Starve Mode? 25% Fat Bloke. Thoughts on plateau please

btdublin

A lot of people talking about starvation mode this week. I am concerned about whether I am entering this. Have 4 months to my wedding and can't afford a plateau at this stage stalling my progress.

Background: I'm male, 27, 5'10", starting weight 106kg (233lbs) 4 months ago - have lost 5kg (11lbs). My am technically obese because of my height-weight but I am pretty muscular underneath, I just have a decent layer of fat (prob about 25% but I haven't had it professionally measured). MPF believes my normal weight should be c. 80kg (176lbs) but this is way too low for my muscle mass. I am realistically aiming for 90kg (198lbs). I used to be a rugby player so I have that sort of body shape, and can eat accordingly!

MPF initially gave me a cal target of 1,500 per day. I was generally making that on average. But since Xmas I have been trying to really shrink my portions and get my stomach to contract to smaller meals. I have done this before and know its a good idea long term. Now I find I am not hungry on even 1000-1200 a day, and I am getting through the day on 1-2 meals and a few snacks without feeling hungry at all. If i do feel hungry at work I have a coffee and it suppresses my appetite.

I am getting a healthy balanced diet, plenty of veg and protein from lean meats. No high carb foods at all, getting carbs through fruit mostly. I might not be spreading it through the day adequately enough, sometimes only eating a 600-800 cal meal in the evening.

Surely as my body is getting a hit of food every day it is not shutting down its metabolism but it is using up fat stores during the day when I haven't eaten until the evening? I have plenty of fat, the body should be using that first. So far it has been working and I have been losing weight for the last few weeks but that might just be a lack of food in my body when I weigh-in!

Good article posted earlier today which I believe in:
http://fitnessblackbook.com/main/starvation-mode-why-you-probably-never-need-to-worry-about-it/

But then there are plenty of personal stories of plateauing which indicate the body conserving energy - this thread is particularly good: http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/447397-my-plateau-nutrition-story-learn-from-my-mistakes

Additionally I am starting P90X this week so I am really going to have to eat hard to eat back my cals from those workouts. I drink plenty of water and am not feeling bad after workouts so I feel I am getting the fuel I need. Sometimes I do feel refreshed half way through like I have gone through the wall and started to burn my plentiful reserves!

Any clever nutritionists out there who can tell me whether I am at risk or whether I should push on!

xraychick77

dont worry, there is no such thing.
you body can not shut down its metabolism..its impossible, if that happened you'd be dead.
its more likely that your body has adapted and become very efficient at what its doing..so it looks like you arent losing much. there are many physiological factors that can make a person stall. the key is to constantly switch things up.

if you can only run 10 mins one day, the next day you may be able to run 15. and so on, till eventually you can run an hour. your body has become efficient at running. we also can suffer from adaptive thermogensis..which what i said..your body adapts and it impedes your ability to lose weight.

your body doesnt conserve energy on a calorie deficit..it only does this when there is a calorie surplus..its called stored as fat. it is physiologically impossible to hold onto fat/calories on a deficit. every part of your body needs calories to function every day. heart, lungs, liver, muscle, brain...if you dont intake enough, it'll get it from your stored fat and too some extent muscle.

meerkat70

Interesting claims, xraychick. Any evidence?

While I think that it's appropriate to suggest that claims around 'starvation mode' are overblown, to rule it out entirely seems equally OTT.

MaximalLife

In a nutshell, you've sabotaged yourself.
You are going to fail with this approach.
Starvation diets don't work.
Why?
Because if your calorie deficit is too great you can easily suffer from
loss of muscle mass (slows down your metabolism) and impaired thyroid functions(slows down your metabolism).

Anyway, buck up and do what's recommended here on MFP, and all will be well.
Or do your own crash diet thing, and join the rest of yo yo dieting, unhealthy America.

The one thing you can't say after today is that YOU WERE NOT WARNED!
I am not trying to be unkind here, but I've seen too many people fail trying to over reach.

snookumss

Up your calories. I was eating about 200 too few calories and couldn't lose weight for 3 months except after Cheat days which were around maintenance. As soon as I upped my calories to be within 50 of my daily goal I started dropping weight quickly! Your size, you should be eating a lot more Hon.

jonski1968

I am getting a healthy balanced diet, plenty of veg and protein from lean meats. No high carb foods at all, getting carbs through fruit mostly. I might not be spreading it through the day adequately enough, sometimes only eating a 600-800 cal meal in the evening.

