Starvation mode is a myth, so why do we keep saying it exist

Sabine_Stroehm

OP: So what do YOU think is a good healthy, safe, deficit?

grinch031

I guarantee the majority of MFP members who don't lose weight on 1200 calorie-ish diets are either 1) retaining water or 2) completely underestimating the number of calories they are eating.

Lauren8239

Here is my experience of starvation mode.
I was anorexic for 3 years. Some days I ate an orange and a piece of toast and thought I was wonderful for it (more fool me)

In the short term (1-6) months eating under 800 or 900 cals a day:
Makes you irritable, grumpy and a pain to live with
Your breath will smell
Your face skin will dry out and/or you'll get spots
You will feel nauseous with hunger
You stomach will make noise all the time
You will lose hell of a lot of weight (up to 7lbs a week)

6 -12 months
Your period will stop
Your appetite will be gone.
You will have trained yourself to go without food.
Your energy will be non-existant
Your circle of friends will have whittered away as you fall out or cut out all of them in turn because of your eating
Your family will be in a panic about your appearance
Your weight loss will slow down to about 1lb a week (or less)
Your hair will thin

12-18 months
You are really ill now
You panic about your weight loss and drop down to 300-500 cals because some other anorexic on an internet forum said this worked for her
The other Anas on the forums are your only "friends" now
All your muscle has gone
The skin all over your body and your face will be in a shocking condition
You are cold all the time, a horrible soul sucking coldness that seems to come from within
Organ damage has started
Your hair will stop growing and may start to fall out

18 months +
As well as everything else above
The symptoms of mental illness appear (paranoia being the most common)
Irreversible organ damage may have started
Lumps of your hair will fall out leaving you with bald patches

After recovery:
Your body clings on to every calories like a dying man to a shipwreak and you put on weight. You think dropping back to your previous habits will lose it - it doesn't. What do you do then?

Those are the consequences of surviving on anorexic portions of food. Those are the ones I saw myself and others in real-life support groups go through. Some lived, some died. Those that lived took years to get over the consequences of our eating habits. That is the reality of eating half what a woman needs to survive on.

Do you know that anyone can edit wikipedia? Do you really want to ruin your life because someone thought it would be clever to justify their lifestyle choices by lying about the consequences of eating like this?

Is this really the path you want to go down? I am begging you now to stop before it is too late and you embark on a lifestyle that negatively shapes the rest of your life.

Right now, I am now losing 2lbs a week eating around about 2000 cals a day. I am happy, healthy and energetic.

Be smart before it is too late for you.

Wonderful post, and I'm so glad you are recovering. Your post actually made me a bit teary. :flowerforyou:

ninerbuff

Scientific FACT not denied by any organization related to nutrition, weight loss, dieting, etc.

Eating less than your body requires WILL reduce your METABOLIC RATE. This is NOT DISPUTED. Extreme calorie deficits lower it even further and can reduce hunger.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

joejccva71

It's not that starvation mode is a myth, it's just very difficult for your body to get in it.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/research-review/meal-frequency-and-energy-balance-research-review.html

FlaxMilk

I am eating 1100 calories with a periodic day of 1300 or so, but I am also 4'11". I can't really believe that 1100 is too low for me.

I'm also under 5ft and losing on 1600. Your height doesn't stop you working out your real TDEE and losing weight with a sensible deficit.

I'm sure some people don't think they are doing this right unless they are feeling deprived.

LadyRaven, did I read your profile right in that you started a few months ago at 189? Your weight has more to do with how much you can eat than your height. I really do believe that for someone with my combination height and weight (5'0, 119), it is ok for me to eat 1200 most days, that I am meeting my body's needs. My BMR is below 1200 calories, and even at the highest activity setting, MFP still recommends 1350. (And I am nowhere near a construction worker or whatever it was. )

suemar74

You lost me at "Via Wiki".

Seriously.

hanna6774

katysmelly

Here is my experience of starvation mode.
I was anorexic for 3 years. Some days I ate an orange and a piece of toast and thought I was wonderful for it (more fool me)

In the short term (1-6) months eating under 800 or 900 cals a day:
Makes you irritable, grumpy and a pain to live with
Your breath will smell
Your face skin will dry out and/or you'll get spots
You will feel nauseous with hunger
You stomach will make noise all the time
You will lose hell of a lot of weight (up to 7lbs a week)

6 -12 months
Your period will stop
Your appetite will be gone.
You will have trained yourself to go without food.
Your energy will be non-existant
Your circle of friends will have whittered away as you fall out or cut out all of them in turn because of your eating
Your family will be in a panic about your appearance
Your weight loss will slow down to about 1lb a week (or less)
Your hair will thin

