Gary Taubes
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Lol
"Last fall, researchers at the University of California, Davis, published three studies—two of humans, one of rhesus monkeys—confirming the deleterious effect of these sugars on metabolism and insulin levels. The message of all three studies was that sugars are unhealthy—not because people or monkeys consumed too much of them, but because, well, they do things to our bodies that the other nutrients we eat simply don’t do."
How does he come to that conclusion? Did he even read those studies? So 25% of caloric intake in sugar for sedentary individuals doesn't constitute too much?
Of course sugar does things other nutrients don't do. So do fats and so do proteins. If they all did the same thing, there would only be one macronutrient, called food....0 -
Lol
"Last fall, researchers at the University of California, Davis, published three studies—two of humans, one of rhesus monkeys—confirming the deleterious effect of these sugars on metabolism and insulin levels. The message of all three studies was that sugars are unhealthy—not because people or monkeys consumed too much of them, but because, well, they do things to our bodies that the other nutrients we eat simply don’t do."
How does he come to that conclusion? Did he even read those studies? So 25% of caloric intake in sugar for sedentary individuals doesn't constitute too much?
Of course sugar does things other nutrients don't do. So do fats and so do proteins. If they all did the same thing, there would only be one macronutrient, called food....
So context and dosage means nothing in regards to sugar? What if the subjects had been active individuals who ate 10% of their caloric intake in sugar while in a hypocaloric state, would they have gotten the same results?0 -
So context and dosage means nothing in regards to sugar? What if the subjects had been active individuals who ate 10% of their caloric intake in sugar while in a hypocaloric state, would they have gotten the same results?
OMG no I wasn't arguing with you, just pointing out that it's silly in the article to use the argument that any macronutrient is different because it's different. They're all different.0 -
I don't believe in any diet dogma. I fully believe that it should all be n=1. You have to find what works for YOU. I have tried many paths to health and weight loss. For me, the calories in vs calories out diet works, but I find myself constantly hungry.
I changed to a vegetarian diet due to moral reasons, and I ate very "well." Lots of whole grains, beans, vegetables, good sources of fat, and fruit. Plus eggs and dairy. My health plummeted. I was already having lots of joint pain, but this became debilitating. I had little energy, and couldn't do much anyway. I had headaches every day. My hypoglycemia was at its worst. I had sleep paralysis often, and my depression soared. On top of that, I gained weight.
I did some research and found that gluten was often linked to joint pain. I cut it (along with all other grains and refined sugars) out of my diet. Within 2 weeks, my joint pain was gone. My energy soared, and my depression plummeted. No more headaches. Hypoglycemia was completely gone.
In my n=1 study, this way of eating works for ME. My joint pain clearing up can be attributed to a gluten intolerance. Now when I have even the tiniest amount of gluten, I feel it in my joints within hours. But as for my headaches, those are sugar related. My hypoglycemia is affected by all grains and refined sugar.
This way of eating does not work for everyone. My boyfriend flourished on a vegetarian diet, and he's doing great on a grain-free/refined-sugar-free diet as well. Some people are adaptable. Some people need to do things differently. And that's okay.0 -
The whole "insulin spiking" argument that people like Taubes make does not make sense. Protein "spikes" insulin also, not just carbohydrates while fat does not acutally "spike" insulin.
Too much protein will spike insulin. Protein does not spike insulin if not eaten in excess. Hence the reason that when starting out with Paleo / Primal and Atkins you will be eating higher fat, moderate protein and low carb to heal the body and the pancreas.
Lol, would you consider 2-3 eggs an excessive amount of protein?
No, when I do eat breakfast..........most days I eat 5-6 eggs cooked in coconut oil at one time. I am a former diabetic (now insulin resistant) and 6 eggs has never spiked my blood sugar levels.
Now, I ate nearly a pound of hamburger not so long ago and did get a moderate spike, but it did not stay elevated as long as it does if I eat something with sugar or flour.0 -
I don't believe in any diet dogma. I fully believe that it should all be n=1. You have to find what works for YOU. I have tried many paths to health and weight loss. For me, the calories in vs calories out diet works, but I find myself constantly hungry.
