cardio- thoughts?

whitymarie

I don't think it is a waste. But I think you can def maximize your cardio sessions so you don't have to spend hours upon hours doing it. I'm working with a trainer program that focuses on high intensity interval training. Sessions are always a little diff but the basic idea is a short warm up (2 mins) moderate intensity (and that has to be determined by the individual and what you can handle) then it;s rocketed up to high intensity going all out for 1 min. then backed down to moderate again for a 2 min rest period and then high intensity all out again but you bump up the resistance or speed or incline a little bit. Then a rest again for 2 mins.

Sorry if that was confusing but you really push yourself hard and you burn calories faster ergo you don't have to be on there for hours. I like it because I have to focus on what I'm doing rather than mindless steady state that I get bored doing.

Just an idea at the end of the day I don't think any cardio is a waste!!!

scottb81

This is kinda what I was looking for. I am maintaining on Jamie Eason live fit trainer. I have gained a very nice amount of muscle I would say.. you just cant see it I am having a hard time loosing fat. I just started to up my cardio, if that was a bad idea then I did not want to dig myself into a hole. I definatly do not want to loose the muscle that I have gained. I usually do my strenght training, usually takes 30-45 mins, then I get on the treadmill and switch it up doing fast paced walking incline, HITT or the eylptical. Does this sound like a good routine, or should I change it up a bit to see some fat loss?

To add some more context, you are not going to run out of glycogen doing cardio until at least 90 min to 2 hours of hard running. If you are running easy it will take a lot longer.

grinch031

I do all my training runs (6+ miles) in a glycogen-depleted state due to a low-carb diet. I have found as long as I eat enough protein, any break down of muscles to fuel my brain is completely reversed by both lifting weights and eating adequate protein. The only proof I have of this is that I am just as strong as I was before, in fact I got stronger because I significantly increased my protein at the same time that I started my training plan. If anything when I used to lift weights, I was not eating enough protein because I was eating mostly carbs during that point in time.

Low-carb does not mean by default glycogen-depleted - though it is easier to cause that.

If you are always eating enough protein, the body is just breaking that down for glucose first if not enough carbs.
And since that is harder on your system to get glucose from amino acids, you are just stressing different parts of your system.

So while you may indeed be in a low-glucose storage state, that just means that during extended periods of a exercise, your body turns to breaking down muscle quicker than it would otherwise.
And then you eat enough protein to build it back up.

But their is a difference between the muscle repair that occurs after weight lifting say, and the muscle re-building that occurs after it is torn down for energy. Former makes it stronger, latter just gets it back.

But still, by switching to my latest diet, I'm likely burning a much higher percentage of fat for fuel than ever before. So the amount of protein needed for glucose isn't even comparable to the amount of glucose I was using back when I was eating mostly carbs.

angied80

I don't think it is a waste. But I think you can def maximize your cardio sessions so you don't have to spend hours upon hours doing it. I'm working with a trainer program that focuses on high intensity interval training. Sessions are always a little diff but the basic idea is a short warm up (2 mins) moderate intensity (and that has to be determined by the individual and what you can handle) then it;s rocketed up to high intensity going all out for 1 min. then backed down to moderate again for a 2 min rest period and then high intensity all out again but you bump up the resistance or speed or incline a little bit. Then a rest again for 2 mins.

Sorry if that was confusing but you really push yourself hard and you burn calories faster ergo you don't have to be on there for hours. I like it because I have to focus on what I'm doing rather than mindless steady state that I get bored doing.

Just an idea at the end of the day I don't think any cardio is a waste!!!

Yea I try to incorporate HITT into my cardio, run at 9.0 for 30 seconds, off to rest for 30 sec, run at 9.0 for 30 secs. I have found that if I dont have much time thats the way to go. I enjoy it as well.

grinch031

According to bodybuilding.com I should be taking in 1640 calories a day, I find that hard. Most days I usually get between 1300-1400 and I am stuffed and my energy is very good. I "think" I am eaSting healthy. That is something that I have really been working hard on. I am slowly mastering it. So are you saying since my energy levels are good, maybe I should try lowering my caloric intake and see what happens? By maybe just 100-200 cals or so?