12-18 months
You are really ill now
You panic about your weight loss and drop down to 300-500 cals because some other anorexic on an internet forum said this worked for her
The other Anas on the forums are your only "friends" now
All your muscle has gone
The skin all over your body and your face will be in a shocking condition
You are cold all the time, a horrible soul sucking coldness that seems to come from within
Organ damage has started
Your hair will stop growing and may start to fall out

18 months +
As well as everything else above
The symptoms of mental illness appear (paranoia being the most common)
Irreversible organ damage may have started
Lumps of your hair will fall out leaving you with bald patches

After recovery:
Your body clings on to every calories like a dying man to a shipwreak and you put on weight. You think dropping back to your previous habits will lose it - it doesn't. What do you do then?

Those are the consequences of surviving on anorexic portions of food. Those are the ones I saw myself and others in real-life support groups go through. Some lived, some died. Those that lived took years to get over the consequences of our eating habits. That is the reality of eating half what a woman needs to survive on.

Do you know that anyone can edit wikipedia? Do you really want to ruin your life because someone thought it would be clever to justify their lifestyle choices by lying about the consequences of eating like this?

Is this really the path you want to go down? I am begging you now to stop before it is too late and you embark on a lifestyle that negatively shapes the rest of your life.

Right now, I am now losing 2lbs a week eating around about 2000 cals a day. I am happy, healthy and energetic.

Be smart before it is too late for you.

Wonderful post, and I'm so glad you are recovering. Your post actually made me a bit teary. :flowerforyou:

I agree. Beautiful post.

This isn't just about "losing weight." It's also about becoming FIT. This is My FITNESS Pal.

BalenciaLynn

If I'm not hungry, I'm not going to eat. Plain and simple. Eating when you are not hungry is a big no no, so if I'm below whatever calorie goal I may be pursuing... I don't really give a flying f**k.

I agree, if im not hungry i wont force food down my throat just to please everyone else.

BalenciaLynn

OP: So what do YOU think is a good healthy, safe, deficit?

Its no about what she thinks is right for everyone, i think she knows whats right for herself and thats what she will continue using, Not everyones body is made the same way so what she thinks is good and healthy might not be for someone else.

BalenciaLynn

Seriously, stop it.

Starvation mode ("Starvation response" if you want to research it) only exists for males with 5% body fat or less and females with 10% body fat or less.

A link with cited sources:

http://fitnessblackbook.com/main/starvation-mode-why-you-probably-never-need-to-worry-about-it/

Via Wiki:

Starvation mode is a state in which the body is responding to prolonged periods of low caloric intake levels. During short periods of caloric abstinence, the human body will burn primarily free fatty acids from body fat stores. After prolonged periods of starvation the body has DEPLETED ITS BODY FAT and begins to burn lean tissue and muscle as a fuel source.

(emphasis mine).

You should eat a caloric deficit that's comfortable for you regardless of the numbers.

can you seriously stop encouraging people to become unhealthy eaters. :noway:

Saying thats shes encouraging people to become unhealthy eaters is a bit rude.

People need to end all this and just realize that this is going to be a never ending battle.

People need to stop giving their opinions and JUST WORRY ABOUT THEMSELVES.

Azdak

If I'm not hungry, I'm not going to eat. Plain and simple. Eating when you are not hungry is a big no no, so if I'm below whatever calorie goal I may be pursuing... I don't really give a flying f**k.

Hunger is a hormonal response that can be trained. If you consistently under eat, you will train your body to not be hungry.

Or you'll just train your body not to give a flying f**k.

81Katz

I think on some levels it's real, although falling into a true starvation mode would take a little while. Not like how some tell others if they do not immediately eat back their exercise calories for one day "OMG eat those calories or you'll go into starvation mode!!!"

No you won't... not after one work out, 1 hour, 1 day and probably not even 1 week if you're not eating exercise calories.
Just saying...

LaMujerMasBonitaDelMundo

OP: So what do YOU think is a good healthy, safe, deficit?

Its no about what she thinks is right for everyone, i think she knows whats right for herself and thats what she will continue using, Not everyones body is made the same way so what she thinks is good and healthy might not be for someone else.

If that is the case then why she is telling everyone to "stop it, seriously"? Honestly we are all here to improve our lives & posts like this can mislead many people & of course you got to expect a lot of argument from lots of people. Sometimes it is better to keep things to yourself than to mislead the entire community. Just because that one works for you it doesn't mean that it can be applicable to anyone. Yes I know this is internet & there is freedom of speech BUT freedom comes with responsibility.

