, for the sake of being part of the paleo family...

I'm actually basing my opinion on what the paleo diet is SUPPOSED TO BE, as originally conceptualized. Many people have approached it the way you have: by picking and choosing which parts of it to follow. And that's, again, fine... but then you aren't part of the "paleo family" as you put it.

There IS evidence that grains don't provide as much nutrition as other foods.

Consider this. I will accept, for purposes of this argument, that an apple is better than slice of white bread ABSENT other foods and context. Let us then say you have eaten 100% of your daily requirements of the vitamins provided by apples. However, you have only eaten 500 calories for the day. Do you then consume another 1,500 calories of apples?

That is my problem with the paleo diet. An entire food group has been demonized for... what? I prefer my diet. I can eat white bread AND apples. :laugh:

There IS evidence that grains irritate the stomach. I don't need evidence of what exactly did paleolithic people ate, but I'm pretty sure they didn't eat grains like wheat NOR McDonalds, and that's enough evidence for me.

I have never understood that reasoning. Because paleolithic people didn't eat grains... that means grains are no good for you?

Teemo

To the threadstarter:

I'm in favor of keeping things simple.

1. Figure out what your calorie target is, and try to stay in that range.
2. Avoid overly-processed foods (e.g., fast foods, anything with a billion ingredients and preservatives.)
3. Exercise.

A serious kickstart is good. But being able to follow said healthy kickstart for the rest of your healthy and improved life is better! Over-complicating makes it difficult to do so...

freerange

Then you aren't really following the paleo diet, are you? The paleo diet DOES have a strict list of foods which should be avoided. I've posted the list before, and the paleo diet also attracts zealots like Robb Wolfe (of The Paleo Solution) which I'm sure you're familiar with.

Would you like to rephrase that? Because you just proved my point, “should” be avoided, they don’t say must be avoided. And if you read, the why behind it, you (if you are a thinking human) can decide if the why or science works for you. Let’s take dairy, the why behind dairy is that some, a lot, most (I don’t know) but some people have lactose intolerance, but some don’t. If you cut out all dairy for awhile and add it back you can decide for yourself if dairy is a good/bad food for you. Same with grain, but grain is a little more insidious because the affects on most people are not as pronounced as dairy, but they are there none the less.

I’m not sure who said it, it might have been Wolff, or Sisson, but it goes something like this. “The Primal diet is not a reenactment, it’s taking what we know about the health inducing diet of our ancestors and applying it to our modern world”. This means there will certainly be things that “cavemen” didn’t have that we do, that are good for us (baby food sweet potatoes) it also means there may be things they did that were not the healthiest, like,,,,,,, well can’t think of anything off the top of my head,,,,, maybe going days without food,,,,, if they ever really did. Well today we can control that, we can assure we have food tomorrow, and control our portions today knowing it won’t be days before we might eat again.

So the argument that cavemen didn’t have this or do that is a strawman at best and ignorance at worst.

bcattoes

Geez, grains are not bad for "you" when "you" is used to mean "everyone". Neither is the Paleo Diet bad for "you" when "you" is used to mean "everyone". Dieting does seem to make some people SO cranky!!

(the baby food still seems odd to me, but whatever works for "you" is cool with me)

freerange

I have never understood that reasoning. Because paleolithic people didn't eat grains... that means grains are no good for you?

No, it's the reason they didn't eat them. Really, you needed to be told that?

Teemo

Would you like to rephrase that? Because you just proved my point, “should” be avoided, they don’t say must be avoided.

/sigh. Are we really going down this route?

"Forbidden foods"
http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/od/paleodietcavemandiet/a/paleoforbidden.htm
http://www.livestrong.com/article/71220-paleo-diet/

If the only point of contention you have with what I posted is the difference between "should" be avoided, and "must" be avoided, I'll accept that.