I'm not a fan of calorie counting, so I'll stay out of that one. I think energy levels matter in that if there is any truth to the idea that too low calorie intake leads to a starvation mode, then that would require the body to slowdown enough that it doesn't seem feasible that exercise performance could remain at a high level. In order to be consistent with the laws of thermodynamics, your body has no choice but to slow down your activity as well.

Azdak

Other things I have heard is at that point it starts to burn muscle and not fat. But I dont think that is necessarily true is it? That would be more based on what your diet is, correct? I think there are alot of myths out there, sometimes its hard to determine which ones are accurate! Thanks for the help guys! I'll keep up my cardio!

Who ever is spouting this stuff, don't use them as trainer.

if you run out of glycogen, required for burning fat, then your body will break down muscle to convert amino acids to glycogen, and it keeps burning fat. You are not likely to run out of fat energy, since it has 3500 calories per lb. Even then folks got an extra lb to spare for that.

How much glycogen you got stored ready for use? Avg 1500 to 2000 calories worth. More if you aerobically train.

That is the "wall" people hit when doing marathons and are not pro-athletes with correct training program. Sugar ran out, muscle is used, and fat still is used.

There are a lot of myths. You must use discernment as to where you hear things, and research.

Like, please research what I just said.

I do all my training runs (6+ miles) in a glycogen-depleted state due to a low-carb diet. I have found as long as I eat enough protein, any break down of muscles to fuel my brain is completely reversed by both lifting weights and eating adequate protein. The only proof I have of this is that I am just as strong as I was before, in fact I got stronger because I significantly increased my protein at the same time that I started my training plan. If anything when I used to lift weights prior to this, I was not eating enough protein because I was eating mostly carbs during that point in time.

You are doing fine, but "getting stronger" is not evidence that you are getting adequate protein. You can gain considerable amounts of strength with no increase in muscle mass at all. Increasing protein intake may have been coincidental with your strength increase, but it is likely not the cause. In any case, increasing protein intake is not going to hurt and can definitely help conserve lean mass, even in the case of high volumes of cardio, so you are doing the right thing.

nurse_christieyne

Its all about context here. If you want to be a long-distance runner and see continued improvement, you must run more than 30 minutes at a time and you must do it frequently. However if you want to burn fat and improve physical fitness, then 30+ minutes of cardio is not the best use of your time. You are better off doing resistance training and high intensity intervals. But if cardio keeps your more motivated, better that than nothing!

Oh and I am in marathon training and have actually gotten stronger because I always lift weights before I run, and I have upped my protein intake to prevent muscle loss. I've definitely burned fat without losing muscle in recent weeks.

Thanks.

grinch031

Other things I have heard is at that point it starts to burn muscle and not fat. But I dont think that is necessarily true is it? That would be more based on what your diet is, correct? I think there are alot of myths out there, sometimes its hard to determine which ones are accurate! Thanks for the help guys! I'll keep up my cardio!

Who ever is spouting this stuff, don't use them as trainer.

if you run out of glycogen, required for burning fat, then your body will break down muscle to convert amino acids to glycogen, and it keeps burning fat. You are not likely to run out of fat energy, since it has 3500 calories per lb. Even then folks got an extra lb to spare for that.

How much glycogen you got stored ready for use? Avg 1500 to 2000 calories worth. More if you aerobically train.

That is the "wall" people hit when doing marathons and are not pro-athletes with correct training program. Sugar ran out, muscle is used, and fat still is used.

There are a lot of myths. You must use discernment as to where you hear things, and research.

Like, please research what I just said.

