Forgive my student loan!

odusgolp

I joined the Army to pay for my college education. Pay for it yourself or go without. Where did this overwhelming sense of entitlement come from?

Amen.

doorki

My entire college education, four years of it, cost around $10K. And I have a very good job. Maybe people should consider their budgets when choosing a university to attend.

Just sayin'.

Another nail hit on the head. Too many people are borrowing too much money to get an education in a field that doesn't make much money, and then they complain about the cost of education.

I'll take my wife for an example, so I don't offend anyone else. She went to an expensive private school to get an education degree. She knew the exact job she wanted, and the exact school she wanted to teach at. Luckily for her, she got the job. Unfortunately for her, her salary was half of what one year at college cost her.

There are too many people making similarly poor fiscal decisions for me to give any real sympathy to the student loan forgiveness idea.

Even state schools are all hitting the $10K/year just for tuition alone. It was $4K/year for my school a decade ago and now its $10K/year. There is no avoiding it. You either get a 4-year degree and take on massive student loan debt, or you take a job with low wages. Or if you're the 1% you start a business but that's not going to work for most.

What state schools are $10K a year for in state tuition? I have a child graduating high school this year and tuition for in state here are nowhere near that.

Penn State, University of Illinois, University of Vermont, University of New Hampshire are all over $13k.

odusgolp

So how does a young person who is lucky to make $40K/year out of college (if they are lucky enough to find a job) supposed to pay down on their $50K student loan debt, pay their $1200/month apartment rent, while making payments on their $20K honda civic, while saving up for their $40K down payment, so they can buy their $200K townhouse before they turn 30, because heaven forbids one day they might want to actually start a family. See its almost impossible to start from scratch these days. Most of the young people cannot get out of debt without their parents' help.

Perhaps they should move to a more affordable location and buy a used car.

Maybe your debt should come before your aspirations of buying a $200K home before you're 30.

I guess you and the others are missing the point. If 20-somethings cannot afford to buy houses and start families because they can't avoid massive debt, then our economy is doomed. I'll leave it at that.

Good. As I can only assume your degree was not in economics or finance by that statement.

rml_16

I guess you and the others are missing the point. If 20-somethings cannot afford to buy houses and start families because they can't avoid massive debt, then our economy is doomed. I'll leave it at that.

I didn't realize renting was such good birth control ...

And, like I said, my parents THIRTY YEARS AGO didn't buy a house until they were in their 30s.

zmanincredible

Maybe is we all spent less money on food, we could afford our student loans...
Get it???
Cause this is my fitness pal's message board, not a political forum....

grinch031

My entire college education, four years of it, cost around $10K. And I have a very good job. Maybe people should consider their budgets when choosing a university to attend.

Just sayin'.

Another nail hit on the head. Too many people are borrowing too much money to get an education in a field that doesn't make much money, and then they complain about the cost of education.

I'll take my wife for an example, so I don't offend anyone else. She went to an expensive private school to get an education degree. She knew the exact job she wanted, and the exact school she wanted to teach at. Luckily for her, she got the job. Unfortunately for her, her salary was half of what one year at college cost her.

There are too many people making similarly poor fiscal decisions for me to give any real sympathy to the student loan forgiveness idea.

Even state schools are all hitting the $10K/year just for tuition alone. It was $4K/year for my school a decade ago and now its $10K/year. There is no avoiding it. You either get a 4-year degree and take on massive student loan debt, or you take a job with low wages. Or if you're the 1% you start a business but that's not going to work for most.

What state schools are $10K a year for in state tuition? I have a child graduating high school this year and tuition for in state here are nowhere near that.

I live in MD so I'll mention a couple here:

U of MD is $8.6K per year
UMBC is $9.5K per year

That excludes room and board which would likely double that cost. These are the schools you want to go to if say you're getting an engineering degree, one of the more lucrative degrees. Well what if you live 2 hours away, you commute to school to save money? No you live there and pay a fortune.

rml_16

My entire college education, four years of it, cost around $10K. And I have a very good job. Maybe people should consider their budgets when choosing a university to attend.

Just sayin'.

Another nail hit on the head. Too many people are borrowing too much money to get an education in a field that doesn't make much money, and then they complain about the cost of education.

