Low Calories, or Low Carbs? What is better.....
Replies
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low calories and eat good carbs. Whole wheat etc0
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That is what Gary Taubes says. Eating the right balance of calories allows the body to increase its calorie expenditure.
You misunderstand Taubes premise, which is, Limit CHO because CHO and only CHO causes the pancreas to release insulin and insulin is what makes you fat. He also surmises that overeating is symptom of obesity and not the cause of, ignoring the fact that to become obese you must have eaten in a steady caloric surplus0 -
So RonSwanson, so is Calories IN and Calories OUT independent of each other, such that Calories OUT is constant and can only be changed by 1) a change in body mass or 2) varying amounts of exercise. Because that is the only logical conclusion one can make to your assertion that altering the ratios of macro-nutrients does not create any kind of metabolic advantage.
Given sufficient protein intake, this is EXACTLY what happens.
Did you even read the article you posted???
''Assuming caloric intake can be controlled (and protein is adequate of course), shuffling of carbs and fats tends to have a minor, approaching negligble effect."
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/is-a-calorie-a-calorie.html
yes I saw that and then it contradicts itself when it talks about insulin resistance. So my take is when someone doesn't have problems with insulin, it would make no difference. So the question I have is how many people have problems with insulin. And Gary thinks its pretty significant.0 -
That is what Gary Taubes says. Eating the right balance of calories allows the body to increase its calorie expenditure.
Taubes is an idiot.
http://weightology.net/?p=2510 -
So RonSwanson, so is Calories IN and Calories OUT independent of each other, such that Calories OUT is constant and can only be changed by 1) a change in body mass or 2) varying amounts of exercise. Because that is the only logical conclusion one can make to your assertion that altering the ratios of macro-nutrients does not create any kind of metabolic advantage.
Given sufficient protein intake, this is EXACTLY what happens.
Did you even read the article you posted???
''Assuming caloric intake can be controlled (and protein is adequate of course), shuffling of carbs and fats tends to have a minor, approaching negligble effect."
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/is-a-calorie-a-calorie.html
yes I saw that and then it contradicts itself when it talks about insulin resistance.
No it doesn't.
You simply misunderstood what he said. Re-read my previous posts.So my take is when someone doesn't have problems with insulin, it would make no difference. So the question I have is how many people have problems with insulin. And Gary thinks its pretty significant.
So you're on a first-name basis with the idiot now? How cute.0 -
That is what Gary Taubes says. Eating the right balance of calories allows the body to increase its calorie expenditure.
You misunderstand Taubes premise, which is, Limit CHO because CHO and only CHO causes the pancreas to release insulin and insulin is what makes you fat. He also surmises that overeating is symptom of obesity and not the cause of, ignoring the fact that to become obese you must have eaten in a steady caloric surplus
I raise you on that. I don't agree that only CHO causes insulin release, because for one you've posted a credible study to indicate otherwise. But I don't think that completely debunks Taubes' entire theory.
And I agree with Taubes' premise that obesity is caused by the body's desire to be obese, which is driven by carbohydrates and existing fat cells. The fatter you are, the more fat you want to become. Even if you shed pounds, you don't shed the fat cells.
Do you think obesity is primarily psychological? I sure don't, and that's the main thing I find eye-opening about Taubes' work.0 -
I just wish one thing and, if someone can answer this question in a way that makes sense to me, I'll back out of these low-carb threads.
What is unhealthy about eating lower-carb? In a typical day I eat:
1st breakfast: 1 T of peanut butter (because that's all I can stomach first thing in the AM but I'm mindful of getting something on the stomach after fasting from dinner as I rarely feel like eating later in the evening).
Real breakfast: 2-3 egg omelet with some vegetables, a bit of cheese, and, occasionally, bits of meat.
AM snack might be any of the following (not all of them, obviously): nuts, seeds, hard-boiled egg, 1/2 apple or other small portion of some other fruit with a bit of nut butter or a small chunk of cheese, just some cheese, 1-2 graham crackers with a small smear of butter, yogurt
Lunch might be any of the following, again not all of them: soup and salad, just a big salad filled with a wide variety of vegetables and nuts or seeds and some protein source (hard-boiled eggs, sliced meat, and/or cheese), open-faced sandwich one 100% whole-grain bread with a bit of salad and/or fruit on the side, or heating up leftovers from last night's dinner (see dinner for ideas of what that might be), some kind of lean protein with a salad and/or fruit on the side. Salad dressing is usually carefully-measured for portion control Ranch or just plain mayonnaise as I just can't stand oil/vinegar or some of the other options.
