*Serious subject* - Protection while walk/jog/running in you

BrewerGeorge

I was totally behind you with this response until you mentioned that people who choose to plan ahead or carry a weapon are "living in fear". That is the biggest bull**** "anti-gun" argument out there. I carry a spare tire in my truck, not because live in fear of getting a flat tire, but so I DON'T have a to fear getting a flat tire. Being prepared helps remove the fears. Altering your life to the point you avoid certain areas or run while looking over your shoulder is living in fear.

Again, your brain is the best defense against being a victim. Stop badgering people who choose to use several means of protection. If you don't like it, don't worry about it. I'm no threat to you if I carry a gun.

I didn't take mer's comment that way. I think it's easy to be defensive about this, though, because we so often hear the guns=fear comment. The problem is the very significant disconnect in the mindset of the two sides of this issue. We see carrying a gun like carrying a flashlight or a spare tire. It's just another tool with a particular use that you keep around in case you need it. Many people, though, see guns as a "nuclear option" a VERY big deal with a lot of emotional baggage attached. IME, it's usually people without much (if any) experience with guns who have that viewpoint. It's hard to talk across that big a gap in perceptions.

BrewerGeorge

One more comment on the fear angle, then I'm going to bed...

Several people have said things about avoiding places where they thought they might be in danger. No kidding! We do that, too. Just because you choose to carry a weapon doesn't mean you go wading into trouble like Wyatt Earp. It means you are prepared to increase your options if the worst happens and all your other plans fail you. It gives you another choice if somebody attempts to victimize you other than hide/flee/plea.

I carried every day for many years, but I had let my permit lapse for the last several years because I currently live in a very safe place and because my wife, frankly, wasn't crazy about the idea. An incident at the Wisconsin state fair this summer changed my mind and caused me to renew my permit and begin carrying again. Several dozen people - regular families with kids - were attacked and beaten while leaving the fair by flash-mob type gangs of kids. People were getting pulled out of cars, knocked down, beaten, robbed for no predictable reason. These folks were just finishing their day at the fair in a safe neighborhood, in a safe city, in a well-lit public place with security and police all around. (The mob was large enough to overwhelm security.) Nobody could have predicted what happened, and nobody was prepared for it. That incident reminded me that sometimes bad things happen to good people no matter what they do or what common-sense preparations they take to avoid them. Would I have shot in that situation? No, probably not, as I don't think it would have been necessary. Random teens beating up people for fun aren't going to choose the guy escorting his family to their car with a gun drawn and a laser site sweeping around. They're going to go for obviously defenseless targets.

zoink66

I was totally behind you with this response until you mentioned that people who choose to plan ahead or carry a weapon are living in fear. That is the biggest bull**** "anti-gun" argument out there. I carry a spare tire in my truck, not because live in fear of getting a flat tire, but so I DON'T have a to fear getting a flat tire. Being prepared helps remove the fears. Altering your life to the point you avoid certain areas or run while looking over your shoulder is living in fear.

Again, your brain is the best defense against being a victim. Stop badgering people who choose to use several means of protection. If you don't like it, don't worry about it. I'm no threat to you if I carry a gun.

Wow. Okay.

If I came off as badgering I apologize. That was certainly not my intention. I totally agree that being prepared helps remove the fear of something, but I think there's quite a difference between a spare tire and a handgun. I think we probably just disagree over what "fear" means. Obviously, fear is very different from person to person. For me (and this is just me), when I choose to run during the day versus at night, that's being cautious, not fearful. But for another person, being cautious could very well mean carrying a gun.

I also think that this issue varies greatly from men to women. Although obviously there are women here who are very confident with firearms, I'm not one of them. Fact is, women are the ones most likely to be attacked, and those attackers are most likely to be men. Size and strength already put me at a disadvantage. Since I'm not comfortable with a gun, add on to that the surprise of an attack, and it's going to be pretty easy for someone to take a gun from me and use it against me. That's just how it is. My view as a female runner is going to be different from one's view as a male runner.

And this may surprise you, but I'm not anti-gun. I actually own three guns (a pistol and two rifles). I've taken a firearm & hunter safety courses, a self defense course specifically for women with firearms, and have been to the shooting range many times. I still don't feel comfortable with a gun. That's just me. So I make the choice to protect myself through non-weapon ways, like I listed before. Every person has the right to feel safe and secure, and if you live in America and carrying a gun gives you that feeling, than that is your right. I have no beef with that.

My post was just to provide some non-weapon safety options for women who are like me. People should always be concerned about safety, and I just wanted to put out there some other safety options that don't involve guns.

zoink66

You have to consider correlation because there can be no control in social sciences historical statics. I can show you that CCW permits have gone up and that violent crime rates have gone down, but I can't prove that the permits caused crime to go down because we can't go back in time and know what would have happened without the increased CCW permits. The best I can do, rigorously, is prove that crime does NOT go up as weapons ownership and concealed carry increased as the naysayers often predict. There is also the fact that states like California and New York which have not relaxed their gun laws have not enjoyed as much decrease in crime as states like Florida which pioneered the current round of shall-issue permit laws.