(unquote)

I think your eating to many of your goal calories in one meal and not enough during the day. Have you tried offsetting your daily calories ie eating over half your amount before 2pm and spread the rest out over the day. Do you ever have the occasional cheat day followed by a couple of very low carb days.

This seems to work for me and i`m not saying its for everyone, but it does work with a stubborn metabolism.

carlie_carl

A lot of people talking about starvation mode this week. I am concerned about whether I am entering this. Have 4 months to my wedding and can't afford a plateau at this stage stalling my progress.

Background: I'm male, 27, 5'10", starting weight 106kg (233lbs) 4 months ago - have lost 5kg (11lbs). My am technically obese because of my height-weight but I am pretty muscular underneath, I just have a decent layer of fat (prob about 25% but I haven't had it professionally measured). MPF believes my normal weight should be c. 80kg (176lbs) but this is way too low for my muscle mass. I am realistically aiming for 90kg (198lbs). I used to be a rugby player so I have that sort of body shape, and can eat accordingly!

MPF initially gave me a cal target of 1,500 per day. I was generally making that on average. But since Xmas I have been trying to really shrink my portions and get my stomach to contract to smaller meals. I have done this before and know its a good idea long term. Now I find I am not hungry on even 1000-1200 a day, and I am getting through the day on 1-2 meals and a few snacks without feeling hungry at all. If i do feel hungry at work I have a coffee and it suppresses my appetite.

I am getting a healthy balanced diet, plenty of veg and protein from lean meats. No high carb foods at all, getting carbs through fruit mostly. I might not be spreading it through the day adequately enough, sometimes only eating a 600-800 cal meal in the evening.

Surely as my body is getting a hit of food every day it is not shutting down its metabolism but it is using up fat stores during the day when I haven't eaten until the evening? I have plenty of fat, the body should be using that first. So far it has been working and I have been losing weight for the last few weeks but that might just be a lack of food in my body when I weigh-in!

Good article posted earlier today which I believe in:
http://fitnessblackbook.com/main/starvation-mode-why-you-probably-never-need-to-worry-about-it/

But then there are plenty of personal stories of plateauing which indicate the body conserving energy - this thread is particularly good: http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/447397-my-plateau-nutrition-story-learn-from-my-mistakes

Additionally I am starting P90X this week so I am really going to have to eat hard to eat back my cals from those workouts. I drink plenty of water and am not feeling bad after workouts so I feel I am getting the fuel I need. Sometimes I do feel refreshed half way through like I have gone through the wall and started to burn my plentiful reserves!

Any clever nutritionists out there who can tell me whether I am at risk or whether I should push on!

your in exacly the same boat as me, im supposed to be around 185lbs but like you I weigh 235lbs and have a muscular frame, I think my ideal weight is between 198-205 wether my bmi says thats ok or not I think thats a healthy size for me, Id go by your own instincs when you reach your ideal weight cos at the nd of the day its just numbers on paper telling you what you should be. ps...i hope you played the manly version of rugby....Rugby league ;-) haha

btdublin

dont worry, there is no such thing.
you body can not shut down its metabolism..its impossible, if that happened you'd be dead.
its more likely that your body has adapted and become very efficient at what its doing..so it looks like you arent losing much. there are many physiological factors that can make a person stall. the key is to constantly switch things up.

if you can only run 10 mins one day, the next day you may be able to run 15. and so on, till eventually you can run an hour. your body has become efficient at running. we also can suffer from adaptive thermogensis..which what i said..your body adapts and it impedes your ability to lose weight.

your body doesnt conserve energy on a calorie deficit..it only does this when there is a calorie surplus..its called stored as fat. it is physiologically impossible to hold onto fat/calories on a deficit. every part of your body needs calories to function every day. heart, lungs, liver, muscle, brain...if you dont intake enough, it'll get it from your stored fat and too some extent muscle.

Thanks xraychick. Yeah I saw your valuable comments on the other thread on this subject. Feel you are in the minority here though.

