How and why carbs and a high carb intake will keep you fat!!

freerange

But how about this one? You have no idea do you? But wait I will be glad to help Alan Aragon, (your hero) has a Masters degree, now that is impressive,,,,,,,, wait for it,,,,,,,,,,, Doug McGuff,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, is,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, a,,,,,,,,,,,, MD,,,, now that should give you a chubby and I expect you to start throwing stones at Aragon, and start worshiping McGuff.

Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy.

I was merely responding to Chuck sarcastically posing the question of who is worth listening to: me or a certified nutritionist. Hence me saying that my views coincide with a well-known nutritionist which reflects scientific literature. Credentials don't trump empirical evidence. The basis for my views, if we're getting down to the credentials of the matter, stem from a bunch of dudes with MDs vs. PhDs.

You have to stop looking at me as the origin of my arguments. The origin of my arguments comes from research; I am merely presenting that research to you. I am the medium. If you want to argue my points, don't argue my credentials, argue the research.

Saying, "I believe this guy because he has an MD" is wrong. That's appeal to authority. It's a logical fallacy you are employing. You should believe someone based on the truth of their statement, and in the field we are debating, the truth of anyone's statement is determined by scientific research.

LOL

He's a certified nutritionist with an MA. I'm vocalizing his beliefs, just so you know. I'm merely the medium. Will you put more credit in the research I present and critique now?

I didn't say I believed anyone because they have a MD or a BS after their name, YOU quoted Aragons credentials “with a MA” is if it matters, I simply offered you a higher certificate to worship.

freerange

Logical Fallacy, that there is an Awfully big word professor, maybe you should explain it to us children when you use those big words. Oops sorry Teemo, that was probably condensation again.

mynameisuntz

I didn't say I believed anyone because they have a MD or a BS after their name, YOU quoted Aragons credentials “with a MA” is if it matters, I simply offered you a higher certificate to worship.

Dude, LEARN TO READ:

I was merely responding to Chuck sarcastically posing the question of who is worth listening to: me or a certified nutritionist. Hence me saying that my views coincide with a well-known nutritionist which reflects scientific literature. Credentials don't trump empirical evidence. The basis for my views, if we're getting down to the credentials of the matter, stem from a bunch of dudes with MDs vs. PhDs.

The ONLY reason I ever brought up Aragon's credentials was because Chuck sarcastically questioned who is worth listening to: me or a certified nutritionist. I'm not saying, "listen to Aragon because of his credentials!" I was merely showing how silly the argument is that I am not a nutritionist and thus I am not worth listening to, as I voice the foundation of all scientific fields: the research itself.

mynameisuntz

Logical Fallacy, that there is an Awfully big word professor, maybe you should explain it to us children when you use those big words. Oops sorry Teemo, that was probably condensation again.

Somehow wouldn't be surprised if I had to explain what appeal to authority is to you.

Teemo

I didn't say I believed anyone because they have a MD or a BS after their name, YOU quoted Aragons credentials “with a MA” is if it matters, I simply offered you a higher certificate to worship.

I cannot believe that you aren't purposely trolling this forum.

(1) You quote selectively without context, as Aragon's MA is only introduced in this thread in response to a poster saying that he would rather listen to someone with a degree than an anonymous internet poster.

Statement: "I'd rather listen to someone with a degree than someone anonymous on the internet."

Response: "Aragon has a degree."

You then quote that as if the response is appealing to authority rather than directly responding to a question about Aragon's credentials. No one is saying you SHOULD listen to Aragon because he has a degree. The only context was IF you can only trust someone with a degree then Aragon has one. It's fair game as long as you can "catch" someone and make them look bad. The accuracy and truth of your quotes is apparently meaningless to you.

(2) When you are unable to support your claims with published studies you resort to name-calling and condescending sarcasm instead of actually addressing any of the criticisms of your position. See, for your example, your "null hippopotamus statement" and -- just a few posts above -- your post about Aragon/McGuff.

Exactly what are you trying to accomplish here?

Logical Fallacy, that there is an Awfully big word professor, maybe you should explain it to us children when you use those big words. Oops sorry Teemo, that was probably condensation again.