I changed to a vegetarian diet due to moral reasons, and I ate very "well." Lots of whole grains, beans, vegetables, good sources of fat, and fruit. Plus eggs and dairy. My health plummeted. I was already having lots of joint pain, but this became debilitating. I had little energy, and couldn't do much anyway. I had headaches every day. My hypoglycemia was at its worst. I had sleep paralysis often, and my depression soared. On top of that, I gained weight.
I did some research and found that gluten was often linked to joint pain. I cut it (along with all other grains and refined sugars) out of my diet. Within 2 weeks, my joint pain was gone. My energy soared, and my depression plummeted. No more headaches. Hypoglycemia was completely gone.
In my n=1 study, this way of eating works for ME. My joint pain clearing up can be attributed to a gluten intolerance. Now when I have even the tiniest amount of gluten, I feel it in my joints within hours. But as for my headaches, those are sugar related. My hypoglycemia is affected by all grains and refined sugar.
This way of eating does not work for everyone. My boyfriend flourished on a vegetarian diet, and he's doing great on a grain-free/refined-sugar-free diet as well. Some people are adaptable. Some people need to do things differently. And that's okay.
Yes, I am some what like you, except I gained weight weighing my food and counting calories when I was on the SAD way of eating.
Switched to vegetarian an got fatter and sick.
Found out I had HBP, T2D, Hypo-thyroid and PCOS and Dr put me on low carb plan. I was able to regain my health.
This is what works for me. Gluten free, legume free, all grain free, getting meats that have not been fed grains as those proteins seem to affect me also.0 -
Blood sugar and insulin are not the same thing...you are not measuring insulin when you take your blood glucose readingThe whole "insulin spiking" argument that people like Taubes make does not make sense. Protein "spikes" insulin also, not just carbohydrates while fat does not acutally "spike" insulin.
Too much protein will spike insulin. Protein does not spike insulin if not eaten in excess. Hence the reason that when starting out with Paleo / Primal and Atkins you will be eating higher fat, moderate protein and low carb to heal the body and the pancreas.
Lol, would you consider 2-3 eggs an excessive amount of protein?
No, when I do eat breakfast..........most days I eat 5-6 eggs cooked in coconut oil at one time. I am a former diabetic (now insulin resistant) and 6 eggs has never spiked my blood sugar levels.
Now, I ate nearly a pound of hamburger not so long ago and did get a moderate spike, but it did not stay elevated as long as it does if I eat something with sugar or flour.0 -
BTW, eggs are very low on the insulin index since they are have a good amount of fat. Combining fat with protein slows insulin release (lowers the insulin index) and combining fat with carbohydrates slows blood glucose conversion (lowers glycemic index). This is all because fat in general slows gastic emptying and delays nutrient absorption in the small intestines.
That is basically why a high fat diet is good for controlling blood glucose and insulin (so long as fat is eaten with everything)0 -
Yes, I am some what like you, except I gained weight weighing my food and counting calories when I was on the SAD way of eating.
You know...I've seen a LOT of your posts over the last few days.
You're not judgmental at ALL are you?0 -
Blood sugar and insulin are not the same thing...you are not measuring insulin when you take your blood glucose readingThe whole "insulin spiking" argument that people like Taubes make does not make sense. Protein "spikes" insulin also, not just carbohydrates while fat does not acutally "spike" insulin.
Too much protein will spike insulin. Protein does not spike insulin if not eaten in excess. Hence the reason that when starting out with Paleo / Primal and Atkins you will be eating higher fat, moderate protein and low carb to heal the body and the pancreas.
Lol, would you consider 2-3 eggs an excessive amount of protein?
No, when I do eat breakfast..........most days I eat 5-6 eggs cooked in coconut oil at one time. I am a former diabetic (now insulin resistant) and 6 eggs has never spiked my blood sugar levels.