I do all my training runs (6+ miles) in a glycogen-depleted state due to a low-carb diet. I have found as long as I eat enough protein, any break down of muscles to fuel my brain is completely reversed by both lifting weights and eating adequate protein. The only proof I have of this is that I am just as strong as I was before, in fact I got stronger because I significantly increased my protein at the same time that I started my training plan. If anything when I used to lift weights prior to this, I was not eating enough protein because I was eating mostly carbs during that point in time.

You are doing fine, but "getting stronger" is not evidence that you are getting adequate protein. You can gain considerable amounts of strength with no increase in muscle mass at all. Increasing protein intake may have been coincidental with your strength increase, but it is likely not the cause. In any case, increasing protein intake is not going to hurt and can definitely help conserve lean mass, even in the case of high volumes of cardio, so you are doing the right thing.

Well I have little doubt that I'm getting adequate protein now, just by mere fact that I eat a lot more leaner meats over fatty foods now, and severely restrict carbs. If anything I worry I'm eating too much protein.

But anyways I've done numerous long distance races over the last few years and lifted weights, and it seems I did lose muscle (or at least strength) while training for a race on my very high carb diet. So that's why I think the added protein made the difference.

Di3012

Ok so I have heard from multiple people that doing any cardio over 30 mins is basically a waste. They say that your body stops resisting after 30 mins. Anyone have any thoughts supporting this or against this? I would appreciat as much feedback as I can get. I mean... who wants to do more cardio than is necessary?! :bigsmile:

It's not a waste, you are burning calories, your heart is working and you will eventually get fitter.

The body does not resist after 30 minutes, if it did, all those track and field athletes, roadrunners, cross country runners, professional and amateur alike would not bother continuing.

It all depends on what a person would be training for. A person training to run a marathon or even a half marathon would not find it much use if they only trained for 30 minutes at a time for instance.

There are many, many rumours and myths that fly around all over the place. If a person only wants to do 30 minutes or under cardio per session, absolutely no problems whatsoever, but for some peopole 30 minutes just is not enough.

Do whatever you feel comfortable with, if you feel sick or ill during, say a run, then rethink your session.

Di3012

Its all about context here. If you want to be a long-distance runner and see continued improvement, you must run more than 30 minutes at a time and you must do it frequently. However if you want to burn fat and improve physical fitness, then 30+ minutes of cardio is not the best use of your time. You are better off doing resistance training and high intensity intervals. But if cardio keeps your more motivated, better that than nothing!

Oh and I am in marathon training and have actually gotten stronger because I always lift weights before I run, and I have upped my protein intake to prevent muscle loss. I've definitely burned fat without losing muscle in recent weeks.

What sort of weight exercises do you do for running training? I am seriously thinking of getting back into weights after years away. I run a lot, but never used weight training for my running.

What do you do, an overall body session or legs or what? Also, do you lift heavy or light.

Sorry for all the questions lol. :flowerforyou:

grinch031

Its all about context here. If you want to be a long-distance runner and see continued improvement, you must run more than 30 minutes at a time and you must do it frequently. However if you want to burn fat and improve physical fitness, then 30+ minutes of cardio is not the best use of your time. You are better off doing resistance training and high intensity intervals. But if cardio keeps your more motivated, better that than nothing!

Oh and I am in marathon training and have actually gotten stronger because I always lift weights before I run, and I have upped my protein intake to prevent muscle loss. I've definitely burned fat without losing muscle in recent weeks.

What sort of weight exercises do you do for running training? I am seriously thinking of getting back into weights after years away. I run a lot, but never used weight training for my running.

What do you do, an overall body session or legs or what? Also, do you lift heavy or light.

Sorry for all the questions lol. :flowerforyou:

Oh I don't do weight training specifically for running, I just do it to stay strong and fit in general. I play tennis and do other activities where having strength comes in handy. I just work the whole body really. I am big on squats/leg press though for lower body.

heybales

But still, by switching to my latest diet, I'm likely burning a much higher percentage of fat for fuel than ever before. So the amount of protein needed for glucose isn't even comparable to the amount of glucose I was using back when I was eating mostly carbs.