I haven't been losing much until this month mostly because I was not being consistent at my cals and because I wasn't able to train regularly enough. (Move country, house twice, and job). Now I hope to be back on track with the exercise (P90X forcing me to consistently train) but I will have to up my eating aggressively.

brookepenni

In a nutshell, you've sabotaged yourself.
You are going to fail with this approach.
Starvation diets don't work.
Why?
Because if your calorie deficit is too great you can easily suffer from
loss of muscle mass (slows down your metabolism) and impaired thyroid functions(slows down your metabolism).

Anyway, buck up and do what's recommended here on MFP, and all will be well.
Or do your own crash diet thing, and join the rest of yo yo dieting, unhealthy America.

The one thing you can't say after today is that YOU WERE NOT WARNED!

I am not trying to be unkind here, but I've seen too many people fail trying to over reach.

You seem to have this answer as standard? Do you just copy and paste for everyone? The same cookie cutter response for the same cookie cutter problems?? Oh and he's not American.... You should have picked that out by reading his INDIVIDUAL problem....

ElizabethRitchie

While it is true your body will continue to lose weight as long as your calorie intake to energy spent is at a deficit your body can not continue to burn ONLY fat. At a large deficit you WILL BURN MUSCLE and it doesn't sound like that is what you want.

Also, though you may lose weight when your body is in that "starvation mode" as some like to call it, when your body does begin to get those calories it will continue to run on the calorie count it is used to & begin to store the "extra" calories it isn't used to getting as fat, so that it has stores for when it is "starving" again. There is even a theory, like the above commenter mentioned, that your body gets very efficient at what you are doing.

As far as plateaus go, there are theories out there about your body needing to rest after prolonged periods of weight loss, there are theories about not being able to lose weight & inches at the same time (that the body needs to redistribute where the fat stores are). Regardless of why they happen, we all know, plateaus happen. The best thing to do is not stress about it (studies show increased stress can have an effect on weight loss). Just keep on your system. Maybe choose not to weigh for two weeks or so. Definitely take that plateau time to focus on something other than the scale; take your measurements to see how far you have gotten on the inches side, take stock of your closet get rid of a couple pieces of clothes that don't fit and get a new piece or two to reward yourself and motivate yourself to keep up the effective choices through the plateau. It can help to shake things up a bit. Take a couple of days & turn your eating habits on their ear (eat breakfast for dinner and dinner for breakfast, if you get fruit in the AM & veg in the PM switch that up, or if you can control the urge to do it more than once or twice, pick one item to splurge on for 2 days in a row, within reason. For example allow yourself a half of a dessert serving for dinner one night then a couple of days later, allow yourself a sandwich made with french bread. It can make your body sit up and pay attention to what it's doing again. But like I said, you have to make sure you're not going to throw the whole day or week away b/c you plan in a "splurge" moment.

The best plan for a plateau, for me, is stop weighing myself, make sure I'm getting in all my calories & exercise and go find a way to relax & unwind. After 2 weeks I weigh myself again, see I'm down & then Game On, I'm back to weighing weekly.

One last thing to keep in mind: you should be eating approx every 2-4 hours to keep that metabolism running efficiently. that means eating something small within 1 hour or waking then breakfast, snack, lunch, snack, dinner, (possible snack) and bedtime no sooner than 2 hours from the last food.
Good luck at finding what works for you and congratulations on your engagement.

btdublin

[/quote]

your in exacly the same boat as me, im supposed to be around 185lbs but like you I weigh 235lbs and have a muscular frame, I think my ideal weight is between 198-205 wether my bmi says thats ok or not I think thats a healthy size for me, Id go by your own instincs when you reach your ideal weight cos at the nd of the day its just numbers on paper telling you what you should be. ps...i hope you played the manly version of rugby....Rugby league ;-) haha
[/quote]

No f'ing way! Manly? Short shorts and no rucks/mauls... screw that. I am a front row so my place is in the meat grinder at the breakdown - not flopping around like a fish.

btdublin

[/quote]

You seem to have this answer as standard? Do you just copy and paste for everyone? The same cookie cutter response for the same cookie cutter problems?? Oh and he's not American.... You should have picked that out by reading his INDIVIDUAL problem....
[/quote]

Haha thanks brookpenni!

btdublin

Also, though you may lose weight when your body is in that "starvation mode" as some like to call it, when your body does begin to get those calories it will continue to run on the calorie count it is used to & begin to store the "extra" calories it isn't used to getting as fat, so that it has stores for when it is "starving" again. There is even a theory, like the above commenter mentioned, that your body gets very efficient at what you are doing.