I'll take my wife for an example, so I don't offend anyone else. She went to an expensive private school to get an education degree. She knew the exact job she wanted, and the exact school she wanted to teach at. Luckily for her, she got the job. Unfortunately for her, her salary was half of what one year at college cost her.

There are too many people making similarly poor fiscal decisions for me to give any real sympathy to the student loan forgiveness idea.

Even state schools are all hitting the $10K/year just for tuition alone. It was $4K/year for my school a decade ago and now its $10K/year. There is no avoiding it. You either get a 4-year degree and take on massive student loan debt, or you take a job with low wages. Or if you're the 1% you start a business but that's not going to work for most.

What state schools are $10K a year for in state tuition? I have a child graduating high school this year and tuition for in state here are nowhere near that.

Penn State, University of Illinois, University of Vermont, University of New Hampshire are all over $13k.

Then choose community college for two years and a different state school.

Easy peasy!

angryguy77

My entire college education, four years of it, cost around $10K. And I have a very good job. Maybe people should consider their budgets when choosing a university to attend.

Just sayin'.

Another nail hit on the head. Too many people are borrowing too much money to get an education in a field that doesn't make much money, and then they complain about the cost of education.

I'll take my wife for an example, so I don't offend anyone else. She went to an expensive private school to get an education degree. She knew the exact job she wanted, and the exact school she wanted to teach at. Luckily for her, she got the job. Unfortunately for her, her salary was half of what one year at college cost her.

There are too many people making similarly poor fiscal decisions for me to give any real sympathy to the student loan forgiveness idea.

Even state schools are all hitting the $10K/year just for tuition alone. It was $4K/year for my school a decade ago and now its $10K/year. There is no avoiding it. You either get a 4-year degree and take on massive student loan debt, or you take a job with low wages. Or if you're the 1% you start a business but that's not going to work for most.

You do realize that one of the reasons college is so expensive is due to the gov don't you? See, the colleges know that they can charge whatever they want because so many people can get loans. They know that if they raise tuition, the gov will be forced to raise loan amounts. It one of the same reason healthcare is so expensive, but that's another topic for another time.

And what do you think will happen to tuition in the future if all student loan debt was erased?

Now I'm not saying I don't want people to have the opportunity to go to college. But college isn't for everyone, and people should choose a school that they can afford. You know there is such a thing as night classes and part-time programs that will allow people to get an education while working full-time.
And before you say "that's not fair", life isn't fair and sometimes we can't always get what we want-including a college education.

Eaglesfanintn

I think there are too many people just making blanket statements.
The cost of higher education has far out-paced the rate of inflation in this country. Students are getting out of college with massive amounts of debt. Now, I don't necessarily think that the loans should be forgiven, but something needs to be done. Maybe we could give students the same loan terms we gave the big banks - that would be 0%.
To make matters worse - employers are looking for people with higher educations in order to do jobs that didn't require that in the past. I know someone who was a great admin assistant, but couldn't move to another company to do the same job because she didn't have a 4-year degree.
Also, as zman said, wages and salaries have not kept up with the same inflation. People are making less now in relation to the cost of living than they were 30 or 40 years ago.
There's no simple solution and people that make it seem so black and white are not looking at the entire picture.

Tiggerrick

The sense of entitlement comes fromt the fact that we FORGAVE billions in mortgages.
I want my CAR loan forgiven, after I get a Bentley of course.

delilah47

I joined the Army to pay for my college education. Pay for it yourself or go without. Where did this overwhelming sense of entitlement come from?

This^^

I paid mine off and sacrificed while doing so. Baby boomers started it... the "I want my children to have more than what I had". Then the children are like.. "My parents gave me a lot, but my children should have more". Hence, entitlement. You don't have to work for anything. If you can manage to stay in school, you deserve to keep everything you earn. Unfortunately the ones that don't go to school still expect to have a high paying job and all the material things money can buy. This reminds me of the "participation trophy" thread a few weeks back.

jnh17

Okay Grinch, I do budgets for a living so I'll break it down for you. IF my child is a regular student -- no academic scholarships -- instead of going straight to a 4 year university (I mean, why would he/she?), he would start out at a jr college (these are the costs to go to UT and a texas ju Co):

1st yr - 1,800/year while working making (take home) 16,000/year. Save 10,000 of it.
2nd yr - 1,800/year while working making (take home) 16,000/year. Save 10,000 of it.
3rd yr - 20,000/yr while working making (take home) 16,000/year. Spend 10,000 of earnings and pull 10,000 from savings.
4th yr - 20,000/yr while working making (take home) 16,000/year. Spend 10,000 of earnings and pull 10,000 from savings.

