"TONING" is a misconception in weight loss and fitness. A ra

bcattoes

I find the word "toning" annoying simply because it is often used to imply that muscles on a woman are ugly, unattractive or masculine...

THIS!!!!!!! It implies that their isn't enough "softness" to their physiques! You want to be "toned" then in truth you want to have more body fat. That's the truth.

I hate when people say that like it's a bad thing. I have no desire to drop my body fat too low. That doesn't mean I want to be overweight. Some people think voluptuous is sexy.

AZTrailRunner

I LOVE LOVE LOVE watching amateur, internet experts argue with people who actually eat, sleep, and breathe this *kitten* for a living. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

ninerbuff

I see people post this a lot, mostly hard core lifters and I must say it baffles me because surely you know what someone means when they say it. Don't you? I mean when someone says they want to be toned I know what they mean. They want more muscle definition. Why is someone using a technically incorrect, but common usage term, so irritating?

No. Most women DON'T want more muscle definition or to look "muscly". Muscle definition is when you can distinctly see the separations of your biceps and triceps and where the deltoids begin, etc. Most women want to look like Jennifer Aniston and not what Angela Bassett looked like when she portrayed Tina Turner. Angela had muscle definition. You could see the deltoids on her. You can't see the deltoid definition on Aniston.

Are you saying that muscles can never remain at their current state. They must always be changing by getting smaller or larger? I'm sorry but I just don't think that is true. And it would definitely be in direct contrast to the "women don't get bulky" argument becasuse it suggests that if a woman keeps lifting their muscles will continually grow and grow and grow.

If you read it I said "gets larger AND/OR stronger. And you need a SURPLUS to grow muscle and you know that. Just like when you lose skin, muscle is in constant change. It's miniscule compared to what you perceive, but that's the facts.

I use the word toned all the time and I've been chastised on here for doing so, but I when I use it I do mean that I don't want my body fat to drop too low, but I want some muscles beneath it. I like my curves but I understand that I need muscle and fat to keep them.

Just say you want to be "fit" then. I know I'm not going to change minds of people who want to refer to using "toned", but at least I can offer the right terminology.

bcattoes

I cringe when a woman WON'T pick up weights and lift heavy, claiming they don't what to get "bulky"....

Number 1...muscle don't make you bulky, fat does...
Number 2....ask the nearest man how hard it is to gain 5 lb of muscle.

AND even if you gained 5 lbs of muscle, compare that to 5 lb of fat...which one is bulkier??

It would depend on how much fat you had to begin with. But the OP suggests that you will get bulky if you continue to lift heavier and heavier.

ninerbuff

I cringe when a woman WON'T pick up weights and lift heavy, claiming they don't what to get "bulky"....

Number 1...muscle don't make you bulky, fat does...
Number 2....ask the nearest man how hard it is to gain 5 lb of muscle.

AND even if you gained 5 lbs of muscle, compare that to 5 lb of fat...which one is bulkier??

BAM!!!!!

ninerbuff

I cringe when a woman WON'T pick up weights and lift heavy, claiming they don't what to get "bulky"....

Number 1...muscle don't make you bulky, fat does...
Number 2....ask the nearest man how hard it is to gain 5 lb of muscle.

AND even if you gained 5 lbs of muscle, compare that to 5 lb of fat...which one is bulkier??

It would depend on how much fat you had to begin with. But the OP suggests that you will get bulky if you continue to lift heavier and heavier.

What? Where have I said that? You have a habit of trying to insinuate to others that us "bodybuilders" post nothing but "adding muscle", "getting bulky", etc.
Quote where I made that statement.

Jeff92se

IMHO only here. Oylmpic lifts are highly technical moves. I've never done alot of these lifts but it's not all about getting stronger. It's alot about learning the right technique to do the lift properly and efficently. I'm not sure if Olympic lifting is the best example. Even powerlifting has it's technical aspects that atribute to higher lifts.

They are technical, but particularly at the olympic level having the right form has to a large degree been 'worked out' by everyone. There's different philosophies on how best to do things and such, but they also focus to a very high degree on increasing muscle strength without building mass and being put into a higher weight class.

At that level, I don't think you can keep getting stronger w/o gaining mass. You end up having to cut down your bodyfat to lower levels each time. Or you become more efficent at your lifts. Or try to develope your fast twitch muscles more? I know these lifts are explosive in nature (so is powerlifing).

I've seen some damn strong light powerlifters. I guy I know completed at 125lbs but lifted over 300lbs on his bench. But his chest was huge. He put up some nice squat and dead numbers too. But even he had to go up to 125lbs from 114lbs at some point.