Thank you Elizabeth. I totally agree with your point above, extra calories goes straight to fat afterwards.

I like your ideas of turning your diet intake around. I will try that!

AnarchoGen

I actually didn't start to lose weight until I was eating more. I'm not being sarcastic when I literally thought that eating more would make me fat. Just eat more raw foods - basically unlimited veggies - and portion your grains/starches/fats/proteins. I only eat fruit in the mornings, pre and post workout. It took about 20 days, but I'm finally beginning to see the rest of the weight come off. You can eat more calories, just make wise decisions & limit those empty cals and processed foods.

lodro

In a nutshell, you've sabotaged yourself.
You are going to fail with this approach.
Starvation diets don't work.
Why?
Because if your calorie deficit is too great you can easily suffer from
loss of muscle mass (slows down your metabolism) and impaired thyroid functions(slows down your metabolism).

Anyway, buck up and do what's recommended here on MFP, and all will be well.
Or do your own crash diet thing, and join the rest of yo yo dieting, unhealthy America.

The one thing you can't say after today is that YOU WERE NOT WARNED!
I am not trying to be unkind here, but I've seen too many people fail trying to over reach.

please back up your remark about impaired thyroid function by solid, scientific data.

btdublin

I actually didn't start to lose weight until I was eating more. I'm not being sarcastic when I literally thought that eating more would make me fat. Just eat more raw foods - basically unlimited veggies - and portion your grains/starches/fats/proteins. I only eat fruit in the mornings, pre and post workout. It took about 20 days, but I'm finally beginning to see the rest of the weight come off. You can eat more calories, just make wise decisions & limit those empty cals and processed foods.

Thanks Tat2. Good comments. Yes I am eating whole bags of frozen veg in and evening (with a little melted butter). So cheap and easy to store (yes I know fresh would be better)!

CallmeSbo

Bump

PoleBoy

Anecdotal: I pushed my RMR down to 1150 kCal/day - measured by v02/vCO2.

Newfiedan

As a side note for those whom do not believe in starvation mode as it were, how would you explain those whom resume losing more weight when they eat more? Luck? Anyhow whether or not it exists is dependent on the personal experience. When you are obese its not a problem, you will not lose muscle when you are cutting cals however when you do get leaner you can readily lose fat and muscle in equal portions which is what you want to prevent. Now that said if you are at 25% then my advice is to just resume with the deficit, I did about 9 months and dropped 40 lbs to get to around that 10% range and that is where I ran into the muscle/fat loss problem with caloric cutting so I stopped cutting cals and have turned to other methods to shed the fat. I have a problem with extreme caloric cutting, cutting cals is not the only way to shed fat despite what many may think. Do not worry about a plateau until you hit one, no point. I did eat back my exercise cals every time I wanted to or unless I was purposely zig zagging cals to accelerate fat loss. There are many diet myths and mantras out there so my advice would be to check out leangains.com and read up on them. There are many myths and mantras in the diet world that have no basis in real science so best learn what they are and get yourself going with a good knowledge basis.

garbanzalo

Can't add much to what folks have written here but can only provide anecdotal evidence.

I used to have(and probably will still have) extrem food cravings. Mine vanished once I started drinking lots of water. Using MFP, I discovered I was only drinking an occasional glass of water a day. I only had couple of cups of tea a day and regular food every day, thinking it was healthy but this mode had me going through the box of nuts, dates, raisins, fruit basket like crazy.

I stopped all caffeine (hell on earth as one goes through withdrawal) and started drinking loads more water throughout the day. While I have miles to go, not only have my food cravings subsided but my portions have gone down as well.

Hope that helps.

persian_star

Read this thread: http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/447397-my-plateau-nutrition-story-learn-from-my-mistakes EDIT: Just realised you've quoted this in your orginal post (teach me to not read the full thing) - sorry! The advice is sound though, undereating means you'll starve muscles, slow down metabolism and make it easier to put weight back on in the future.

Can I also say, when I got married my man was over 250 lbs. Neither I nor anyone else cared how much he weighed. What I care about is that he's now losing weight, slowly and steadily, to become more healthy so that our marriage will last into (hopefully) our old age. It's not about that one day, it's about your whole life.

