Natural food better than vaccinations?

mrsmccullen07

Breastfeeding makes healthier infants and they grow into healthy adults and teenagers. Breastfeeding alone can reduce the risk of SIDS , Childhood Cancer , Obesity , Allergies and Asthma.

Not that the original topic had anything to do with breastfeeding, but I would like to chime in.

My nephew and daughter were both exclusively breast fed (my daughter for 11 months, my nephew for 6). My nephew passed away from SIDS and my daughter has asthma and eight different food allergies. If I have another child in the future I will still choose to BF for personal reasons, but I am not convinced it is all it is cracked up to be.

I am sorry to hear about your nephew (hugs). Breastfeeding has got to be what is best for mother and baby as it is natural ! And the studies didn't say that no breastfeed child had ever died of SIDS just that it reduced the likelihood of it occuring. I have also read about vaccinations and SIDS and most infants that die of SIDS die during 2-4months which is the time when most vaccinations start being adminstered. I am sure numerous studies have been done to prove their is no relation but in today's world where we can give vaccinations to "protect" against so many disease our doctors & scientists can not figure out what causes SIDS.

Again I am incredibly sorry for the loss your family suffered and I find it hard to debate this with you after you suffered such a tragedy.

servilia

I have asked this before and will ask it again. How many of you adults are vaccinated and receive your boosters? When herd immunity is mentioned they are not only referring to the children they are talking about the society as a whole. In order for us to have protection from "herd immunity" atleast 80% of the population would need to be up-to date on their vaccinations.

I personally do not believe in "herd immunity".

Yes I am up to date.
With all due respect, it doesn't really matter what you believe - you may not believe in it but that doesn't make it unreal. There are also people who believe the earth is flat. Edited to add - although it does matter to the extent that it causes you to make bad decisions..

Thank you for answering the question. I do not think that 80% of the population of the USA is up to date on vaccinations therefore how can I believe we are anywhere near protected by herd immunity? If you could stick to answering questions instead of being judgemental it would be wonderful ! I am not sure if you read my posts but if you did you would know that if I chose to vaccinate my son the chance of him suffering serious injury or even death is quite high therefore are you saying it would be a good decision for me to vaccinate my child ?

If in fact your son would be in danger if administered a vaccine then of course you should not give him those vaccines. But in the absence of a known danger like that, I believe children should be given vaccinations against serious and deadly diseases such as dyptheria, polio, etc.

SarabellPlus3

I am not not privy to anyone's medical records but my own (&my kids'), and yes I am up to date. I got my most recent vax after the birth of my last baby. The people I know well enough to know, are also up to date. I wish more people were up to date, but I don't really get this argument... Unless I'm embracing those people being behind on their shots, I'm not a hypocrite here. Besides, we're ignoring the obvious if we forget that schools are SO easily the biggest germ spreaders--- kids are the worst, trust me, I have 3. LOL we all know that kindergarten is a virtual petri dish compared to the average cubicle farm.

The seat belt is actually a good example. Yes, actually, as asked above, 'we' actually DO have the right to make you wear a seatbelt, international posters notwithstanding, in many states. And as far as I know, the US at large, as SCOTUS hasn't kicked those many state laws out. The reason it's a great example is because it seems like a decision people make on emotion sometimes. We've all known that teenaged guy who has the brilliant idea to never wear a seatbelt because he heard of a guy who heard of a guy who died BECAUSE of his seatbelt. I'm sure there are a few cases where the seat belt killed someone. But it's intellectually dishonest, not to mention dangerous, to only think of that part of the equation. The other part is how many the seat belt has saved. And thinking wisely, you just cant weigh those risk factors the same. Vaccines do so much more good than bad, even though there is a tiny element of danger. So if you are allergic to seatbelt and they pose life-threatening danger your doctor recognizes (or allergic the egg in vax, or had a dangerous reaction so that your dr does a medical exemption), I totally back you not wearing the belts (getting vaxed). Otherwise, simply by risk-mitigation, I can't understand the decision not to.

maybe my background as a student of statistics influences me. Or maybe it's because I majored in history and maybe I'm more apt than many in my generation to think of this topic through the eyes of generations past who saw their contemporaries killed and maimed by these diseases. It feels like it's easy for our generation to think they're not a threat because previous generations did the deeds that allowed us a childhood without the raveges of these diseases.

cat3nv

Wow! this thread is really long. Honestly I did not read all the comments.

My take is this: I believe if you eat raw, natural, organic, preferably grown in your back yard, foods you will be healthier than eating processed foods. I also believe your children should use their immune system first before giving meds to lower a fever. A fever reducer should not be given until the temp is above 102. A fever does have a purpose.

I am not against immunizations, but they should be more spread out like one poster said on the 1st page. Drugs have interactions with each other, and immunizations do too. Personally I believe autism may be one of those interactions.

