Paleo Diet
Replies
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http://nourishedkitchen.com/against-the-grain-10-reasons-to-give-up-grains/4. Grains cause inflammation.
Due to a high starch content, grains are inflammatory foods. The more refined the grain, the more inflammatory it is. For example, unbleached white flour is more inflammatory than whole grain flour; however, whole grains are still moderately inflammatory foods and certainly more inflammatory than other foods like fresh vegetables and wholesome fats. Chronic inflammation is linked to a myriad of degenerative, modern diseases including arthritis, allergies, asthma, cardiovascular disease, bone loss, emotional imbalance and even cancer. Unbleached white flour earns an inflammation factor of -421 or strongly inflammatory on NutritionData.com while whole wheat flour earns an inflammation factor of -247 or moderately inflammatory. Similarly, whole cooked millet earns an inflammation factor of -150 and cooked brown rice earns an inflammation factor of -143 – also moderately inflammatory.
7. Poorly Prepared Grains prevent mineral absorption.
When improperly prepared as they most often are, grains can inhibit vitamin and mineral absorption. Grains contain substances like phytic acid which binds up minerals and prevents proper absorption. Essentially, though your diet might be rich in iron, calcium and other vital nutrients if you eat improperly prepared grain, you’re not fully absorbing nutrients from the foods you eat. However, please note that souring, sprouting and soaking grains neutralizes phytates and renders the nutrients in grain more absorbable.
10. Eating grain makes you crave grain.
You know how the smell of bread creates a longing in you – a yearning for a slice, slathered with butter and maybe jam. Or consider a plate of cookies set in front of you – so delicious – and you can’t just have one? Foods rich in carbohydrates give you quick energy, but that energy wears off just as quickly as it came. Since grains break down into sugar, they create a rise in insulin levels when those levels fall you crave more grains and, thus, the vicious cycle continues.
Of course, if you’re not quite ready to give up grains in their entirety, take care to make sure you eat the best quality grains prepared for optimal nourishment. Choose organic grains and make sure you eat them sprouted, soaked or soured. Or go on a grain-free trial with me for the month of May!
Bottom line for me is grains are not optimal foods, there is nothing in grain I need to be healthy, and plenty of stuff in grains that can make me not healthy. I believe this is true for everyone, it may not affect you as severely as it affects others, but IMO it does affect you, it just might be a low level.
I could go strict Paleo cut out ALL dairy, and ALL potatoes, and all the rest, and IMO it would be better for me, but for now, I have decided the trade off I have made is the one I want to make. I will eat dairy until I decide the risk is to high, and I will eat sweet potatoes and on rare occasions white potatoes. But I try my damndest to avoid gluten containing grains, HFCS, Hydrogenated oils, and vegetable oils, and processed sugars. So far I like the results, I’m healthy, losing weight, and feel great. Nuff said, right?
Oh one last thing, as for sustainability, what is not sustainable about eating meat, vegetables, fruits and berries for the rest of your life, AND as a thinking adult having a piece of cake or a slice of pizza every now and then as a treat?0 -
"in an attempt to overcome food shortages", says your http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15210984 article...
If I had a food shortage, I would certainly eat some grass. Something is better than nothing! :laugh:0 -
1. Yeah, I would say I'm paleo because the foods that I am avoiding, I'm avoiding following a few paleo principles. Many catholics have sex while using condoms, that doesn't make them less catholic. They're just catholics that don't agree with stup*d *kitten*.
I'm not sure if the Catholic church would agree with you. :laugh:2. You're right, just because paleolithic people didn't eat grains, that doesn't mean grains are bad for us. What is bad for us is to consume a relatively poor source of nutrients in such massive quantities as the food pyramid recommends.
Sure. The food pyramid is terrible, and nutritional balance is key.3. I wouldn't be in the situation to have eaten only 500 calories because I procure a lot of protein and veggies. I don't need bread to close that caloric gap simply because good quality food such as veggies and meat have enough calories to reach my recommended caloric intake if scheduled properly. I also wouldn't be inclined to eat 10 slices of bread only to reach my daily intake... using your reasoning I should be drinking a cup of oil instead, much faster to gulp down and calories galore...