Wishing you the best :flowerforyou:

Newfiedan

Also, though you may lose weight when your body is in that "starvation mode" as some like to call it, when your body does begin to get those calories it will continue to run on the calorie count it is used to & begin to store the "extra" calories it isn't used to getting as fat, so that it has stores for when it is "starving" again. There is even a theory, like the above commenter mentioned, that your body gets very efficient at what you are doing.

Thank you Elizabeth. I totally agree with your point above, extra calories goes straight to fat afterwards.

I like your ideas of turning your diet intake around. I will try that!

Dead wrong, there are to many factors going on to just unilaterally say this, it depends on training, hormones, and many other factors. You can easily overeat and have those cals go to muscle if you are training heavy and feeding the body's need to grow muscle. Its more about understanding the mechanisms that allow for muscle growth and the optimal times to overeat.

btdublin

As a side note for those whom do not believe in starvation mode as it were, how would you explain those whom resume losing more weight when they eat more? Luck? Anyhow whether or not it exists is dependent on the personal experience. When you are obese its not a problem, you will not lose muscle when you are cutting cals however when you do get leaner you can readily lose fat and muscle in equal portions which is what you want to prevent. Now that said if you are at 25% then my advice is to just resume with the deficit, I did about 9 months and dropped 40 lbs to get to around that 10% range and that is where I ran into the muscle/fat loss problem with caloric cutting so I stopped cutting cals and have turned to other methods to shed the fat. I have a problem with extreme caloric cutting, cutting cals is not the only way to shed fat despite what many may think. Do not worry about a plateau until you hit one, no point. I did eat back my exercise cals every time I wanted to or unless I was purposely zig zagging cals to accelerate fat loss. There are many diet myths and mantras out there so my advice would be to check out leangains.com and read up on them. There are many myths and mantras in the diet world that have no basis in real science so best learn what they are and get yourself going with a good knowledge basis.

Newfiedan - appreciated, this is what I was sort of expecting as the alternative view. Thank you.

MaximalLife

In a nutshell, you've sabotaged yourself.
You are going to fail with this approach.
Starvation diets don't work.
Why?
Because if your calorie deficit is too great you can easily suffer from
loss of muscle mass (slows down your metabolism) and impaired thyroid functions(slows down your metabolism).

Anyway, buck up and do what's recommended here on MFP, and all will be well.
Or do your own crash diet thing, and join the rest of yo yo dieting, unhealthy America.

The one thing you can't say after today is that YOU WERE NOT WARNED!
I am not trying to be unkind here, but I've seen too many people fail trying to over reach.

please back up your remark about impaired thyroid function by solid, scientific data.

No.

You can take advice or leave it.
Results speak volumes.
I have it.
He does not.

end of story.

If you want a debate, go have one, because all I present is results and what I believe got me there.
If he, you or anybody find a more excellent way, go for it.

Again, show me the results.

MaximalLife

In a nutshell, you've sabotaged yourself.
You are going to fail with this approach.
Starvation diets don't work.
Why?
Because if your calorie deficit is too great you can easily suffer from
loss of muscle mass (slows down your metabolism) and impaired thyroid functions(slows down your metabolism).

Anyway, buck up and do what's recommended here on MFP, and all will be well.
Or do your own crash diet thing, and join the rest of yo yo dieting, unhealthy America.

The one thing you can't say after today is that YOU WERE NOT WARNED!

I am not trying to be unkind here, but I've seen too many people fail trying to over reach.

You seem to have this answer as standard? Do you just copy and paste for everyone? The same cookie cutter response for the same cookie cutter problems?? Oh and he's not American.... You should have picked that out by reading his INDIVIDUAL problem....

The answers are simple, especially when asked over and over day after day.

He's not eating enough.
Address that, then we can talk politics or anything else anybody wants to snivel over.

stormieweather

Here are my thoughts:

Losing weight is NOT the same thing as losing fat. The scale can go down and we still look lumpy, saggy and jiggly. If you eat too little, you may lose muscle that you don't need to lose. Muscle burns more calories than fat does, so retaining as many as possible of your muscles will keep your metabolism higher. Eat adequately and work out to keep those muscles! When my fat is gone, I want to have a nice shape...not just a smaller version of my fat one.