It's been about 5 years since my thesis, so I don't have a bunch of links handy. Forgive my posting wikipedia and the lack of primary sources, but you can start here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_Guns,_Less_Crime
http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?id=206&issue=007
http://www.nraila.org/issues/factsheets/read.aspx?ID=78

Thanks for these; I will check them out.
I know there are many theories floating about as to why crime has decreased in the US since the 1970s, and CCW permits may very well be one of them. But difficult to prove, as you said. I wonder if any researchers have tried to specifically control for all variables except gun ownership? I will have to do some research! It's an interesting (and controversial!) topic.

cutiepie2628

By the way it's supposed to say "in your neighborhood" but I ran out of room...

:noway: ***DISCLAIMER***!!!!!!! :noway:

PLEASE!!! If you are one of those people who feel so confident enough to w/j/r (walk/jog/run) in your neighborhood or around where you live WITHOUT any sort of personal protection, DO NOT POST SO HERE. It's not because I don't want to hear your side of the story, or I'm a big meany booger head. It's because whether you believe it or not, there's predators who could have access to these boards and could seek out those of us who are unprepared to defend ourselves. SO FOR YOUR SAFETY, if your comment would be along those lines, feel free to keep it to yourself.

Now...

With that being said, I am a firm believer in protection and self-defense. I have studied self-defense and I have used it in at least one situation. (He ended up with a broken nose and two black eyes.) When I go w/j/r, I generally have 1 to 3 weapons on me at any given time. My favorite is my trusty 26" ASP (for... ahem... "whacking away at loose dogs" - something my cop husband has drilled into my head in case another cop should see me and question me for carrying something... questionable) and I have two knives as backups. I don't always have all 3, but at least 2 keep me comfortable. I have also been told I am getting something for Christmas that comes in a small package and makes loud pops, yay for me!

The point of this is: if you are going to be putting yourself out there, regardless of the time of day, you need to have some sense of self-preservation and bring along a friend who whacks, zaps, cuts, and/or bangs and you need to have the proper training and certification/licensing to carry those friends. I'm not preaching, but I just read an article about a guy charged with 15 murders who lived 5 miles from my neighborhood. Linkage: http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Security-guard-called-predator-charged-in-2227974.php

I wanted to put this thread out there not only as a warning to those who might be naive enough to go without, but also to get ideas and input from others about defense items we love or love to hate. I'm just soooooooo looking forward to my Christmas present.

Happy cardio-ing.

Im like super happy that u have touched on this subject.... i too carry all kinds of stuff .. like rat tail combs and things of that nature... but ur so right when u say that u must be safe while trying to get fit... im with u all the way on this one sis....

bregalad5

Interesting topic. Bumping to read later.

natika33

By the way it's supposed to say "in your neighborhood" but I ran out of room...

:noway: ***DISCLAIMER***!!!!!!! :noway:

PLEASE!!! If you are one of those people who feel so confident enough to w/j/r (walk/jog/run) in your neighborhood or around where you live WITHOUT any sort of personal protection, DO NOT POST SO HERE. It's not because I don't want to hear your side of the story, or I'm a big meany booger head. It's because whether you believe it or not, there's predators who could have access to these boards and could seek out those of us who are unprepared to defend ourselves. SO FOR YOUR SAFETY, if your comment would be along those lines, feel free to keep it to yourself.

Now...

With that being said, I am a firm believer in protection and self-defense. I have studied self-defense and I have used it in at least one situation. (He ended up with a broken nose and two black eyes.) When I go w/j/r, I generally have 1 to 3 weapons on me at any given time. My favorite is my trusty 26" ASP (for... ahem... "whacking away at loose dogs" - something my cop husband has drilled into my head in case another cop should see me and question me for carrying something... questionable) and I have two knives as backups. I don't always have all 3, but at least 2 keep me comfortable. I have also been told I am getting something for Christmas that comes in a small package and makes loud pops, yay for me!

The point of this is: if you are going to be putting yourself out there, regardless of the time of day, you need to have some sense of self-preservation and bring along a friend who whacks, zaps, cuts, and/or bangs and you need to have the proper training and certification/licensing to carry those friends. I'm not preaching, but I just read an article about a guy charged with 15 murders who lived 5 miles from my neighborhood. Linkage: http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Security-guard-called-predator-charged-in-2227974.php

I wanted to put this thread out there not only as a warning to those who might be naive enough to go without, but also to get ideas and input from others about defense items we love or love to hate. I'm just soooooooo looking forward to my Christmas present.

