Weight loss : strategies to optimize it

mmapags

According to Lyle McDonald, carbs before workout provide fuel to the muscles during workout acutally increases lipolysis compared to fasting workouts. Most recommed some carbs after but there is a school of thought that is espoused on Mercola's site that more that 10 or 15 grams of carbs in the 2 hour window after workout inhibits production of HGH. Refeeding the muscles with glycogen at some point is important for repair and restore. I don't have a clear picture of how this affects lipolysis. Ideas?

MaraDiaz

And also what does mixing weight training with cardio do?

mmapags

And also what does mixing weight training with cardio do?

Are you talking same day or on differing days?

PercivalHackworth

According to Lyle McDonald, carbs before workout provide fuel to the muscles during workout acutally increases lipolysis compared to fasting workouts. Most recommed some carbs after but there is a school of thought that is espoused on Mercola's site that more that 10 or 15 grams of carbs in the 2 hour window after workout inhibits production of HGH. Refeeding the muscles with glycogen at some point is important for repair and restore. I don't have a clear picture of how this affects lipolysis. Ideas?

# Pre workout
If you levels of glycogen are low, you would quickly use the fat channel, muscle contractions is more efficient with glucose over fat. (Less oxygen is required to burn glucose over fat.
Glucose :
6 carbone atoms, 12 hydrogen atoms and 6 oxygen atoms (in other words, glucose is partially oxidized)
Fatty acid:
Mainly carbon and hydrogen)

# During a workout
We know intensive workouts higher the GH levels, the GH enhances the fat usage, a fasted workout will likely allows the GH to higher, while insulin would lower it.

A combo killer is catecholamines and GH :
Circulating catecholamines with a low insulin concentration enhances lipolysis. GH enhances the actions of epinephrine and norepinephrine ; though a study showed the GH was superior when it comes to fat mobilisation over Catecholamines

# Post-workout
Researchers suspect the reason GH levels remain high after an intensive training is that glycogen needs to be replenished. During that window, as we saw, high levels of GH increase fat mobilisation. Why ? Simply for sparing the glucose that would be incorporated into glycogen ;-)

Eating carbs (less but still applies for the two others nutrients) higher insulin, replenish the stores, but it also lowers the GH levels :-)
Insulin promotes lipogenesis but prevents lipolysis finally, while GH promotes fat loss, and prevents fat storage

We now have a better vision on how several mechanisms can work in an opposite way.
Time now to see how the nutrients respond to that state
- What happens to the fat mobilisation when you simply gain back your energy after a training by eating ?
- When the fat mobilisation re-starts ?

PercivalHackworth

Since it's my post is about optimisation, and explanations, I'd like to talk about the stubborn fat. I'm myself focusing on it since a couple of weeks. The stubborn fat is that fat the simple diet is unable to go through, neither the 400 abs exercices, nor the huge contractions until you are out of breath.

When catecholamines (epinephrine and norepinephrine) reach the fat cells, they try to bind to its receptors. Depending on what kind of receptors we are dealing with, the bind will allows the FFAs (Free Fatty Acids) to circulate into the bloodstream : we empty the fat cell (adipocyte).
In order to make that happen, the good receptors on the fat cells are required. Lyle McDonald uses himself the analogy of a key (catecholamines) and its locker (receptor)

To make it simple, the fat cell has two antagonists receptors : the alpha-2-adrenergic, and the beta-2-adrenergic. The alpha-2 receptor blocks the bind of the catecholamines, the beta-2 make the bind possible.

When a fat cell possesses more beta-2 receptors than alpha-2 ones, catecholamines can act, that is what happens when you lose your fat ;-) (most of the fat cells contain more beta-2 receptors than alpha-2 ones)

But why some fat refuses to leave ? :sad: A study of their composition showed that these famous fat cells have their alpha-2 and beta-2 receptors inverted ! Even if our catecholamines are here, alpha-2-adrenergic block the bind (Keys with the bad locker). No matter how much you cut on your intakes, the bind is not possible - making the removal of that fat not feasible via a simple deficit Most people lower even more their intakes, turn crazy, and experience what we saw previously.

Before giving the solution, how could we make the bind possible ?

