Starve Mode? 25% Fat Bloke. Thoughts on plateau please

Psyb3r

Still can't force myself to eat enough these last 2 weeks.

Having shrunk my appetite to only need to eat 800-1000 cals a day (and feeling fine on that) I really need to be eat double as I am now doing P90X.

I understand the science and I am probably hurting my chances by not eating enough - but I feel like I am undoing my good work of getting my portion sizes and snacking down...

I'm not an expert and I don't pretend to be. I just suggest if you are having a hard time eating back calories you burn (It's hard to eat more when you're now used to eating less) eat things that are more dense in calories. Nuts are good, avacado, etc. Sometimes it's easier to eat things that have a high caloric value for less mass to get back your exercise calories.
Again I'm not an expert, and I don't have letters after my name, but I know from my experience, if I don't eat back my calories, I don't lose weight.

Good Luck!

carlie_carl

your in exacly the same boat as me, im supposed to be around 185lbs but like you I weigh 235lbs and have a muscular frame, I think my ideal weight is between 198-205 wether my bmi says thats ok or not I think thats a healthy size for me, Id go by your own instincs when you reach your ideal weight cos at the nd of the day its just numbers on paper telling you what you should be. ps...i hope you played the manly version of rugby....Rugby league ;-) haha
[/quote]

No f'ing way! Manly? Short shorts and no rucks/mauls... screw that. I am a front row so my place is in the meat grinder at the breakdown - not flopping around like a fish.
[/quote]

haha well you union guys do like to hug whilst the ball is in the sky 90% of the game :P

AnninStPaul

My am technically obese because of my height-weight but I am pretty muscular underneath, I just have a decent layer of fat (prob about 25% but I haven't had it professionally measured).

There are a number of online body fat estimators that require only a scale and a tape measure -- why not try them out just to determine how much fat you have to lose?

Fit_Canuck

I am going to give you the best free advice you will get in my opinion. Stop asking random people on a website how many calories to eat and how your metabolism works. Please go see a medical physician and a sport nutritionist in your area and educate yourself on your body type/composition and needs. Then you will be on the true path to health and happiness.

Best of luck and keep this thought in mind " It's not about loosing weight, it's about loosing fat and gaining muscle " don't take the quick way out by starving your body.

meerkat70

Losing.

And bear in mind 'medical physicians' rarely have any training in diet / nutrition....

meerkat70

tanks, remember if you've been eating this little, you may gain / stay the same for the first week or so that you up your intake. Up your intake slowly, until you reach a healthy target, and if you do have a little gain or STS, don't panic. Your body takes a little time to adjust.

Take care of yourself, and very good luck.

Fit_Canuck

Losing.

And bear in mind 'medical physicians' rarely have any training in diet / nutrition....

You'll notice in my post I mention talking to a sports nutritionist ( for diet and nutrition ), the physician can help you run tests to determine your overall health and can refer you to other professionals to help with body composition tests and metabolic assessment.

Newfiedan

If you have a muscular frame then you are not going to fit into a ideal cookie cutter weight, I am considered overweight for my height. I am 5ft8 and weigh in at anywhere between 162-163 lbs, I was considered obese at 200 lbs. Now given that I am more muscular than most guys I know I am not going to be 147 lbs I probably never will be that weight that is supposed to be the ideal weight for a guy my height which is total bullcrap because it takes nothing into account for muscle. This is the same reason why I say that BMI is as useless as the paper it was written on, it was a way to supply a general guide for general ppl, not those whom are more muscular. My ideal weight in my opinion will be around 170 lbs but that will be at a much leaner, more muscular me. In regards to your caloric intake if you are only consuming that much and are obese you can get away with that for a while, however here are a few things I think you should consider:
1) Rapid weight loss usually will = loose skin down the road. Do you really want this?
2) A very low cal diet will at some point impact overall metabolic rate
3) A very drastic cut when obese in cals will not usually result in muscle loss however when you do get leaner this will mean losing just as much muscle as fat, making you just as unhealthy as when you started.
4) Why would you want to eat so few calories when you can be just as successful using more cals just shifting your macro ratios?
5) There is much more to shedding fat and gaining muscle than simple caloric formulas. Calories in vs cals out is a flawed formula at best, there is a reason our bodies give us biofeedback. Eating that few calories most likely has played with your hormones. Ghrelin the hunger hormone can be drastically reduced when you go on extended very low calorie diets.
6) Keep in mind that the body is ever adapting, ever changing depending on what you feed it. The body can and will adapt to just about anything you do to it. The trick is to work with those adaptations to utilize then for effective fat loss. Working against it will only leave you frustrated and spinning your wheels.

meerkat70

Losing.