PM snack: See AM snack
Dinner: Several times a week we do a protein/vegetable stir-fry using a wide variety of vegetables and proteins and using either olive oil, butter, or wine and various seasonings so it's always different and doesn't become boring. Other nights are a protein with a large salad sometimes with a serving of steamed vegetable as well, now and then I might make brown rice or quinoa on the side but keep the serving size small for myself (my husband can tolerate a larger serving), occasionally I might add a small bit of potato but I usually only do this a few times a month if I'm just really craving one (I grew up on them so I do occasionally miss the flavor). Again, salad dressing is usually carefully-measured for portion control Ranch or just plain mayonnaise as I just can't stand oil/vinegar or some of the other options.
Eve snack: Rare to have these but, if I do, it's because I have calories left in my day to fill and I'm feeling a bit hungry. This might be any of the things listed for AM/PM snacks or, if I'm feeling like a splurge, a couple of cookies or a small serving of ice cream or some other treat.
Now and then, I do have a glass of milk at meals or snacks but I don't do this daily. I will also occasionally have some juice, usually one of the V8 fruit/veg drinks.
This is an ideal day and I feel great when I do it and lose steadily. Of course, not every day is ideal.
Anyway, if someone can tell me what is so unhealthy about eating this way, I'd love to hear it.
There is nothing unhealthy about eating low carb it's just that the media has demonized it because it's so contrary to what everyone has been taught for so long. Fact of the matter is that most low carb dieters eat more whole natural foods than most people do and that apparently offends and scares people
Ha! Sad but true as evidenced by the anti low-carb rhetoric so often seen on these forums. I'll be curious to see if any of them actually poke holes in my eating plan to tell me how unhealthy I'm eating. For some reason, I have a feeling my menu will be ignored.
On another note, I don't believe that Atkins or any of the low-carb plans state you can eat unlimited amounts on low-carb and still lose.
I know, for myself, I have to restrict calories, exercise, adequately hydrate myself, and keep my carb count in my sweet spot range in order to lose weight. If I consistently neglect any of these, weight loss grinds to a halt.0 -
That is what Gary Taubes says. Eating the right balance of calories allows the body to increase its calorie expenditure.
You misunderstand Taubes premise, which is, Limit CHO because CHO and only CHO causes the pancreas to release insulin and insulin is what makes you fat. He also surmises that overeating is symptom of obesity and not the cause of, ignoring the fact that to become obese you must have eaten in a steady caloric surplus
I raise you on that. I don't agree that only CHO causes insulin release, because for one you've posted a credible study to indicate otherwise. But I don't think that completely debunks Taubes' entire theory.
And I agree with Taubes' premise that obesity is caused by the body's desire to be obese, which is driven by carbohydrates and existing fat cells. The fatter you are, the more fat you want to become. Even if you shed pounds, you don't shed the fat cells.
Do you think obesity is primarily psychological? I sure don't, and that's the main thing I find eye-opening about Taubes' work.
Except that it does, his theory that only cho causes you to be fat is incorrect since cho is not the only macro to stimulate insulin release. And on top of that even if you were to only eat fat which leads to no increase in insulin you could store fat due to fat stimulating ASP, which is another nail in the coffin of Taubes theory
How does cho drive your body's "desire" to be fatter? Cho doesn't make anyone eat more, even if it is not as satiating and you are still hungry afterwards, is it possible to not eat even if you feel hungry?0 -
You are assuming that I ate a low fat diet before I cut the carbs. I didn't. I think you are right. I think there is a communication issue here.
My eating before hand was high fat and high carb. I've always liked fruits and veggies, so my diet also contained a lot of that stuff too. I think that makes me pretty typical of the majority of Americans at least who are eating both high fat and high carb.
So, when I cut back on my carbs, my fat was already high. I switched that fat over to mostly good fats like olive oils, avocados, fatty fish, etc. I added a bit more veggies to my diet usually in the form of a salad somewhere in the day, and i cut back my fruit to 1-2 servings a day.
This keeps me at or below 150g of carbs a day. My caloric intake is usually between 1300-1600 with MFP telling me to eat 1590 to lose a pound a week. My number usually work out to about 35% carbs, 35% fat, and 30% protein and in any case no more than 40% carbs with 30% each of fat and protein. When I eat more carbs than this I retain a hideous amount of water and I get pretty bloated, which all results in the scale moving up rather than down.