The diet could encourage or discourage fat burning through most of the day, and at the beginning of exercise. But not once you get going.

Only through some specific training will you change the ratio of fat/carb burning at the same heart rate.

Your level of intensity is going to have a bigger effect than diet, during the exercise.

That level of intensity determines what % of energy is coming from fat. The rest from glucose. Glucose either stored in muscles/liver, or glucose converted from broken down muscle because of little stored glucose.

Training can cause your "fat-burning" zone to be used at higher and higher heart rates, or level of intensity. As your lactate threshold goes up, so do those other zones (usually).

Diet change just means you aren't starting your workout in fat storage mode because insulin was spiked.

Even now with diet change, If you workout high intensity enough, you can still easily burn more carbs than fat, no matter what your diet is doing.

grinch031

But still, by switching to my latest diet, I'm likely burning a much higher percentage of fat for fuel than ever before. So the amount of protein needed for glucose isn't even comparable to the amount of glucose I was using back when I was eating mostly carbs.

The diet could encourage or discourage fat burning through most of the day, and at the beginning of exercise. But not once you get going.

Only through some specific training will you change the ratio of fat/carb burning at the same heart rate.

Your level of intensity is going to have a bigger effect than diet, during the exercise.

That level of intensity determines what % of energy is coming from fat. The rest from glucose. Glucose either stored in muscles/liver, or glucose converted from broken down muscle because of little stored glucose.

Training can cause your "fat-burning" zone to be used at higher and higher heart rates, or level of intensity. As your lactate threshold goes up, so do those other zones (usually).

Diet change just means you aren't starting your workout in fat storage mode because insulin was spiked.

Even now with diet change, If you workout high intensity enough, you can still easily burn more carbs than fat, no matter what your diet is doing.

My understanding is that when switching from a high-carb to a low-carb diet, protein is only broken down when glucose is needed to fuel the brain, not to provide the same amount of glucose that your body was used to burning at that intensity back when glycogen stores were full. In other words, I've read from multiple sources that advocate lowing carb intake to switch from being a sugar-burner (burning mostly glucose for aerobic activity) to a fat-burner (burning mostly fat). Even at the same intensity.

Di3012

Its all about context here. If you want to be a long-distance runner and see continued improvement, you must run more than 30 minutes at a time and you must do it frequently. However if you want to burn fat and improve physical fitness, then 30+ minutes of cardio is not the best use of your time. You are better off doing resistance training and high intensity intervals. But if cardio keeps your more motivated, better that than nothing!

Oh and I am in marathon training and have actually gotten stronger because I always lift weights before I run, and I have upped my protein intake to prevent muscle loss. I've definitely burned fat without losing muscle in recent weeks.

What sort of weight exercises do you do for running training? I am seriously thinking of getting back into weights after years away. I run a lot, but never used weight training for my running.

What do you do, an overall body session or legs or what? Also, do you lift heavy or light.

Sorry for all the questions lol. :flowerforyou:

Oh I don't do weight training specifically for running, I just do it to stay strong and fit in general. I play tennis and do other activities where having strength comes in handy. I just work the whole body really. I am big on squats/leg press though for lower body.

'Tis a good idea. I might start to incorporate weights into my running training and see how I get on.

Thanks :flowerforyou:

heybales

My understanding is that when switching from a high-carb to a low-carb diet, protein is only broken down when glucose is needed to fuel the brain, not to provide the same amount of glucose that your body was used to burning at that intensity back when glycogen stores were full. In other words, I've read from multiple sources that advocate lowing carb intake to switch from being a sugar-burner (burning mostly glucose for aerobic activity) to a fat-burner (burning mostly fat). Even at the same intensity.

