Gary Taubes

nehushtan

Learn the word tendentious. It's Gary Taubes all over. It's typical of autodidacts. He's also rather a conspiracy theorist, and too much of a hothead -- he's very binary but the science of the human digestive system is not.

I say this as a former Atkins dieter. I know it can work (it worked for me in 1996), but I also know that calorie deficit dieting works too. Taubes is just too one-sided.

yarwell

Thanks! Stupid question, but how do you know when it's cooked thoroughly? All recipes state "cook for this amount of time, give or take a few minutes"... well I have no idea how to know!

if the oven was hot to start with 20 minutes will cook fish fillets, so just eat them. They do change colour and texture.

You can buy smoked ready to eat ones, and warm them up if you want or eat them cold.

pitbulllover

Learn the word tendentious. It's Gary Taubes all over. It's typical of autodidacts. He's also rather a conspiracy theorist, and too much of a hothead -- he's very binary but the science of the human digestive system is not.

I say this as a former Atkins dieter. I know it can work (it worked for me in 1996), but I also know that calorie deficit dieting works too. Taubes is just too one-sided.

I don't understand why you think calorie-deficits will work for everyone if they worked for you. Can no one understand that we're all slightly physiologically different??

And in my first post, I said that low-carb diets aren't for everyone. If you don't want to eat low-carb, then don't comment here. I was just looking for others going through similar things as me. I wasn't looking to have to defend myself against everyone coming to tell me how wrong I am.

callmeBAM

Some scientific truths, at one time, that have been debunked:
- human settlement caused a permanent increase in rainfall
- alchemy
- 16th century: California was an island separate from the North American mainland.
- Geocentricity
- the four humors
- Vitalism
- Maternal Impression
- phlogiston
- spontaneous generations

My point? Science is always evolving and discovering new truths and disproving old ones. To dismissively write off a nutritional belief, theory, study that you don't agree with because it goes against what you've been told is adolescent.

Acg67

Learn the word tendentious. It's Gary Taubes all over. It's typical of autodidacts. He's also rather a conspiracy theorist, and too much of a hothead -- he's very binary but the science of the human digestive system is not.

I say this as a former Atkins dieter. I know it can work (it worked for me in 1996), but I also know that calorie deficit dieting works too. Taubes is just too one-sided.

I don't understand why you think calorie-deficits will work for everyone if they worked for you. Can no one understand that we're all slightly physiologically different??

And in my first post, I said that low-carb diets aren't for everyone. If you don't want to eat low-carb, then don't comment here. I was just looking for others going through similar things as me. I wasn't looking to have to defend myself against everyone coming to tell me how wrong I am.

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You Are Not Different

All over the internet, on forums dedicated to everything from weight loss to muscle gain, people will loudly argue that they are different. “My metabolism is different.”, “My nervous system is different”, “My muscles are different”, things of that sort. Everyone is a unique and delicate flower, just like their mom told them.

This usually follows them explaining why the good advice that others have used can’t possibly work for them. They are also usually the ones making no progress who won’t even consider trying something else. THEY. ARE. DIFFERENT.

Individuals who have a lot of fat to lose either think that they can magically gain weight eating only a few hundred calories per day, or that they can lose weight just by rearranging their food in some special way. Because their metabolism is different.

Diets play on this of course, hiding the simple fact that they are causing you to eat less in a complicated pseudoscience of macronutrient ratios and such. But there is never any magic to be had when you look at these books critically: it all comes down to making the person eat less, exercise more, or both. It’s just hidden in complex schemes and pseudo-physiology.

In short: you can’t beat thermodynamics anymore than anything else in the universe. You. Are. Not. Different. You can’t gain bodymass unless your energy intake exceeds your energy output because you can’t make something out of nothing (muscle or fat). And you can’t lose bodymass unless your energy intake is less than your energy ouput. These are rules that every system in the universe has to follow, including the human body. Nature’s rules, not mine to quote the all-knowing Mr. Miyagi. We may not like them, but we have to live by them anyway.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/you-are-not-different.html

tigersword

Learn the word tendentious. It's Gary Taubes all over. It's typical of autodidacts. He's also rather a conspiracy theorist, and too much of a hothead -- he's very binary but the science of the human digestive system is not.