That's the result you have when a diet that demonizes an entire food group. Not to mention that grains ARE good for you.4. I used to be like that too: people wanting to fit into a group made me roll my eyes. I've outgrown that though. We're social beings, and identifying with certain groups make us feel better, more at ease. We're born this way... you should try it sometime
Sure, I understand that. Which is why I only roll my eyes slightly when people say they are "paleo". Like I said in my very first post in this thread, it's a BETTER solution than eating the everyday crap that got us onto this forum in the first place. But I'm not a fan of, nor would I ever recommend to someone to be a fan of, of speculative orthorexia.
Let's be honest: dieting is hard enough on its own.0 -
"in an attempt to overcome food shortages", says your http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15210984 article...
If I had a food shortage, I would certainly eat some grass. Something is better than nothing! :laugh:
You've read the study incorrectly. Nice try though.
The food shortage hypothesis is from The Domestication and Exploitation of Plants and Animals, eds., which is among the studies that paleo dieters had relied on when determining that grains were not part of the paleolithic diet.
I would encourage you to take the time to read the entire study if you have a pubmed account, before you pull a single sentence out of context and ridicule it... especially when that sentence is in reference to a study which supports YOUR position.
If you do not have a pubmed account, then I would encourage you to sign up for one!
http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2009/12/17/tech-archaeology-grain-africa-cave.html0 -
http://nourishedkitchen.com/against-the-grain-10-reasons-to-give-up-grains/4. Grains cause inflammation.
Due to a high starch content, grains are inflammatory foods. The more refined the grain, the more inflammatory it is. For example, unbleached white flour is more inflammatory than whole grain flour; however, whole grains are still moderately inflammatory foods and certainly more inflammatory than other foods like fresh vegetables and wholesome fats. Chronic inflammation is linked to a myriad of degenerative, modern diseases including arthritis, allergies, asthma, cardiovascular disease, bone loss, emotional imbalance and even cancer. Unbleached white flour earns an inflammation factor of -421 or strongly inflammatory on NutritionData.com while whole wheat flour earns an inflammation factor of -247 or moderately inflammatory. Similarly, whole cooked millet earns an inflammation factor of -150 and cooked brown rice earns an inflammation factor of -143 – also moderately inflammatory.
7. Poorly Prepared Grains prevent mineral absorption.
When improperly prepared as they most often are, grains can inhibit vitamin and mineral absorption. Grains contain substances like phytic acid which binds up minerals and prevents proper absorption. Essentially, though your diet might be rich in iron, calcium and other vital nutrients if you eat improperly prepared grain, you’re not fully absorbing nutrients from the foods you eat. However, please note that souring, sprouting and soaking grains neutralizes phytates and renders the nutrients in grain more absorbable.
10. Eating grain makes you crave grain.
You know how the smell of bread creates a longing in you – a yearning for a slice, slathered with butter and maybe jam. Or consider a plate of cookies set in front of you – so delicious – and you can’t just have one? Foods rich in carbohydrates give you quick energy, but that energy wears off just as quickly as it came. Since grains break down into sugar, they create a rise in insulin levels when those levels fall you crave more grains and, thus, the vicious cycle continues.
Of course, if you’re not quite ready to give up grains in their entirety, take care to make sure you eat the best quality grains prepared for optimal nourishment. Choose organic grains and make sure you eat them sprouted, soaked or soured. Or go on a grain-free trial with me for the month of May!
Bottom line for me is grains are not optimal foods, there is nothing in grain I need to be healthy, and plenty of stuff in grains that can make me not healthy. I believe this is true for everyone, it may not affect you as severely as it affects others, but IMO it does affect you, it just might be a low level.
I could go strict Paleo cut out ALL dairy, and ALL potatoes, and all the rest, and IMO it would be better for me, but for now, I have decided the trade off I have made is the one I want to make. I will eat dairy until I decide the risk is to high, and I will eat sweet potatoes and on rare occasions white potatoes. But I try my damndest to avoid gluten containing grains, HFCS, Hydrogenated oils, and vegetable oils, and processed sugars. So far I like the results, I’m healthy, losing weight, and feel great. Nuff said, right?
Oh one last thing, as for sustainability, what is not sustainable about eating meat, vegetables, fruits and berries for the rest of your life, AND as a thinking adult having a piece of cake or a slice of pizza every now and then as a treat?
