The "Sissifying" of America...

EpiGaiaRepens

Ok. I think I finally smell what y'all are sniffing at. I know a woman (about 22) who seems to think she deserves everything regardless of her lack of effort. To me, this isn't the result of participation awards handed out at events as much as its the result of the kind of parents who say things like "that teacher doesn't know what they are talking about! You deserve an A!" and argue with the school (or use their status) to have grades changed rather than tell the kid to try to learn something. I saw this same sort of character at the university where I saw the suicides- those kids were usually the kids of wealthy well known high status parents and felt a sense of entitlement.... Which, unfortunately, they actually had as their parents donated thousands to the universities annually......not that it'll make a rats *kitten* a difference when they are looking for a job and they are as unprofessional as the woman I know....

But I caution how people talk about this because emotional abuse in the form of negligence happens and has serious consequences for our youth. If you think a nation of sissies is bad, try a nation of drop outs and addicts

dmpizza

for very little kids, I support the "everyone gets a ribbon", after 2nd grade, if they lose, they lose.

FitLink

It's crap like this that also makes school uniforms a requirement,at my sons school they flat out said its so kids who can't afford designer clothes don't feel bad. Ridiculous and stupid. So now some kids have designer kahkie pants and some don't,so it didn't solve a damn thing except suck all sense of individualty away

Since this thread is about competition, I assume you think kids "competing" over clothes proves something? That the "winners" in the "individuality" competition are somehow "better?" In sports competitions people also wear uniforms--it promotes team spirit.

Roshams

I totally agree. School's are taking "fairness" WAY too far...Life is not fair, and kids should learn that hard work and persistence is the only way.

This whole "no child left behind" thing is total BS!

Don't know what it's like in the US, but here in NS, Canada...no child, no matter how terrible they do in school gets held back a year. Every kid passes, no matter what.

Why the hell would they even try then ??

The World will end up with people too stupid to flip a burger.

AnAmericanGirl2

I use the term in your topic too, but let's just say it's not as "PC". I could go into a three page diatribe here but I'll just say that I TOTALLY agree with you. Kids are going to grow up and not know how to deal with failure. Because they're being told how "special" they are all the time they're going to grow up and be self entitled brats (a la the Occupy movement). It's so absolutely ridiculous and I feel sorry for kids and parents these days.

FitLink

So the take away from this thread is "there is only one winner" and "if you ain't winning, you're losing." That right? We should make fifth graders feel like losers no matter how hard they work unless they are the winner in a school event? BTW, the OP's daughter's team DIDN'T win--they were third. Losers?

and if I didn't do well I didn't get put down about it

That's a put down? I'm not the one who said "if you ain't winning, you're losing." I assumed you and the OP felt it was appropriate to call the people who didn't win losers. And the OP's child? Hmmmm....didn't win.

If you look back, that was a direct statement about life - not sport. Very different scenarios.

But the OP was talking about a competition, not "life." CHILDREN should be rewarded for participation and effort, not winning and losing, because it IS a very different scenario from either the competitions of adolescents and adults AND the adult world. Indeed, that is my ENTIRE point.

At what chronological age does one suddenly become an adult where now the entire paradigm of life can change and it be accepted and understood?

Like everything else age-related, it's hard to put a number on it. I see another poster who puts that number at 2nd grade. I place it in high school, possibly junior high. But absolutely there is some age, below which, one rewards for participation and effort, not raw score. Key to this is how "voluntary" the competition is. If everyone must participate, as in school events or phys ed class, effort counts for more than score. Even in junior high, if kids participate in extracurricular sports and activities, these appropriately have winners and losers.

Carl01

Like everything else age-related, it's hard to put a number on it. I see another poster who puts that number at 2nd grade. I place it in high school, possibly junior high. But absolutely there is some age, below which, one rewards for participation and effort, not raw score. Key to this is how "voluntary" the competition is. If everyone must participate, as in school events or phys ed class, effort counts for more than score. Even in junior high, if kids participate in extracurricular sports and activities, these appropriately have winners and losers.

You just proved my point...there is no one age fits all so assuming your theory was correct it is impossible to actually apply.
Secondly there are competitions that occur all through school in phys ed and otherwise where there is no choice of participation.
What you advocate sounds great in a coffee room discussion but creates havoc when introduced into the real world.