I’m not sure who said it, it might have been Wolff, or Sisson, but it goes something like this. “The Primal diet is not a reenactment, it’s taking what we know about the health inducing diet of our ancestors and applying it to our modern world”. This means there will certainly be things that “cavemen” didn’t have that we do, that are good for us (baby food sweet potatoes) it also means there may be things they did that were not the healthiest, like,,,,,,, well can’t think of anything off the top of my head,,,,, maybe going days without food,,,,, if they ever really did. Well today we can control that, we can assure we have food tomorrow, and control our portions today knowing it won’t be days before we might eat again.

So the argument that cavemen didn’t have this or do that is a strawman at best and ignorance at worst.

I don't really care what our cavemen ancestors had or didn't have. Or what they ate, or didn't eat. But building a diet around the principle that what they DID have or what they DID eat, and expecting that diet to be better, is bizarrely speculative. I can't imagine in what logical world you would say to yourself, "Hey... I'm going to try and eat the way people ate 100,000 years ago. That MUST be a good idea."

That sounded more insulting than I probably mean. I rewrote it a couple of times but... I'll stand by it as it is now.

No, it's the reason they didn't eat them. Really, you needed to be told that?

Yes. Please tell me WHY our paleolithic ancestors did not consume grains. (I will also direct you to this study, which caused some drama when it was brought to the paleo community's attention, which indicates that our paleolithic ancestors DID consume grains. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15210984)

Azuleelan

Teemo:

1. Yeah, I would say I'm paleo because the foods that I am avoiding, I'm avoiding following a few paleo principles. Many catholics have sex while using condoms, that doesn't make them less catholic. They're just catholics that don't agree with stup*d *kitten*.

2. You're right, just because paleolithic people didn't eat grains, that doesn't mean grains are bad for us. What is bad for us is to consume a relatively poor source of nutrients in such massive quantities as the food pyramid recommends.

3. I wouldn't be in the situation to have eaten only 500 calories because I procure a lot of protein and veggies. I don't need bread to close that caloric gap simply because good quality food such as veggies and meat have enough calories to reach my recommended caloric intake if scheduled properly. I also wouldn't be inclined to eat 10 slices of bread only to reach my daily intake... using your reasoning I should be drinking a cup of oil instead, much faster to gulp down and calories galore...

4. I used to be like that too: people wanting to fit into a group made me roll my eyes. I've outgrown that though. We're social beings, and identifying with certain groups make us feel better, more at ease. We're born this way... you should try it sometime

Teemo

Benefits of whole-grains:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20820038
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7811380

And yes, I am cherry-picking studies and yes, there are problems with those studies. That is, unfortunately, a real issue of concern anytime it comes to nutrition. Long-term studies that aren't flawed are simply not available. Even short-term studies aren't, in most cases, properly controlled.

Can't have human guinea pigs and all that good stuff. :laugh:

freerange

http://nourishedkitchen.com/against-the-grain-10-reasons-to-give-up-grains/

4. Grains cause inflammation.
Due to a high starch content, grains are inflammatory foods. The more refined the grain, the more inflammatory it is. For example, unbleached white flour is more inflammatory than whole grain flour; however, whole grains are still moderately inflammatory foods and certainly more inflammatory than other foods like fresh vegetables and wholesome fats. Chronic inflammation is linked to a myriad of degenerative, modern diseases including arthritis, allergies, asthma, cardiovascular disease, bone loss, emotional imbalance and even cancer. Unbleached white flour earns an inflammation factor of -421 or strongly inflammatory on NutritionData.com while whole wheat flour earns an inflammation factor of -247 or moderately inflammatory. Similarly, whole cooked millet earns an inflammation factor of -150 and cooked brown rice earns an inflammation factor of -143 – also moderately inflammatory.
7. Poorly Prepared Grains prevent mineral absorption.
When improperly prepared as they most often are, grains can inhibit vitamin and mineral absorption. Grains contain substances like phytic acid which binds up minerals and prevents proper absorption. Essentially, though your diet might be rich in iron, calcium and other vital nutrients if you eat improperly prepared grain, you’re not fully absorbing nutrients from the foods you eat. However, please note that souring, sprouting and soaking grains neutralizes phytates and renders the nutrients in grain more absorbable.
10. Eating grain makes you crave grain.
You know how the smell of bread creates a longing in you – a yearning for a slice, slathered with butter and maybe jam. Or consider a plate of cookies set in front of you – so delicious – and you can’t just have one? Foods rich in carbohydrates give you quick energy, but that energy wears off just as quickly as it came. Since grains break down into sugar, they create a rise in insulin levels when those levels fall you crave more grains and, thus, the vicious cycle continues.
Of course, if you’re not quite ready to give up grains in their entirety, take care to make sure you eat the best quality grains prepared for optimal nourishment. Choose organic grains and make sure you eat them sprouted, soaked or soured. Or go on a grain-free trial with me for the month of May!