And again.

bunchesonothing

Malapropisms are often humorous.

freerange

I didn't say I believed anyone because they have a MD or a BS after their name, YOU quoted Aragons credentials “with a MA” is if it matters, I simply offered you a higher certificate to worship.

Dude, LEARN TO READ:

I was merely responding to Chuck sarcastically posing the question of who is worth listening to: me or a certified nutritionist. Hence me saying that my views coincide with a well-known nutritionist which reflects scientific literature. Credentials don't trump empirical evidence. The basis for my views, if we're getting down to the credentials of the matter, stem from a bunch of dudes with MDs vs. PhDs.

The ONLY reason I ever brought up Aragon's credentials was because Chuck sarcastically questioned who is worth listening to: me or a certified nutritionist. I'm not saying, "listen to Aragon because of his credentials!" I was merely showing how silly the argument is that I am not a nutritionist and thus I am not worth listening to, as I voice the foundation of all scientific fields: the research itself.

Side step it all you like, you are still the one posting here. NO ONE here is posting Original research, we ALL are going by what others have done, and reported. Your dog isn’t any meaner than mine, everyone I have quoted is also well respected, obviously not by you, but that does little to diminish their work, in fact it does NOTHING to diminish it.

Chuckw40

Logical Fallacy, that there is an Awfully big word professor, maybe you should explain it to us children when you use those big words. Oops sorry Teemo, that was probably condensation again.

Somehow wouldn't be surprised if I had to explain what appeal to authority is to you.

Ya know, we can't all spend large amounts of our time becomming experts at every field. i personally have to keep up with Telecommunications and Networking. My users count on my knowing what I am talking about so they can concentrate on their jobs. It's not different here, I don't want to go to college and study nutrician and biology and statistics and chemistry for 12 years just so I can decide what I should be eating. Therefore I have to depend on the people who have put in the time to learn this stuff. So I have to research the best I can and throw my hat in with the expert who seems to know what they are talking about.

Is that so wrong?

mynameisuntz

Side step it all you like, you are still the one posting here. NO ONE here is posting Original research, we ALL are going by what others have done, and reported. Your dog isn’t any meaner than mine, everyone I have quoted is also well respected, obviously not by you, but that does little to diminish their work, in fact it does NOTHING to diminish it.

You are unreal. Teemo already laid it out - I only brought credentials into it when someone else did to show how that argument is lacking.

Not posting original research? http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/269934-how-and-why-carbs-and-a-high-carb-intake-will-keep-you-fat?page=9 - I cite 3 studies in that page. Have at it. I referenced this for you last page, too, when you asked. Did you forget already?

mynameisuntz

Ya know, we can't all spend large amounts of our time becomming experts at every field. i personally have to keep up with Telecommunications and Networking. My users count on my knowing what I am talking about so they can concentrate on their jobs. It's not different here, I don't want to go to college and study nutrician and biology and statistics and chemistry for 12 years just so I can decide what I should be eating. Therefore I have to depend on the people who have put in the time to learn this stuff. So I have to research the best I can and throw my hat in with the expert who seems to know what they are talking about.

Is that so wrong?

It's not wrong until you start saying, "I believe this guy's statement is more true than that guy's because the first guy has an MD where as the other guy does not." That's avoiding the content of each person's arguments and looking solely at the credentials which has no bearing on the truth of the argument.

You don't have to study this stuff to be able to approach it with a skeptical mind. If someone with an MD cites research, demand to see the research. Don't take his word for it. Lots of people have an agenda. Do what I did: look through the research itself and critique it properly. Look for parts of it that are relevant or irrelevant, look for parts that may have led to the researchers attaining the results they did, and whether it's relevant to the topic at hand.

The issue arises when you say, "well I'm not going to believe you because you don't have an MD, and this guy does."

Teemo

Ya know, we can't all spend large amounts of our time becomming experts at every field. i personally have to keep up with Telecommunications and Networking. My users count on my knowing what I am talking about so they can concentrate on their jobs. It's not different here, I don't want to go to college and study nutrician and biology and statistics and chemistry for 12 years just so I can decide what I should be eating. Therefore I have to depend on the people who have put in the time to learn this stuff. So I have to research the best I can and throw my hat in with the expert who seems to know what they are talking about.