Zero debt AND was able to piss off 6k a year with essentially no bills (that 20,000 could be living in the dorms if it's a must).

Wanted to edit to say the first 2 years remain living at home. The next two years room/board is included.

Eaglesfanintn

My entire college education, four years of it, cost around $10K. And I have a very good job. Maybe people should consider their budgets when choosing a university to attend.

Just sayin'.

Another nail hit on the head. Too many people are borrowing too much money to get an education in a field that doesn't make much money, and then they complain about the cost of education.

I'll take my wife for an example, so I don't offend anyone else. She went to an expensive private school to get an education degree. She knew the exact job she wanted, and the exact school she wanted to teach at. Luckily for her, she got the job. Unfortunately for her, her salary was half of what one year at college cost her.

There are too many people making similarly poor fiscal decisions for me to give any real sympathy to the student loan forgiveness idea.

Even state schools are all hitting the $10K/year just for tuition alone. It was $4K/year for my school a decade ago and now its $10K/year. There is no avoiding it. You either get a 4-year degree and take on massive student loan debt, or you take a job with low wages. Or if you're the 1% you start a business but that's not going to work for most.

You do realize that one of the reasons college is so expensive is due to the gov don't you? See, the colleges know that they can charge whatever they want because so many people can get loans. They know that if they raise tuition, the gov will be forced to raise loan amounts. It one of the same reason healthcare is so expensive, but that's another topic for another time.

And what do you think will happen to tuition in the future if all student loan debt was erased?

Now I'm not saying I don't want people to have the opportunity to go to college. But college isn't for everyone, and people should choose a school that they can afford. You know there is such a thing as night classes and part-time programs that will allow people to get an education while working full-time.
And before you say "that's not fair", life isn't fair and sometimes we can't always get what we want-including a college education.

Actually, that's not true on any level. Government loans have a limit - just ask the for profit colleges. They get the most out of it. Student loans from the government are not going to pay your way to many of the private colleges and universities.
It's also not true about healthcare. The government sets the reimbursement levels and other insurance carriers use that. Doctors can charge whatever they want, but that doesn't mean that's what they'll get reimbursed. Much gets written off. I can show you the numbers for the medical group I work for it you'd like.

zmanincredible

I don't think anyone agrees that student loan debt should be forgiven, it should just be made easier to repay.
Someone making a $25,000 salary can not pay $1200 a month back to Sallie Mae. That's practically their entire salary after taxes.
But I bet this person would prefer an opportunity to make $45k somewhere else, but those jobs are limited right now.

CountryDevil

I joined the Army to pay for my college education. Pay for it yourself or go without. Where did this overwhelming sense of entitlement come from?

^^THIS

Although my parents could of help pay for my collage education, they didn't. I went into the Military, busted my *kitten* and broke my back (literally). Got out, got married, bought a small 21 acre farm. And my parents never had to break open their piggy bank to help me out. I did it all on my own. If I couldn't afford it, I didn't need it.

Now, having medical issues and medical bills I can't really pay (but do) I have some outstanding CC debt that has been racked up just to make ends meet at times. Maybe they need to come up with a bill where my CC debt is wiped out so that I don't responsibility for my own debt issues.

I pay my own debt off. I don't rack it up unnecessarily and live within my means. Why should I have to pay someone else debt off that they are not even willing to do for them selves. I swear, kids these days are only looking for nothing but handouts and can't take responsibility for their own actions or debt.

angryguy77

This is such a touchy subject....
The fact is, things keep getting more expensive while salaries increase at a less steady rate. That is a FACT!
School, cost of living, groceries, gas, cars... etc. Those are all things that cost 200-300% more than they did 15 years ago.
The average salary for a college graduate is the same as it was back in the late 70's.

A lot of us made the mistake to go to college, not worrying about the consequenses, because we are raised to believe that a college education will land us a good job with good pay and we would be able to raise a family and live happily ever after. No one predicted the recession as much as no one ever predicted we would have a black president. We went to college to learn what a rip off college actually is, and now we are stuck with enormous debt and limited opportunities.