Maturity comes to people as they grow and experience life,it is not something that needs to be nor successfully can be scripted or managed.
Part of lifes experience is failure and disappointment as well as success and happiness.
If you do all you can to remove those things from the maturing process you have a person in their teens or even older that have not advanced beyond the tantrum stage of childhood.
Give kids credit for the ability to grow up without their hands held into adulthood,they will be just fine for the most part and capable of leading productive lives.

ironanimal

So the take away from this thread is "there is only one winner" and "if you ain't winning, you're losing." That right? We should make fifth graders feel like losers no matter how hard they work unless they are the winner in a school event? BTW, the OP's daughter's team DIDN'T win--they were third. Losers?

and if I didn't do well I didn't get put down about it

That's a put down? I'm not the one who said "if you ain't winning, you're losing." I assumed you and the OP felt it was appropriate to call the people who didn't win losers. And the OP's child? Hmmmm....didn't win.

If you look back, that was a direct statement about life - not sport. Very different scenarios.

But the OP was talking about a competition, not "life." CHILDREN should be rewarded for participation and effort, not winning and losing, because it IS a very different scenario from either the competitions of adolescents and adults AND the adult world. Indeed, that is my ENTIRE point.

And my point was that children need to be prepared for life by experiencing failure as well as success.

FitLink

So the take away from this thread is "there is only one winner" and "if you ain't winning, you're losing." That right? We should make fifth graders feel like losers no matter how hard they work unless they are the winner in a school event? BTW, the OP's daughter's team DIDN'T win--they were third. Losers?

and if I didn't do well I didn't get put down about it

That's a put down? I'm not the one who said "if you ain't winning, you're losing." I assumed you and the OP felt it was appropriate to call the people who didn't win losers. And the OP's child? Hmmmm....didn't win.

If you look back, that was a direct statement about life - not sport. Very different scenarios.

But the OP was talking about a competition, not "life." CHILDREN should be rewarded for participation and effort, not winning and losing, because it IS a very different scenario from either the competitions of adolescents and adults AND the adult world. Indeed, that is my ENTIRE point.

And my point was that children need to be prepared for life by experiencing failure as well as success.

But this is about a school event at which there were "no losers." Clearly kids experienced failure and kids experienced success. Kids were rewarded for participation rather than having a larger number of successes than another child.

Perhaps we should teach kids about failure by having 8 year olds compete with university students in advanced mathematics. Many if not most of the 8 year olds will lose this competition, so it seems perfect for teaching them about failure. That it's not fair is irrelevant too, since "life isn't fair." Kids abilities are very individual, and you can't just assume equal ability at equal age. Especially in elementary school, the winner isn't necessarily, or even likely, the kid who worked hardest. Why should the kid nature gifted with more natural ability get more reward than the the one who worked hardest, and more importantly, since "if you ain't winning, you're losing," why should that hard worker be called the loser?

ironanimal

But this is about a school event at which there were "no losers." Clearly kids experienced failure and kids experienced success. Kids were rewarded for participation rather than having a larger number of successes than another child.

No, this is about the sissification of America (and to a lesser extent, the Western world in general) and the OP's example was a contextual anecdote.

StarvingDiva

So, I attended a function my daughter had called the "Reading Olympics", last night. There were 2,000 5th graders from schools all over my area of the state. Basic premise is teams of 5th graders get asked questions about 50 books that they have read between them, meaning each kid should read about 7 books, but you can read more. You can also read less per kid; it's all up to the kids. My daughter read about 15 of the 50 books.

So, my daughter's team faced 3 other teams, one team at a time, and her team beat all 3 teams they faced... I am VERY HAPPY about that. A perfect score would be 120 points, but that would mean that your opponents answered every question wrong and your team then "stole" all their points by answering all the missed question by the other teams correctly.

Realistically, 70 points is FABULOUS..... The highest score achieved tonight was 67 points... my daughter's team scored 61, and had the 3rd most points overall.

So when it was over, my kids were told that their school won a "Blue Ribbon".... Which sounds cool, until you realize that teams that only score 45 also got a blue ribbon, as did the teams who scored above my daughter's team... From what I was told, EVERY team "won" a blue ribbon. I know I heard a lot of kids talking in the hallways about their team winning a blue ribbon.

Then over the PA system, the principal says "We have 2000 winners tonight, not a single loser in the bunch.".

This, IMO, is why the USA is backsliding. We reward losing with blue ribbons. Mediocrity is every bit as good as being awesome.... God forbid a kid doesn't learn how to lose. Kids today are not like kids from my era. We had winners. We had losers. We kept score! Can you imagine that? We kept score in athletics. The "mercy rule" in my baseball league was 12 runs in an inning, or 20 in a game. Besides the leagues that don't keep score, because "there are no losers here", ( That makes me want to shoot myself..... ) we have a league that does keep score, but the mercy rule is 4 runs...... Somebody else told me that when his kid's team started beating another team by too much, they turn the scoreboard around so the losing kids don't feel bad.