Azdak

Seriously, stop it.

Starvation mode ("Starvation response" if you want to research it) only exists for males with 5% body fat or less and females with 10% body fat or less.

A link with cited sources:

http://fitnessblackbook.com/main/starvation-mode-why-you-probably-never-need-to-worry-about-it/

Via Wiki:

Starvation mode is a state in which the body is responding to prolonged periods of low caloric intake levels. During short periods of caloric abstinence, the human body will burn primarily free fatty acids from body fat stores. After prolonged periods of starvation the body has DEPLETED ITS BODY FAT and begins to burn lean tissue and muscle as a fuel source.

(emphasis mine).

You should eat a caloric deficit that's comfortable for you regardless of the numbers.

I'm starting to think that critical reading of scientific studies should be a mandatory subject in PRIMARY school and not something that only ppl in science grad schools are thought.
here is my response from one other thread referring to the same study:
"what if it's exactly this extremely high level of physical activity that kept them from inducing starvation mode responses (loss of muscles)? Their training can be EXTREME (my partner is an ex army officer) and "I do P90X twice a day" doesn't even come close to it. Plus, based on what I heard from my partner about his officer training, these guys/girls don't exactly have three meals a day - their regime includes a lot of IF-like periods (like having time to eat only once a day when in a field and similar), and we all know - fasting -> growth hormone -> protection of muscle mass. I mean, it makes sense: your body won't get rid of what you need for as long as it can. If you use your muscles heavily, body will preserve them as long as it can (until it hits a minimal level of body fat required to survive). Your body doesn't know if you are just dieting and exercising a lot or are you in a middle of a famine and use all this physical activity just to find that little food you are getting.

Now, I noticed that ppl here can be extremely polarized about this. The starvation mode sceptics tend to think that if you mention starvation mode you must be saying that someone will start losing their muscles if she skips breakfast or goes without food for 48h. That's certainly not what I'm talking about (actually I think that IF sounds like a great and very logical thing). I'm talking about metabolic response to a prolonged, very high calorie deficit (but not high enough to kill you) - how high is "very high" and how long is "prolonged" depends on things like your starting weight and your genetics. Women who live on 700cal a day for years without being able to lose weight would probably disagree with the statement that most of us don't have to worry about it."

if you go and read more studies on caloric restriction (CR), you will see that loss of lean mass is well documented even in low CR diets. seems that he only way to keep your muscles while on CR is to use them (start lifting, people).

You touch on a big part of the disagreement: people using the same term, but having substantially different understandings about what the term means and the underlying physiology.

Unfortunately, the term "starvation mode" has been shoved down people's throat both by fitness grifters looking to market themselves and lazy writers who just parrot the same cliches over and over. Hence the backlash.

While any number of people may experience some (usually temporary) adverse metabolic responses to dieting, very few people will ever experience "starvation mode" in their lifetime. It's not so much that "starvation mode" is a myth as much as it is a term that is grossly mis- and overused.

adrian_indy

There is enough real science, trainers and nutritionists out there that with a little research, everyone should be able to make up their own mind. Nothing being said here will change any minds, and I do believe all of our bodies are so different that we can never be 100% sure how each of us will respond to huge caloric deficites. That being said....good luck. I wouldn't lie and say I didn't think the odds are against you if you want to drop cals dramatically, thay I think you'll lose muscle tone, drive, stamina, and a myriad of other things, but what can I say to convince you otherwise? Good luck.

opus649

Eating less than your body requires WILL reduce your METABOLIC RATE. This is NOT DISPUTED.

True, any calorie deficit will result in a slower metabolism, the majority of which is caused by a lower body weight. Less mass (lean or otherwise) burns less calories. Without a calorie deficit, though, you can't lose weight. If you want to weigh 50 pounds less, you have to accept that you won't be able to eat as much at your new weight.

Extreme calorie deficits lower it even further...

Can you cite any scientific study that demonstrates the extent of adaptive themogenesis is directly correlated to the size of calorie restriction? I have been unable to find one.

I hope everyone understands that if you lose weight, you also lower the number of calories required to maintain your new body weight. It doesn't matter how slowly you lose it. A 200 lb person simply requires more calories than a 150 lb person. What is at issue is whether or not quick weight loss results in an "extra" drop in metabolism over slow weight loss. To date, I have yet to see a single scientific study that demonstrates such a difference (not saying there isn't one, just that it's not currently "undisputed").