I've never seen an advanced powerlifter consistently keep making signifcant strength improvements w/o putting on some muscle mass. Forcing them to cut down to a lower bodyfat % or move up.

ninerbuff

There really should be an eye rolling smiley...
have fun with your pointless rant. im going to be productive elsewhere. .

Yep you didn't want to hear it. Have fun building long lean muscles.

bcattoes

I cringe when a woman WON'T pick up weights and lift heavy, claiming they don't what to get "bulky"....

Number 1...muscle don't make you bulky, fat does...
Number 2....ask the nearest man how hard it is to gain 5 lb of muscle.

AND even if you gained 5 lbs of muscle, compare that to 5 lb of fat...which one is bulkier??

It would depend on how much fat you had to begin with. But the OP suggests that you will get bulky if you continue to lift heavier and heavier.

What? Where have I said that? You have a habit of trying to insinuate to others that us "bodybuilders" post nothing but "adding muscle", "getting bulky", etc.
Quote where I made that statement.

You said muscles could only get bigger/improve or get smaller/waste away. So I assumed that if one kept lifting heavier they would be in the continually getting bigger category. It's not something I agree with, but it did seem that was what you were implying. What did you mean?

Edited to add quote as requested:

Your muscle is either growing and/or getting stronger or getting smaller and weaker. That's it.

ninerbuff

IMHO only here. Oylmpic lifts are highly technical moves. I've never done alot of these lifts but it's not all about getting stronger. It's alot about learning the right technique to do the lift properly and efficently. I'm not sure if Olympic lifting is the best example. Even powerlifting has it's technical aspects that atribute to higher lifts.

I just gave a quick example. Powerlifters usually do weight class limits too.

tigersword

I love when people take the time to respond about how pointless a thread is and how they are going to be "productive" elsewhere. Irony at it's best.

ninerbuff

This. All i heard of that rant was blah blah blah...just saying.
who really cares if someone says "toned/toning/tone"? geez!

Obviously I do. Not that it's any concern of yours. It's kinda like when a pilates instructor says you build long lean muscle, when in truth you can't change the length of your muscle at all. But of course no one in pilates wants to hear that. Carry on.

There really should be an eye rolling smiley...
have fun with your pointless rant. im going to be productive elsewhere. .

I'm going with you my friend :-)

Bye!

tigersword

I cringe when a woman WON'T pick up weights and lift heavy, claiming they don't what to get "bulky"....

Number 1...muscle don't make you bulky, fat does...
Number 2....ask the nearest man how hard it is to gain 5 lb of muscle.

AND even if you gained 5 lbs of muscle, compare that to 5 lb of fat...which one is bulkier??

It would depend on how much fat you had to begin with. But the OP suggests that you will get bulky if you continue to lift heavier and heavier.

What? Where have I said that? You have a habit of trying to insinuate to others that us "bodybuilders" post nothing but "adding muscle", "getting bulky", etc.
Quote where I made that statement.

You said muscles could only get bigger/improve or get smaller/waste away. So I assumed that if one kept lifting heavier they would be in the continually getting bigger category. It's not something I agree with, but it did seem that was what you were implying. What did you mean?

Edited to add quote as requested:

Your muscle is either growing and/or getting stronger or getting smaller and weaker. That's it.

I guess you don't understand what the word "or" means, then?

Jeff92se

IMHO only here. Oylmpic lifts are highly technical moves. I've never done alot of these lifts but it's not all about getting stronger. It's alot about learning the right technique to do the lift properly and efficently. I'm not sure if Olympic lifting is the best example. Even powerlifting has it's technical aspects that atribute to higher lifts.

I just gave a quick example. Powerlifters usually do weight class limits too.

Powerlifters have weight classes unless you complete in unlimited.

ninerbuff

I hate when people say that like it's a bad thing. I have no desire to drop my body fat too low. That doesn't mean I want to be overweight. Some people think voluptuous is sexy.

Where did I say it was a bad thing? All I did was describe the actual truth of what the description of "toned" is.

ninerbuff

At that level, I don't think you can keep getting stronger w/o gaining mass. You end up having to cut down your bodyfat to lower levels each time. Or you become more efficent at your lifts. Or try to develope your fast twitch muscles more? I know these lifts are explosive in nature (so is powerlifing).

I've seen some damn strong light powerlifters. I guy I know completed at 125lbs but lifted over 300lbs on his bench. But his chest was huge. He put up some nice squat and dead numbers too. But even he had to go up to 125lbs from 114lbs at some point.