I am a high believer in education, but I will never suggest to any high schooler to take on enormous school loans. Therefor, we are going to have a very stupid country. Even dumber than we already are.

What's dumber, putting yourself in debt for an education so you can get a job you want, but live like a hobo, or not go to school and live a life that you can afford?

College is a decision, not a right(not saying you believe it's a right), but people generally go to college because they want to work in a career of their choosing. They go their because they want to, it's not the only way to earn a living.

BullDozier

I think there are too many people just making blanket statements.
The cost of higher education has far out-paced the rate of inflation in this country. Students are getting out of college with massive amounts of debt. Now, I don't necessarily think that the loans should be forgiven, but something needs to be done. Maybe we could give students the same loan terms we gave the big banks - that would be 0%.
To make matters worse - employers are looking for people with higher educations in order to do jobs that didn't require that in the past. I know someone who was a great admin assistant, but couldn't move to another company to do the same job because she didn't have a 4-year degree.
Also, as zman said, wages and salaries have not kept up with the same inflation. People are making less now in relation to the cost of living than they were 30 or 40 years ago.
There's no simple solution and people that make it seem so black and white are not looking at the entire picture.

The most simple solution would be to make qualifying for a student loan more realistic. Make the loan qualification based on the likelihood of being able to repay said loan. Make the student declare their intentions before going to school. Want to borrow 10K a year to get a degree in molecular biology? Approved! Want to borrow 40K a year to get a degree in english? Denied!

Reducing the easy money supply for some of these worthless degrees would bring the rules of supply and demand into play and would reduce the costs of some of these degrees (which is the root of the problem). There is no supply and demand to control the cost of education because there is a virtually limitless supply of money to borrow, regardless of the ROI of the education.

odusgolp

It's also not true about healthcare. The government sets the reimbursement levels and other insurance carriers use that. Doctors can charge whatever they want, but that doesn't mean that's what they'll get reimbursed. Much gets written off. I can show you the numbers for the medical group I work for it you'd like.

True... They sell bad debt for a fraction of the debt to a collection agency and can write-off their loss.

To discuss the state of our economy, inflation, the mortgage crisis, etc. is a much bigger issue. The question of forgiving student loans is the ONLY topic I'm touching here.

zmanincredible

there*

zmanincredible

* there


That's why I went to college.

odusgolp

I don't think anyone agrees that student loan debt should be forgiven, it should just be made easier to repay.
Someone making a $25,000 salary can not pay $1200 a month back to Sallie Mae. That's practically their entire salary after taxes.
But I bet this person would prefer an opportunity to make $45k somewhere else, but those jobs are limited right now.

I would need a very credible example of whose student loans could potentially be $1200/month and makes $25,000/year.

zmanincredible

I think there are too many people just making blanket statements.
The cost of higher education has far out-paced the rate of inflation in this country. Students are getting out of college with massive amounts of debt. Now, I don't necessarily think that the loans should be forgiven, but something needs to be done. Maybe we could give students the same loan terms we gave the big banks - that would be 0%.
To make matters worse - employers are looking for people with higher educations in order to do jobs that didn't require that in the past. I know someone who was a great admin assistant, but couldn't move to another company to do the same job because she didn't have a 4-year degree.
Also, as zman said, wages and salaries have not kept up with the same inflation. People are making less now in relation to the cost of living than they were 30 or 40 years ago.
There's no simple solution and people that make it seem so black and white are not looking at the entire picture.

The most simple solution would be to make qualifying for a student loan more realistic. Make the loan qualification based on the likelihood of being able to repay said loan. Make the student declare their intentions before going to school. Want to borrow 10K a year to get a degree in molecular biology? Approved! Want to borrow 40K a year to get a degree in english? Denied!

Reducing the easy money supply for some of these worthless degrees would bring the rules of supply and demand into play and would reduce the costs of some of these degrees (which is the root of the problem). There is no supply and demand to control the cost of education because there is a virtually limitless supply of money to borrow, regardless of the ROI of the education.

I agree... same as the housing market. This is why student loans are out of control.

Eaglesfanintn

It's also not true about healthcare. The government sets the reimbursement levels and other insurance carriers use that. Doctors can charge whatever they want, but that doesn't mean that's what they'll get reimbursed. Much gets written off. I can show you the numbers for the medical group I work for it you'd like.