BalenciaLynn

OP: So what do YOU think is a good healthy, safe, deficit?

Its no about what she thinks is right for everyone, i think she knows whats right for herself and thats what she will continue using, Not everyones body is made the same way so what she thinks is good and healthy might not be for someone else.

If that is the case then why she is telling everyone to "stop it, seriously"? Honestly we are all here to improve our lives & posts like this can mislead many people & of course you got to expect a lot of argument from lots of people. Sometimes it is better to keep things to yourself than to mislead the entire community. Just because that one works for you it doesn't mean that it can be applicable to anyone. Yes I know this is internet & there is freedom of speech BUT freedom comes with responsibility.

With all the people on here that makes posts about how you should be upping your calories why cant she put her two cents in on how its not always right for everyone ?

sleepytexan

I don't care how any of these fools choose to eat.

I average 2000 calories a day, 44 years old, 4 kids, 5'4, 130#, athletic bodyfat%, I can squat 100# and kick their starving scrawny arses in spin, on the road cycling, paddleboarding, basically doing anything. OH, and my hair is fabulous.

Excuse me while I finish my 500-calorie breakfast.

*WINNING* :laugh:

jenlarz

Oh my, what did we do before wikipedia......

Did your sources that say it's ok to drop to whatever level of calories also tell you that going below 1000 calories a day should only be done under medical supervision because of other potential health complications ?

Perhaps the term "starvation mode" does get overused but the fundamental science behind recommending a minimum of 1200 cal a day for women and around 1500 per day for men is sound. Extreme diets fail for 90%+ of dieters using them as they do not encourage the adoption of healthy eating habits that can be sustained for a lifetime.

Before wikipedia people didn't have a site where they could list what they want as fact and people believe its actually an encyclopedia.

watboy

Someone could say what you are posting is misleading and to keep it to yourself. I happen to agree with the OP so I don't feel mislead. And yes with freedom comes responsbility so just think I disagree with your view point so can I then say you are being irresponsible because I think your point is invalid and misleading? My point in short we should all be able to post our different views and let individuals decide.

OP: So what do YOU think is a good healthy, safe, deficit?

Its no about what she thinks is right for everyone, i think she knows whats right for herself and thats what she will continue using, Not everyones body is made the same way so what she thinks is good and healthy might not be for someone else.

If that is the case then why she is telling everyone to "stop it, seriously"? Honestly we are all here to improve our lives & posts like this can mislead many people & of course you got to expect a lot of argument from lots of people. Sometimes it is better to keep things to yourself than to mislead the entire community. Just because that one works for you it doesn't mean that it can be applicable to anyone. Yes I know this is internet & there is freedom of speech BUT freedom comes with responsibility.

ladyraven68

I am eating 1100 calories with a periodic day of 1300 or so, but I am also 4'11". I can't really believe that 1100 is too low for me.

I'm also under 5ft and losing on 1600. Your height doesn't stop you working out your real TDEE and losing weight with a sensible deficit.

I'm sure some people don't think they are doing this right unless they are feeling deprived.

LadyRaven, did I read your profile right in that you started a few months ago at 189? Your weight has more to do with how much you can eat than your height. I really do believe that for someone with my combination height and weight (5'0, 119), it is ok for me to eat 1200 most days, that I am meeting my body's needs. My BMR is below 1200 calories, and even at the highest activity setting, MFP still recommends 1350. (And I am nowhere near a construction worker or whatever it was. )

Yes, I started at 189, but even then MFP gave me 1200 calories. It was too low for me.
Even if I increase MFP to the highest settings it still doesn't think I can lose weight at 1600.

It's trial and error, people need to find their own number not just rely on what MFP spits out .

Also, people need to remember that whatever MFP does spit out, does not include exercise so if you exercise, that 1200 easily becomes 1500-2000.

signgrrrl

"Starvation Mode" Is an excuse....Everyone is different do what works for you! I did the research to. It is difficult to budge you metabolism to such an extreme.

watboy

thank you Mylana I agree.

OP: So what do YOU think is a good healthy, safe, deficit?

Its no about what she thinks is right for everyone, i think she knows whats right for herself and thats what she will continue using, Not everyones body is made the same way so what she thinks is good and healthy might not be for someone else.

If that is the case then why she is telling everyone to "stop it, seriously"? Honestly we are all here to improve our lives & posts like this can mislead many people & of course you got to expect a lot of argument from lots of people. Sometimes it is better to keep things to yourself than to mislead the entire community. Just because that one works for you it doesn't mean that it can be applicable to anyone. Yes I know this is internet & there is freedom of speech BUT freedom comes with responsibility.