I've never seen an advanced powerlifter consistently keep making signifcant strength improvements w/o putting on some muscle mass. Forcing them to cut down to a lower bodyfat % or move up.

At that level "enhancement" is going on too and I'm more than sure this helps with stronger lifts.

Jeff92se

What is going on? I'm not understanding your point.

PB67

IMHO only here. Oylmpic lifts are highly technical moves. I've never done alot of these lifts but it's not all about getting stronger. It's alot about learning the right technique to do the lift properly and efficently. I'm not sure if Olympic lifting is the best example. Even powerlifting has it's technical aspects that atribute to higher lifts.

They are technical, but particularly at the olympic level having the right form has to a large degree been 'worked out' by everyone. There's different philosophies on how best to do things and such, but they also focus to a very high degree on increasing muscle strength without building mass and being put into a higher weight class.

At that level, I don't think you can keep getting stronger w/o gaining mass. You end up having to cut down your bodyfat to lower levels each time. Or you become more efficent at your lifts. Or try to develope your fast twitch muscles more? I know these lifts are explosive in nature (so is powerlifing).

I've seen some damn strong light powerlifters. I guy I know completed at 125lbs but lifted over 300lbs on his bench. But his chest was huge. He put up some nice squat and dead numbers too. But even he had to go up to 125lbs from 114lbs at some point.

I've never seen an advanced powerlifter consistently keep making signifcant strength improvements w/o putting on some muscle mass. Forcing them to cut down to a lower bodyfat % or move up.

Is there a limit to how much strength you can gain without adding muscle? Yes.

Is anyone who is not an elite athlete ever going to reach this limit? No.

bcattoes

I cringe when a woman WON'T pick up weights and lift heavy, claiming they don't what to get "bulky"....

Number 1...muscle don't make you bulky, fat does...
Number 2....ask the nearest man how hard it is to gain 5 lb of muscle.

AND even if you gained 5 lbs of muscle, compare that to 5 lb of fat...which one is bulkier??

It would depend on how much fat you had to begin with. But the OP suggests that you will get bulky if you continue to lift heavier and heavier.

What? Where have I said that? You have a habit of trying to insinuate to others that us "bodybuilders" post nothing but "adding muscle", "getting bulky", etc.
Quote where I made that statement.

You said muscles could only get bigger/improve or get smaller/waste away. So I assumed that if one kept lifting heavier they would be in the continually getting bigger category. It's not something I agree with, but it did seem that was what you were implying. What did you mean?

Edited to add quote as requested:

Your muscle is either growing and/or getting stronger or getting smaller and weaker. That's it.

I guess you don't understand what the word "or" means, then?

Um, yeah. That's why I assumed it had to be one OR the other. You make it sound as if it's impossible to maintain the current state of muscle, which implies that if you keep increasing the weight the muscle would continue to grow and that would eventually be bulky. The "OR" is to get smaller, which seems unlikely if one were to keep lifting heavier. I don't see a middle ground in your post.

Jeff92se

IMHO only here. Oylmpic lifts are highly technical moves. I've never done alot of these lifts but it's not all about getting stronger. It's alot about learning the right technique to do the lift properly and efficently. I'm not sure if Olympic lifting is the best example. Even powerlifting has it's technical aspects that atribute to higher lifts.

They are technical, but particularly at the olympic level having the right form has to a large degree been 'worked out' by everyone. There's different philosophies on how best to do things and such, but they also focus to a very high degree on increasing muscle strength without building mass and being put into a higher weight class.

At that level, I don't think you can keep getting stronger w/o gaining mass. You end up having to cut down your bodyfat to lower levels each time. Or you become more efficent at your lifts. Or try to develope your fast twitch muscles more? I know these lifts are explosive in nature (so is powerlifing).

I've seen some damn strong light powerlifters. I guy I know completed at 125lbs but lifted over 300lbs on his bench. But his chest was huge. He put up some nice squat and dead numbers too. But even he had to go up to 125lbs from 114lbs at some point.

I've never seen an advanced powerlifter consistently keep making signifcant strength improvements w/o putting on some muscle mass. Forcing them to cut down to a lower bodyfat % or move up.

Is there a limit to how much strength you can gain without adding muscle? Yes.

Is anyone who is not an elite athlete ever going to reach this limit? No.

Was it clear which the OP was referring to? No.