I agree with the above. From the reading I have been doing grains are not good for you and since i can live perfectly fine without them why bother? Teemo, I'm sure vegetarians must love you when you constantly criticize them for cutting an entire food group right?0 -
I agree with the above. From the reading I have been doing grains are not good for you and since i can live perfectly fine without them why bother? Teemo, I'm sure vegetarians must love you when you constantly criticize them for cutting an entire food group right?
I don't know, I've never done so. But I don't really know why people are vegetarians... it seems to be mostly an ethical or religious decision.0 -
What do people know about the Paleo diet? Is it a fad? Is it healthly to do? I have about 50 pounds I want to lose but need a serious kick-start!
Most of the dietary choices that are attributed to the 'Paleo' or 'Caveman' diet have been around for 2 million years so IMHO it couldn't be called a fad. Yes, it is healthy to do; humans ate like this for hundreds of thousands of years and not only did our species survive, it evolved and thrived. (If you don't believe in evolution, close your eyes and go to another thread)
There is criticism that an entire food group is being villified (i.e., grains), and there are plenty of people who have no apparent symptoms of intolerance or allergy to them. On the other hand, people (like myself) who have never had any apparent symptoms of intolerance (exception is what I believe to be the gas & bloating *everyone* has) have in two months of removing grains, dairy and sugar from my diet experienced an improvement in health that is nothing short of astonishing. In addition I've lost weight, but that's not what I even care about anymore--I feel so good.
It is a fact: there is not one single essential amino acid in grains that cannot be obtained from eating meat/poultry/fish, vegetables, fruit and nuts. So, I don't understand why grains are considered necessary? For fibre? I get more than enough fibre daily from vegetables, fruit & nuts--I know because it's something I track on MFP.
Some suggested reading:
Why we get fat (by Gary Taubes)
Good calories Bad calories (by Gary Taubes)--a harder read because it's directed toward healthcare professionals
The Paleo Diet (Dr Loren Cordain)
From the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition - Origins and evolution of the Western diet: Health implications for the 21st century http://www.ajcn.org/content/81/2/341.abstract?sid=20af5583-0a6e-4aca-aae5-5236ff8a2740
A good link for general information about the 'paleo' diet http://www.fitbomb.com/p/why-i-eat-paleo.html
If you have any questions, send me a message.
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Yes. Please tell me WHY our paleolithic ancestors did not consume grains. (I will also direct you to this study, which caused some drama when it was brought to the paleo community's attention, which indicates that our paleolithic ancestors DID consume grains. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15210984)
I’m not aware of any drama it caused. And I’ve seen that “study” or findings, it really doesn’t have much bearing on anything. They found that some Paloelithic peoples might have ground grain, and might have had some grain in their diet. There is no evidence there was wide spread use of grains, and still this only takes grains back to about 50k years ago instead of 10k years ago, (when wide spread agriculture started).
The reason grains were not used is because they are a low source of nutrients, they are low in energy, hard to digest, taste like crap and the energy it takes to convert them into usable food outweighs the energy they provide. It’s a lot more energy efficient to kill a buffalo, pluck an apple from a tree or dig up a fat root.0 -
Well, this "debate" aside, I can tell you from personal experience, that until I cut my carb intake down (and I'm talking grains here), I could not shake those last 10 lbs. I was in the gym, 2 hr/day, doing all this cardio, strength training, blah blah, and couldn't understand why I didn't look fit/cut (and yes, while watching my calories). I did what everyone gets told to do - eat low fat, get plenty of whole grains.
Well, when I changed my diet to include healthy fats, and got rid of the grains, guess what happened? Boom, the weight fell off, and now I have muscle definition like I've never had in my life. In addition, I do probably 1/3 of the cardio that I did before (I've kept the weight training up), so I'm actually exercising less, but look better, AND I'm still losing weight. Also, I now don't have that terrible bloated feeling (which I didn't realize I was getting from grains, until I cut them out), and I no longer get those terrible carb cravings, and the "I have to eat NOW!!!!" feelings like I used to.
My "diet" totally easy to do (meaning sustainable for my lifetime), but that doesn't mean that I won't enjoy a slice of pizza or a beer, or a little sweet treat every once in a while. But living this lifestyle at least 80% of the time, has made a WORLD of difference in my health and my body (feel free to look at my before and after pix). So there's definately something to it.0 -
I agree with the above. From the reading I have been doing grains are not good for you and since i can live perfectly fine without them why bother? Teemo, I'm sure vegetarians must love you when you constantly criticize them for cutting an entire food group right?