Yup, totally sounds like a communication issue. Sorry for my part in the confusion.
Previous to go lower-carb, I was doing low-fat/higher-carb eating at approximately the same level of calories I'm eating now. Now I am satiated and never hungry. With more carbs, I was always starving even shortly after a meal. I can't eat as many carbs are you can on a regular basis without kicking off the feelings of hunger due to my blood sugar rising/crashing but, if you can do it, go for it.
Again, we're all a bit different based on our age, general health, metabolism, whether or not we have any insulin resistance and/or blood sugar issues, etc. and all need to find what works best for us. Which is why these discussions drive me batty because there are people with dogmatic ideas who believe that THIS (whatever this is) works for them so it must work for everybody and that simply isn't true in my experience.
And I apologize for my side of the confusion as well.
Like you said, everyone is different. I firmly believe that there is no one size fits all type of solution. I'm just glad you've found something that is working for you and that you are achieving your goals in what seems like a sustainable way.
My problem with severely restricting my carbs is that I am never happy with what I eat. Yes, I lose the weight, but I feel deprived like I'm not allowed to eat things I enjoy. Eventually, I get discouraged and give up on the whole low carb thing. Moderation works much better for me and my frame of mind. I can still l have my homemade bread, carb loaded desserts, etc just in smaller quantities and less frequently than I used to.
I'm usually not hungry at all with <150g a day. However, I am absolutely bloody starving today, but that has nothing to do with carbs. My TOM is on it's way, and the hormone changes always make me want to inhale as much food as possible. LOL
I, too, am glad you have found something that works for you. That's the name of the game.
Just to add something else...I also zig-zag my calories focusing on my weekly intake/expenditure target rather than my daily one. I will "bank" calories on days where my hunger levels are low to use for splurges on other days. I'm leaving shortly to go a birthday celebration where I will indulge in some higher-carb treats like the cake and whatever else if there in controlled portions without guilt and without going over my calories for the week. So I don't eat so clean each day. Simply most days.
Now, because my body really doesn't react well to too many carbs I have to plan for this so I don't pay a price for it. I have just done my C25k run. My body tolerates carbs better just prior to or just after intense exercise. I will also go to the gym tonight to lift weights. If it wasn't my weight-lifting night, I would probably go to swim or do a class like cardio-kickboxing or something. Anything to help my body process those carbs better.
If I don't take these steps, I definitely pay a price. Example: I recently got talked into going to a Mexican restaurant by a friend where I threw caution to the wind and ate a chimichanga, rice and beans. I did not exercise previous to this. Within an hour, I was foggy-brained, sleepy, and had developed throbbing aches in my joints, especially my knees and ankles. This is my body's typical reaction to too many carbs combined with not enough exercise. It sucks. I know better but....well, I'm human and still make mistakes. Due to my commitments that day, I could not get any exercise in and ended up collapsing on the couch and sleeping for 12 hours. If I had done my exercising both pre- and post- meal, I could have avoided most but probably not all of those symptoms. Or those symptoms would have not been as intense.
Anyway, I have found a way to work more carbs into my day as long as I only do it occasionally and get my exercise in around it. Oh, and I must eat some protein with the carbs even if it's fruit or whole-grain carbs, especially so if I'm eating more simple carbs. But who wants to live a life without ever having cake? Or cookies or brownies or ice cream or.....yada yada. Or just some wonderful home-baked bread? I'm glad I've found a way to work them into my eating plan.
Sounds like we're really not so different except that you can tolerate a few more carbs on a day-to-day basis. If I could, I would.0 -
That is what Gary Taubes says. Eating the right balance of calories allows the body to increase its calorie expenditure.
You misunderstand Taubes premise, which is, Limit CHO because CHO and only CHO causes the pancreas to release insulin and insulin is what makes you fat. He also surmises that overeating is symptom of obesity and not the cause of, ignoring the fact that to become obese you must have eaten in a steady caloric surplus
I raise you on that. I don't agree that only CHO causes insulin release, because for one you've posted a credible study to indicate otherwise. But I don't think that completely debunks Taubes' entire theory.
And I agree with Taubes' premise that obesity is caused by the body's desire to be obese, which is driven by carbohydrates and existing fat cells. The fatter you are, the more fat you want to become. Even if you shed pounds, you don't shed the fat cells.
Do you think obesity is primarily psychological? I sure don't, and that's the main thing I find eye-opening about Taubes' work.