That is my 2 cents for what is it worth.

sassyN1989

I do not keep up to date on vaccines anymore because I am allergic to some of them mostly the ones that have to be kept up. Unfortunately when I have children neither myself of my husband can take the pertussis vaccine. I plan on discussing options with a pediatrician and weighing the odds on my child taking that. As far as the usual vaccines I have no problem with my child taking them. However, as far as flu, HPV, and some other vaccines that are either newer or not as necessary I will base my decision on research. I don't think poorly of anyone who makes and informed decisions on how they raise and treat their child. Not everyone has the same circumstances.

Otherwise Happy Weight-loss!

mrsmccullen07

This thread defintly got me to thinking again and since my babys well child check up is next month I decided to research a little more. I am researching both sides of the vaccination debate and would really like links to articles that you can provide me !! I also would like to think that the parents that are choosing to vaccinate are also taking the time to reseach the other side of the arguement.

http://thinktwice.com/
http://www.thinktwice.com/school.htm

I have been linked to this website numerous times and it is very heartbreaking to read these stories.

In my family I just verified that my mother (born in 1967) and my father (born in 1956) have not received any vaccinations since reaching adulthood. Neither of them even remembering getting a vaccination nor do they have a shot record. All the females on my husbands side of the family are teachers and I know my SIL has had recent vaccinations but my MIL has not. My FIL also has not had any vaccinations since being an adult other than the tetanus he got 8 years ago. If I am correct in my defintion of "herd immunity" this would mean that my children are not protected by herd immunity at all since they spent 98% of their time with us or family members. My two nephews are vaccinated on schedule.

I realize what I am demonstrating is on a small scale but I believe it adequately represents the message I am trying to get across. It is not only unvaccinated children that "threaten" your children.

http://www.thenhf.com/article.php?id=1806

Again I am asking you to post link to articles you believe are important in your decision to vaccinate.

SarabellPlus3

As far as links and articles go, I guess if you're wanting my motivation, the CDC's website, the AMA's, as well as the WHO's, could be a good place to start. It's funny, my crunchier friends ALWAYS cite those organizations when encouraging people to BF (& I'm plenty crunchy, I BF my 3 kids for 1.5 years, then 3 years, now turning-2-tomorrow-and-still-going-strong, respectively), but suddenly those same friends are very anti-WHO on vax.
As I touched on before, too, my study of history has influenced my views on vax, so I suppose someplace like Wikipedia might be a good start for looking into how they have benefitted the world? I can't even begin to count or cite all of the research I've read on that in my years of schooling.

I know it's in vogue to mistrust doctors, but I feel I choose my doctor wisely, and I consider his advice pretty sage-- it weighs heavily with me, and I think that's wise of me. I'm a smart person, and I'm pretty highly educated, but I did not study biology as premed, then go to medical school, then go through all of the training and background my kids' pediatrician did. So when my oldest was born, I scanned websites, I studied articles, I read studies' abstracts and info, but it would be intellectually dishonest to act as though I view those all through the same medically-educated filter that he does; I do not.

I also want to say, if it's not clear, obviously I understand avoiding vaccinations if a person has a serious egg allergy, or had a serious dangerous reaction in the past. As I understand it, that is what medical exemptions are for, and I don't think a single person would object to medical objections. Those are the people we want to protect when we talk about herd immunity (& the small percentage of healthy folks who the vaccine wouldn't 'take' with for whatever reason). I also have no problem in the world with a delayed vaccination schedule. I TOTALLY understand the folks who worry about how many vaccinations are given all at once in the US recommended schedule. I understand the fear, particularly, that this could be a contributing factor to our auto-immunes. I considered delaying my kids', and breaking them up, but decided against it personally.

cocolo89

,,,

cocolo89

double

darklord48

This thread defintly got me to thinking again and since my babys well child check up is next month I decided to research a little more. I am researching both sides of the vaccination debate and would really like links to articles that you can provide me !! I also would like to think that the parents that are choosing to vaccinate are also taking the time to reseach the other side of the arguement.

http://thinktwice.com/
http://www.thinktwice.com/school.htm

I have been linked to this website numerous times and it is very heartbreaking to read these stories.

In my family I just verified that my mother (born in 1967) and my father (born in 1956) have not received any vaccinations since reaching adulthood. Neither of them even remembering getting a vaccination nor do they have a shot record. All the females on my husbands side of the family are teachers and I know my SIL has had recent vaccinations but my MIL has not. My FIL also has not had any vaccinations since being an adult other than the tetanus he got 8 years ago. If I am correct in my defintion of "herd immunity" this would mean that my children are not protected by herd immunity at all since they spent 98% of their time with us or family members. My two nephews are vaccinated on schedule.