I don't know, I've never done so. But I don't really know why people are vegetarians... it seems to be mostly an ethical or religious decision.
Many people are vegetarian for health reasons. I was for almost 2 years. But I couldn't sustain it without feeling deprived. I sometimes go a day or two with no meat or animal products of any kind though. I just don't crave meat the way some people do and it makes me feel sluggish when I eat it often. I'm happier and feel better eating a big bowl of beans, greens and brown rice (my favorite and staple meal).0 -
I’m not aware of any drama it caused. And I’ve seen that “study” or findings, it really doesn’t have much bearing on anything. They found that some Paloelithic peoples might have ground grain, and might have had some grain in their diet. There is no evidence there was wide spread use of grains, and still this only takes grains back to about 50k years ago instead of 10k years ago, (when wide spread agriculture started).
The reason grains were not used is because they are a low source of nutrients, they are low in energy, hard to digest, taste like crap and the energy it takes to convert them into usable food outweighs the energy they provide. It’s a lot more energy efficient to kill a buffalo, pluck an apple from a tree or dig up a fat root.
/chuckle
And the 'human' of the paleolithic era is the model which we try to emulate? Lower lifespans? Animal pack behavior? I've always thought of the transition to agriculture to be a blessing and a key stepping stone in the evolution of man.0 -
I agree with the above. From the reading I have been doing grains are not good for you and since i can live perfectly fine without them why bother? Teemo, I'm sure vegetarians must love you when you constantly criticize them for cutting an entire food group right?
I don't know, I've never done so. But I don't really know why people are vegetarians... it seems to be mostly an ethical or religious decision.
Here this is just for you. Just to show what a nice guy I am, because I know you want to spread the “WORD” to all that forsake entire food groups, here is a link to a group that I’m sure will appreciate your words of wisdom. (yes I’m being sarcastic) http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/242603-vegetarians-vegans-raw-foodists0 -
Well, this "debate" aside, I can tell you from personal experience, that until I cut my carb intake down (and I'm talking grains here), I could not shake those last 10 lbs. I was in the gym, 2 hr/day, doing all this cardio, strength training, blah blah, and couldn't understand why I didn't look fit/cut (and yes, while watching my calories). I did what everyone gets told to do - eat low fat, get plenty of whole grains.
Congrats on your progress! As for the rest of your post, I snipped it because whatever you're doing is obviously working for you so I have nothing to add or say about it. :bigsmile:Many people are vegetarian for health reasons. I was for almost 2 years. But I couldn't sustain it without feeling deprived. I sometimes go a day or two with no meat or animal products of any kind though. I just don't crave meat the way some people do and it makes me feel sluggish when I eat it often. I'm happier and feel better eating a big bowl of beans, greens and brown rice (my favorite and staple meal).
Oh. Well, I hope you found a healthy balance that fits your lifestyle goals? I don't know, I don't know of any studies or support, or have ever heard of any, that say meats/animal proteins are bad for you. That's why I mostly assumed vegetarians/vegans selected their diet on moral or ethical grounds.
If it's not too personal, what were the health reasons that you based your decision to be a vegetarian on?Here this is just for you. Just to show what a nice guy I am, because I know you want to spread the “WORD” to all that forsake entire food groups, here is a link to a group that I’m sure will appreciate your words of wisdom. (yes I’m being sarcastic) http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/242603-vegetarians-vegans-raw-foodists
Thanks, I'll get right on it this afternoon!0 -
Awww! but I wasn't ridiculizing anything! I was thinking exaclty what I said: If I had a food shortage I WOULD eat grass! And that makes me laugh :laugh:
But the thing is I have a choice, probably unlike paleolithic people trying to get nutrients from any source they found. The irritation plus low nutrition value of grains compared to other ready available foods isn't worth it to me. My stomach is as flat as flat gets, I have no tummy issues anymore, and I eat like a pig... like a pig that eats tons of produce and meat! Oh, and finally, my approach is not to "demonize" a food group... you see, ants might be full of protein, but I have better, and prettier, sources of protein. I do not need ants, so I don't eat them. I do not need grains, so I don't eat them...