True... They sell bad debt for a fraction of the debt to a collection agency and can write-off their loss.

To discuss the state of our economy, inflation, the mortgage crisis, etc. is a much bigger issue. The question of forgiving student loans is the ONLY topic I'm touching here.

Well, I didn't actually bring it up originally, but...just to be clear...money gets written off before any other collections are made. When a claim comes back from an insurance carrier, there is a payment amount and a write off amount. If you ever look at an EOB (explanation of benefits) from an insurance carrier, you'll see that write-off amounts come from them.
When the balance is dropped to patient responsibility and then the practice can't collect all of the money, they may then write the balance off to bad debt, but that's not the same thing.

tlynnclemmons

WOW! I'm sure i'm about to offend someone but that is really NOT my intention - I just want to put the info I know to be true out there for thought!

I work for a state university & what no one seems to be pointing out is that taxpayers are ALREADY paying for college tuitions. Do you have any idea how many medical students I hear everyday talk about the fact they are getting a free education & how the university paid for their transfers and/or visa to come here - but yet my step-sons girlfriend who is in the nursing school of the university I work for couldn't even get a student loan because her parents have bad credit from the economy and losing both of their jobs so she is working 2 jobs while going to school so she can pay almost $800 month in payments just to be able to go to school. I don't get how it's ok to pay for others to come here and learn for free when we don't take care of our own. And this state I live in is the worse! They pride theirselves on the fact that they give free educations to people who are not citizens - hello - what about the people who are born here, raised here, live here their whole life, and stay here AFTER they get their education to support the economy. But that's just one girls opinion.

wolfi622

An English degree is worthless? Who gets to decide what is an acceptable area of knowledge to acquire? We'd be a pretty sad society if were all about "ROI". An education is for - well, an education, not just "job training".

angryguy77

My entire college education, four years of it, cost around $10K. And I have a very good job. Maybe people should consider their budgets when choosing a university to attend.

Just sayin'.

Another nail hit on the head. Too many people are borrowing too much money to get an education in a field that doesn't make much money, and then they complain about the cost of education.

I'll take my wife for an example, so I don't offend anyone else. She went to an expensive private school to get an education degree. She knew the exact job she wanted, and the exact school she wanted to teach at. Luckily for her, she got the job. Unfortunately for her, her salary was half of what one year at college cost her.

There are too many people making similarly poor fiscal decisions for me to give any real sympathy to the student loan forgiveness idea.

Even state schools are all hitting the $10K/year just for tuition alone. It was $4K/year for my school a decade ago and now its $10K/year. There is no avoiding it. You either get a 4-year degree and take on massive student loan debt, or you take a job with low wages. Or if you're the 1% you start a business but that's not going to work for most.

You do realize that one of the reasons college is so expensive is due to the gov don't you? See, the colleges know that they can charge whatever they want because so many people can get loans. They know that if they raise tuition, the gov will be forced to raise loan amounts. It one of the same reason healthcare is so expensive, but that's another topic for another time.

And what do you think will happen to tuition in the future if all student loan debt was erased?

Now I'm not saying I don't want people to have the opportunity to go to college. But college isn't for everyone, and people should choose a school that they can afford. You know there is such a thing as night classes and part-time programs that will allow people to get an education while working full-time.
And before you say "that's not fair", life isn't fair and sometimes we can't always get what we want-including a college education.

Actually, that's not true on any level. Government loans have a limit - just ask the for profit colleges. They get the most out of it. Student loans from the government are not going to pay your way to many of the private colleges and universities.
It's also not true about healthcare. The government sets the reimbursement levels and other insurance carriers use that. Doctors can charge whatever they want, but that doesn't mean that's what they'll get reimbursed. Much gets written off. I can show you the numbers for the medical group I work for it you'd like.

Actually it is trure, where do you think the hospitals make up the difference they get reimbursed for? From the people who have to pay their own insurance. It's all passed on, just like many other industries, just more so in the health field because of the gov intervention-but I really don't want to hijack this thread so that's where I'll leave it.

Of course gov loans don't pay all the tuition, but access to loans is easy and the universities don't have to compete on average because there are so many people that can go to college right out of high school. The pool is very large and these schools don't have to really compete price wise. Force students to put skin in the game right away and they will shop for what they can afford now, not what they think they can afford when they graduate.