All you parents who won't let your kids learn the value of losing are only hurting your kids. America is becoming a country of sissies. We are hurting our kid's development all in the name of political correctness, and the desire that no kid should ever feel sad..... What a bunch of nonsense.

If you're a fat kid, and you're the last one picked... well, do something about it. If you are on a team that stinks, well, work to get better and learn from your failures. Nobody wins ALL THE TIME. But every time somebody tells a kid that "there are no losers here", well, you may have just turned a bunch of kids into potential losers IN LIFE.

Sorry for my rant, but I hate this "sissifying" of our country. Let your kids learn that there are winners and losers... PLEASE.

Totally agree with this and those kids are now coming into the workforce and they do not know how to handle authority or someone telling them they are wrong. It's astonishing...I had a salesguy (who is in his 20's) go to HR because he didn't feel the boss sent out "praise" emails enough about him. Apparently her monthly WOOHOO so and so was the best salesperson this month and giving stats wasn't enough for him. The big boss said "What the F does he want a gold star?"

Rhea30

i disagree.

and my kid is awesome.

the only way you become a winner is to not let the failures beat you down and keep trying. What is the saying? Edison didn't fail 500 times, he found 500 ways to not make a lightbulb work.

And had he been sufficiently rewarded for those 500 failures, he might never have found the need to go on to find the one success.

BS. What you guys are talking about is about giving kids posivibes even when they don't win like it's some crime against humanity. My son always gets told he did good even when he fails because i'm not gonna emotionally abuse him for not being the best at everything. Trying, and continuing to try, is what matters.

Trying doesn't always matter, learning how to get things right matters more. If you don't allow your kid to fail he'll never learn and learn how to get things right. I don't want a doctor who just tries, I want one who gets it right.

mrschappet

i disagree.

and my kid is awesome.

the only way you become a winner is to not let the failures beat you down and keep trying. What is the saying? Edison didn't fail 500 times, he found 500 ways to not make a lightbulb work.

Ok,well if your child doesn't know they are failing or losing how can they ever get better so that they can actually succeed!?

Carl01

So the take away from this thread is "there is only one winner" and "if you ain't winning, you're losing." That right? We should make fifth graders feel like losers no matter how hard they work unless they are the winner in a school event? BTW, the OP's daughter's team DIDN'T win--they were third. Losers?

and if I didn't do well I didn't get put down about it

That's a put down? I'm not the one who said "if you ain't winning, you're losing." I assumed you and the OP felt it was appropriate to call the people who didn't win losers. And the OP's child? Hmmmm....didn't win.

If you look back, that was a direct statement about life - not sport. Very different scenarios.

But the OP was talking about a competition, not "life." CHILDREN should be rewarded for participation and effort, not winning and losing, because it IS a very different scenario from either the competitions of adolescents and adults AND the adult world. Indeed, that is my ENTIRE point.

And my point was that children need to be prepared for life by experiencing failure as well as success.

But this is about a school event at which there were "no losers." Clearly kids experienced failure and kids experienced success. Kids were rewarded for participation rather than having a larger number of successes than another child.

Perhaps we should teach kids about failure by having 8 year olds compete with university students in advanced mathematics. Many if not most of the 8 year olds will lose this competition, so it seems perfect for teaching them about failure. That it's not fair is irrelevant too, since "life isn't fair." Kids abilities are very individual, and you can't just assume equal ability at equal age. Especially in elementary school, the winner isn't necessarily, or even likely, the kid who worked hardest. Why should the kid nature gifted with more natural ability get more reward than the the one who worked hardest, and more importantly, since "if you ain't winning, you're losing," why should that hard worker be called the loser?

When I was in grade school 40 plus years ago of course it was true even then that in lower grades there was not a great emphasis put on the actual winning.
It was for fun but you still had a reason to try to run all the way around the bases.
To remove the ultimate goal completely is inevitably going to stunt someones emotional growth more then having to deal with a loss and then back to the classroom.
I fail to see how it would do any good to tell a child for years that there is no real point to playing a game and then out of nowhere at age X say..."Actually you should be trying to win".
What would have been a normal 8-13 year old (to pick an age) is now a confused and likely angry one.

bunnylvr

Adults now a days are too concerned with the kids self-esteem/feelings. This is why they do things like this. I don't agree with it. Why should a kid try his best when he is just going to rewarded regardless? By the way, this is the type of the thing that leads to inflated self-esteem.

Cold_Steel

My generation started the participation trophies... I remember the first few years of baseball as a kid (20 years ago) they didnt hand them out and then by my second / third year every one got a participation trophy but then they still gave out 1st place team trophies and individual awards.