Bottom line for me is grains are not optimal foods, there is nothing in grain I need to be healthy, and plenty of stuff in grains that can make me not healthy. I believe this is true for everyone, it may not affect you as severely as it affects others, but IMO it does affect you, it just might be a low level.

I could go strict Paleo cut out ALL dairy, and ALL potatoes, and all the rest, and IMO it would be better for me, but for now, I have decided the trade off I have made is the one I want to make. I will eat dairy until I decide the risk is to high, and I will eat sweet potatoes and on rare occasions white potatoes. But I try my damndest to avoid gluten containing grains, HFCS, Hydrogenated oils, and vegetable oils, and processed sugars. So far I like the results, I’m healthy, losing weight, and feel great. Nuff said, right?

Oh one last thing, as for sustainability, what is not sustainable about eating meat, vegetables, fruits and berries for the rest of your life, AND as a thinking adult having a piece of cake or a slice of pizza every now and then as a treat?

Azuleelan

"in an attempt to overcome food shortages", says your http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15210984 article...
If I had a food shortage, I would certainly eat some grass. Something is better than nothing! :laugh:

Teemo

1. Yeah, I would say I'm paleo because the foods that I am avoiding, I'm avoiding following a few paleo principles. Many catholics have sex while using condoms, that doesn't make them less catholic. They're just catholics that don't agree with stup*d *kitten*.

I'm not sure if the Catholic church would agree with you. :laugh:

2. You're right, just because paleolithic people didn't eat grains, that doesn't mean grains are bad for us. What is bad for us is to consume a relatively poor source of nutrients in such massive quantities as the food pyramid recommends.

Sure. The food pyramid is terrible, and nutritional balance is key.

3. I wouldn't be in the situation to have eaten only 500 calories because I procure a lot of protein and veggies. I don't need bread to close that caloric gap simply because good quality food such as veggies and meat have enough calories to reach my recommended caloric intake if scheduled properly. I also wouldn't be inclined to eat 10 slices of bread only to reach my daily intake... using your reasoning I should be drinking a cup of oil instead, much faster to gulp down and calories galore...

That's the result you have when a diet that demonizes an entire food group. Not to mention that grains ARE good for you.

4. I used to be like that too: people wanting to fit into a group made me roll my eyes. I've outgrown that though. We're social beings, and identifying with certain groups make us feel better, more at ease. We're born this way... you should try it sometime

Sure, I understand that. Which is why I only roll my eyes slightly when people say they are "paleo". Like I said in my very first post in this thread, it's a BETTER solution than eating the everyday crap that got us onto this forum in the first place. But I'm not a fan of, nor would I ever recommend to someone to be a fan of, of speculative orthorexia.

Let's be honest: dieting is hard enough on its own.

Teemo

"in an attempt to overcome food shortages", says your http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15210984 article...
If I had a food shortage, I would certainly eat some grass. Something is better than nothing! :laugh:

You've read the study incorrectly. Nice try though.

The food shortage hypothesis is from The Domestication and Exploitation of Plants and Animals, eds., which is among the studies that paleo dieters had relied on when determining that grains were not part of the paleolithic diet.

I would encourage you to take the time to read the entire study if you have a pubmed account, before you pull a single sentence out of context and ridicule it... especially when that sentence is in reference to a study which supports YOUR position.