I say this as a former Atkins dieter. I know it can work (it worked for me in 1996), but I also know that calorie deficit dieting works too. Taubes is just too one-sided.

I don't understand why you think calorie-deficits will work for everyone if they worked for you. Can no one understand that we're all slightly physiologically different??

And in my first post, I said that low-carb diets aren't for everyone. If you don't want to eat low-carb, then don't comment here. I was just looking for others going through similar things as me. I wasn't looking to have to defend myself against everyone coming to tell me how wrong I am.

Because calorie deficits are the reason you lose weight, regardless of your diet. You've already admitted to having several metabolic and hormonal issues, which have negative impacts on the metabolism. A person who normally burns 2000 calories and eats 1500 calories, loses weight. A person with a metabolic disfunction may only eat 1500 calories, but due to the inefficiency of the metabolism, may only burn 1000 calories, leading to weight gain. Changing the diet to compensate for those inefficiencies will help the metabolism to run normally, leading to weight loss, even while eating the same total calories as the first diet, and sometimes even more.

So, it's all about calories in vs calories out. Having a metabolic illness changes the actual numbers, but doesn't change the Laws of Thermodynamics.

The problem with Gary Taubes, is, for one thing, he has absolutely ZERO nutritional education. His degree is in journalism. He studied engineering and aeronautics. He's not a scientist, or a doctor, he's a writer. He has no more expertise or credibility to talk nutrition than any random poster on this site. However, as a journalist, it's his job to write in a way to make people believe him, the truth is irrelevant.

pitbulllover

No one here is disputing the laws of thermodynamics. No one is claiming they create matter out of thin air.

When I go on low calorie (but still high carb) diets, I sleep. A lot. I can sleep 12 hours and still feel worn out. I can try to exercise, but I'll feel dizzy shortly after. I stay fat, because my body converts my meals into fat instead of giving me energy.

Why are naturally thin people able to convert their meals into energy so that they can be active and healthy?

And why does restricting my carbs allow me to lose some weight without feeling sick and tired?

And why are you here???

ReinventingLisa

Honestly, I've had no problems eating low/moderate carbs. It's helped me clean up my diet, reduce my caffeine intake, and drink more water vs diet soda and anything with aspartame. If anything, I need to increase my fruits and veggies a little more since I am a picky eater, and I am working on it.

The problem I have with studies is that they seem to typically aim towards what they were looking to prove, and science and discoveries.. everything is always changing. I'm not saying that implies that I think all scientific studies are flawed.. but more or less I think we're in the infancy of really knowing. Gary Taubes just brings to light some information I may be already looking for that's out there. But I take studies with a grain of salt, and look for what I've noticed is try and true for me.

I think "calories in calories out" is plausible and proven and has worked for me, but I also think there is more to it than that.

RobynC79

lol@taking studies using rats seriously.

Seriously guys, rats react differently than humans to a LOT of stuff. We've pretty much cured every disease in RATS, doesn't mean that same drug or treatment will work in humans.

This statement is incorrect. Rodent models are the primary biomedical tool for understanding basic mechanisms of physiology and pathophysiology. We have not 'cured every disease in rats' - not even close. Mammals have very highly conserved physiology, which is why most drug development and basic research is done on rodents - they are a small mammal, readily available and easy to work with.
Not everything that is effective in a rodent model translates to success in clinical trials, but your assertion that you laugh at rat or mice studies reveals a facile and flawed understanding of basic biomedical research science.

Acg67

lol@taking studies using rats seriously.

Seriously guys, rats react differently than humans to a LOT of stuff. We've pretty much cured every disease in RATS, doesn't mean that same drug or treatment will work in humans.

