"TONING" is a misconception in weight loss and fitness. A ra
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How would increasing the resistance via bands be different than adding weight? Unless the bands are working the support muscles. That guy doesn't look to be anywhere near his 1 rep max0
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I don't think we're confusing, I think we're asking. LOL That's why it's hard to ask a question here-- people either take things personally or overreact to them.There's an awful lot of people in this thread confusing muscle endurance (i.e "getting stronger") with muscle size (i.e. "getting bigger"). You CAN do one without the other.
I think I was the first person to ask in this thread, and it doesn't seem intuitive to me that muscles "get stronger" without gaining any mass (weight?). I'm kind of curious about the mechanics of that. I thought when we did weight training, we tore tiny rips in our muscles, which then rebuilt themselves. So, when we're on a deficit and not GAINING muscle, but still getting stronger, are those repaired rips just held tighter, but not rebuilt larger?
These are QUESTIONS. I'm not trying to school anyone, I'm asking, and I'll preemptively throw out that I'm not an idiot, because that's usually where all the responses seem to go.0 -
Well muscle endurance is just that.....endurance. To make a muscle stronger, you have to progressive overload it. You can get stronger without getting bigger. The training and eating is what makes the difference between the 2.There's an awful lot of people in this thread confusing muscle endurance (i.e "getting stronger") with muscle size (i.e. "getting bigger"). You CAN do one without the other.0 -
Hold a band. As you stretch it the tension increases the resistance. As you press a weight and the bands stretch, they increase the resistance. It's not as easy as you think when you actually try it. Where you can rep out 10 reps easy with 135lbs, with bands on them you would see that it's much harder.How would increasing the resistance via bands be different than adding weight? Unless the bands are working the support muscles. That guy doesn't look to be anywhere near his 1 rep max
The bands there seem light compared to the ones I see powerlifters and Olympic lifters use. They are usually much thicker.0 -
Well muscle endurance is just that.....endurance. To make a muscle stronger, you have to progressive overload it. You can get stronger without getting bigger. The training and eating is what makes the difference between the 2.There's an awful lot of people in this thread confusing muscle endurance (i.e "getting stronger") with muscle size (i.e. "getting bigger"). You CAN do one without the other.
Okay, how would one accomplish this? I'm not arguing because this is pretty much what I want to do. I'm running at a slight deficit, doing free weight bench, deads, squats, power cleans etc etc etc. I'm super setting alot of the big/small muscle lifts to get out of the gym faster and to keep my HR up. But I'm not supersetting the same groups. I'll bench, then do pull ups. Dumbell bench and dumbell rows etc. Squat then shoulder press etc.0 -
Hold a band. As you stretch it the tension increases the resistance. As you press a weight and the bands stretch, they increase the resistance. It's not as easy as you think when you actually try it. Where you can rep out 10 reps easy with 135lbs, with bands on them you would see that it's much harder.How would increasing the resistance via bands be different than adding weight? Unless the bands are working the support muscles. That guy doesn't look to be anywhere near his 1 rep max
The bands there seem light compared to the ones I see powerlifters and Olympic lifters use. They are usually much thicker.
I'm not saying it's easy. I'm saying it's similar to just adding more weight. although the bands increase resistance in a non-linear fashion, I fail to see how that wouldn't induce a muscle mass increase due to the increased load on the muscle0 -
You're rebuilding in the muscle yes. But not in the sense that you're gaining muscle. Contractions of muscle use force and if you can increase the force, the contractions become stronger. When the contractions are stronger, you can lift more weight on an exercise.I think I was the first person to ask in this thread, and it doesn't seem intuitive to me that muscles "get stronger" without gaining any mass (weight?). I'm kind of curious about the mechanics of that. I thought when we did weight training, we tore tiny rips in our muscles, which then rebuilt themselves. So, when we're on a deficit and not GAINING muscle, but still getting stronger, are those repaired rips just held tighter, but not rebuilt larger?
These are QUESTIONS. I'm not trying to school anyone, I'm asking, and I'll preemptively throw out that I'm not an idiot, because that's usually where all the responses seem to go.0 -
Thank you for answering! (and the other one, too!)0
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What's your current rep range and sets per exercise?Okay, how would one accomplish this? I'm not arguing because this is pretty much what I want to do. I'm running at a slight deficit, doing free weight bench, deads, squats, power cleans etc etc etc. I'm super setting alot of the big/small muscle lifts to get out of the gym faster and to keep my HR up. But I'm not supersetting the same groups. I'll bench, then do pull ups. Dumbell bench and dumbell rows etc. Squat then shoulder press etc.0 -
What's your current rep range and sets per exercise?Okay, how would one accomplish this? I'm not arguing because this is pretty much what I want to do. I'm running at a slight deficit, doing free weight bench, deads, squats, power cleans etc etc etc. I'm super setting alot of the big/small muscle lifts to get out of the gym faster and to keep my HR up. But I'm not supersetting the same groups. I'll bench, then do pull ups. Dumbell bench and dumbell rows etc. Squat then shoulder press etc.