Yes, I've read that too in the past, and was skeptical.
And went and looked at studies that said the diet doesn't magically train what your body is aerobically capable of doing.

Because that is what you are talking about. Aerobic capacity.

Those comments by the more truthful sites is more about the focus of burning all day long, not during exercise.

grinch031

My understanding is that when switching from a high-carb to a low-carb diet, protein is only broken down when glucose is needed to fuel the brain, not to provide the same amount of glucose that your body was used to burning at that intensity back when glycogen stores were full. In other words, I've read from multiple sources that advocate lowing carb intake to switch from being a sugar-burner (burning mostly glucose for aerobic activity) to a fat-burner (burning mostly fat). Even at the same intensity.

Yes, I've read that too in the past, and was skeptical.
And went and looked at studies that said the diet doesn't magically train what your body is aerobically capable of doing.

Because that is what you are talking about. Aerobic capacity.

Those comments by the more truthful sites is more about the focus of burning all day long, not during exercise.

Just to clarify what you're saying. So I've been running a long time, mostly eating a high carb diet. I already had a solid aerobic base so nothing new there. I've been low-carbing for 2 months and have fully adapted such that I can continue to perform at the same level as I did on my previous diet. With that being said, are you saying that I'm still burning the same amount of glucose as before during training, meaning instead of pulling it from glycogen stores, it is now breaking down a lot of muscle?

heybales

Just to clarify what you're saying. So I've been running a long time, mostly eating a high carb diet. I already had a solid aerobic base so nothing new there. I've been low-carbing for 2 months and have fully adapted such that I can continue to perform at the same level as I did on my previous diet. With that being said, are you saying that I'm still burning the same amount of glucose as before during training, meaning instead of pulling it from glycogen stores, it is now breaking down a lot of muscle?

If there are glycogen stores, they will be used first. If not, then muscle. Unless you have improved aerobically from before, same ratio.

A study I was just looking at the other day mentioned that early on in the workout, energy supply has about 2% from protein even if plenty of glucose, and that could come from just the amino acids already available in system, and then some from normal muscle breakdown because of it being used. Then purposeful breakdown because it is there.

After you start getting close to glucose stores being used up, and the body sees that as bad for the brain so it starts before all used up, muscle can be broken down, and energy needs can have 10-15% come from protein. At this point, that means muscle since you already used up free ones.

During this whole time, if your level of effort and the aerobic system can handle 60% of energy needs from fat, that stays about the same. Longer you go, slightly more can come from fat, but this is now into that low glucose stage. The amount of fat your trained cells can use for that level of effort doesn't change much. it is what they can do.

And as you suggest, this aerobic capacity didn't change with your diet, because that's what it is at this point.

Now, if the diet has you loosing more weight, muscles moving less mass means less effort at same pace. Better fat burning. Or, move the pace faster! Same fat burning.

Now, the diet change is effecting how fast you get into that protein breakdown stage.

That's why those Primal/Paleo diets do NOT recommend long cardio. Forgot their term for.

Because you can't possibly rebuild your glucose stores on that low of carbs, and so day after day you will enter that zone quicker. And I've seen the the tweaks from those that just love the cardio, so they do either workout in better zone, or eat more carbs at right time (within 30 min after workout), to deal with the above effect.

ojell

I didn't read all of the responses, but I just wanted to say that honestly, I always thought that 30 mins is good if you want to "maintain" but I've always believed you need to do more than that to actually lose weight.

heybales

Grinch031,

Here you go. Not just stories from others, seems to be an official support for it now. Recognition that many love to exercise and do those long events. Even if it is "Chronic Cardio".