Happy cardio-ing.

I think this is a rather serious topic and one that should be addressed, but I'd like to see more non-weapon choices posted on here. I understand that you don't want people who carry no protection to post here, but what about those that aren't legally allowed to carry anything? This is an international forum and there are plenty of people on here who live in countries where even a small knife is illegal to carry.

The only protection I carry is my key, but I try to follow advice like what mer posted. Unfortunately, I have to run at night because sunset is 4:30pm here! I feel rather safe running outside, otherwise I would join a gym, but I don't think it hurts to be prepared because you really do just never know.

Does anyone have any advice above and beyond what mer said?

The only thing I could think to add was to steer clear of anywhere someone might be hiding. I run in the middle of the street unless there is a car coming, so that if anyone does try to lunge for me, I have time to see them coming.

KokomoJoe

I go out on my own through downtown San Jose Costa Rica without any weapons, although they are very easy to get except for guns there. I have been given *kitten* for walking alone at night. I am very aware of my surroundings when I am out, especially if I am not familiar with the neighborhood. I would never consider going for a run armed to the teeth.

Kimmah

I know that this reply is a bit late, but my friend just showed me the topic. (noob to mfp, sorry!)

Personally, I'm ok with using whatever means necessary to make sure I get home to my family every night. Yes, I run with several backups with me. I jog with my son in a stroller, so it's super easy to carry my anti-dog mace (roaming dogs in the neighborhood have attacked before), my phone, and my last resort weapon. Due to unsavory neighbor activity, I feel that is necessary.

However, the very first class I took for self-defense is more of a self-preservation class. They teach women (sorry, guys) how to get away. I took it during college, and it was the best class I have ever taken.

http://www.rad-systems.com/

It's a class that teaches you how to get away from the creepers. They do use a coup baton (small hitting stick - no more than 8-12 inches long) but that is the ONLY weapon that they teach you to use. Makes a great key chain, too. I highly recommend it to all women out there. It's most often taught by the local police department, but the website has a class locator.

Take the class!!

ArroganceInStep

I'm a big, rather imposing-looking guy. I've travelled through some of the more dangerous parts of the world and gotten through alright. I learned at a young age to try not to stand out, to not wear things that make me look like a target, and to keep alert in dangerous situations. I'm also trained in a number of different martial arts.

I carry a sun tetsu with me just about everywhere I go. It's a samurai version of brass knuckles that looks a lot like a pen with a hoop attached to it. I can carry it with me with my luggage without concern and it won't get confiscated if I get patted down going into a club. You can also do some pretty nasty damage with it if you're trained to use it.

That being said, I understand the potential consequences of what I'm doing. If someone tries to mug me with a knife, I can defend myself pretty well with a sun tetsu, I'd put my chances at probably 75/25. If they've got a gun I have pretty fast hands, I figure I have about a 50/50 shot of disarming them before they shoot me. Problem is, if they have friends, my chances of survival drop drastically. At the end of the day, I have to determine if it's worth it to me because I know what's at stake. That's not even taking into account the fact that if some young punk tries to mug me and I maim or kill him in the process of defending myself, I could potentially face jail time depending on how things go in court.

Would I recommend that someone carry a weapon on them? It depends on the person. I can emphatically say though that I STRONGLY recommend that anyone planning to carry weapons carefully consider the possible consequences of doing so. That way if and when something happens, they've already thought things through and have made a decision with a clear head rather than in the heat of the moment.

3dogsrunning

"You can be as aware of your surroundings as you want, but that's not going to keep you from being attacked in most cases."

Yes, it can go a long way. Attackers are often looking for easy targets.

I think one of the biggest dangers is the false sense of security these weapons are providing. Statistics show that far too often the victim's weapon is used against them. If you don't know how and aren't prepared to use a weapon, it is useless. More than that, dangerous.

For those who carry bear spray/mace/OC spray (pepper spray), do you know how to use it properly? Do you know the limitations? Have you been exposed to it before? In many situations it is going to be useless, or worse, end you can end up contaminating yourself. What is your back up plan if that fails? OC spray isn't effective on everyone, even assuming it is properly used, like people who are very goal oriented or are under the influence.

I don't carry any weapons with me when I run. We do not have CCW permits here, it is illegal to carry concealed weapons like knives and OC spray and ASPs are not legal. Bear spray must be in a larger container that does not make it easy to run with. I choose to follow the law.
I am constantly aware of my surroundings and am trained in self defense. I stick to main roads, people know my plan and carry my phone. I also have 3 dogs to run with (go figure).

My only contribution to this thread is that if you do choose to carry weapons, train with them. Be comfortable. Know how to use them. And still have a backup plan.

wellbert

Carrying blades seems like a terrible idea. They will probably just end up in the hands of your assailant that already knows how to use them.