Is that so wrong?

Not at all. Let's be honest: most of us aren't nutritionists. However, I think one thing that is quite clear to anyone with a diligent interest in their health, thanks to the availability of research on the internet and the recent run of dietary fads and revolutions, is that far too many of the recommendations and nutritional aphorisms which we grew up with are plainly WRONG.

The food pyramid is one "well-known" example. The scare about fats (esp. from eggs) is another. Lesser known is that the total caloric expenditure in digesting foods is the same whether you have 1 large meal or 6 smaller meals.

Given all that, I think it's very fair to question what the "experts" are saying. Doubly so because anyone with access to a computer and a webpage or blog can post their opinions and pass it off as research... even though many of these webpages and blogs are simply parroting the same recommendations over and over again even when they have been proven to be without scientific and evidentiary support.

So yes: ultimately you have to throw your hat in with an "expert", or a school of thought. But it shouldn't be a personal affront if someone questions the conclusions/studies of your expert.

freerange

I didn't say I believed anyone because they have a MD or a BS after their name, YOU quoted Aragons credentials “with a MA” is if it matters, I simply offered you a higher certificate to worship.

I cannot believe that you aren't purposely trolling this forum.

(1) You quote selectively without context, as Aragon's MA is only introduced in this thread in response to a poster saying that he would rather listen to someone with a degree than an anonymous internet poster.

Statement: "I'd rather listen to someone with a degree than someone anonymous on the internet."

Response: "Aragon has a degree."

You then quote that as if the response is appealing to authority rather than directly responding to a question about Aragon's credentials. No one is saying you SHOULD listen to Aragon because he has a degree. The only context was IF you can only trust someone with a degree then Aragon has one. It's fair game as long as you can "catch" someone and make them look bad. The accuracy and truth of your quotes is apparently meaningless to you.

(2) When you are unable to support your claims with published studies you resort to name-calling and condescending sarcasm instead of actually addressing any of the criticisms of your position. See, for your example, your "null hippopotamus statement" and -- just a few posts above -- your post about Aragon/McGuff.

Exactly what are you trying to accomplish here?

Logical Fallacy, that there is an Awfully big word professor, maybe you should explain it to us children when you use those big words. Oops sorry Teemo, that was probably condensation again.

And again.

Name calling who did I call a name, really I don’t remember doing it, in fact I’m normally very careful to never actually call anyone a name, but I’m human and might have slipped, please point it out and I will apologize.

And since you two educated professors can’t seem to follow, here is my point, IF we are not appealing to authority, his statement should have read something along the lines of; Mr Aragon has published many original studies, studies I have read and can find no fault with, This is where I get my information, and why I trust him. He did not, he drought up his degree, I brought up another respected, degreed person, that I willing to bet has also published studies, and was told the degrees don’t matter that I was appealing to Local Fogherty.

freerange

Side step it all you like, you are still the one posting here. NO ONE here is posting Original research, we ALL are going by what others have done, and reported. Your dog isn’t any meaner than mine, everyone I have quoted is also well respected, obviously not by you, but that does little to diminish their work, in fact it does NOTHING to diminish it.

You are unreal. Teemo already laid it out - I only brought credentials into it when someone else did to show how that argument is lacking.

Not posting original research? http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/269934-how-and-why-carbs-and-a-high-carb-intake-will-keep-you-fat?page=9 - I cite 3 studies in that page. Have at it. I referenced this for you last page, too, when you asked. Did you forget already?

You did this work, wow, sorry I thought you just posted stuff other people did. Oh, wait do I need to spalin original to you,,,, I don't do I?

Teemo

And since you two educated professors can’t seem to follow, here is my point, IF we are not appealing to authority, his statement should have read something along the lines of; Mr Aragon has published many original studies, studies I have read and can find no fault with, This is where I get my information, and why I trust him. He did not, he drought up his degree, I brought up another respected, degreed person, that I willing to bet has also published studies, and was told the degrees don’t matter that I was appealing to Local Fogherty.

I already responded to that but I might as well do so again: he brought up Aragon's degree because he was asked (indirectly) whether anything he was saying or quoting was from someone with a degree. That's not an appeal to authority. THIS would be an appeal to authority:

Question: "Why should I trust Aragon?"
Response: "You should trust him because he has a degree."