Now, I ate nearly a pound of hamburger not so long ago and did get a moderate spike, but it did not stay elevated as long as it does if I eat something with sugar or flour.
Yes, I am aware of that. However, when someone is Diabetic or Insulin Resistant there is also a LOT of insulin (which is toxic to those of us that are IR or Diabetic) in the blood stream also at the same time due to the blood sugar spike.
I am healing my body and slowly I am once again becoming more insulin sensitive, which means my body will be able to handle a higher carb level again once the healing is done in the liver and pancreas.0 -
BTW, eggs are very low on the insulin index since they are have a good amount of fat. Combining fat with protein slows insulin release (lowers the insulin index) and combining fat with carbohydrates slows blood glucose conversion (lowers glycemic index). This is all because fat in general slows gastic emptying and delays nutrient absorption in the small intestines.
That is basically why a high fat diet is good for controlling blood glucose and insulin (so long as fat is eaten with everything)
So we could just eat cake and ice cream?0 -
BTW, eggs are very low on the insulin index since they are have a good amount of fat. Combining fat with protein slows insulin release (lowers the insulin index) and combining fat with carbohydrates slows blood glucose conversion (lowers glycemic index). This is all because fat in general slows gastic emptying and delays nutrient absorption in the small intestines.
That is basically why a high fat diet is good for controlling blood glucose and insulin (so long as fat is eaten with everything)
So we could just eat cake and ice cream?
From what I've read, I've come to the belief that the absolute worst thing you can do for both cardiovascular health and weight management is eat a high fat, high carb diet. I think the ratios must be inversed for someone who has weight struggles, although I'd argue the majority of the obese would probably fare better on low carb.
With low carb, high fat, your insulin levels stay fairly low and your body is adapted to burning more fat with more stable hormones and thus lower hunger.
With low fat, high carb, your insulin levels are higher, so you are inhibiting fat release and burning more glucose. However there isn't much fat to store and DNL is not a significant factor in fat accumulation.
But when you combine them, you end up with high insulin levels with inhibited fat release and tons of fat to store. So you're burning glucose, storing fat, and then asking for more glucose because your fat isn't being mobilized fast enough. That's the perfect storm for creating a caloric surplus.0 -
I agree that n=1 is the way to go. I have friends who are way thinner than me, eat way way worse and do not exercise. We are different. My brother ate chips, eggs, pizza, drank liters of Pepsi, cookies, snack cakes. Pretty mush all the junk that makes me blow up, and he was thin as a rail. So to the post that claims we cannot escape laws of physics and that we are all the same, couldn't be more wrong.
I don't think any of us is going to win any argument on any of this stuff. Share your experiences and learn. I think though too often the issue is like this:
thin person - "you're overweight because you eat too much and don't exercise, it works for me"
heavy person - "I tried that and it didn't work"
thin person - "Eat less, exercise more"
heavy person - "I tried that too"
thin person - "You are lying, it works for me"
heavy person - "there is something wrong with me"
Gary isn't right on everything, and I am sure he doesn't have the entire thing figured out. I think there is more to it than what we eat. Jimmy Moore is a good example of being a hardcore low carb advocate, yet he has been gaining weight, what's his deal? Something else is at play. But I do believe Gary is closer to the answer than a lot of people. I think at a certain point calories do matter, but not always.
My experience was always low fat watch your calories. I let myself go and a year ago I started eating "clean" again. Lost about 15 pounds and it stopped. I started exercising more, no more weight came off and body fat stayed the same. Cut calories by about 200 a day. Watched everything and kept a log at DailyBurn.com… nothing. Eventually because my calories were so low, and I was exercising so much, I kept getting sick. Sinus infection, sore throat. Like four times last winter. So my body was willing to lower it's immune system rather than burn stored fat. Tell me that is all about calories! I got as low as 900 a day for a couple weeks. And for people who will say I went into starvation mode, maybe I did. But I spent weeks at 1800, 1500, 1200, then 900. Nothing happened.