Just started a 4-5 rep range. 3-4 sets each. Triple setting 3 seperate sets of exercises.
Although I'm not going to go down to a 4-5 rep range with the squats and deads. I'd have to get into the 350lbs range for the dead and I don't really have an interest to go that heavy anymore. At 315lbs, it was fairly easy at 5-6 reps but my grip strength is lacking. I start losing the grip on the bar before my lift strength gives out.0 -
At that level, I don't think you can keep getting stronger w/o gaining mass. You end up having to cut down your bodyfat to lower levels each time. Or you become more efficent at your lifts. Or try to develope your fast twitch muscles more? I know these lifts are explosive in nature (so is powerlifing).
I've seen some damn strong light powerlifters. I guy I know completed at 125lbs but lifted over 300lbs on his bench. But his chest was huge. He put up some nice squat and dead numbers too. But even he had to go up to 125lbs from 114lbs at some point.
I've never seen an advanced powerlifter consistently keep making signifcant strength improvements w/o putting on some muscle mass. Forcing them to cut down to a lower bodyfat % or move up.
100% correct.
My point was just that one of their goals was to maximize muscle strength with as little mass as possible. I did not mean to insinuate that that was the only thing they cared about, just one of many. There's only so low they can cut while still giving good results, just like there's only so high they can bulk while still giving good results. They don't just max out in one direction or the other, they shoot for the perfect balance to maximize their performance. So although it's not the only one, muscle mass IS a factor in that equation.0 -
A better question regardless of if you are at at elite level or not is this. How does one perform these lifts that are basically muscle mass builders and prevent additional muscle mass? Assuming one is trying to gain strength.
Simple. Keep your caloric intake at or below maintenance.
Then you'll just succeed at mainting your strength, not necessarily gaining it. Unless one is just starting out lifting. Which is not really what we've been discussing
Seriously, where are you getting your information? Technique and neurological factors play a huge role in strength, not just cross-sectional area.
Counterexample: Bodybuilders are often weaker than much smaller strength athletes. If strength = size, this would not be the case.0 -
I don't think we're confusing, I think we're asking. LOL That's why it's hard to ask a question here-- people either take things personally or overreact to them.There's an awful lot of people in this thread confusing muscle endurance (i.e "getting stronger") with muscle size (i.e. "getting bigger"). You CAN do one without the other.
I think I was the first person to ask in this thread, and it doesn't seem intuitive to me that muscles "get stronger" without gaining any mass (weight?). I'm kind of curious about the mechanics of that. I thought when we did weight training, we tore tiny rips in our muscles, which then rebuilt themselves. So, when we're on a deficit and not GAINING muscle, but still getting stronger, are those repaired rips just held tighter, but not rebuilt larger?
These are QUESTIONS. I'm not trying to school anyone, I'm asking, and I'll preemptively throw out that I'm not an idiot, because that's usually where all the responses seem to go.
Ropes lifting a box. Say you have 4 ropes on a pulley. That's your muscle. Now you want to lift a box, so you attach one of the ropes to the box and let the others hang free. That's an untrained muscle. Muscle conditioning is adding one rope to the box at a time until you successfully lift the box. The ropes themselves aren't getting any bigger, but they are being used more efficiently to get the job done. Now if you attach all 4 ropes and still can't lift the box, you have to go out and buy more rope. Now the rope IS getting bigger, which is muscle growth.
Hopefully that example lets you see that there is quite a bit of room on conditioning a muscle to gain strength before it has to grow larger.0 -
Tomato / tomAto
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Pretty much.
When I say toned, yea I mean less fat and tighter physique. When I say not bulky, I do not mean less fat, I mean I don't want huge muscles, I do not want my muscles to GROW too much. I do not want to look like the hulk. or Chyna.
I would LOVE to have China's early days body. Not once she really got into it and started looking manly lol but when she was mainly ringside for looks! Wowwwza lol Rippped, but not too bulky and still feminine
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A better question regardless of if you are at at elite level or not is this. How does one perform these lifts that are basically muscle mass builders and prevent additional muscle mass? Assuming one is trying to gain strength.
Simple. Keep your caloric intake at or below maintenance.