THIS is NOT an appeal to authority:

Question: "Why should I trust you (or Aragon) over someone with a degree?"
Response: "Actually, Aragon has a degree."

Texas_Nana

It’s all I can do to stay under my calorie limit..I can’t imagine trying to juggle carbs/protein and etc!

Chuckw40

And since you two educated professors can’t seem to follow, here is my point, IF we are not appealing to authority, his statement should have read something along the lines of; Mr Aragon has published many original studies, studies I have read and can find no fault with, This is where I get my information, and why I trust him. He did not, he drought up his degree, I brought up another respected, degreed person, that I willing to bet has also published studies, and was told the degrees don’t matter that I was appealing to Local Fogherty.

I already responded to that but I might as well do so again: he brought up Aragon's degree because he was asked (indirectly) whether anything he was saying or quoting was from someone with a degree. That's not an appeal to authority. THIS would be an appeal to authority:

Question: "Why should I trust Aragon?"
Response: "You should trust him because he has a degree."

THIS is NOT an appeal to authority:

Question: "Why should I trust you (or Aragon) over someone with a degree?"
Response: "Actually, Aragon has a degree."

But why is an appeal to authority so wrong? It seems like a logical way to go about things really.

NYGoddess77

Lol...I wasn't trying to through credentials around like they mattered. I can care less about what conventional doctors have to say about anything. I've only made a statement saying that I like what Doug Mcguff and Radhia Gleis taught me about metabolism. When I came across Radhia's 3 part vid on carbs...i now know how they are metabolized and now know that I will stick to veggies instead of grains for my carb consumption. It works for me. Ketosis every now and then does too :happy:
I am sedentary except for normal daily household activities.
I've worked out to P90X last year before i've switched to the paleo diet. I've followed the nutrition guide to the T with the 500 cal deficit. I was always hungry and could'nt drop my body fat by my much at all.
I've given P90X another try, this time with my paleo diet and I went from 180 - 154. in 3 months. I am still sedentary and don't do much at all.
I was just shocked to actually find a doctor and nutritionist that thought outside the box...very rare.

freerange

I already responded to that but I might as well do so again: he brought up Aragon's degree because he was asked (indirectly) whether anything he was saying or quoting was from someone with a degree. That's not an appeal to authority. THIS would be an appeal to authority:

I watched her videos and can't believe you would trust a certified clinical nutricianist over some anonymous guy on the internet.

this is what was wrote, they were not talking about Aragon, they were talking about untz. Untz brought up appealing to authority, and how you should base EVERYTHING on the research. Again, for him to accuse me of it, he needs to be consistent, and not do it himself, he should have said, Yes I’m just some guy, but I’m going off of this research, research done by this guy, then maybe added he is also a certified nutritionist. Consistency, man consistency.

freerange

But why is an appeal to authority so wrong? It seems like a logical way to go about things really.

I know right? Why not start there, I much rather go up to a Doctor and ask them "hey doc it hurts when I do this" than I would some stranger on the street. But I have to agree with nutz, just because they are a Doctor doesn't mean they're not going to say, "hey stupid stop doing that"

Teemo

But why is an appeal to authority so wrong? It seems like a logical way to go about things really.

That's why it's a logical fallacy. It's fallacy when you argue that a statement is correct on the basis of the credientials/authoirty who stated it.

Less so is saying that a person's judgment or opinion should be given weight because of his position/credentials. Certainly being a doctor should be given weight if a doctor tells you that, say, eggs are bad. But saying that eggs are bad because a doctor told you so is where the fallacy lies.

In light of what we now know about nutrition, the fallacy should be obvious. Doctors across the world told you eggs were bad 20 years ago. Eating eggs would lead to a heart attack, they said. And they were DOCTORS.

I know right? Why not start there, I much rather go up to a Doctor and ask them "hey doc it hurts when I do this" than I would some stranger on the street. But I have to agree with nutz, just because they are a Doctor doesn't mean they're not going to say, "hey stupid stop doing that"

And if the doctor told you it was because you were pregnant? You would believe him, because he's a doctor, right? And a doctor couldn't possibly be wrong about anything medically-related?