I was open mined enough to think I didn't know everything and began low carb after reading Gary's books. Well in about four months I lost 35lbs. And this was after I stalled on a low fat calorie restricted diet. In this time my calories were rarely under 3000, and I cut my exercise down to two days a week. And I sit at a desk all day. 70% of my calories came from fat and when I stalled, I took out a bit protein and lost 5 more.
So I stalled again. Started doubting low carbs and insulin hypothesis. So I slowly added a bit more carbs because of T3 suspicions, cut calories, and started exercising four days a week. Well I put 20lbs back on and 8% body fat (some muscle) in about a 4 month span. So I began <30g a day of carbs and so far in the last month I've taken 4% bf back off and 12 of the 20 are gone.
That is my story, could be all BS, no one here knows me. But if any of this rings true, go with your instincts, don't let anyone tell you that they know your body better than you. People on this thread, Gary Taubes, Richard Simmons, anyone. Low carb or High carb. I am willing to admit low fat diets work for people, it's funny how it doesn't go the other way.
One more thing about exercise and performance on LC diet is bad for everyone. It's baloney, at least for me it was. Since I have been eating low carb, anything physical I do, it takes me way way longer to get tired. There is something to be said about having your body be adapted to burning fat. And I used to be one of those guys who said yeah I did low carb, I felt like crap. Well I was doing it wrong. I had to give myself about a month to adjust, and when I did, I felt great.
One tip if you do low carb, supplement with potassium and drink broth. Once your kidneys start dumping sodium, you will feel terrible and weak, got to replace the sodium with broth. This book is a great guide for this:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Art-Science-Carbohydrate-Living/dp/0983490708/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1336703047&sr=8-1
Also if anyone is interested in low carb and performance check out Gary's buddy Peter at http://waroninsulin.com/ he is doing just fine on a ketogenic diet.
So there you have it. I have been watching what I eat since I was 12 and I am now 41. So please don't tell me all I have to do it eat less and exercise more. Although I do believe in exercise, I enjoy it and there are many benefits. But if all I had to do was eat less and exercise more, I would have done it by now!
Also if you want to rip into my story and argue Gary is nuts and low carb diets are worthless, don't bother. I meant to reach out to people who were not blessed genetically and maybe swayed from trying low carb because all the conventional wisdom says ut calories and exercise more. If you try it, give it a real effort, if it doesn't work, I'll never tell you that you are wrong and you need to do what I did because it worked for me.0 -
I agree that n=1 is the way to go. I have friends who are way thinner than me, eat way way worse and do not exercise. We are different. My brother ate chips, eggs, pizza, drank liters of Pepsi, cookies, snack cakes. Pretty mush all the junk that makes me blow up, and he was thin as a rail. So to the post that claims we cannot escape laws of physics and that we are all the same, couldn't be more wrong.
I don't think any of us is going to win any argument on any of this stuff. Share your experiences and learn. I think though too often the issue is like this:
thin person - "you're overweight because you eat too much and don't exercise, it works for me"
heavy person - "I tried that and it didn't work"
thin person - "Eat less, exercise more"
heavy person - "I tried that too"
thin person - "You are lying, it works for me"
heavy person - "there is something wrong with me"
Gary isn't right on everything, and I am sure he doesn't have the entire thing figured out. I think there is more to it than what we eat. Jimmy Moore is a good example of being a hardcore low carb advocate, yet he has been gaining weight, what's his deal? Something else is at play. But I do believe Gary is closer to the answer than a lot of people. I think at a certain point calories do matter, but not always.
My experience was always low fat watch your calories. I let myself go and a year ago I started eating "clean" again. Lost about 15 pounds and it stopped. I started exercising more, no more weight came off and body fat stayed the same. Cut calories by about 200 a day. Watched everything and kept a log at DailyBurn.com… nothing. Eventually because my calories were so low, and I was exercising so much, I kept getting sick. Sinus infection, sore throat. Like four times last winter. So my body was willing to lower it's immune system rather than burn stored fat. Tell me that is all about calories! I got as low as 900 a day for a couple weeks. And for people who will say I went into starvation mode, maybe I did. But I spent weeks at 1800, 1500, 1200, then 900. Nothing happened.