This statement is incorrect. Rodent models are the primary biomedical tool for understanding basic mechanisms of physiology and pathophysiology. We have not 'cured every disease in rats' - not even close. Mammals have very highly conserved physiology, which is why most drug development and basic research is done on rodents - they are a small mammal, readily available and easy to work with.
Not everything that is effective in a rodent model translates to success in clinical trials, but your assertion that you laugh at rat or mice studies reveals a facile and flawed understanding of basic biomedical research science.

i thought this was good about that subject



http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2012/02/of-mice-men-my-rodent-study-disclaimer.html

twinmom01

I haven't read any of the other responses since I am sure it is just back and forth of

He Sucks

He's Great

He doesn't know what the hell he is writing about

He has everything right

All I know is personal experience - I have read and read and read about nutrition and watched calories and ate low fat and stayed within the SAD macros and had a heck of a time loosing weight...I read "why we get fat" and from there read a little more about what he covers in that book from a few other different sources and decided to give it a whirl and totally changed the way I eat (what i was eating and the macros - mainly ditching the bulk of carbs and upping good fats and protiens) but didn't change my overall calorie intake and did the same exercise and I steadily have lost weight...

It's all a personal thing...

tigersword

No one here is disputing the laws of thermodynamics. No one is claiming they create matter out of thin air.

When I go on low calorie (but still high carb) diets, I sleep. A lot. I can sleep 12 hours and still feel worn out. I can try to exercise, but I'll feel dizzy shortly after. I stay fat, because my body converts my meals into fat instead of giving me energy.

Why are naturally thin people able to convert their meals into energy so that they can be active and healthy?

And why does restricting my carbs allow me to lose some weight without feeling sick and tired?

And why are you here???

Did you not read the part of my post where I explained and answered those questions?

And I'm here because it's a public forum, and I believe in facts. Taubes wrote a book, by cherry picking a few studies that matched the conclusion he wanted to write about, all while completely ignoring the vast majority of research that completely blows his theories out of the water.

It's kind of like if I wanted to prove that the sky is gray. I take thousands of pictures on overcast days, and write my book, insisting the sky is gray, and completely ignoring all of the other days of the year when there were no clouds and the sky was blue. That's Taubes' book in a nutshell. Real science is looking at the data and coming to a conclusion. Taubes invented a conclusion, and then searched for data to fit it.

Saruman_w

Why would anyone want to go low carb AND veggie? That sounds like you'll end up denying your body all sorts of needed sources of nutrition. People should focus less on eliminating entire food groups and more on MODERATION and well-planned balanced diets.

Sidesteal

While I am ALL for people using ethical and/or religious reasons to dictate food choices,

People should focus less on eliminating entire food groups and more on MODERATION and well-planned balanced diets.

I absolutely agree with this outside of my first sentence in this post.

Acg67

Gary Taubes...genius

"If you restrict only carbohydra­tes, you can always eat more protein and fat if you feel the urge, since they have no effect on fat accumulati­on"

Location 2519 Kindle edition of Why We Get Fat

"But protein and fat don't make us fat-only the carbohydra­tes do-so there is no reason to curtail them in any way"

Location 3064 Kindle edition of Why We Get Fat

Sidesteal

Gary Taubes...genius

"If you restrict only carbohydra­tes, you can always eat more protein and fat if you feel the urge, since they have no effect on fat accumulati­on"

Location 2519 Kindle edition of Why We Get Fat

"But protein and fat don't make us fat-only the carbohydra­tes do-so there is no reason to curtail them in any way"

Location 3064 Kindle edition of Why We Get Fat

I can feel myself getting dumber from reading this horse-*kitten*.

pitbulllover

Did you not read the part of my post where I explained and answered those questions?

Actually my "I'm-not-denying-laws-of-thermodynamics" rant was in response to Acg67, not you. I didn't see your response until after I had posted that.

AlyRoseNYC

Gary Taubes...genius

"If you restrict only carbohydra­tes, you can always eat more protein and fat if you feel the urge, since they have no effect on fat accumulati­on"

Location 2519 Kindle edition of Why We Get Fat

"But protein and fat don't make us fat-only the carbohydra­tes do-so there is no reason to curtail them in any way"

Location 3064 Kindle edition of Why We Get Fat

oy vey...

pitbulllover

Why would anyone want to go low carb AND veggie? That sounds like you'll end up denying your body all sorts of needed sources of nutrition. People should focus less on eliminating entire food groups and more on MODERATION and well-planned balanced diets.

