Ketone Bodies, the Brain, and Cancer - Low Carb

NoAdditives

The only carbohydrates that our bodies NEED are those that are provided for by nature.

Nature has it right. Man does not...

PERIOD

You know, I'm inclned to agree with you, but what about wheats? They have to be minimally processed (granted, most that humans eat are very processed). Nature provided wheat, and other grains that need to be minimally processed. So my question would be where do they fit in the picture? G

We don't have to eat every single plant (or animal) in nature simply because it is available.

NoAdditives

Can't build muscle on a ketogenic diet. You need insulin spikes for that. That pretty much sums it up for me.

While this is true, being insulin resistant, I was spiking my insulin EVERY TIME I ATE before cutting down the carbs, inturn making me MORE insulin resistant and eventually probably would have led to type 2 diabetes. Instead, I'll spike my insulin every few days or once a week, not multiple times a day.

Same here... I can get all the carbs my brain or muscles "need" from veggies and fruits. Those who despise the thought of low carb do not have to deal with diabetes. Proteins, fats, veggies, and fruits - thats all we need. Grains are actually a processed carb and not good for diabetics.

No one said anyone had to eat grains.

CaroSeraMince

I've been on a ketogenic diet for a couple of months now and am married to a carb-loving neuropathologist who studies the types of pediatric brain cancers in that paper. It just so happens that we had a conversation about the legitimacy of that study last weekend. I had him read the original study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/7790697?dopt=Abstract&holding=f1000,f1000m,isrctn) and another paper I found in which a small update to the original study was added 10 years after the fact (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3157418/?tool=pubmed). So far as my husband was concerned, both of these studies were little more than anecdotal and are not even remotely close to being evidence enough to state that ketogenic diets have an impact one way or the other on cancer growth.

Some major issues he pointed out: the study itself is identified even by the authors as being incomplete and inconclusive. These studies were not published by high ranking, reputable, peer-reviewed journals. Maybe most obviously, the studies are poorly designed, include far too few participants of too many varied states, conditions, and cancers, standards of measurement are inconsistent from one participating patient/hospital/doctor to the next...

These papers serve as examples of some cancer patients noticing quality of life improvement from a ketogenic diet. However, these studies do not demonstrate a CAUSAL relationship between a ketogenic diet and any effect on cancer one way or the other.

Another note - It's true that cancer cells use more glucose when glucose is available. Cancer cells simply use more energy, period, than other cells. However, the statements I've seen in several papers that state (but fail to cite) that cancer can ONLY use glucose is a failure of logic. Observing a drop in the metabolism of glucose in cancer cells when available glucose is minimized does not demonstrate that the cancer is not using and can not use other fuels. Nobody has demonstrated that cancer cells are only able to use glucose as fuel or that cancer cells are unable to use ketones. I, too, have read in (frighteningly bad) peer-reviewed papers that "cancer cells need glucose to survive" but those papers do not demonstrate this or refer to any other study that has.

It's easy to think that because something has been published in a medical journal that it is GOOD science, but that isn't always the case. Unfortunately, popular media loves to further distort questionable science and deliver it to the public as indisputable fact.

Otherwise, though, I think ketosis is great, and I don't find it surprising that anyone, cancer or no cancer, would feel better on such a diet. That doesn't mean that it's a cure for cancer, though.

Your username is entirely apt.

RachelsReboot

Can't build muscle on a ketogenic diet. You need insulin spikes for that. That pretty much sums it up for me.

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And on the same token the experts say you cannot build muscle on a high carb / low calorie diet as well, so what is your point?

Studies have shown also that a ketogenic diet actually has a better muscle sparing effect than a high carb low calorie diet does.

Didn't address the point I was making. Building muscle is important to myself and the majority of my clientele. So ketogenic is pretty much out. Muscle sparing can be done without having to go on ketogenic diet.

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So, what you are telling me then is that given my disorder, I will never be able to build muscle and I might as well give up my workouts and my career aspirations because where I am now, this point I've come to, this is it. I have absolutely no chance of building muscle?