I was open mined enough to think I didn't know everything and began low carb after reading Gary's books. Well in about four months I lost 35lbs. And this was after I stalled on a low fat calorie restricted diet. In this time my calories were rarely under 3000, and I cut my exercise down to two days a week. And I sit at a desk all day. 70% of my calories came from fat and when I stalled, I took out a bit protein and lost 5 more.
So I stalled again. Started doubting low carbs and insulin hypothesis. So I slowly added a bit more carbs because of T3 suspicions, cut calories, and started exercising four days a week. Well I put 20lbs back on and 8% body fat (some muscle) in about a 4 month span. So I began <30g a day of carbs and so far in the last month I've taken 4% bf back off and 12 of the 20 are gone.
That is my story, could be all BS, no one here knows me. But if any of this rings true, go with your instincts, don't let anyone tell you that they know your body better than you. People on this thread, Gary Taubes, Richard Simmons, anyone. Low carb or High carb. I am willing to admit low fat diets work for people, it's funny how it doesn't go the other way.
One more thing about exercise and performance on LC diet is bad for everyone. It's baloney, at least for me it was. Since I have been eating low carb, anything physical I do, it takes me way way longer to get tired. There is something to be said about having your body be adapted to burning fat. And I used to be one of those guys who said yeah I did low carb, I felt like crap. Well I was doing it wrong. I had to give myself about a month to adjust, and when I did, I felt great.
One tip if you do low carb, supplement with potassium and drink broth. Once your kidneys start dumping sodium, you will feel terrible and weak, got to replace the sodium with broth. This book is a great guide for this:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Art-Science-Carbohydrate-Living/dp/0983490708/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1336703047&sr=8-1
Also if anyone is interested in low carb and performance check out Gary's buddy Peter at http://waroninsulin.com/ he is doing just fine on a ketogenic diet.
So there you have it. I have been watching what I eat since I was 12 and I am now 41. So please don't tell me all I have to do it eat less and exercise more. Although I do believe in exercise, I enjoy it and there are many benefits. But if all I had to do was eat less and exercise more, I would have done it by now!
Also if you want to rip into my story and argue Gary is nuts and low carb diets are worthless, don't bother. I meant to reach out to people who were not blessed genetically and maybe swayed from trying low carb because all the conventional wisdom says ut calories and exercise more. If you try it, give it a real effort, if it doesn't work, I'll never tell you that you are wrong and you need to do what I did because it worked for me.
The only thing I object to is your first paragraph. Its not a matter of escaping the laws of physics. Its a matter of your brother being insensitive to these types of foods and not prone to obesity. My brother was the exact same way for about 30 years. Now he has completely blimped out in his gut. He weighs more than me for the first time in my life! He didn't change anything recently, but his body finally gave out and can't handle the junk food anymore. But when these people are skinny and eating like t his, their body compensates by either increasing their energy expenditure or blunting their appetite for a while. I remember my brother used to eat enormous portions at dinner, but then he wouldn't touch any food for an entire day. His eating patterns were very bizarre to me. And he was extremely sedentary.0 -
Are insulin spikes normal in people?
Like am I weird because I've never had one and have no idea of what this concept even refers to in non-diabetics?
All this crap about so and so does and doesn't make you hungry....
People don't even know what hunger is for the most part. They misinterpret the signal they get from their body that says "I normally eat now" and think that it means that they need to eat now. If you eat one meal a day, at the same time every day, and get adequate nutrition in that one meal, over the course of a few weeks you will completely lose all "hunger" at all other times of the day. Hunger as most of us know it is merely our bodies way of keeping us on schedule, and our bodies want to be on schedule. Strongly.0 -
Insulin spikes are perfectly normal, and necessary to remain alive and function. Insulin is also an appetite suppressant. You eat protein or carbs, and insulin spikes, and you don't feel hungry.Are insulin spikes normal in people?