And eating too little is generally not sustainable over the long term. Frequently, cravings/hunger eventually win and binges occur. This can completely negate all the hard work you did starving yourself. Eating a VLCD without a doctor supervising is the yo in a yo-yo diet. The other yo occurs when you begin eating normally after your metabolism has adapted to the lower calories, so the additional calories are stored as fat+. So you race to lose weight--> bam! <-- then it all piles right back on, plus bonus pounds, and you start over again, except this time, your metabolism is slower than it was before. Once it slows down, it never fully returns to it's original state.

From personal experience, when I eat too few calories, I am tired and crabby. I wake up tired and never feel energized at all. This results in a lower burn than if I'd eaten more and felt awake and moved more. I see the correlation on my Fitbit monitor.

Losing weight and keeping it off is a marathon, not a sprint. Pace yourself and be patient. You will eventually make it to the finish line. :flowerforyou:

btdublin

Still can't force myself to eat enough these last 2 weeks.

Having shrunk my appetite to only need to eat 800-1000 cals a day (and feeling fine on that) I really need to be eat double as I am now doing P90X.

I understand the science and I am probably hurting my chances by not eating enough - but I feel like I am undoing my good work of getting my portion sizes and snacking down...

meerkat70

Still can't force myself to eat enough these last 2 weeks.

Having shrunk my appetite to only need to eat 800-1000 cals a day (and feeling fine on that) I really need to be eat double as I am now doing P90X.

I understand the science and I am probably hurting my chances by not eating enough - but I feel like I am undoing my good work of getting my portion sizes and snacking down...

Please accept what I'm going to say as an attempt to be kind and supportive. I find what you're saying here very worrying. Firstly, you're undereating, and justifying it with terms like 'I've shrunk my appetite' or 'I've shrunk my stomach'. Logically, the notion of shrinking your stomach (without surgery) is a myth. This hasn't really happened, and the shifts you're describing are psychological (about your thoughts, feelings and behaviours) and not biological. The recognition that you have that you're probably damaging yourself and sabotaging your chances of healthy losses is also really concerning - it's the kind of distorted thinking about yourself that ultimately can lead to the kind of thinking associated with eating disorders.

Please take your health seriously. Please look after yourself. You're poised on the edge of a dangerous downward spiral. Choose to look after yourself properly instead?

btdublin

Thanks Meerkat.
Yes I know you are right. There is some stomach shrinkage but I do agree it is psychological - that's half the battle some times.

It's only been the last 2 weeks so I have not gone too far yet. Prob a good shock to the system and I will get back on track now. Now that I can train a bit more consistently I can relax the diet a little bit and focus on the workouts!

Off to buy a chicken wrap for lunch now!!

KJVBear33

Well, I have only really scanned everything you've wrote, but if I am getting everything correctly, you are platauing and youre wanting to lose more. I am not sure if this is helpful in any way shape or form, but I once gained some weight back that I had lost. I was upset and my trainer asked me a question that just blew my mind. She asked are you getting in enough calories per day? I said to her, why do you ask that? Does that have anything to do with gaining weight? And she told me yes. You spend SO much of your time burning off calories at the gym, only to put more calories in your body as the day goes by to lose weight........doesn't make sense to me really, but that is how the body works.

And obviously this site tells you how many calories you need per day by putting in your information and I am certainly not going to knock this site because its my first time on here, but you might want to talk to a proffesional.........doctor or trainer, one of the two........and ask for them to help you find out how many calories you can take in a day and see if it matches up to the site because sometimes sites like this will tell you one thing and then another will tell you something completely different, but either a trainer at your gym or your doctor might be of more help to you to figure it out.

Also, remember your water.........I used to be really bad about water, but now I am not..........my trainer told me that I needed at least 10-12 glasses a day. One more thing before I totally let this go for now........do you drink pop at all? If so, you might consider cutting that out totally.........and as far as beer or any other alcoholic drinking that goes on during the week or weekends, you might consider cutting that out too for a while and see if it makes a difference.

Lots of luck to you!

btdublin

Thanks Bear.

I'm actually not plateauing yet. Have actually been losing weight pretty quickly for me (4kg since NYE). But I am worried about plateauing soon and whether this whole "too little calories" is true.

Seems to be enough personal evidence to suggest there is something behind it.

Cheers to all who responded.

Certainly doing P90X now I need to up my cals and particularly protein so I start muscle gains and keep the fat loss going.