DB_1106

Can't build muscle on a ketogenic diet. You need insulin spikes for that. That pretty much sums it up for me.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

And on the same token the experts say you cannot build muscle on a high carb / low calorie diet as well, so what is your point?

Studies have shown also that a ketogenic diet actually has a better muscle sparing effect than a high carb low calorie diet does.

Didn't address the point I was making. Building muscle is important to myself and the majority of my clientele. So ketogenic is pretty much out. Muscle sparing can be done without having to go on ketogenic diet.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

You should know all of this since you have so many degress or whatever that is in your signature, but for weight loss you need to be in a caloric negetive and for weight gain or muscle gain you need to be in a caloric surplus.

Because the human body is designed to sacrifice muscle when losing weight as a survival mechanism, only a certain body type will permit the simultaneous growth of muscle and loss of overall mass. If you're significantly overweight, your body may be able to support increased muscle mass even on a caloric deficit, provided it has less fat to maintain. If you're relatively lean and/or muscular, however, it is much more difficult for your body to increase muscle mass while experiencing a caloric deficit.
When experiencing a caloric deficit, your body is under stress. This can inhibit muscular synthesis alone.

bacitracin

And as far as needing "insulin spikes" to create muscle mass (which I have never heard before), protein can also cause an insulin response, as well as your body's gluconeogenesis. I am on a ketogenic diet, but it doesn't mean I have low blood sugar. And I've built muscle while on a caloric deficit. If anything, lifting helped my body to convert fat to muscle (as far as BF% and "weight loss" goes) even faster.

ninerbuff

So, what you are telling me then is that given my disorder, I will never be able to build muscle and I might as well give up my workouts and my career aspirations because where I am now, this point I've come to, this is it. I have absolutely no chance of building muscle?

Never, probably not. I'm sure there's ways around every disorder to achieve certain goals.

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ninerbuff

You should know all of this since you have so many degress or whatever that is in your signature, but for weight loss you need to be in a caloric negetive and for weight gain or muscle gain you need to be in a caloric surplus.

I don't dispute this.

Because the human body is designed to sacrifice muscle when losing weight as a survival mechanism, only a certain body type will permit the simultaneous growth of muscle and loss of overall mass. If you're significantly overweight, your body may be able to support increased muscle mass even on a caloric deficit, provided it has less fat to maintain. If you're relatively lean and/or muscular, however, it is much more difficult for your body to increase muscle mass while experiencing a caloric deficit.
When experiencing a caloric deficit, your body is under stress. This can inhibit muscular synthesis alone.

I don't dispute this either. Even the obese/overweight person won't gain a significant amount of muscle though. I believe in a ketogenic diet SHORT TERM to "cut up" for a contest, but for lifestyle or to be used to add on a significant amount of muscle, scientific studies are showing that it's not practical.

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ninerbuff

And as far as needing "insulin spikes" to create muscle mass (which I have never heard before), protein can also cause an insulin response, as well as your body's gluconeogenesis. I am on a ketogenic diet, but it doesn't mean I have low blood sugar. And I've built muscle while on a caloric deficit. If anything, lifting helped my body to convert fat to muscle (as far as BF% and "weight loss" goes) even faster.

Guess you didn't read the article I posted on how insulin response works with ketogenic diet. Between 50–60% of protein becomes glucose and enters the bloodstream about 3–4 hours after eaten." Perhaps 50–60% of protein goes through the process of gluconeogenesis in the liver, but virtually none of this glucose enters into the general circulation. This from the Journal of Diabetes.org
And how are you certain you built muscle? Did you do a dexa scan to verify it? Or like many are you assuming that because you got stronger, can see more definition, and your muscle "pops" now that muscle gain was achieved?
Don't need to try to convince me because I've been doing this long enough to understand how muscle building is attained. What you're trying to convey is anecdotal and unless you've got some peer reviewed studies to actually back them, then it's just opinion.

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judychicken

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