And bear in mind 'medical physicians' rarely have any training in diet / nutrition....

You'll notice in my post I mention talking to a sports nutritionist ( for diet and nutrition ), the physician can help you run tests to determine your overall health and can refer you to other professionals to help with body composition tests and metabolic assessment.

Is there really reason to believe that common sense won't do a reasonable job here? I'm always a bit surprised by the over-dependency people appear to want to cultivate on supposed medical experts. I mean, if there were a genuine problem, sure. But I think by and large, most people with a bit of intelligence, a reasonable amount of flexibility, and a level of determination, can successfully lose weight and build fitness without the assistance of medical staff.

Perhaps this is a transatlantic cultural difference.

KJVBear33

Youre welcome!! Glad I could help! I say not to worry about platauing...........if you are worried about it, my thinking is that thinking "oh God, I am going to gain this week" or any type of thinking like that can also hinder progress too. Its 50 percent or more psychological (and I do remember some posts before saying that it is........so I am giving them a thumbs up and saying good job for pointing that out.......got to give credit to where it is due) and 50 percent physical.

But I digress.......there is something to the whole calories thing........my trainer had told me so and she had lots of training in nutrition and all in school. I suggest checking out some sites to find out exactly what goes down with calories and how they play a role in our daily lives. I'd go to sites like Livestrong.com, but its all about personal preferences where that is concerned. I have googled it before and I know that both Live strong and Web MD have touched on this very subject.

Huffdogg

You would likely have much more success increasing your workouts than decreasing your intake. If you don't fuel your body enough to maintain muscle, you will lose that before you even start burning away fat. And that's NOT what you want.

KJVBear33

[/quote]

You'll notice in my post I mention talking to a sports nutritionist ( for diet and nutrition ), the physician can help you run tests to determine your overall health and can refer you to other professionals to help with body composition tests and metabolic assessment.
[/quote]

Is there really reason to believe that common sense won't do a reasonable job here? I'm always a bit surprised by the over-dependency people appear to want to cultivate on supposed medical experts. I mean, if there were a genuine problem, sure. But I think by and large, most people with a bit of intelligence, a reasonable amount of flexibility, and a level of determination, can successfully lose weight and build fitness without the assistance of medical staff.

Perhaps this is a transatlantic cultural difference.
[/quote]


To say that people can lose weight without the assistance of medical staff is something that I think you are wrong about to be honest. Yes.......you don't need a WHOLE staff and if that was what you were getting at, then I apologize and retract the statement above. But a doctor can do a lot of good and should be involved in your weightloss just as much as you are if you are having real difficulty making it happen. A friend of mine had to go through the lap band procedure because he was majorly overweight. And I think that he knew he needed more help than just the smarts to know that diet and exercise is what he needed to do and to watch what he ate. I think some people have a real problem with trying to watch themselves as far as portion control and food choices are concerned that they need more help than just a trainer or just a doctor to help them out. That is the only time that I will ever promote procedures like lap band really and even I am skeptical of any other procedures other than the lap band. I just feel like most people just don't want to have to go through the pains that we take on to watch ourselves that closely to change our lifestyle that is riddled with sweets, pop, and the other bad things out there. So really, I think that it really depends on the type of individual and their mentality and their history thus far as far as their lifestyle and exercise are concerned to say whether or not they need a medical staff to lose the weight.

I seem to think that it is so easy to say "well geez, it should be a snap to do what you have to to lose the weight.......a good healthy lifestyle and exercise to be sure", but it has SO many variables that its hard to juggle. Every day I am trying to lose weight.......which is 24/7......I learn something new about lifestyle changes and exercise, its never ending. I think its hard to stay above the curve.......and for myself, I am struggling on the same three pounds that I keep losing and gaining and its insane. I now really don't eat sweets or anything bad really, but obviously something is going on and I don't know how to tweak my eating habits to have a more healthy lifestyle.