That seems simple enough.:bigsmile:0 -
Awww! but I wasn't ridiculizing anything! I was thinking exaclty what I said: If I had a food shortage I WOULD eat grass! And that makes me laugh :laugh:
But the thing is I have a choice, probably unlike paleolithic people trying to get nutrients from any source they found. The irritation plus low nutrition value of grains compared to other ready available foods isn't worth it to me. My stomach is as flat as flat gets, I have no tummy issues anymore, and I eat like a pig... like a pig that eats tons of produce and meat! Oh, and finally, my approach is not to "demonize" a food group... you see, ants might be full of protein, but I have better, and prettier, sources of protein. I do not need ants, so I don't eat them. I do not need grains, so I don't eat them...
That seems simple enough.:bigsmile:
/grin
Ants aren't a food group though! And there is a guy who lived on ants who lived to be 100 years old. I read it. On a website once.0 -
bump0
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You can’t help but stepping it can you? Chuckle back at ya.
/chuckle
And the 'human' of the paleolithic era is the model which we try to emulate? Lower lifespans? Animal pack behavior? I've always thought of the transition to agriculture to be a blessing and a key stepping stone in the evolution of man.
Shorter life span, really, trotting that one out are you? I’m going to assume you know better, but if you ask nicely I will explain that one if you need. Oh and I just heard on the news the other day, that this generation growing up now “MIGHT” be the first in modern time to have a shorter life span then their parents, so what do you make of that? Animal pack behavior? I didn’t notice we ever gave that up, just look around you, does Katrina ring a bell? And blessing? I don’t know about that either, it depends on your perspective I guess?0 -
Oh. Well, I hope you found a healthy balance that fits your lifestyle goals? I don't know, I don't know of any studies or support, or have ever heard of any, that say meats/animal proteins are bad for you. That's why I mostly assumed vegetarians/vegans selected their diet on moral or ethical grounds.
If it's not too personal, what were the health reasons that you based your decision to be a vegetarian on?
You can't be serious? You have never heard someone say that saturated fat is bad for you? You have never heard of the Lipid Hypothesis?0 -
You can’t help but stepping it can you? Chuckle back at ya.
Shorter life span, really, trotting that one out are you? I’m going to assume you know better, but if you ask nicely I will explain that one if you need. Oh and I just heard on the news the other day, that this generation growing up now “MIGHT” be the first in modern time to have a shorter life span then their parents, so what do you make of that? Animal pack behavior? I didn’t notice we ever gave that up, just look around you, does Katrina ring a bell? And blessing? I don’t know about that either, it depends on your perspective I guess?
I'm assuming you mean I can't help either stepping it up or doing something to bump this thread. Guilty as charged. :laugh:
What I would make of "that" is that I wouldn't assume that was because of the inclusion of carbs, whether from grains, starches, or legumes, in our diet.0 -
You can't be serious? You have never heard someone say that saturated fat is bad for you? You have never heard of the Lipid Hypothesis?
Saturated fats have a direct impact on testosterone production. I have heard people SAY it but I've never believed it or accepted it. (Unless you mean too much saturated fat... then yes, I have heard that and also accept it.)
I have not heard of the Lipid Hypothesis! Is that what you based your decision to be a vegetarian on?0 -
/chuckle
And the 'human' of the paleolithic era is the model which we try to emulate? Lower lifespans? Animal pack behavior? I've always thought of the transition to agriculture to be a blessing and a key stepping stone in the evolution of man.
It would be safe to say most individuals eating a diet that emulates humans of the paleolithic era are not interested in adopting the lifestyle of same. I like central heating, the technology to communicate thus, the wealth of the country I live in that provides an abundance of food choices, et al. All these things I am grateful for and have no interest in returning to the steppes to hunt and gather--there's a farmer's market and grocery store within 5km.
I can only speculate that lower lifespan was a result of factors such as infant mortality, infection, living in conditions where humans were prey rather than predators, etc. It sounds like you have a science background so you must be aware of how infant mortality numbers can skew a statistical result like life expectancy. In addition, as recently as the late 1800s, the leading cause of death was infection.
Agriculture and settlement was both advantageous and disadvantageous to human civilization--that's another topic of discussion altogether.0 -
You can't be serious? You have never heard someone say that saturated fat is bad for you? You have never heard of the Lipid Hypothesis?
Saturated fats have a direct impact on testosterone production. I have heard people SAY it but I've never believed it or accepted it. (Unless you mean too much saturated fat... then yes, I have heard that and also accept it.)
I have not heard of the Lipid Hypothesis! Is that what you based your decision to be a vegetarian on?