I realize what I am demonstrating is on a small scale but I believe it adequately represents the message I am trying to get across. It is not only unvaccinated children that "threaten" your children.

http://www.thenhf.com/article.php?id=1806

Again I am asking you to post link to articles you believe are important in your decision to vaccinate.

Thank you for the links. I will read them later. I saw your reply to my earlier post, and understand your decision not to vaccinate your son due to the fact that he did have a reaction to the vaccines. I'm also glad that this discussion has you at least weighing the option of vaccinating your baby.

My family is on the opposite end of the spectrum from yours. My parents, siblings, cousins, aunts, uncles, and even grandparents are all vaccinated, and from the few that I've asked, they have kept their shots up to date. I asked my wife to check with her family, and they are in the same boat, except her grandmother is only vaccinated against Polio and Small Pox. None of us have had any side affects from vaccination, so for our families, it makes sense to continue trying vaccination.

I don't know if there are any scientific studies that show rates of reaction to immunization for siblings of someone who has had a reaction, but that might be worth the research for you.

mrsmccullen07

Thank you I have always been willing to research both sides and I am sure I always will read articles on either side. I still feel strongly that vaccinations are not for my children. I also will defintly look into studies that show any relation between siblings and vaccine reactions.

And thank you for agreeing to read those links I do not wish to "convert" anyone but I do like to be led to articles that prove my articles incorrect.

darklord48

Here is one study from the New England Journal of Medicine about Autism and Vaccines:
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa021134

A useful tool for researching is http://scholar.google.com/, which only shows scientific articles instead of websites claiming to be experts.

The site you provided does have articles referenced, which does lend it some credibility, but does not have a way for me to read those studies. I have been able to use scholar.google.com to view some of the articles that they reference, and so far the ones I've checked are studies on early versions of the vaccines, not the modern vaccines, which seem to have eliminated the issues.

I also tried to find articles about allergies and siblings, but the only studies I found were related to respiratory effects, not allergies in general.

mrsmccullen07

http://www.thinktwice.com/HET_study.pdf

darklord48

http://www.thinktwice.com/HET_study.pdf

The conclusion from that article:
"The US childhood immunization schedule requires 26 vaccine doses for infants aged less than 1 year, the most in the world, yet 33 nations have better IMRs. Using linear regression, the immunization schedules of these 34 nations were examined and a correlation coefficient of 0.70 (p < 0.0001) was found between IMRs and the number of vaccine doses routinely given to infants. When nations were grouped into five different vaccine dose ranges (12–14, 15–17, 18–20, 21–23, and 24–26), 98.3% of the total variance in IMR was explained by the unweighted linear regression model. These findings demonstrate a counter-intuitive relationship: nations that require more vaccine doses tend to have higher infant mortality rates. Efforts to reduce the relatively high US IMR have been elusive. Finding ways to lower preterm birth rates should be a high priority. However, preventing premature births is just a partial solution to reduce infant deaths. A closer inspection of correlations between vaccine doses, biochemical or synergistic toxicity, and IMRs, is essential. All nations—rich and poor, advanced and developing—have an obligation to determine whether their immunization schedules are achieving their desired goals."

One thing I notice, they don't study countries with less than 12 vaccine doses per year. So the issue may not be the vaccines, but the number of vaccines given. It is possible that if you were to perform the same study again, on 0-4, 5-8, 9-11, in addition to the dose ranges they tested, that an optimum number of doses per year would arise, allowing us to make a better informed decision about what vaccines to give and when.

mrsmccullen07

So I found two articles and I would like your thoughts on both.

http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/287/5/606.short - This one describes how chickenpox has decreased due to vaccination.Also cites that only 100 deaths occured from chicken pox in a year.

http://www.thinktwice.com/cpox.htm - Discussed reactions to the chickenpox vaccination.

I know chickenpox is not one that is most important but I am trying to find arguements for both sides.

darklord48

So I found two articles and I would like your thoughts on both.

http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/287/5/606.short - This one describes how chickenpox has decreased due to vaccination.Also cites that only 100 deaths occured from chicken pox in a year.

http://www.thinktwice.com/cpox.htm - Discussed reactions to the chickenpox vaccination.

I know chickenpox is not one that is most important but I am trying to find arguements for both sides.

The AMA article does show a decrease in hospitalization due to the illness, which I would say makes it worth having. Originally I was against vaccines for common childhood diseases such as chickenpox. Even seeing that the rate only is reduced by <1% I'm not sure I'll have my daughter vaccinated against it.

The other article does reference the CDC's findings, which I checked, and there are a number of minor, but common side effects such as pain and rash that I'm not sure are worth it. I wish the severe side effects had numbers so we would know if 1 in 100,000 have seizures, or if 1 in 1,000,000 do. That would make it easier to weigh against the benefits of the vaccine.