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/how-to-fuel-a-marathon/#axzz1kRK3f4Hu

Having yielded to those of you who still insist on running a marathon, yesterday I offered a training strategy that gets you the best results with the least amount of damage. Today’s post is about fueling a marathon – what food to eat and when to eat it. It’s not solely about race day nutrition, because if you just focused on what to eat the day of the race, you’d be missing out on a lot (and you’d likely have problems finishing, or at the very least your performance would suffer). It’s about what to eat while training, a few days before the race, and the day of the race itself. This is the stuff I would do if I had to go back and do another marathon with my current knowledge. I might tweak things slightly if I was trying to make the Olympics, but for the average, relatively fit Primal dude or gal who wants to check this off their bucket list? This is the perfect way to fuel your efforts. And this works equally as well for those of you who think a century ride (100 miles on a bike) might be in the cards.

Dave198lbs

I didn't read all of the responses, but I just wanted to say that honestly, I always thought that 30 mins is good if you want to "maintain" but I've always believed you need to do more than that to actually lose weight.

you can lose weight doing 5 minutes if 5 minutes is more than what you were doing before.

lovinbeinold

I haven't heard that exactly. But my cardiologist told me to work back up to 30 to 40 minutes a day on cardio exercise. So, I am assuming that is the ideal amount.

I can only do about 7 to 8 minutes now, and he wants me up to 30 or 40. Then just to keep doing that every day.

ImJDLookatME

Bump

spyder_rose

Ok so I have heard from multiple people that doing any cardio over 30 mins is basically a waste. They say that your body stops resisting after 30 mins. Anyone have any thoughts supporting this or against this? I would appreciat as much feedback as I can get. I mean... who wants to do more cardio than is necessary?! :bigsmile:

if your body stops resisting at 30 minutes...who or what is doing the work at minute 31?

Love it!!!

I have been told that you need to do AT LEAST 30 minutes cardio a day for your heart to benefit from it...

sblueyez

I aim for 60 minutes of exercise. It helps lower my a1c (keeping me further from diabetes) and keeps me at a lower risk for cardiovascular problems. I lowered my a1c from 5.7 to 5.2 by doing cardio, even light cardio, an hour a day. Any thing over 30 minutes is definitely not a waste in the long run.

angel79202

Ok so I have heard from multiple people that doing any cardio over 30 mins is basically a waste. They say that your body stops resisting after 30 mins. Anyone have any thoughts supporting this or against this? I would appreciat as much feedback as I can get. I mean... who wants to do more cardio than is necessary?! :bigsmile:

this is not true..but i wish it was..I do 11-12 hours a week

Dustinryan24

ive heard this bs too.. curious who thought this up?

grinch031

ive heard this bs too.. curious who thought this up?

studies show...<enter bs here>

Dave198lbs

Ok so I have heard from multiple people that doing any cardio over 30 mins is basically a waste. They say that your body stops resisting after 30 mins. Anyone have any thoughts supporting this or against this? I would appreciat as much feedback as I can get. I mean... who wants to do more cardio than is necessary?! :bigsmile:

if your body stops resisting at 30 minutes...who or what is doing the work at minute 31?

Love it!!!

I have been told that you need to do AT LEAST 30 minutes cardio a day for your heart to benefit from it...

depends on your intensity

Devlyn_P

Ok so regarding cardio. You want first identify what you are trying to do:

Fitness Target Zones: Heart Rates

Exercise Level Benefits Intensity Level (Max HR %)
Light Exercise Healthy Heart Maintenance 50% - 60%
Weight Loss Burn Fat & Calories 60% - 70%
Base - Aerobic Increase stamina & endurance 70% - 80%
Conditioning Fitness , muscle building, and athletic training 80% - 90%
Athletic - elite Athletic training and endurance 90% - 100%

Time < HRM
As time increases so does caloric expenditure but based on the intensity from the above HR%'s.
Someone can run for 45m and burn the same amount of calories versus someone who ran for 20m. It comes down to intensity.

Macrocarpa

I'd be only too happy to go on a 10 mile run with that person to test the theory...

I suspect they've heard it from a guy who heard it from a guy who heard the tail end of a conversation with a professional athlete or something, talking about intervals training rather than steady cardio.