SamMorBelsmom

I hit a platue right before the holidays but that didn't bother me any because I was praying just to maintain through the holidays. But I did get a heart rate monitor for christmas. I gained 4 pounds with the holidays, not bad...but with the hrm, I lost the 4 pounds plus 2 extraa that I have been holding on to. Mine was about a hundred dollars at Target and now I can't work out with out it. The machines and mfp have been over estimating my calorie burn. You sound to be just like my husband. He is about 240 but he is a fireman and is loaded with muscle that is protected by fat. LOL. He cut out pizza and regular pop, and dropped 17 pounds in a month with a half hour of cardio a day and strength training 3 times a week. He still drinks 6 cans a beer a night, some times more. Men are just different like that. I suggest you do what MFP says. Unless eating all the calories will make you sick to your stomach. I have learned the hard way and hope you the best on your journey.

jillianjr

Hi there. I do a lot of fitness training for various things - I'm pretty athletic so the rugby part of your story caught my attention. You didn't mention exercise in any of your post but said you have a muscular base - so I can only assume that you lift weights? Do you do any cardio? The reason why I ask is because of your carb statement. It is possible to find very low fat complex carbs for energy. And this would alleviate any concern for starvation mode. My diet is also very minimal. I consume or net just like you mentioned, around 1000 calories a day. (depending on my exercise program that week). But I also recognize the need for complex carbs and my 1000 cals a day include that. So I just wanted to give you a couple suggestions. 1) eat the complex carbs or your heavier meals for lunch. It gives your body more time to burn off what is there. The cliche about not eating before bed or later in the day is very accurate for that reason. Eat light in the evening, not heavy like you mentioned. So that's the first thing I think will help you. 2) Focus on complex carbs in meals such as Hormel's 98% fat free vegetarian chili w/ black beans. It's in a can, take it to work, dump it in a bowl and microwave it. Super easy, super fast, no fat and chunked full of nutritional goodies. And it tastes good. If you are home or want to cook it the night before - I've added a half cup of spaghetti noodles to that when I need the extra push of carbs for cardio the next day. I'm a runner so I need that stored energy. You may too depending on your exercise programs.

So there's a couple thoughts I had while reading your post. I don't think starvation mode is a concern for people other than bulimics and anorexia, to be honest. Extreme situations usually have to occur. But to prevent your body from plateauing like you mentioned (which can result from things other than starvation mode), which I've been through before and it's very frustrating, I would add the one high complex carb meal, heavier meals with your lean protein and/or powerfoods to your lunch diet and see if that boosts your metabolism. And then eat light for dinner. Eating power foods will increase the likelihood of your body burning it's own fat and will prevent any plateau concerns; along with that the complex carbs will give you extra energy to burn at the gym doing cardio which will then actually net less overall cals for your whole day. I hope that makes sense, I learned that one the hard way. Here are powerfoods below:

skim milk
oatmeal (not instant)
wholegrain anything
coffee
green tea
water (drink lots of water and green tea to boost metabolism too)
lean meats
raw almonds
apples
asparagus
beans
berries
cabbage
celery
cucumber
eggs (I recommend whites)
olive oil (for cooking subst)
low fat peanut butter
spinach
tomatoes
yogurt.

good luck!!!

I have followed this to lose all my weight from a steroid issue during a medical concern. I gained about 20 pounds on the steroids and today I weighed in and I'm only 2.4 pounds from my normal weight. What I said above with an exercise program really should help, I hope I've been helpful anyway. Good luck and congratulations on the wedding!

Mahhafooznit

I probably have about the same frame as you. I started january 5th/2012 at 230lbs. 5 foot 7 for height. The plan was simple. Lose 2-3 lbs a week or at least 1 lb minimum.

The mission:Walk 1 hour a day on the treadmill, Every Day. 2 days a week perform weight training. Tuesdays and Fridays. Those happen to be my days off. I started at a speed of 3.2 miles an hour and after 10 days I got up to 3.6 miles an hour. Today will be day 16.

For last 2 days I have been a consistant 220lbs. I cut out all forms of liquid other then coffee(black) and water. This avoids the addional sodium in pop/soda.