Except that it does, his theory that only cho causes you to be fat is incorrect since cho is not the only macro to stimulate insulin release. And on top of that even if you were to only eat fat which leads to no increase in insulin you could store fat due to fat stimulating ASP, which is another nail in the coffin of Taubes theory
How does cho drive your body's "desire" to be fatter? Cho doesn't make anyone eat more, even if it is not as satiating and you are still hungry afterwards, is it possible to not eat even if you feel hungry?
You do realize Taubes doesn't claim his theory to be fact and is open about it being unproven. He says its an "Alternate Hypothesis".
And is ASP proven to store ALL dietary fat when there is no presence of insulin? Do you have a study I could look at? I don't really doubt you, but I'm curious as to whether this is fact or not.
If CHO has little impact on hunger, then why are people able to reduce their caloric intake by hundreds if not thousands by simply removing it. Why don't they compensate by eating more fat and protein?
Why are carbs psychologically addictive but not fat and protein? I love steak, I love chicken, I love eggs, but I never eat too much of it. Pizza has a lot of fat, so you would think it would fill me up but I can eat seemingly unlimited amounts of pizza.
And yes we can not eat when we are hungry. But if someone is chronically hungry, they will eventually lose that mental battle.0 -
How does cho drive your body's "desire" to be fatter? Cho doesn't make anyone eat more, even if it is not as satiating and you are still hungry afterwards, is it possible to not eat even if you feel hungry?
For those of us with insulin/blood sugar issues, no. Eating too many carbs makes my blood sugar rise and then crash. (Unless I have carefully planned for it as detailed in my post above.) A crash can give me shakes, blurry vision, and cause me to feel faint and lead to actual fainting if I don't eat something.
And as a hypoglycemic with these issues, I was encouraged to eat higher carb by the registered dietitian I was referred to which just continued the cycle. Dumb advice.0 -
How does cho drive your body's "desire" to be fatter? Cho doesn't make anyone eat more, even if it is not as satiating and you are still hungry afterwards, is it possible to not eat even if you feel hungry?
For those of us with insulin/blood sugar issues, no. Eating too many carbs makes my blood sugar rise and then crash. (Unless I have carefully planned for it as detailed in my post above.) A crash can give me shakes, blurry vision, and cause me to feel faint and lead to actual fainting if I don't eat something.
And as a hypoglycemic with these issues, I was encouraged to eat higher carb by the registered dietitian I was referred to which just continued the cycle. Dumb advice.
Oh another point I should probably make on this one. Acg has pointed out to us that Protein causes insulin to be released. He says it helps to refute Taubes' theory. He says if insulin is the problem and protein raises insulin, why does cutting carbs solve the problem?
My take is that the amount of protein that 1) an obese person typically eats and 2) a low-dieter eats is still releasing significantly less insulin than what that person released while they were eating mostly carbs and gaining weight.
I was eating about 3500 calories and slowly gaining weight. Most of what I ate was carbs, so probably 400g of carbs, probably 100g of protein, and the rest fat. I was also running 6-8 miles 4 days a week, so lots of exercise.
So that's 500g of carbs/protein causing insulin release.
Now I eat probably 2300 calories, 200g of protein, 50g of carbs, and the rest is fat.
So now its only about 250g of carbs/protein causing an insulin release (and most of the bad carbs had much higher insulin-index than protein anyways).
Keep in mind these are very rough guesses, but I think the point stands that I could have a huge reduction in insulin release. I'm not obese, so maybe I'm not as resistant to insulin as i once thought, but just enough to make a pretty big difference with this change.0 -
That is what Gary Taubes says. Eating the right balance of calories allows the body to increase its calorie expenditure.
You misunderstand Taubes premise, which is, Limit CHO because CHO and only CHO causes the pancreas to release insulin and insulin is what makes you fat. He also surmises that overeating is symptom of obesity and not the cause of, ignoring the fact that to become obese you must have eaten in a steady caloric surplus
I raise you on that. I don't agree that only CHO causes insulin release, because for one you've posted a credible study to indicate otherwise. But I don't think that completely debunks Taubes' entire theory.
And I agree with Taubes' premise that obesity is caused by the body's desire to be obese, which is driven by carbohydrates and existing fat cells. The fatter you are, the more fat you want to become. Even if you shed pounds, you don't shed the fat cells.
Do you think obesity is primarily psychological? I sure don't, and that's the main thing I find eye-opening about Taubes' work.