BullDozier

I think there are too many people just making blanket statements.
The cost of higher education has far out-paced the rate of inflation in this country. Students are getting out of college with massive amounts of debt. Now, I don't necessarily think that the loans should be forgiven, but something needs to be done. Maybe we could give students the same loan terms we gave the big banks - that would be 0%.
To make matters worse - employers are looking for people with higher educations in order to do jobs that didn't require that in the past. I know someone who was a great admin assistant, but couldn't move to another company to do the same job because she didn't have a 4-year degree.
Also, as zman said, wages and salaries have not kept up with the same inflation. People are making less now in relation to the cost of living than they were 30 or 40 years ago.
There's no simple solution and people that make it seem so black and white are not looking at the entire picture.

The most simple solution would be to make qualifying for a student loan more realistic. Make the loan qualification based on the likelihood of being able to repay said loan. Make the student declare their intentions before going to school. Want to borrow 10K a year to get a degree in molecular biology? Approved! Want to borrow 40K a year to get a degree in english? Denied!

Reducing the easy money supply for some of these worthless degrees would bring the rules of supply and demand into play and would reduce the costs of some of these degrees (which is the root of the problem). There is no supply and demand to control the cost of education because there is a virtually limitless supply of money to borrow, regardless of the ROI of the education.

I agree... same as the housing market. This is why student loans are out of control.

Yep. The student loan needs to go through a similar correct as to what happened to the housing market. Forgiving student loans is not the fix.

jnh17

WOW! I'm sure i'm about to offend someone but that is really NOT my intention - I just want to put the info I know to be true out there for thought!

I work for a state university & what no one seems to be pointing out is that taxpayers are ALREADY paying for college tuitions. Do you have any idea how many medical students I hear everyday talk about the fact they are getting a free education & how the university paid for their transfers and/or visa to come here - but yet my step-sons girlfriend who is in the nursing school of the university I work for couldn't even get a student loan because her parents have bad credit from the economy and losing both of their jobs so she is working 2 jobs while going to school so she can pay almost $800 month in payments just to be able to go to school. I don't get how it's ok to pay for others to come here and learn for free when we don't take care of our own. And this state I live in is the worse! They pride theirselves on the fact that they give free educations to people who are not citizens - hello - what about the people who are born here, raised here, live here their whole life, and stay here AFTER they get their education to support the economy. But that's just one girls opinion.

This is a great example -- when push comes to shove, you (or your step-son's gf) do what you have to do withOUT loans. People just don't want to effing work. Period. It can be done. Kudos to this girl ^.

angryguy77

I think there are too many people just making blanket statements.
The cost of higher education has far out-paced the rate of inflation in this country. Students are getting out of college with massive amounts of debt. Now, I don't necessarily think that the loans should be forgiven, but something needs to be done. Maybe we could give students the same loan terms we gave the big banks - that would be 0%.
To make matters worse - employers are looking for people with higher educations in order to do jobs that didn't require that in the past. I know someone who was a great admin assistant, but couldn't move to another company to do the same job because she didn't have a 4-year degree.
Also, as zman said, wages and salaries have not kept up with the same inflation. People are making less now in relation to the cost of living than they were 30 or 40 years ago.
There's no simple solution and people that make it seem so black and white are not looking at the entire picture.

The most simple solution would be to make qualifying for a student loan more realistic. Make the loan qualification based on the likelihood of being able to repay said loan. Make the student declare their intentions before going to school. Want to borrow 10K a year to get a degree in molecular biology? Approved! Want to borrow 40K a year to get a degree in english? Denied!

Reducing the easy money supply for some of these worthless degrees would bring the rules of supply and demand into play and would reduce the costs of some of these degrees (which is the root of the problem). There is no supply and demand to control the cost of education because there is a virtually limitless supply of money to borrow, regardless of the ROI of the education.

exactly the point I was trying to make, but you did it much better.

zmanincredible

I don't think anyone agrees that student loan debt should be forgiven, it should just be made easier to repay.
Someone making a $25,000 salary can not pay $1200 a month back to Sallie Mae. That's practically their entire salary after taxes.
But I bet this person would prefer an opportunity to make $45k somewhere else, but those jobs are limited right now.

I would need a very credible example of whose student loans could potentially be $1200/month and makes $25,000/year.

shut up