I've always been a vegetarian (at least since I was a kid). I'm trying to go low-carb now. It's not that I WANT to be a vegetarian, it's just that it's somewhat emotionally disturbing to me to think of eating meat. But it's obviously making the low-carb thing difficult... hence all my questions about how to cook meat/fish and my questioning whether I should try eating meat again.

And moderation didn't work for me, that's why I'm trying low carb.

ATT949

I won't go back and quote some of the responses but quoting from Taubes' book or saying that he's a writer sans medical/nutritional training are not what I would have expected from you folks. I've seen some well thought out, informative postings but mebbe Taubes just gets under your (plural) skin?

While I realize that you folks are time constrained, links to discussions of his book would be extremely helpful. In fact, I started a thread about that a few months ago but got zero responses (I haven't checked recently).

So, you two guys with the muscles, how about it? I know enough to speak poorly of Taubes' book (meaning that I know what words to use) but I don't know enough to speak credibly about his work.

How about it? Show some links and share the knowledge?

Thanks.

VMarkV

Pretty much, you want to cover the essential macros first, Fat and Protein. How much you need is extremely variable person to person based on basal metabolic rate, activity, athletic performance, diseases, etc. Once these are figured out, then you fiddle around with carbohydrates based on how much of a calorie surplus or deficit you want and your average daily activity level.

Let's say I want a 250kcal deficit, after figuring out my protein and fat requirements, I have 250 kcal left to reach my maintenance. I then figure I will burn 500 kcal from walking 1 hour (now 750 kcal from maintenance and 500 kcal from my goal deficit). I have 500kcal to reach my goal, so I eat 125g carbohydrates to reach my goal. Alternatively, I could just forgoe exercise altogether and eat no carbohydrates, but still reach my calorie deficit goal. Ideally, your calories from burnt from exercise should match the calories you eat from carbohydrates since carbohydrates are the easiest macro to convert into energy. This approach is what is used for people in fitness/modeling/bodybuilders/etc.

I am sure with some research, you might be able to find specific macros for protein and fat based on needs (medical conditions). That's where the whole keto-diet came from - originally catered for people with seizures.

Going low/no carb will cause exercise performance to suffer but is perfectly fine on days where your activity is low/minimum.

onmyway1101

I am not familiar with Gary Taubes but I am on the four hour body diet by Timothy Ferriss. He incoporates a low carb diet.... It mainly exists of lean meats, legumes and lentils, and vegetables. He says to eat 30 grams of protein within 30 minutes of waking and then at least 20 grams of protein at each meal. I started last Monday 4/30/2012 and lost so far 10 pounds.

kennethmgreen

And he's 100%, certifiably, wrong as hell.

Where's your evidence to support that?

And why are you even here commenting if you don't agree with him??

This right here is what is wrong with the Internet. Seriously.

I'm not picking on the person that posted this. There are countless examples. I'm picking on the mentality, the logic behind only wanting information that agrees with you. How is that useful? How do we learn? It bothers me to see forum participants asking "why are you here if you don't agree?" I WANT people disagreeing. It helps bolster my BS meter.

Aside from the fact that as a forum user, the person that replied has every right to post wherever he wants (within the rules), there is nothing snarky or rude in that response. He is simply disagreeing. I'm all for asking for evidence. But asking someone not to participate because they disagree is antithetical to online forums. And learning.

I think it is helpful that he is disagreeing. In fact, I think it is CRUCIAL on a weight loss/fitness site that ideas about diet and nutrition are challenged. It forces me to do some research. It opens my eyes to new ideas. It keeps people who are gullible and/or new from blindly following advice that may not work - or even be unhealthy.

I'm grateful for those that disagree and provide information. I'm grateful for those that challenge my ideas and tell me when I'm wrong.

rml_16

he writes well, as a science writer he is distilling knowledge that's out there and becoming more available via the internet.

I don't think medical doctors get much education in nutrition unless they specialise you might like Drs Mike and Mary Eades too who plough a similar furrow to Taubes.

I'm a low carb eater. I eat lots of nice tasty filling stuff without a pile of starch to accompany it ;-)

From what I know (from friends who are in med school) doctors get the same education in nutrition as well as everything else. Nutritionists only have the nutrition side of education and lack all of the other stuff doctors learn. In short, I trust doctors more than nutritionists.