Like am I weird because I've never had one and have no idea of what this concept even refers to in non-diabetics?
All this crap about so and so does and doesn't make you hungry....
People don't even know what hunger is for the most part. They misinterpret the signal they get from their body that says "I normally eat now" and think that it means that they need to eat now. If you eat one meal a day, at the same time every day, and get adequate nutrition in that one meal, over the course of a few weeks you will completely lose all "hunger" at all other times of the day. Hunger as most of us know it is merely our bodies way of keeping us on schedule, and our bodies want to be on schedule. Strongly.
Insulin gets a bad reputation because one of it's functions is to turn down fat burning (contrary to popular belief, it does NOT prevent fat burning, because the body burns fat 24/7.) However, what people fail to realize, or willfully ignore, is that it's a normal process to burn less fat when you eat, as otherwise, you wouldn't be processing and using the food you've eaten properly.
The other thing people misunderstand, is that insulin is supposed to spike up, and then drop low, in a normal cycle that facilitates normal metabolism. It spikes up in order to transport glucose and other nutrients to fat cells for temporary storage, and also to muscle cells for repair, maintenance, and fuel for muscles to do work. Then when that part of the job is done, insulin levels drop way down, and glucagon takes over. Glucagon is the fat burning hormone, that increases fat burning to maintain blood glucose levels (using the glucose that insulin stored in the fat cells.)
Now some people come along and say you should eat several small meals often in order to minimize insulin spikes. While it's true that insulin will spike less when you eat less food, the constant eating actually causes insulin levels to remain elevated higher than normal (picture a graph running from 0 to 4. Eating large meals may cause insulin to spike up to 4, and then drop back to zero, while eating many small meals might cause insulin to only spike to 3, but only have enough time to drop to 2 before spiking back up again, due to the frequency of meals.)
And then of course, there's the group that insists that insulin must be kept as low as possible, and cut out carbs and attempt to manipulate protein and fat to keep insulin low. That has a very strong catabolic effect on the metabolism, as insulin is the driver of nutrients into muscle, to allow muscle to grow, and by keeping it depressed, you severely handicap the anabolic process.
Note that this applies to a normal metabolism, insulin resistance, diabetes, or PCOS all change the way that insulin is handled by the body.0 -
I get that. But the feel of an insulin spike is about the same as the smell of asbestos. Are you supposed to normally feel insulin spikes? What on earth does it feel like?0
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I get that. But the feel of an insulin spike is about the same as the smell of asbestos. Are you supposed to normally feel insulin spikes? What on earth does it feel like?
I don't imagine you'd feel an insulin spike. You might feel the effects if a spike were to drop your blood sugar really low, but I check my blood sugar regularly, and I can't tell what it will be from how I feel.0 -
No, you don't feel an insulin spike. Without constant blood testing you'll never know what your insulin levels are. And frankly, insulin levels don't really matter all that much, because they always drop low enough to compensate for how high they spike, provided you give them enough time.I get that. But the feel of an insulin spike is about the same as the smell of asbestos. Are you supposed to normally feel insulin spikes? What on earth does it feel like?0 -
No, you don't feel an insulin spike. Without constant blood testing you'll never know what your insulin levels are. And frankly, insulin levels don't really matter all that much, because they always drop low enough to compensate for how high they spike, provided you give them enough time.I get that. But the feel of an insulin spike is about the same as the smell of asbestos. Are you supposed to normally feel insulin spikes? What on earth does it feel like?
Per your insulin posts, we all know how insulin is *supposed* to work, but most low carbers savvy in science will say that the system will usually be disordered in some way such that there is hyperinsulinemia (ie. IR) causing the excess fat accumulation. Not only that, but there's an obvious genetic component because some people can spend their lives eating a high insulinogenic diet or pretty much any diet high in processed foods with no regards for calorie intake and never have any problems.0
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