I eat between 1500-1700 calories a day with maybe 1 day a week hitting the 1800 calorie mark.

The staples of my meals are Quacker OATS (The kind you would use for cooking) mixed with some lemon juice from concentrate for digestion and flavour.
Lean Chicken breast at about 2 a day. Maybe once a week eat 2 seperate meals of 2 (IE 4 that day)
Lean ground turkey patties with pickled hot peppers and 2 table spoons of BBQ sauce.
Every third or fourth day a can of tuna.
Baby spinach salad with 2 table spoons of Kraft extra virgin oil and 2 table spoons of Lemon Juice.
Strawberries. 10 or so berries here and there.

Because I do 1 hour of walking a day it allows me to always be 400 calories or so below my MFP daily limit. You get more energy overall. Doing weights twice a week with hard complex movements means your body is still spending much extra calories repair the muscle. I like pullups on the assisted machine. I cannot do my whole body weight yet. Flat bench press. Dips on the assisted machine and I will pick one other excerise to do. 4 sets for each excersie. somewhere in the 5-8 rep range.

When I get to a point when I can jog instead of walk. Then I think I will decide to stay at 3.6 miles an hour but use incline on treadmill. Other then plain Oats. I like long grain brown rice. Both are very good complex carbs. I avoid bread/wheat as I feel so much better without it. I like apples/oranges here and there and odd times make a broccoli and salsa mixture. (store bought salsa has a good amount of sodium) avoid that mixture the day before you wish to weigh yourself.

Helloitsdan

I just did your dietary numbers from information given and here ya go...

BMR 2005
TDEE 2757 <---thats only if you work out say 3 times a week.
Lean mass appx 166lbs
Fat 55lbs

Obese I Range.

Calories to cut to lose weight 2205 nets you appx 1.10lbs lost per week.
Set macros to:
30% Protein 165g
40% carbs 220g
30% Fat 74g

This allows maximum lean mass retention with loss of fat mas at appx 1.10lb per week as long as you maintain 3 workouts a week for appx 20-45 mins per workout.

You dont eat enough to support your weight loss with the amount of activity you do.

This will also break your plateau by forcing you to metabolize more food thus metabolizing fat.
Eat and enjoy Bro!

btdublin

Thank you for all the help and comments.

Mahha - good to hear from you, you seem to be doing well and sounds a very suitable exercise/diet for you. Good luck!

Helloitsdan - thanks for the calculations, appreciated. I agree, I am not eating enough, especially with the increased workouts. I have not hit a plateau yet, just preparing to avoid it. Think I up my workouts and simultaneously food intake.

I am keeping away from the carbs though. Like Mahha says, I feel better without the bread but I also avoid oats and rice. Seem to get enough carbs from other things, having yogurt or greek yogurt for breakfast etc. My ratios are something like Protein 50%, Fat 30%, Carbs 20% but it is hard to keep below 70g carb per day so I am loosely following that. Keep the protein up to avoid muscle loss and maybe a little gain (I am doing P90X now).

Jillianjr - thanks for your comments. Yes I was of the opinion that unless you are v. low body fat already, 'starvation mode' was unlikely. I have a similar diet to you, although I am more minimal on carbs. Up-ing my power foods like yogurt and nuts for more protein to give me fuel for more workouts.

Thanks all, I will keep you up to date with progress. Hopefully update the photo soon too to show progress!

Huffdogg

just remember that carbs are good on days when you work out heavily. you might sabotage yourself without them.

Helloitsdan

Thank you for all the help and comments.

Mahha - good to hear from you, you seem to be doing well and sounds a very suitable exercise/diet for you. Good luck!

Helloitsdan - thanks for the calculations, appreciated. I agree, I am not eating enough, especially with the increased workouts. I have not hit a plateau yet, just preparing to avoid it. Think I up my workouts and simultaneously food intake.

I am keeping away from the carbs though. Like Mahha says, I feel better without the bread but I also avoid oats and rice. Seem to get enough carbs from other things, having yogurt or greek yogurt for breakfast etc. My ratios are something like Protein 50%, Fat 30%, Carbs 20% but it is hard to keep below 70g carb per day so I am loosely following that. Keep the protein up to avoid muscle loss and maybe a little gain (I am doing P90X now).