Except that it does, his theory that only cho causes you to be fat is incorrect since cho is not the only macro to stimulate insulin release. And on top of that even if you were to only eat fat which leads to no increase in insulin you could store fat due to fat stimulating ASP, which is another nail in the coffin of Taubes theory
How does cho drive your body's "desire" to be fatter? Cho doesn't make anyone eat more, even if it is not as satiating and you are still hungry afterwards, is it possible to not eat even if you feel hungry?
You do realize Taubes doesn't claim his theory to be fact and is open about it being unproven. He says its an "Alternate Hypothesis".
And is ASP proven to store ALL dietary fat when there is no presence of insulin? Do you have a study I could look at? I don't really doubt you, but I'm curious as to whether this is fact or not.
If CHO has little impact on hunger, then why are people able to reduce their caloric intake by hundreds if not thousands by simply removing it. Why don't they compensate by eating more fat and protein?
Why are carbs psychologically addictive but not fat and protein? I love steak, I love chicken, I love eggs, but I never eat too much of it. Pizza has a lot of fat, so you would think it would fill me up but I can eat seemingly unlimited amounts of pizza.
And yes we can not eat when we are hungry. But if someone is chronically hungry, they will eventually lose that mental battle.
Metabolic response of Acylation Stimulating Protein to an oral fat load. November 1989 The Journal of Lipid Research, 30, 1727-1733.
http://www.jlr.org/content/30/11/1727.full.pdf+html
Coordinated release of acylation stimulating protein (ASP) and triacylglycerol clearance by human adipose tissue in vivo in the postprandial period April 1998 The Journal of Lipid Research, 39, 884-891.
http://www.jlr.org/content/39/4/884.full.pdf+html
Could it not be the evil cho in pizza that causes you to be able to eat so much, but just that you thoroughly enough the magical taste of dough + cheese + sauce?0 -
I have to say that I have done a lot of low carb diets (Atkins, Dukan...etc) and have done really well on them. I lost weight quickly and feel great because I do retain a lot of water, so they work for me.
HOWEVER, I find them purely a short term fix and I am miserable when I am on them for any length of time. When I come off them I put on even more weight and am now at my heaviest. I think a lot of this is down to lots of 'last suppers' followed by fad diets that don't last long. Going from one extreme of eating to the other is really not good for the mind or body.
I am now focusing on having a normal healthy diet solely using MyFitnessPal that doesn't forbid me anything, as long as I count it as part of my daily calories. If I am going out for a meal or something, then I make sure I do the exercise to earn more calories. I've been doing it just over three weeks and feel the best I ever have, and what makes me feel euphoric is the fact I finally feel in control of my eating. I am rarely hungry and have only twice gone (very slightly) over my calorie intake because I don't feel the need to
)
Sounds like you didn't do the diet properly by only going low-carb for 2 weeks to clear the system/break the cycle and then gradually add back in more carbs until you find the sweet spot, i.e. the number of carbs you can eat daily that allows you to continue to lose weight and feel satisfied. For some people that might only be 50 grams/carb day and, for others, that might be 150 or whatever.
Don't blame the eating plan when you didn't do it correctly and, of course, extreme eating trends will lead to yo-yo weight loss/weight gain situations.
I am in complete control of my eating as long as I keep my carbs to less than 100 grams/day, feel best when I keep them closer to 80, have unlimited energy for exercise, chronically good moods rather than roller-coaster emotions, feel satisfied, am never hungry, and am losing without feeling deprived.
Of course, what works for me may not work for you because we're all different. Some of us have more sensitivity to carbs than others so that's to be expected. So your experience doesn't make it true for all just as mine doesn't.
Oh yes I agree and I was speaking from personal experience rather than what I think is right for everybody - I didn't mean for it to come across as a sweeping statement)
My aunty did Atkins for many months and got on really well with it. Her sleeping improved, knees were better...etc. However, I personally just don't get on with low carb. I have done low carb for longer periods (4-5months) but I find them too restrictive and I get bored. I find now that I prefer to have a little bit of things I like.
Like you say, everyone is different, and I feel more control knowing that there are no 'forbidden' foods and just counting calories. I think it's great that people can do proper low carb diets and stick to them, but unfortunately I just can't handle them myself!) 0 -
Could it not be the evil cho in pizza that causes you to be able to eat so much, but just that you thoroughly enough the magical taste of dough + cheese + sauce?
This.
I can put away chicken wings like there's no tomorrow. Virtually no CHO in them at all (true Buffalo Wings aren't breaded).