Eh. My actual doctor refers me to a nutritionist because he readily admits he isn't an expert and the nutritionists know more. But whatever.

I don't know who Gary Taubes is. I just use my common sense.

frixtine

To the OP.... If you're thinking about going pescatarian, don't forget that shellfish count too, which means, oysters, crawfish, clams, lobster, and most importantly SHRIMP are a go!!! They are all zero carbs (I believe) and uber nummy!

As for the veggies, just pay attention to which veggies have higher carbs than others. Green beans good, bell peppers good, asparagus good, corn bad., etc. And of course you can still do tofu.

One of my close friends is a pescatarian, and being cajun, I loved cooking for her! Seafood is our way of life! Shrimp kabobs would actually be a great way to get introduced to them.

tigersword

I won't go back and quote some of the responses but quoting from Taubes' book or saying that he's a writer sans medical/nutritional training are not what I would have expected from you folks. I've seen some well thought out, informative postings but mebbe Taubes just gets under your (plural) skin?

You don't think the fact that he has zero knowledge in the area that he is writing about is an issue?

ATT949

I won't go back and quote some of the responses but quoting from Taubes' book or saying that he's a writer sans medical/nutritional training are not what I would have expected from you folks. I've seen some well thought out, informative postings but mebbe Taubes just gets under your (plural) skin?

You don't think the fact that he has zero knowledge in the area that he is writing about is an issue?

My opinion of Taubes is based on a smattering of knowledge about nutrition so I'm in no position to question his expertise.

What I am seeking are the reasoned opinions of folks who have expertise in this area.

Thanks.

celebrity328

Pitbull I got the same exact problems you have (PCOS, Insulin resistance, and some high blood presure to boot! Im also guessing you have hyperinsulimia from your exp with carbs)

For 5 months I did the SAD and lost 6Lbs working out 5-6 times a week. I did the trainer thing food logs the works, husband lost 30Lbs I lost 6!! I also like to note that during this 5 months I never cheated ate exactly what everyone told me to and nothing happen. Fast forward 3 months ago. I went to the doctor found out that I got alot of hormonal problems etc (same stuff you got!) My doctor said "go low carb" not giving me any real information on the whys I just kinda stumbled into a Ketogenic diet. In the two weeks since I started my new "diet" I have lost almost 10 pounds, my depression is gone, and im not having "insulin coma" problems anymore.

As far as the killing animals thing and eating meat I was vegan for most of my life. Until recently I never really ate alot of meat because I felt it was wrong/gross. Now I only buy my meat at a local butcher where I know the animals are treated correctly (free range grass fed etc the values I believe in) For some reason I just cant bring myself to buy mass produced meat because I dont agree with the way the animals are treated/fed (have you seen them in CA? lol) Also much of the main stream meat sources are fed a high diet of corn mush to get them fatter etc.. I just feel that I rather give my money to a local butcher then support a company that treats animals like crap. With that being said it took some getting use to eating meat but I did it slowly and my husband show me how to cook meat correctly

I know the struggles/frustration that PCOS brings. For months I felt I just wasnt doing enough and that something was wrong with ME. Well come to find out that the spikes in insulin because of my SAD diet were causing most of my problems and making me even fater then I was. Im not going to argue about studies or research because at this point I believe its moot since most people dont have insulin resistance or hyperinsulimia. I believe for me this is the only way to lose weight (believe me when I say I have tried EVERYTHING!) I just want to encourage you to continue doing what you feel is best for you and learn how to "manage" your symptoms of PCOS in a way that you can live with, because in the end thats really what matters

I found a web site that might be helpful called waroninsulin.com It might be helpful the guys a MD and on the same diet I am. Its a blog etc but maybe you can get some more information that might be helpful. Wish you luck in what ever you do!

VMarkV

The whole "insulin spiking" argument that people like Taubes make does not make sense. Protein "spikes" insulin also, not just carbohydrates while fat does not acutally "spike" insulin.

onedayillbeamilf

The whole "insulin spiking" argument that people like Taubes make does not make sense. Protein "spikes" insulin also, not just carbohydrates while fat does not acutally "spike" insulin.

I did not know that.