If you do not have a pubmed account, then I would encourage you to sign up for one!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2009/12/17/tech-archaeology-grain-africa-cave.html

Chuckw40

http://nourishedkitchen.com/against-the-grain-10-reasons-to-give-up-grains/

4. Grains cause inflammation.
Due to a high starch content, grains are inflammatory foods. The more refined the grain, the more inflammatory it is. For example, unbleached white flour is more inflammatory than whole grain flour; however, whole grains are still moderately inflammatory foods and certainly more inflammatory than other foods like fresh vegetables and wholesome fats. Chronic inflammation is linked to a myriad of degenerative, modern diseases including arthritis, allergies, asthma, cardiovascular disease, bone loss, emotional imbalance and even cancer. Unbleached white flour earns an inflammation factor of -421 or strongly inflammatory on NutritionData.com while whole wheat flour earns an inflammation factor of -247 or moderately inflammatory. Similarly, whole cooked millet earns an inflammation factor of -150 and cooked brown rice earns an inflammation factor of -143 – also moderately inflammatory.
7. Poorly Prepared Grains prevent mineral absorption.
When improperly prepared as they most often are, grains can inhibit vitamin and mineral absorption. Grains contain substances like phytic acid which binds up minerals and prevents proper absorption. Essentially, though your diet might be rich in iron, calcium and other vital nutrients if you eat improperly prepared grain, you’re not fully absorbing nutrients from the foods you eat. However, please note that souring, sprouting and soaking grains neutralizes phytates and renders the nutrients in grain more absorbable.
10. Eating grain makes you crave grain.
You know how the smell of bread creates a longing in you – a yearning for a slice, slathered with butter and maybe jam. Or consider a plate of cookies set in front of you – so delicious – and you can’t just have one? Foods rich in carbohydrates give you quick energy, but that energy wears off just as quickly as it came. Since grains break down into sugar, they create a rise in insulin levels when those levels fall you crave more grains and, thus, the vicious cycle continues.
Of course, if you’re not quite ready to give up grains in their entirety, take care to make sure you eat the best quality grains prepared for optimal nourishment. Choose organic grains and make sure you eat them sprouted, soaked or soured. Or go on a grain-free trial with me for the month of May!

Bottom line for me is grains are not optimal foods, there is nothing in grain I need to be healthy, and plenty of stuff in grains that can make me not healthy. I believe this is true for everyone, it may not affect you as severely as it affects others, but IMO it does affect you, it just might be a low level.

I could go strict Paleo cut out ALL dairy, and ALL potatoes, and all the rest, and IMO it would be better for me, but for now, I have decided the trade off I have made is the one I want to make. I will eat dairy until I decide the risk is to high, and I will eat sweet potatoes and on rare occasions white potatoes. But I try my damndest to avoid gluten containing grains, HFCS, Hydrogenated oils, and vegetable oils, and processed sugars. So far I like the results, I’m healthy, losing weight, and feel great. Nuff said, right?

Oh one last thing, as for sustainability, what is not sustainable about eating meat, vegetables, fruits and berries for the rest of your life, AND as a thinking adult having a piece of cake or a slice of pizza every now and then as a treat?

I agree with the above. From the reading I have been doing grains are not good for you and since i can live perfectly fine without them why bother? Teemo, I'm sure vegetarians must love you when you constantly criticize them for cutting an entire food group right?

Teemo

I agree with the above. From the reading I have been doing grains are not good for you and since i can live perfectly fine without them why bother? Teemo, I'm sure vegetarians must love you when you constantly criticize them for cutting an entire food group right?

I don't know, I've never done so. But I don't really know why people are vegetarians... it seems to be mostly an ethical or religious decision.

Zeromilediet

What do people know about the Paleo diet? Is it a fad? Is it healthly to do? I have about 50 pounds I want to lose but need a serious kick-start!