Since we're playing the n=1 game, I challenge you to explain that one.0 -
I recommend reading 'Why We Get Fat" by Gary Taubs. He also wrote "Good Calories, Bad Calories' and he makes a strong case for why counting carbs is much more important than counting carbs. I'm in the 'counting carbs' camp, and in my opinion, the science and my own experience support this.0
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I have to say that I have done a lot of low carb diets (Atkins, Dukan...etc) and have done really well on them. I lost weight quickly and feel great because I do retain a lot of water, so they work for me.
HOWEVER, I find them purely a short term fix and I am miserable when I am on them for any length of time. When I come off them I put on even more weight and am now at my heaviest. I think a lot of this is down to lots of 'last suppers' followed by fad diets that don't last long. Going from one extreme of eating to the other is really not good for the mind or body.
I am now focusing on having a normal healthy diet solely using MyFitnessPal that doesn't forbid me anything, as long as I count it as part of my daily calories. If I am going out for a meal or something, then I make sure I do the exercise to earn more calories. I've been doing it just over three weeks and feel the best I ever have, and what makes me feel euphoric is the fact I finally feel in control of my eating. I am rarely hungry and have only twice gone (very slightly) over my calorie intake because I don't feel the need to)
Sounds like you didn't do the diet properly by only going low-carb for 2 weeks to clear the system/break the cycle and then gradually add back in more carbs until you find the sweet spot, i.e. the number of carbs you can eat daily that allows you to continue to lose weight and feel satisfied. For some people that might only be 50 grams/carb day and, for others, that might be 150 or whatever.
Don't blame the eating plan when you didn't do it correctly and, of course, extreme eating trends will lead to yo-yo weight loss/weight gain situations.
I am in complete control of my eating as long as I keep my carbs to less than 100 grams/day, feel best when I keep them closer to 80, have unlimited energy for exercise, chronically good moods rather than roller-coaster emotions, feel satisfied, am never hungry, and am losing without feeling deprived.
Of course, what works for me may not work for you because we're all different. Some of us have more sensitivity to carbs than others so that's to be expected. So your experience doesn't make it true for all just as mine doesn't.
Oh yes I agree and I was speaking from personal experience rather than what I think is right for everybody - I didn't mean for it to come across as a sweeping statement)
My aunty did Atkins for many months and got on really well with it. Her sleeping improved, knees were better...etc. However, I personally just don't get on with low carb. I have done low carb for longer periods (4-5months) but I find them too restrictive and I get bored. I find now that I prefer to have a little bit of things I like.
Like you say, everyone is different, and I feel more control knowing that there are no 'forbidden' foods and just counting calories. I think it's great that people can do proper low carb diets and stick to them, but unfortunately I just can't handle them myself!)
Actually, I don't believe in "forbidden foods" either. At least not totally forbidden forever, just forbidden as a regular part of my diet. As I detailed in a few posts above, I'm going to a birthday celebration later today and I fully intend to enjoy some cake and other high-carb treats. I just have to do other modifications with my diet that day and ensure I get adequate exercise so my body processes those carbs better and doesn't cause me numerous problems (also detailed in the above post).
And, a couple of times a week, I do have a slice of whole-grain bread or whole-grain crackers. I just need to limit the whole-grain bread to one slice and have a small serving of the crackers. I also have some brown rice or quinoa a couple of times a week. Again, just need to watch the portion size.
However, as much as I love cereal, I just can't do it. It's like my heroin. I can't just have a small bowl. I've been known to eat the entire box in a day or two and spend most of that time in a horrendous carb fog. Cereal is a seriously bad trigger food for me but I also think it is because of the way it effects my blood sugars. Anyway, we don't even let it in the house. Nobody misses it. Well, I sometimes yearn for it just like a recovering alcoholic might yearn for a drink but it's just not a good idea for me.
Glad we've both found what works for us! It's great, isn't it? Keep on keeping on.0 -
I recommend reading 'Why We Get Fat" by Gary Taubs. He also wrote "Good Calories, Bad Calories' and he makes a strong case for why counting carbs is much more important than counting carbs. I'm in the 'counting carbs' camp, and in my opinion, the science and my own experience support this.
Glad you took time to read through the thread or even the posts above yours0 -
I like coming back to this thread and seeing the same people argue back and forth. It makes me smile.
Bottom line - figure out what works for your body to get HEALTHY, which is so much more important than the rate at which you lose weight.
Everyone is a little different regarding how much of which macros they need, but I am firmly in the "well-balanced, nutrient-rich meals in sensible portions" camp.