Then you'll just succeed at mainting your strength, not necessarily gaining it. Unless one is just starting out lifting. Which is not really what we've been discussing
Seriously, where are you getting your information? Technique and neurological factors play a huge role in strength, not just cross-sectional area.
Counterexample: Bodybuilders are often weaker than much smaller strength athletes. If strength = size, this would not be the case.
I'm not sure if you are taking my comments in a vacuum or reading ALL my comments for proper context. I mentioned technique more than once And I've mentioned that after a point, one is going to have to accept more muscle mass in order to lift more.
Your case of the big bodybuilders is somewhat invalid. They want to get big, not strong. But they do get stronger in the process. Also that comparison is already accounted for in the post preceeding this one.(ie.. technique, practicing the specific movement)0 -
A better question regardless of if you are at at elite level or not is this. How does one perform these lifts that are basically muscle mass builders and prevent additional muscle mass? Assuming one is trying to gain strength.
Simple. Keep your caloric intake at or below maintenance.
Then you'll just succeed at mainting your strength, not necessarily gaining it. Unless one is just starting out lifting. Which is not really what we've been discussing
Seriously, where are you getting your information? Technique and neurological factors play a huge role in strength, not just cross-sectional area.
Counterexample: Bodybuilders are often weaker than much smaller strength athletes. If strength = size, this would not be the case.
I'm not sure if you are taking my comments in a vacuum or reading ALL my comments for proper context. I mentioned technique more than once And I've mentioned that after a point, one is going to have to accept more muscle mass in order to lift more.
And you must have missed my post that said that this does not happen until you reach the elite level.0 -
Although correlated, size does not necessarily mean strength and vice versa.
You can still get stronger eating at maintenance or below (even with technique being the same), but in order to build muscle mass (hypertrophy), one needs to eat over maintenance.
Edit: This does not include the newbs and extremely overweight.0 -
A better question regardless of if you are at at elite level or not is this. How does one perform these lifts that are basically muscle mass builders and prevent additional muscle mass? Assuming one is trying to gain strength.
Simple. Keep your caloric intake at or below maintenance.
Then you'll just succeed at mainting your strength, not necessarily gaining it. Unless one is just starting out lifting. Which is not really what we've been discussing
Seriously, where are you getting your information? Technique and neurological factors play a huge role in strength, not just cross-sectional area.
Counterexample: Bodybuilders are often weaker than much smaller strength athletes. If strength = size, this would not be the case.
I'm not sure if you are taking my comments in a vacuum or reading ALL my comments for proper context. I mentioned technique more than once And I've mentioned that after a point, one is going to have to accept more muscle mass in order to lift more.
And you must have missed my post that said that this does not happen until you reach the elite level.
And you must have missed where I think even an advanced amataur would have to deal with this issue0 -
Although correlated, size does not necessarily mean strength and vice versa.
You can still get stronger eating at maintenance or below (even with technique being the same), but in order to build muscle mass (hypertrophy), one needs to eat over maintenance.
Edit: This does not include the newbs and extremely overweight.
Okay I'll bite. how long can one keep this up? Indefinately? That has NOT been my experience during the years I competed. Not only with myself but with others that were alot better than I was. And they had a GREAT incentive to lift at the lightest weight class possible.0 -
Um, yeah. That's why I assumed it had to be one OR the other. You make it sound as if it's impossible to maintain the current state of muscle, which implies that if you keep increasing the weight the muscle would continue to grow and that would eventually be bulky. The "OR" is to get smaller, which seems unlikely if one were to keep lifting heavier. I don't see a middle ground in your post.
My contention with what your saying is that it doesn't take into account diminishing returns. Is there a theoretical maximum that your body can bulk to? Yes. Even if you lifted for all eternity you will never have biceps the size of the sun.
As you get closer to your body's theoretical limit, those gains come slower and slower.
I would argue that even elite atheletes don't reach their max, they just get really darn close to it. For the best power lifter in the world (and I'm just making up numbers here to make a point) it might take 6 months to increase their max by 5 lbs. John Doe on the street who has never squatted before in his lift might make an improvement 20 times that in the same time frame. We all age and that puts a time limit on the gains we can hope for (I might be physically capable of upping my max lift in an exercise by 400 lbs, but if it would take me 30 years of lifting to get to that, those 30 years of aging will change the speed at which I experience gains so I might only be able to increase it by 50 lbs).
Things are ALWAYS changing, though sometimes it's at a level too small to measure. To maintain the same level of strength over times technically means you are increasing your strength since as you age you lose strength.0 -
Okay I'll bite. how long can one keep this up? Indefinately? That has NOT been my experience during the years I competed. Not only with myself but with others that were alot better than I was. And they had a GREAT incentive to lift at the lightest weight class possible.