This would not be an issue if it was just the very young, but this is being used up until high school, in some cases high school. Kids are being graduated from high school after failing the exit exam 3 times and still managing to get out because almost all California schools have a "work to pass" system.

It is funny to me because I remember speaking with a Korean friend of mine in school and she was telling me that in Northern Korea (where her family was from) they use the same philosophy to indoctrinate children at a young age. No one loses, your team is as only as good as the team you are competing against in order to solidify the idealism of communism and that they make no attempts to hide it. I am not saying we are going to fly the red flag here but geeze, it sure doesnt help.

In Capitalism there is always a winner and a loser, it depends on how much effort you put into it. In communism there is always nothing, no one really wins and no one really loses it is a team effort (unless of course you are talking about national pride and then you are DISTINCTLY different than your competitor).

I think there is a huge value in learning how to win and learning how to lose. Losing is not a bad thing, but in order to appreciate the value of winning you must have to suffer the agony of defeat. Besides, when you teach your kids you are good simply because you participated it gives them a false sense of direction that they should simply not go down that path with.

Hey TOMMY here is a prize for striking out on every pitch, YOU ARE GOING TO BE A STAR ! Seems a bit backwards to me.

Losing builds character, losing is uncomfortable and awkward no one wants to lose. Instead nowadays every one thinks they are a winner and simply not challenged, until they put their foot in the real world and it gets ran over by a truck !

FitLink

i disagree.

and my kid is awesome.

the only way you become a winner is to not let the failures beat you down and keep trying. What is the saying? Edison didn't fail 500 times, he found 500 ways to not make a lightbulb work.

And had he been sufficiently rewarded for those 500 failures, he might never have found the need to go on to find the one success.

BS. What you guys are talking about is about giving kids posivibes even when they don't win like it's some crime against humanity. My son always gets told he did good even when he fails because i'm not gonna emotionally abuse him for not being the best at everything. Trying, and continuing to try, is what matters.

Trying doesn't always matter, learning how to get things right matters more. If you don't allow your kid to fail he'll never learn and learn how to get things right. I don't want a doctor who just tries, I want one who gets it right.

Nonsense. Edison kept making because he was a maker, a hacker, a tinkerer. Makers make because we HAVE to make; we hack because we HAVE to hack; we tinker because we HAVE to tinker. I want a doctor who gets it right too, but doctors are adults, not kids. Break a kid down and what you get won't be a doctor who gets it right.

Cold_Steel

It is kind of funny I have seen ads in local papers for "NPT Baseball / Football or Non Participant Trophy Leagues meaning they dont hand out trophies for existing.

Maybe the trend is showing a slight turn.

Rhea30

I had some teachers who passed students easily when I was growing up (I'm 30) and one of the weakest areas for me was spelling. It was rarely corrected and overtime I just felt and was told it was just my weakness so wasn't a big deal. That was true that it is a weakness of mine but I am grateful for some college professors I've had where basically you learn to spell correctly or what you've done is going to get marked wrong (not just with English courses) and just knowing I would fail miserably if I didn't start working on spelling forced me to work on it and it was very hard for me but I am grateful for it everyday since I know I can tackle an obstacle if its hard, especially one which I just thought was just some inherent trait. Before I would 'try' and it was good enough since I 'tried' but it never truly taught me or helped me get past the threshold I needed and also undermined what I really could do. Honestly, if you are rewarding a kid just for 'trying', you're letting him/her know that he/she can't do any better if he/she didn't do so well.

Carl01

i disagree.

and my kid is awesome.

the only way you become a winner is to not let the failures beat you down and keep trying. What is the saying? Edison didn't fail 500 times, he found 500 ways to not make a lightbulb work.

And had he been sufficiently rewarded for those 500 failures, he might never have found the need to go on to find the one success.

BS. What you guys are talking about is about giving kids posivibes even when they don't win like it's some crime against humanity. My son always gets told he did good even when he fails because i'm not gonna emotionally abuse him for not being the best at everything. Trying, and continuing to try, is what matters.

Trying doesn't always matter, learning how to get things right matters more. If you don't allow your kid to fail he'll never learn and learn how to get things right. I don't want a doctor who just tries, I want one who gets it right.

Nonsense. Edison kept making because he was a maker, a hacker, a tinkerer. Makers make because we HAVE to make; we hack because we HAVE to hack; we tinker because we HAVE to tinker. I want a doctor who gets it right too, but doctors are adults, not kids. Break a kid down and what you get won't be a doctor who gets it right.

Explain then the advances in science and medicine throughout the 20th century.
I notice you also refuse to respond to other posts I have made that show the folly of your presumptions.
Can you?