Pepperspray, tazer, these are good options IMO.

gashinshotan

It's ironic to me that a majority of the people I know who are big into self defense and carrying guns are Christian... if you really believed in God wouldn't you have enough faith in him to protect you? Ever since I became Christian I stopped carrying knives and have just trusted God.... and it has led me to have less confrontations with people on my runs because they can see I'm not suspicious of them... I dunno it just seems sad that I was able to walk anywhere safely in Syria (even a Palestinian refugee camp) in the dead of night and not have to fear anyone while in this country we're taught to view everyone as a potential enemy... it goes both ways though because Americans tend to be more violent towards one another than practically all first and second world nations (barring Russia) but its also because we care more about individual welfare than the common good so it leads us to be more defensive than we have to....

3dogsrunning

Carrying blades seems like a terrible idea. They will probably just end up in the hands of your assailant that already knows how to use them.

Pepperspray, tazer, these are good options IMO.

Both of which can have a number of limitations. Both may be useless if it is a surprise attack or from behind. Taser requires a specific distance for ideal effect. Close range it can be used as a stun gun which is pain compliance only, not incapacitating. Both require you actually hit a target area, the Taser is a little more forgiving. Those are just some examples.


I actually came back to touch on dogs - they are a deterrent only. Never depend on your dog to defend you regardless of any protective behavior you may believe you have seen unless the dog has specifically trained in protection.

brocantrs

Are you really encouraging people to go run with guns and knives?

Can't read?

Rain_Howard

Carrying blades seems like a terrible idea. They will probably just end up in the hands of your assailant that already knows how to use them.

Pepperspray, tazer, these are good options IMO.

Pepper spray is not always effective and can easily be blocked by glasses or a quick hand. Also, many people aren't affected by pepper spray. The same with a tazer or stun gun. A tazer can be ineffective through thick clothing.

My advice to women in general and even to some men. Find and take a self defense class. Many times collages and other places will offer them either free or very low cost. Learn how to use the tools you have to fight. I carry a gun. That only works if I see the threat in time and can get it out. The same is true of any other self defense item. However, learning to use your body can give you a weapon that you always have at the ready.

How many women have longer fingernails? These can be used as a nasty and effective weapon if you know how. As can your head, your feet and your knees.

One of the best weapons anyone has available to them at all times is their voice. Scream, make a lot of noise, get as much attention as you can.

Be safe, be healthy, be happy.

mreichard

I'm a non-gun owner. When I was a little kid, I played constantly with my parents' unsecured firearms, and I almost shot my big brother when I was 12 (he was LOUDLY breaking into our house late at night after getting drunk for the first time --- I thought it was a home invasion, as did my mom). Later in life, I worked out at a dojo where just about everyone but me had a gun in their gym bag (I was one of the few students who as not a cop or a CO), and it kind of freaked me out.

So, I'll probably never own guns. But, I've learned that gun owners come in all types and that most people are more responsible than my parents were.

I'm just posting to compliment the reasonable tone of just about everyone on this thread, particularly the gun owners.

BrewerGeorge

... Statistics show that far too often the victim's weapon is used against them. If you don't know how and aren't prepared to use a weapon, it is useless. More than that, dangerous.
...

That may be true for blades (I don't know) but it is not true for firearms. That's a myth.

When confronted by a firearm, a criminal will behave similarly to a "normal" person. If they are themselves armed, they will either disengage and go bother somebody safer for them, or they will defend themselves with their own weapon. If they are not armed, they are much more likely to flee; they don't want to be shot and there are 50 unarmed potential victims for every one that is armed. Worst case for the armed victim is that he will be disarmed, but the assailant still prefers to continue the attack with his own weapons/hands rather than an unfamiliar gun.

Johnny_Castle

Holly crap! WOW! you guys living down south need to PACK HEAT or carry AT LEAST 2 knives and/or a tactical baton just feel safe when literally going for a walk in the park?! I think you should also put on several bullet-proof vests and a radiation suit when going for a walk while you're at it. It sounds like great material for a Canadian stand-up comic. Here in Canada we only have to worry about squirrels and beavers so thankfully no need for all these things.

dad106

I take walks around our local lake and through our neighborhood when it's nice in the summer. I go during the daytime when it's well populated and there are lots of programs going on. The only real threat that I've encountered out there is a crazed goose... and yes there have been a few homeless people that hang around there, but none of them have ever bothered anyone.. they mainly sleep when they are out there.

I never think to bring knives or guns or anything like that for fear that they would get turned on me and I'd get injured instead of the person attacking me. I bring an ipod, my cellphone and my house key.. and thats about it. If need be, I could stab someone with my house key, but I don't think it would do much good.

Now that it's winter time and it gets darker earlier, I go to my gym. I hate the cold anyway, so I'd much rather be indoors then walking outside anyway..