No, not indefinitely (which is why I mentioned "correlation"). There is a point at which the muscle needs to grow in order to get stronger. Most people will probably never reach that point. Whether that's at "elite" or "advanced amateur" is a different discussion and beyond my knowledge as I'm one of those people that will never get to "that point". I'd prefer to look stronger than I am, but that doesn't stop me from lifting for strength.0 -
Bump the sets up 2 more and use straps to increase the weights on deads. If strength is what you're going for then use equipment that will assist. You can always strengthen forearms and grip strength separately. Key here is that you have to lift as much as you safely can for the 4-5 reps. And shoot for a couple of singles and doubles once a week to gauge your progress.Just started a 4-5 rep range. 3-4 sets each. Triple setting 3 seperate sets of exercises.
Although I'm not going to go down to a 4-5 rep range with the squats and deads. I'd have to get into the 350lbs range for the dead and I don't really have an interest to go that heavy anymore. At 315lbs, it was fairly easy at 5-6 reps but my grip strength is lacking. I start losing the grip on the bar before my lift strength gives out.0 -
Okay I'll bite. how long can one keep this up? Indefinately? That has NOT been my experience during the years I competed. Not only with myself but with others that were alot better than I was. And they had a GREAT incentive to lift at the lightest weight class possible.
No, not indefinitely (which is why I mentioned "correlation"). There is a point at which the muscle needs to grow in order to get stronger. Most people will probably never reach that point. Whether that's at "elite" or "advanced amateur" is a different discussion and beyond my knowledge as I'm one of those people that will never get to "that point". I'd prefer to look stronger than I am, but that doesn't stop me from lifting for strength.
Even if we assume no one reaches the level where they "need" to grow, how do you train to gain strength and prevent additional growth/mass? I've seen strong skinny guys and weak big guys. But that's more a function of their genetics than what they are doing in their lifting routines.0 -
This is true. There are many guys who weight less than I do and kick my *kitten* on bench, squats and deads.Seriously, where are you getting your information? Technique and neurological factors play a huge role in strength, not just cross-sectional area.
Counterexample: Bodybuilders are often weaker than much smaller strength athletes. If strength = size, this would not be the case.0 -
Bump the sets up 2 more and use straps to increase the weights on deads. If strength is what you're going for then use equipment that will assist. You can always strengthen forearms and grip strength separately. Key here is that you have to lift as much as you safely can for the 4-5 reps. And shoot for a couple of singles and doubles once a week to gauge your progress.Just started a 4-5 rep range. 3-4 sets each. Triple setting 3 seperate sets of exercises.
Although I'm not going to go down to a 4-5 rep range with the squats and deads. I'd have to get into the 350lbs range for the dead and I don't really have an interest to go that heavy anymore. At 315lbs, it was fairly easy at 5-6 reps but my grip strength is lacking. I start losing the grip on the bar before my lift strength gives out.
Don't take this wrong. That's sound/honest advice. And I appreciate it. But I can't see myself not having to gain mass if I get stronger with that method. I could certainly try to stay at a slight deficit and get my technique, supporting muscle, fast twitch as advanced as I can.0 -
Even if we assume no one reaches the level where they "need" to grow, how do you train to gain strength and prevent additional growth/mass? I've seen strong skinny guys and weak big guys. But that's more a function of their genetics than what they are doing in their lifting routines.
Train while eating at a deficit
Edit to add more: I personally believe diet and workout routine play more of a role in those 'strong skinny' and 'weak big' folks than you give credit.0 -
This is true. There are many guys who weight less than I do and kick my *kitten* on bench, squats and deads.Seriously, where are you getting your information? Technique and neurological factors play a huge role in strength, not just cross-sectional area.
Counterexample: Bodybuilders are often weaker than much smaller strength athletes. If strength = size, this would not be the case.
You can't compare two different people. Way too many other varibles going on.0 -
But that's more a function of their genetics than what they are doing in their lifting routines.
I won't argue with genetics, but their lifting routines have A LOT to do with it. Training to raise your 1rm vs doing full sets will have different results.0 -
Even if we assume no one reaches the level where they "need" to grow, how do you train to gain strength and prevent additional growth/mass? I've seen strong skinny guys and weak big guys. But that's more a function of their genetics than what they are doing in their lifting routines.
Train while eating at a deficit
That's what I do now. I'll have to see where it takes me. I'm about 1/2 way though this journey0 -
The comparison was to show that muscle doesn't always equate to strength. If we could do it with twins that would be cool. The Cansecos don't count.You can't compare two different people. Way too many other varibles going on.0
This discussion has been closed.
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