But, as I have said before, what do I know? I only shed 126 pounds and went from 56% to 23% body fat.0 -
Could it not be the evil cho in pizza that causes you to be able to eat so much, but just that you thoroughly enough the magical taste of dough + cheese + sauce?
This.
I can put away chicken wings like there's no tomorrow. Virtually no CHO in them at all (true Buffalo Wings aren't breaded).
Since we're playing the n=1 game, I challenge you to explain that one.
Can't speak for you, but I too love chicken wings. However I never eat enough to create a massive caloric surplus. Even if I overeat them for the given meal, my hunger will at least go away for the next several hours.
I could eat 6 slices of pieces of pizza, and it is a certainty I will be hungry 2 hours later. Same goes for pasta, ice cream, desserts, and conveniently anything that has an abundance of carbs.0 -
Could it not be the evil cho in pizza that causes you to be able to eat so much, but just that you thoroughly enough the magical taste of dough + cheese + sauce?
This.
I can put away chicken wings like there's no tomorrow. Virtually no CHO in them at all (true Buffalo Wings aren't breaded).
Since we're playing the n=1 game, I challenge you to explain that one.
Can't speak for you, but I too love chicken wings. However I never eat enough to create a massive caloric surplus. Even if I overeat them for the given meal, my hunger will at least go away for the next several hours.
I could eat 6 slices of pieces of pizza, and it is a certainty I will be hungry 2 hours later. Same goes for pasta, ice cream, desserts, and conveniently anything that has an abundance of carbs.
Ice cream, pizza, and desserts also tend to have an abundance of fat. Why do you insist on singling out carbs and ignoring this fact?0 -
Could it not be the evil cho in pizza that causes you to be able to eat so much, but just that you thoroughly enough the magical taste of dough + cheese + sauce?
This.
I can put away chicken wings like there's no tomorrow. Virtually no CHO in them at all (true Buffalo Wings aren't breaded).
Since we're playing the n=1 game, I challenge you to explain that one.
Can't speak for you, but I too love chicken wings. However I never eat enough to create a massive caloric surplus. Even if I overeat them for the given meal, my hunger will at least go away for the next several hours.
I could eat 6 slices of pieces of pizza, and it is a certainty I will be hungry 2 hours later. Same goes for pasta, ice cream, desserts, and conveniently anything that has an abundance of carbs.
Ice cream, pizza, and desserts also tend to have an abundance of fat. Why do you insist on singling out carbs and ignoring this fact?
Because I can eat fat without the presence of carbs and I have no problem stopping.0 -
Could it not be the evil cho in pizza that causes you to be able to eat so much, but just that you thoroughly enough the magical taste of dough + cheese + sauce?
This.
I can put away chicken wings like there's no tomorrow. Virtually no CHO in them at all (true Buffalo Wings aren't breaded).
Since we're playing the n=1 game, I challenge you to explain that one.
Can't speak for you, but I too love chicken wings. However I never eat enough to create a massive caloric surplus. Even if I overeat them for the given meal, my hunger will at least go away for the next several hours.
I could eat 6 slices of pieces of pizza, and it is a certainty I will be hungry 2 hours later. Same goes for pasta, ice cream, desserts, and conveniently anything that has an abundance of carbs.
Ice cream, pizza, and desserts also tend to have an abundance of fat. Why do you insist on singling out carbs and ignoring this fact?
Because I can eat fat without the presence of carbs and I have no problem stopping.
n=10 -
Oh and Acg back on the topic of insulin response from protein. Since your hypothesis that insulin response from protein discredits Taubes theory that the insulin response due to carbs is the cause of obesity, consider the following:
An insulin resistant person over-produces insulin because their fat and muscle cells will not easily absorb glucose. So more insulin is produced than in a normal individual. What about protein's insulin response where there is no glucose to store. Would that insulin response due to protein intake be different in an insulin resistant individual? If not, that can explain why insulin has a much harsher effect when carbs are ingested instead or protein.0 -
Could it not be the evil cho in pizza that causes you to be able to eat so much, but just that you thoroughly enough the magical taste of dough + cheese + sauce?
This.
I can put away chicken wings like there's no tomorrow. Virtually no CHO in them at all (true Buffalo Wings aren't breaded).
Since we're playing the n=1 game, I challenge you to explain that one.
Can't speak for you, but I too love chicken wings. However I never eat enough to create a massive caloric surplus. Even if I overeat them for the given meal, my hunger will at least go away for the next several hours.