RobynC79

So I found two articles and I would like your thoughts on both.

http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/287/5/606.short - This one describes how chickenpox has decreased due to vaccination.Also cites that only 100 deaths occured from chicken pox in a year.

Peer-reveiwed article - actual science. Thus free from personal agenda, financial interests or political bias

http://www.thinktwice.com/cpox.htm - Discussed reactions to the chickenpox vaccination.

Website run by an anti-vaccine pyschologist with no current academic affilitation. Numbers quoted indicate that 2.7 severe reactions per 100,000 doses were reported. That is a severe complication rate of 0.027%, an extremely small number. (67.5/100,000, of which 4% (2.7) classes as severe).

Also quotes that "The disease confers permanent immunity; the child will not contract it again." without mentioning that shingles is a neurological complication that does indeed, recur, and can be debilitating.

i.e., my thoughts on these two articles: 1 = Science. 2 = Propaganda.

mrsmccullen07

Thank you for your thoughts everyone !! I have enjoyed this thread for the most part and my research into vaccinations will continue. I personally do not believe every article that the CDC publishes nor do I believe every article I read on anti-vax friendly websites. I do believe that we all must be responsible for our personal decisions.

skinnyack

A site I like is Journal of Natural Food and Health. If interested there are multiple articles regarding everything from the Amish (a good way for you to compare the olden days with now a days) to Autism to vaccines.

Two interesting links are http://journal.livingfood.us/2011/07/27/lying-with-statistics-swine-flu-vaccine-program-a-huge-success/

http://journal.livingfood.us/2011/04/13/age-of-autism-mercury-medicine-men-and-a-man-made-epidemic/- about half way through this article it gets to what we are more specifically talking about

I also like www.naturalnews.com- it's a bit more inflammatory though, so read calmly and don't get emotional. Just look for things you can check.

I was thinking about this last night and what I kept coming back to is
WHY DO WE GET SICK? Answer I came up with- Our immune system is compromised. I came up with 3 reasons our immune systems are compromised: Nutrient deficiency, Toxicity, Stress (physical or mental). I believe the function of a vaccine is to Stress our immune system with a virus so that we can learn it and create immunity against it- It's a FABULOUS idea! The intention is GOOD. But when we look at the reality of our nutrient deficient diets (conservatively 30+% of kids/adults are overweight/obese or in other countries are starving/malnourished), mixed with not only the toxicity of our environment, but the toxicity of the actual shot (whether it be the egg allergen or mercury or all the other crazy additives!), and then if that isn't enough pair it with the significant STRESSFUL event of being born, the first years of life, or the first day of school (showing up naked anyone?) or the mental stress we put on our children, the physical stress of having them sit still in a seat (this is really really not natural!), the pressures we face at any moment in our personal lives (divorce, finance, family illness, finding a new friend in the sandbox) OF COURSE there is going to be an outbreak. It's not about getting a vaccine, it's about the conditions we're requiring ourselves to live in that work against our IMMUNE system.

servilia

A site I like is Journal of Natural Food and Health. If interested there are multiple articles regarding everything from the Amish (a good way for you to compare the olden days with now a days) to Autism to vaccines.

Two interesting links are http://journal.livingfood.us/2011/07/27/lying-with-statistics-swine-flu-vaccine-program-a-huge-success/

http://journal.livingfood.us/2011/04/13/age-of-autism-mercury-medicine-men-and-a-man-made-epidemic/- about half way through this article it gets to what we are more specifically talking about

I also like www.naturalnews.com- it's a bit more inflammatory though, so read calmly and don't get emotional. Just look for things you can check.

I was thinking about this last night and what I kept coming back to is
WHY DO WE GET SICK? Answer I came up with- Our immune system is compromised. I came up with 3 reasons our immune systems are compromised: Nutrient deficiency, Toxicity, Stress (physical or mental). I believe the function of a vaccine is to Stress our immune system with a virus so that we can learn it and create immunity against it- It's a FABULOUS idea! The intention is GOOD. But when we look at the reality of our nutrient deficient diets (conservatively 30+% of kids/adults are overweight/obese or in other countries are starving/malnourished), mixed with not only the toxicity of our environment, but the toxicity of the actual shot (whether it be the egg allergen or mercury or all the other crazy additives!), and then if that isn't enough pair it with the significant STRESSFUL event of being born, the first years of life, or the first day of school (showing up naked anyone?) or the mental stress we put on our children, the physical stress of having them sit still in a seat (this is really really not natural!), the pressures we face at any moment in our personal lives (divorce, finance, family illness, finding a new friend in the sandbox) OF COURSE there is going to be an outbreak. It's not about getting a vaccine, it's about the conditions we're requiring ourselves to live in that work against our IMMUNE system.

Ummm I hope you're talking about the flu or something relatively minor. Living a stressfree life is not going to protect you from polio.