I am not nor have I ever been a vegetarian. I am pointing out that you saying no one has ever told you that eating meat is bad for you is very hard to believe. I disagree with this by the way and eat lots of meat whenever I can.
If you have never heard of the Lypid Hypothesis you should research it. The diet being pushed on us by the FDA is based on it. The main reason for the whole low fat/high carb shift in America and now the world is based on it.
Which is a very bad thing in my opinion.0 -
You can’t help but stepping it can you? Chuckle back at ya.
Shorter life span, really, trotting that one out are you? I’m going to assume you know better, but if you ask nicely I will explain that one if you need. Oh and I just heard on the news the other day, that this generation growing up now “MIGHT” be the first in modern time to have a shorter life span then their parents, so what do you make of that? Animal pack behavior? I didn’t notice we ever gave that up, just look around you, does Katrina ring a bell? And blessing? I don’t know about that either, it depends on your perspective I guess?
I'm assuming you mean I can't help either stepping it up or doing something to bump this thread. Guilty as charged. :laugh:
What I would make of "that" is that I wouldn't assume that was because of the inclusion of carbs, whether from grains, starches, or legumes, in our diet.
But you did assume it is because of grains w ehave longer life span than the caveman?0 -
I am not nor have I ever been a vegetarian. I am pointing out that you saying no one has ever told you that eating meat is bad for you is very hard to believe. I disagree with this by the way and eat lots of meat whenever I can.
If you have never heard of the Lypid Hypothesis you should research it. The diet being pushed on us by the FDA is based on it. The main reason for the whole low fat/high carb shift in America and now the world is based on it.
Which is a very bad thing in my opinion.
Oh, sorry. You quoted my post asking another poster why he became vegetarian so I mistakenly assumed you were him/her responding. Is the Lipid Hypothesis still current/relevant? Or is it just an outdated hypothesis which the FDA -- which is decades behind -- bases its food pyramid on?But you did assume it is because of grains w ehave longer life span than the caveman?
No, but I did assume that if one WERE to speculate/assume that it would be a more reasonable assumption. Oh, also I thought about what you said about vegetarians. I would probably be as aghast if someone posted saying they wanted to lose weight and a response was, "You should become vegetarian!"
What I said earlier holds true though, I don't usually pick on vegetarians/vegans. I probably still won't.
0 -
/grin
Ants aren't a food group though! And there is a guy who lived on ants who lived to be 100 years old. I read it. On a website once.
Lol! I think I read something like that too... And I'm sure people can live on any low quality food for a long time. I heard of a guy who only ate fries for like 20 years. Nothing else. Fries. 20. Years :noway:0 -
Oh, sorry. You quoted my post asking another poster why he became vegetarian so I mistakenly assumed you were him/her responding. Is the Lipid Hypothesis still current/relevant? Or is it just an outdated hypothesis which the FDA -- which is decades behind -- bases its food pyramid on?
Do I believe it's outdated and irrelevent? Yes
Does the FDA, AHA, and most doctors think so? No0 -
/grin
Ants aren't a food group though! And there is a guy who lived on ants who lived to be 100 years old. I read it. On a website once.
Lol! I think I read something like that too... And I'm sure people can live on any low quality food for a long time. I heard of a guy who only ate fries for like 20 years. Nothing else. Fries. 20. Years :noway:
I'm pretty sure there are large numbers of people in the world right now that count insects as part of their daily diet.0 -
so enjoyed this thread! I think living like a caveman is silly, didn't they live til they were like 30? i found both points very interesting and very informative, but to say that eating meat is better than eating grain, well i'm sure there is a few vegans that can argue that too! Eventually they find something wrong with everything, don't do this it will give you that etc. so i say have a little bit of everything in moderation! WTH its all gunna end up bad for you anyway! love the passion on this site!0
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Smart man.
What I said earlier holds true though, I don't usually pick on vegetarians/vegans. I probably still won't.
for a quick, well not real quick, but if you have a couple hours to kill you should watch, in this order, supersize me, and Fat Head, you can find them for free on HULU0 -
Smart man.
for a quick, well not real quick, but if you have a couple hours to kill you should watch, in this order, supersize me, and Fat Head, you can find them for free on HULU
Have seen them. Since I've gone and hijacked this thread, was there anything specific about them you wanted me to see?0
This discussion has been closed.
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