Did the conversation bend toward elite Oymplic lifters in the course of the conversation? Yes

A better question regardless of if you are at at elite level or not is this. How does one perform these lifts that are basically muscle mass builders and prevent additional muscle mass? Assuming one is trying to gain strength.

ninerbuff

You said muscles could only get bigger/improve or get smaller/waste away. So I assumed that if one kept lifting heavier they would be in the continually getting bigger category. It's not something I agree with, but it did seem that was what you were implying. What did you mean?

Edited to add quote as requested:

Your muscle is either growing and/or getting stronger or getting smaller and weaker. That's it.

Re read it or get an eye exam. You don't see the "or getting stronger there"? Currently I lift heavy as I can. Unfortunately it's not as much as I used to lift so I'm more than sure I've been losing muscle as my strength has slowly been diminishing. But by my physique, you can't really tell I'm losing muscle. And this happens as you age. It's hard to get stronger when your natural hormones start to diminish. So sad to say that get weaker and smaller is the direction I'm headed. But I will continue to lift as much as I can to try to slow down the process more.

bcattoes

I hate when people say that like it's a bad thing. I have no desire to drop my body fat too low. That doesn't mean I want to be overweight. Some people think voluptuous is sexy.

Where did I say it was a bad thing? All I did was describe the actual truth of what the description of "toned" is.

I didn't say you said it was a bad thing, but that you said it like it was. But perhaps I inferred a tone from the multitide of exclamation points that perhaps you did not mean. In which case, you have my apology.

ninerbuff

Um, yeah. That's why I assumed it had to be one OR the other. You make it sound as if it's impossible to maintain the current state of muscle, which implies that if you keep increasing the weight the muscle would continue to grow and that would eventually be bulky. The "OR" is to get smaller, which seems unlikely if one were to keep lifting heavier. I don't see a middle ground in your post.

No the "OR" was "getting stronger". Again if you are in calorie maintenance or calorie deficit, it's practically impossible to gain or grow muscle. To gain weight you have to be in surplus.

ninerbuff

A better question regardless of if you are at at elite level or not is this. How does one perform these lifts that are basically muscle mass builders and prevent additional muscle mass? Assuming one is trying to gain strength.

Mass building needs calorie surpluses to gain weight. You cannot gain weight from maintenance or deficit. Also with the exception of some offseason training, most power and Olympic lifters do singles, doubles and triples along with training techniques that work to increase strength and not mass. Isometric training, training with chains and bands, progressive resistance etc.

Jeff92se

A better question regardless of if you are at at elite level or not is this. How does one perform these lifts that are basically muscle mass builders and prevent additional muscle mass? Assuming one is trying to gain strength.

Mass building needs calorie surpluses to gain weight. You cannot gain weight from maintenance or deficit. Also with the exception of some offseason training, most power and Olympic lifters do singles, doubles and triples along with training techniques that work to increase strength and not mass. Isometric training, training with chains and bands, progressive resistance etc.

IMHO, you can do small/ support muscle training to help your lifts. But again, even at an advanced amatuar level, you're going to have to accept weight gains if you want to increase your lifts. I still consider singles, doubles and triples as low rep, high weight muscle mass builders.

I've never come accross a powerlifter forgoing their main heavy lift training to do things like bands in order to try to up their 1 rep lifts w/o gaining weight. And I've trained with some that hold records in their respective classes.

PB67

A better question regardless of if you are at at elite level or not is this. How does one perform these lifts that are basically muscle mass builders and prevent additional muscle mass? Assuming one is trying to gain strength.

Simple. Keep your caloric intake at or below maintenance.

brit49

bump

agthorn

There's an awful lot of people in this thread confusing muscle endurance (i.e "getting stronger") with muscle size (i.e. "getting bigger"). You CAN do one without the other.

Jeff92se

A better question regardless of if you are at at elite level or not is this. How does one perform these lifts that are basically muscle mass builders and prevent additional muscle mass? Assuming one is trying to gain strength.

Simple. Keep your caloric intake at or below maintenance.

Then you'll just succeed at mainting your strength, not necessarily gaining it. Unless one is just starting out lifting. Which is not really what we've been discussing

ninerbuff

IMHO, you can do small/ support muscle training to help your lifts. But again, even at an advanced amatuar level, you're going to have to accept weight gains if you want to increase your lifts. I still consider singles, doubles and triples as low rep, high weight muscle mass builders.

I've never come accross a powerlifter forgoing their main heavy lift training to do things like bands in order to try to up their 1 rep lifts w/o gaining weight. And I've trained with some that hold records in their respective classes.

You've never seen powerlifting bands? Really? They go on the ends of an Olympic bar on both sides and are connected to the bench. They increase resistance on the concentric movement of any lift.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2xY7Mgsb7s