Jillianjr - thanks for your comments. Yes I was of the opinion that unless you are v. low body fat already, 'starvation mode' was unlikely. I have a similar diet to you, although I am more minimal on carbs. Up-ing my power foods like yogurt and nuts for more protein to give me fuel for more workouts.

Thanks all, I will keep you up to date with progress. Hopefully update the photo soon too to show progress!

Are you trying to go Ketogenic?

btdublin

Are you trying to go Ketogenic?

Are you referring to high protein levels?

Helloitsdan

Are you trying to go Ketogenic?

Are you referring to high protein levels?

No...lower carbs.
Most guys who kill carbs are trying to lose the rest of the body fat for body building shows and stuff.
Even they will tell you its short term and as soon as you start re feeding carbs you gain back.
Instead of limiting carbs you may want to balance out the plate p30%/C40%/F30% and take on an Intermittent Fating approach.
That can get you lean and keep you lean all year round...if you can handle the fast.
www.leangains.com Check out the guide.

armaretta

I eat more than you and I'm an 125lbs girl. Up your calories and eat all your exercise calories. Your body will thank you.

petreebird

Please read this link....disregard it if you like but starvatoin mode does exist. JMHO

http://diet.com/g/mayo-clinic-diet-fad-diet

Furthermore, the combination of a high-protein diet with unlimited fat and the restriction on carbohydrates puts dieters at risk for conditions such as high blood pressure, heart disease, strokes, and diabetes. According to the American Heart Association, the risk is caused by increased cholesterol levels. This rise in cholesterol is brought on by the increase in fat and the decrease in fiber from fruits, vegetables, and whole-grain products. These foods are complex carbohydrates, and eliminating them causes the body to burn stored fat. While this process causes a weight loss, it triggers a reaction called the ‘‘starvation mode.’’

When the person ends the diet and again eats carbohydrates, the body responds by converting food into fat. This protection against starvation results in a weight gain.

flimflamfloz

dont worry, there is no such thing.
you body can not shut down its metabolism..its impossible, if that happened you'd be dead.
its more likely that your body has adapted and become very efficient at what its doing..so it looks like you arent losing much. there are many physiological factors that can make a person stall. the key is to constantly switch things up.

if you can only run 10 mins one day, the next day you may be able to run 15. and so on, till eventually you can run an hour. your body has become efficient at running. we also can suffer from adaptive thermogensis..which what i said..your body adapts and it impedes your ability to lose weight.

your body doesnt conserve energy on a calorie deficit..it only does this when there is a calorie surplus..its called stored as fat. it is physiologically impossible to hold onto fat/calories on a deficit. every part of your body needs calories to function every day. heart, lungs, liver, muscle, brain...if you dont intake enough, it'll get it from your stored fat and too some extent muscle.

I listened to that guy, I ate 10 calories a day for a full month and I died.

taso42

MPF believes my normal weight should be c. 80kg (176lbs) but this is way too low for my muscle mass. I am realistically aiming for 90kg (198lbs).

MPF initially gave me a cal target of 1,500 per day. I was generally making that on average. But since Xmas I have been trying to really shrink my portions and get my stomach to contract to smaller meals.

..... Now I find I am not hungry on even 1000-1200 a day, and I am getting through the day on 1-2 meals and a few snacks without feeling hungry at all. If i do feel hungry at work I have a coffee and it suppresses my appetite.

..... sometimes only eating a 600-800 cal meal in the evening.

Thought experiment for you. MFP is underestimating your ideal weight. What do you think this means about MFP's estimate of how many calories you should be eating to maintain good fitness? What do you think may happen if you routinely go below this?

Hint: do you want to lose weight or do you want to lose fat? Do you want to look good and feel great or do you want your scale to say a certain number?

albinogorilla

Dont pay attention to those BMI monikers..........I have a ways to go to stop being "obese" by those standards

WinterBlue

I found this helpful;
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/why-big-caloric-deficits-and-lots-of-activity-can-hurt-fat-loss.html
this article is posted elsewhere on MFP. it pretty much talks about why dieting with a VLCD or restricted calorie diet with excessive exercise can be sabotaging. versus lowering the exercise frequency or length of time and moderately cutting calories can be successful...I think right now you're probably on high workout, low cal intake? there are helpful research on this matter; google large calorie deficits along with other key words. if you find another great article let us know. You could also try calorie cycling, or shifting; where you eat VLCD, or low cal for 3 days and higher or maintenance cals on day 4 and if needed day 5. it all depends on your average calorie intake goals. the theory behind this method is that by eating a higher calorie days in the mix of the lows, you reset leptin levels and trick your body into thinking it's getting adequate calories.