Pihjin

This there a way to change the composition of the fat cells? By swelling them or something?

mmapags

So then it is good to delay carbs for glycogen replenishment for a couple of hours? If that increases production of HG hormone and increases lipolysis, why not. You can increase carbs after that window and replenish glycogen, no?

soccermum75

Bump

PercivalHackworth

So then it is good to delay carbs for glycogen replenishment for a couple of hours? If that increases production of HG hormone and increases lipolysis, why not. You can increase carbs after that window and replenish glycogen, no?

Yes... and no :-)
Right after the training, while you have your GH levels high, the glycogen storage rate is at it's best, combined with amino-acids, you enhance the protein synthesis.
I myself think it's pointless to focus on fat loss after a training, the priority would be : recovery, protein synthesis, and glycogen replenishment

This there a way to change the composition of the fat cells? By swelling them or something?

Unfortunately, we cannot change their composition. What kind of drug slows down the heart beat, reduces the force of the heart muscle's contractions, and decreases blood vessel contraction in the heart, brain, and the rest of the body ? These kind have an interesting property that could be used for your receptors (not the same, but the principle remain identical)

Pihjin

A sedative of some kind? Or sleeping tablet?

PercivalHackworth

Beta-blockers

.... just time now to find an alpha 2-adrenoceptor antagonist a blocker that would shut down the alpha-2 receptors)
Which are :

- Atipamezole
- Cirazoline
- Efaroxan
- Idazoxan
- Mianserin
- Mirtazapine
- Napitane
- Phenoxybenzamine
- Phentolamine
- Rauwolscine
- Setiptiline
- Tolazoline
- Yohimbine

That one is by far the most used. It's main property is not the shutting down it is able to perform on our alpha2 receptors, but.. it it indicated for erectile disorders
So Yohimbine is our answer here for dealing with those nasty cells. The only thing to know about that is that it's action is inhibited by the insulin. Making it only efficient when the insulin is low

wackyfunster

Good thread.

Relevant diet strategies based around these concepts: LeanGains, Eat-Stop-Eat.

Re: Alpha-2 antagonists, I highly recommend alpha-yohimbine/rauwolscine vs. regular yohimbine for most people. The psychological side effects of yohimbine are very pronounced at effective doses (for me it feels like having a panic attack). Alpha-yohimbine/rauwolscine is much easier to tolerate. I am also not sure if these are necessary for most people. I didn't notice any difference taking these until hitting single-digit body fat.

Hope this is helpful.

mmapags

Good thread.

Relevant diet strategies based around these concepts: LeanGains, Eat-Stop-Eat.

Re: Alpha-2 antagonists, I highly recommend alpha-yohimbine/rauwolscine vs. regular yohimbine for most people. The psychological side effects of yohimbine are very pronounced at effective doses (for me it feels like having a panic attack). Alpha-yohimbine/rauwolscine is much easier to tolerate. I am also not sure if these are necessary for most people. I didn't notice any difference taking these until hitting single-digit body fat.

Hope this is helpful.

If I'm understanding you, you are saying the side effect is much less with alpha-yohimbe? Also, can you share a little more about why you feel they may not be nessesary until you hit single digit body fat. I am currently at about 22% body fat and coming down slowly while eating at a deficit, strength training and a cardio session or 2 per week. Total burn in week varies from 1500 to 3500 calories. Would alpha-yohimbe be helpful for me with lipolysis or probably not in your opinion? Thanks in advance for the input.

Specialkayrina

bump

PercivalHackworth

Good thread.

Relevant diet strategies based around these concepts: LeanGains, Eat-Stop-Eat.

Re: Alpha-2 antagonists, I highly recommend alpha-yohimbine/rauwolscine vs. regular yohimbine for most people. The psychological side effects of yohimbine are very pronounced at effective doses (for me it feels like having a panic attack). Alpha-yohimbine/rauwolscine is much easier to tolerate. I am also not sure if these are necessary for most people. I didn't notice any difference taking these until hitting single-digit body fat.

Hope this is helpful.

If I'm understanding you, you are saying the side effect is much less with alpha-yohimbe? Also, can you share a little more about why you feel they may not be nessesary until you hit single digit body fat. I am currently at about 22% body fat and coming down slowly while eating at a deficit, strength training and a cardio session or 2 per week. Total burn in week varies from 1500 to 3500 calories. Would alpha-yohimbe be helpful for me with lipolysis or probably not in your opinion? Thanks in advance for the input.