With all the people on here that makes posts about how you should be upping your calories why cant she put her two cents in on how its not always right for everyone ?

watboy

Opus649 that was brilliant. thank you.

Eating less than your body requires WILL reduce your METABOLIC RATE. This is NOT DISPUTED.

True, any calorie deficit will result in a slower metabolism, the majority of which is caused by a lower body weight. Less mass (lean or otherwise) burns less calories. Without a calorie deficit, though, you can't lose weight. If you want to weigh 50 pounds less, you have to accept that you won't be able to eat as much at your new weight.

Extreme calorie deficits lower it even further...

Can you cite any scientific study that demonstrates the extent of adaptive themogenesis is directly correlated to the size of calorie restriction? I have been unable to find one.

I hope everyone understands that if you lose weight, you also lower the number of calories required to maintain your new body weight. It doesn't matter how slowly you lose it. A 200 lb person simply requires more calories than a 150 lb person. What is at issue is whether or not quick weight loss results in an "extra" drop in metabolism over slow weight loss. To date, I have yet to see a single scientific study that demonstrates such a difference (not saying there isn't one, just that it's not currently "undisputed").

sleepytexan

I am eating 1100 calories with a periodic day of 1300 or so, but I am also 4'11". I can't really believe that 1100 is too low for me.

I'm also under 5ft and losing on 1600. Your height doesn't stop you working out your real TDEE and losing weight with a sensible deficit.

I'm sure some people don't think they are doing this right unless they are feeling deprived.

LadyRaven, did I read your profile right in that you started a few months ago at 189? Your weight has more to do with how much you can eat than your height. I really do believe that for someone with my combination height and weight (5'0, 119), it is ok for me to eat 1200 most days, that I am meeting my body's needs. My BMR is below 1200 calories, and even at the highest activity setting, MFP still recommends 1350. (And I am nowhere near a construction worker or whatever it was. )

Yes, I started at 189, but even then MFP gave me 1200 calories. It was too low for me.
Even if I increase MFP to the highest settings it still doesn't think I can lose weight at 1600.

It's trial and error, people need to find their own number not just rely on what MFP spits out .

Also, people need to remember that whatever MFP does spit out, does not include exercise so if you exercise, that 1200 easily becomes 1500-2000.

You can customize your daily calories: choose GOALS, CHANGE GOALS, CUSTOMIZE GOALS, then enter whatever you want as your daily calorie intake.

That's the only way I can set mine to 1850. MFP thinks 1850 is a gain for me, but in reality I am maintaining eating bt 1850 - 2271 (my TDEE) each day, even rest days.

sabinecbauer

^because **** like this happens when you eat under 1200 cals a day for a long period of time. i also havent had my period for over a year because i decided to get restrictive so.....yeah. my body pretty much was shutting down from the lack of cals.

Probably because you were below 10% body fat...but what I think OP is saying that people on this site misuse that term constantly and by no means is there a magic caloric number you need to meet everyday just a general one. If you can slow your metabolism so dramatically by always being below your BMR how come your can't speed it up by eating 4000 calories... genetics play a bigger role in your metabolic rate than your diet.

You don't have to be below 10% body fat for this to happen, and it doesn't take long for it to happen either. As a teenager I was put on a severe calorie deficit under medical supervision and on medical advice (sadly, 30+ years ago doctors still thought this was the miracle cure for childhood obesity). What I got out of it was a short-term weight loss (regained everything and more within a few months), pitifully thin hair, and chronic hypothyroidism, which makes it incredibly difficult to lose weight now.

BalenciaLynn

I don't care how any of these fools choose to eat.

I average 2000 calories a day, 44 years old, 4 kids, 5'4, 130#, athletic bodyfat%, I can squat 100# and kick their starving scrawny arses in spin, on the road cycling, paddleboarding, basically doing anything. OH, and my hair is fabulous.

Excuse me while I finish my 500-calorie breakfast.

*WINNING* :laugh:

Is there really a need to "show off" what you think people are jealous of?

"winning"? no i think more so you just need attention

Sabine_Stroehm

OP: So what do YOU think is a good healthy, safe, deficit?

Its no about what she thinks is right for everyone, i think she knows whats right for herself and thats what she will continue using, Not everyones body is made the same way so what she thinks is good and healthy might not be for someone else.

I agree. But she's telling folks what not to do and think on the topic, so I'm curious what she thinks is good for herself and others to do. Seems like a logical question.