I.E.
M 1500
T 1600
W 1400
Th 2400
F 1500
S 1400
Su 1600

---

Average 1628 for the week

continue monday

M 2400

so the week that you only have one free day you will have higher average but only slightly than other weeks. on your high days that's when you kick up the workout...but if you enjoy your workouts then find the calorie level that will allow you to continue losing while being active.

p.s. you're getting a lot of information here; eventually you'll probably benefit from doing some research on the responses you find interesting and go for it. I know you don't have time to do the trial and error but....

Newfiedan

Please read this link....disregard it if you like but I tend to trust things I read from the Mayo Clinic. JMHO

http://diet.com/g/mayo-clinic-diet-fad-diet

Furthermore, the combination of a high-protein diet with unlimited fat and the restriction on carbohydrates puts dieters at risk for conditions such as high blood pressure, heart disease, strokes, and diabetes. According to the American Heart Association, the risk is caused by increased cholesterol levels. This rise in cholesterol is brought on by the increase in fat and the decrease in fiber from fruits, vegetables, and whole-grain products. These foods are complex carbohydrates, and eliminating them causes the body to burn stored fat. While this process causes a weight loss, it triggers a reaction called the ‘‘starvation mode.’’

When the person ends the diet and again eats carbohydrates, the body responds by converting food into fat. This protection against starvation results in a weight gain.

i am sorry but this is pure bullcrap, you can easily go on an keto style diet without gaining back the weight, the problem is that when many go off the diet they overeat carbs, eating excess cals is how you can gain back the weight lost on the diet. As for raising cholesterol that is total BS to, eating fat does not raise cholesterol unless you have an underlying condition. Many obese ppl whom use a diet of this style improve right across the board for blood tests, cholesterol, etc. I am currently using a keto style diet to cut down and lean out under my docs supervision and my cholesterol has dropped down into a very healthy range. So long as you keep your fiber high there are no issues, and there is no correlation to fat in the diet and cholesterol, that is an age old medical myth that has long been disproven. Obese ppl are not fat because they eat fat, they are fat because of overindulgence in cals and carbs.it is true that it is not meant to be a long term diet, at most 6 mths but as for the rest of the stuff you just spewed forth as fact is in fact false. Please do some real research before you start spewing crap like this. I am not pro keto diet, nor am I pro any fad diet but there are methods which work very well and those that do not. I am experimenting with different approaches to find out for myself which works and what does not. A good friend of mine has lost over 85 lbs using a keto style diet over a 6 mth period and has been off the diet for over a year and not gained back a single pound.

ebaymommy

I eat more than you and I'm an 125lbs girl. Up your calories and eat all your exercise calories. Your body will thank you.

Ditto that. I eat twice what you do and I'm a 122lb girl.

Quasita

I am probably one of the reasons why you have been seeing this come up, as my recent blog post has received some decent traffic. http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/Quasita/view/let-s-be-truly-honest-about-starvation-mode-199121

The fact of the matter is, people keep saying starvation mode "doesn't exist" because the truth of the matter is, most people never risk developing the disorder. However, the reality of the syndrome is, it DOES exist and if you do not take care of yourself and fuel your body appropriately, over months it can develop into a difficult scenario.

Wondering about it? I cite a couple of references in my post, as well as tell you how to find more information about it. Please read what I wrote out.

I am proof positive that starvation modes do exist in the Western world. If I could scan my medical records in to shut everyone up about its existence, I would!

Cutting calories is not always the best way to lose the unwanted weight. If you've plateaued significantly, you should discuss it with a medical dietician or a trainer IN PERSON so that they can assess your personal situation.

Sometimes just having a day where you eat everything you want and exceeding your calorie limits can jumpstart you back in the right direction. You have to convince your body that you're going to be eating a lot more so it will be trying to burn more. Just please, please be careful!