Yes there will be less side-effects with the synthetic form :-)
The reason why it gets interesting for single digits is for several reasons :
- Only at this level, you can figure whether or not you carry some stubborn fat, the products only block alpha2 receptors, for the body fat you would carry all around the body, a simple deficit can do it

For burning more fat, we have several options :
- Making the fasted window longer
- Enhance blod flow, which would likely speed up the FFA's circulation and irrigate more zones (specifically the less irrigated ones)
- Enhance the resting thermogenesis : Green tea, Coffee, Pepper, etc...
- Higher the levels of hormons we previously explained, by :
# Putting more intensity
# Putting more resistance

I'd like to have your feedback around the nutrients cycling, before working on our protocol :

Does a glyco replenishment during a resting day and a training one will have the same effect ?
What are the consequences on our muscles when a deficit occurs the day next a training ?

wackyfunster

Good thread.

Relevant diet strategies based around these concepts: LeanGains, Eat-Stop-Eat.

Re: Alpha-2 antagonists, I highly recommend alpha-yohimbine/rauwolscine vs. regular yohimbine for most people. The psychological side effects of yohimbine are very pronounced at effective doses (for me it feels like having a panic attack). Alpha-yohimbine/rauwolscine is much easier to tolerate. I am also not sure if these are necessary for most people. I didn't notice any difference taking these until hitting single-digit body fat.

Hope this is helpful.

If I'm understanding you, you are saying the side effect is much less with alpha-yohimbe? Also, can you share a little more about why you feel they may not be nessesary until you hit single digit body fat. I am currently at about 22% body fat and coming down slowly while eating at a deficit, strength training and a cardio session or 2 per week. Total burn in week varies from 1500 to 3500 calories. Would alpha-yohimbe be helpful for me with lipolysis or probably not in your opinion? Thanks in advance for the input.

Yeah, alpha-yomimbine provides the same fat-burning benefits, but with drastically reduced psychogenic effects (I can take 20mg of alpha-yombine and just feel a little twitchy, while 10mg of yombine makes me feel like I am having a panic attack).

Basically, I tried yohimbine when I was around 12% body fat, and didn't see a significant change in fat loss. With fasting and a proper diet, you can drop something like 0.5-1% body fat a week at that point. Once you get down to 8% or so the rate of loss slows down to practically nothing (it may be easy for younger people, but being over 30 probably doesn't help :P). I am taking ~30g of alpha-yombine a day (20 in the morning+10 in the afternoon) on my 20+ hour fast rest days (2/week), and have seen a noticeable change in rate of fat loss now.

wackyfunster

Does a glyco replenishment during a resting day and a training one will have the same effect ?
What are the consequences on our muscles when a deficit occurs the day next a training ?

Re: #1, I try not to carry a caloric surplus on rest days, but that may just be broscience. Assuming you worked to failure, you need to replenish something like 200-400g of glycogen (~100g of liver glycogen, and ~1-2% of lean mass of muscles worked to exhaustion... correct me if I'm wrong there), so the caloric requirement in terms of carb intake is going to be significant. I suppose waiting longer after workout to replenish could provide for more lypolysis?
Re #2: I have been doing LeanGains for a few months now, and have been able to preserve strength even with a substantial deficit on rest days (I've even managed to get some marginal gains on some movements). My lifts are all high enough that maintaining lifts is not likely due to functional improvements (~135lb. BW, 8x230 deadlift, 8x170 squat, 8x140 bench, 8x90 strict press... not competitive, but not bad either, IMO. Squat would be higher, but my right knee is gimpy.) I suspect that someone with more body fat would be able to still see noticeable strength gains. I have only done one month of bulking on this protocol, but saw linear gains in line with previous bulks, but without the fat gain.

All anecdotal, but hopefully helpful.

mmapags

Wacky and Raz,
Thanks for the clarifications!

sugarbone

Interesting thread! I have used Yohimbine with great success, particularly for losing fat in stubborn places due to its alpha-2 antagonizing abilities. A2 receptors in abundance can make fat harder to oxidize in that area - while most parts of the body have 1:1 ratio of A2 and B2, a woman's thighs will have as high as 9:1! hahaha.

PercivalHackworth

Yes exactly
These areas have are in fact two issues for us :
- The first one is the inverted ratios of receptors
- The poor blod flow circulation, making the FFA's re-esterification easier

That brings us to the next question :-)
- How to avoid re-esterification of FFAs's ?

@wackyfunster : I'll reply later to both points