I could eat 6 slices of pieces of pizza, and it is a certainty I will be hungry 2 hours later. Same goes for pasta, ice cream, desserts, and conveniently anything that has an abundance of carbs.
Ice cream, pizza, and desserts also tend to have an abundance of fat. Why do you insist on singling out carbs and ignoring this fact?
Because I can eat fat without the presence of carbs and I have no problem stopping.
n=1
I can eat lots of fat, lots of protein, lots of protein with fat and be fine. I can eat low-fat foods that are high in carbs and overeat. The only common denominator is carbs.
I cannot overeat right now without forcing myself to eat just for the sake of proving I can do it. My body is driving me to eat less than it expends because it doesn't like my weight. I used to get extraordinarily hungry after running. Now I only get moderately more hungry, always ensuring that caloric deficit remains.0 -
I've lost 25 lbs. in 45 days watching cals. And keeping carbs at a reasonable 225g per day, unless I gain even more in exercise.0
-
Could it not be the evil cho in pizza that causes you to be able to eat so much, but just that you thoroughly enough the magical taste of dough + cheese + sauce?
Nah, you can make some pretty good pizza dough substitues out of other things, cauliflower works well actually, as well as other types of flour (coconut, almond, etc) and I am not driven to eat more and more (and it tastes just as good to me). I'm the type of person that could easily kill 1.5 large deep dish pizzas in a sitting but am fine with 4 or so slices of pizza with alternative crusts to ones made with high carb wheat dough.
I can also destroy (or could in the past) a Family size bag of Doritos in a sitting mindlessly snacking, but when I make my own chips out of sweet potatoes fried in beef tallow (that I render myself even) I don't feel compelled to over eat, just a decent sized bowl and I'm done.
I've been there and done that, high carb low fat diets and crazy amounts of exercise, liquid diets, not eating at all. Nothing takes the fat off like low carb for me while leaving muscle and not requiring a ton of exercise compared to what I did on a high carb diet. The year I lost 105lbs on Atkins back in 2003-2004 I did not exercise at all and lost most of the weight in actually about 9 months. I know for a fact that my calories in were well over calories out during that time since I sat at work, sat at school and my hobbies were playing video games and computer games (more sitting). I ate more than enough to hit 3000 calories a day most days, but it was mostly fat and protein (mostly fat really).0 -
Oh and Acg back on the topic of insulin response from protein. Since your hypothesis that insulin response from protein discredits Taubes theory that the insulin response due to carbs is the cause of obesity, consider the following:
An insulin resistant person over-produces insulin because their fat and muscle cells will not easily absorb glucose. So more insulin is produced than in a normal individual. What about protein's insulin response where there is no glucose to store. Would that insulin response due to protein intake be different in an insulin resistant individual? If not, that can explain why insulin has a much harsher effect when carbs are ingested instead or protein.
It's an interesting line of thinking and i can't tell you what their response would be as most of the studies i've seen measuring isocaloric amounts of protein on plasma insulin has been done on healthy individuals. If i'm not mistaken some glucose will be produced through the glucose-alanine cycle, but not in huge amounts0 -
Just refreshed myself by re-reading a section of Good Calories, Bad Calories. Here is why I think that I have an addiction to carbs:
By eating excessive carbs and possibly having a resistance to insulin, I am inhibiting my fat cells from using fat for energy while insulin levels are high. Instead my body relies mainly on glucose for energy. Now because I am very physically active, the only way my body can adapt is to ask for more carbs or become lethargic. That's why I got unimaginable cravings after an intense workout. However if I don't feed myself enough by trying to fight the urge, I will then perform horribly in subsequent workouts because my body is forced to use mainly fat, which is either still inhibited, or maybe because I'm not trained to burn mainly fat and my body bonks out. But the consequence is my lethargic workout demonstrates my body decreased its calorie expenditure simply because I didn't feed myself enough carbs in between workouts to offset the inhibited ability to burn fat.
This is also why I think its stupid to say the most effective way to lose weight is to "create a caloric deficit" through manual calorie restriction. If someone has over-production of insulin inhibiting fat burning, then lowering their calorie intake will simply cause them to feel lethargic and unable to exercise (or at a reduced intensity), effectively lowering their calorie expenditure in the process. Sure it might work in the short term, but the body can stall real easily if you don't get the calorie and carb amounts just right to offset the insulin problem.0 -
It is important to eat a balanced diet, with the right kinds of carbs, and to keep it low cal0
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