Most of the dietary choices that are attributed to the 'Paleo' or 'Caveman' diet have been around for 2 million years so IMHO it couldn't be called a fad. Yes, it is healthy to do; humans ate like this for hundreds of thousands of years and not only did our species survive, it evolved and thrived. (If you don't believe in evolution, close your eyes and go to another thread)

There is criticism that an entire food group is being villified (i.e., grains), and there are plenty of people who have no apparent symptoms of intolerance or allergy to them. On the other hand, people (like myself) who have never had any apparent symptoms of intolerance (exception is what I believe to be the gas & bloating *everyone* has) have in two months of removing grains, dairy and sugar from my diet experienced an improvement in health that is nothing short of astonishing. In addition I've lost weight, but that's not what I even care about anymore--I feel so good.

It is a fact: there is not one single essential amino acid in grains that cannot be obtained from eating meat/poultry/fish, vegetables, fruit and nuts. So, I don't understand why grains are considered necessary? For fibre? I get more than enough fibre daily from vegetables, fruit & nuts--I know because it's something I track on MFP.

Some suggested reading:
Why we get fat (by Gary Taubes)
Good calories Bad calories (by Gary Taubes)--a harder read because it's directed toward healthcare professionals
The Paleo Diet (Dr Loren Cordain)
From the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition - Origins and evolution of the Western diet: Health implications for the 21st century http://www.ajcn.org/content/81/2/341.abstract?sid=20af5583-0a6e-4aca-aae5-5236ff8a2740

A good link for general information about the 'paleo' diet http://www.fitbomb.com/p/why-i-eat-paleo.html

If you have any questions, send me a message.

.

freerange

Yes. Please tell me WHY our paleolithic ancestors did not consume grains. (I will also direct you to this study, which caused some drama when it was brought to the paleo community's attention, which indicates that our paleolithic ancestors DID consume grains. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15210984)

I’m not aware of any drama it caused. And I’ve seen that “study” or findings, it really doesn’t have much bearing on anything. They found that some Paloelithic peoples might have ground grain, and might have had some grain in their diet. There is no evidence there was wide spread use of grains, and still this only takes grains back to about 50k years ago instead of 10k years ago, (when wide spread agriculture started).
The reason grains were not used is because they are a low source of nutrients, they are low in energy, hard to digest, taste like crap and the energy it takes to convert them into usable food outweighs the energy they provide. It’s a lot more energy efficient to kill a buffalo, pluck an apple from a tree or dig up a fat root.

DianaPowerUp

Well, this "debate" aside, I can tell you from personal experience, that until I cut my carb intake down (and I'm talking grains here), I could not shake those last 10 lbs. I was in the gym, 2 hr/day, doing all this cardio, strength training, blah blah, and couldn't understand why I didn't look fit/cut (and yes, while watching my calories). I did what everyone gets told to do - eat low fat, get plenty of whole grains.

Well, when I changed my diet to include healthy fats, and got rid of the grains, guess what happened? Boom, the weight fell off, and now I have muscle definition like I've never had in my life. In addition, I do probably 1/3 of the cardio that I did before (I've kept the weight training up), so I'm actually exercising less, but look better, AND I'm still losing weight. Also, I now don't have that terrible bloated feeling (which I didn't realize I was getting from grains, until I cut them out), and I no longer get those terrible carb cravings, and the "I have to eat NOW!!!!" feelings like I used to.

My "diet" totally easy to do (meaning sustainable for my lifetime), but that doesn't mean that I won't enjoy a slice of pizza or a beer, or a little sweet treat every once in a while. But living this lifestyle at least 80% of the time, has made a WORLD of difference in my health and my body (feel free to look at my before and after pix). So there's definately something to it.

bcattoes

I agree with the above. From the reading I have been doing grains are not good for you and since i can live perfectly fine without them why bother? Teemo, I'm sure vegetarians must love you when you constantly criticize them for cutting an entire food group right?

I don't know, I've never done so. But I don't really know why people are vegetarians... it seems to be mostly an ethical or religious decision.

Many people are vegetarian for health reasons. I was for almost 2 years. But I couldn't sustain it without feeling deprived. I sometimes go a day or two with no meat or animal products of any kind though. I just don't crave meat the way some people do and it makes me feel sluggish when I eat it often. I'm happier and feel better eating a big bowl of beans, greens and brown rice (my favorite and staple meal).