what to do when cals in vs cals out doesn't work? (long)
jacksonpt
Posts: 10,413 Member
So over the last 4 or so years, I've spent a fair bit of time honing my eating habits and my workouts such that I've figured out what my "sweet spot" is. I know what my body likes, I know what it doesn't. Generally speaking, this is what I've figured out:
1) First and foremost, eat right. This means: cals in vs cals out has to be in a healthy range, AND I need a good balance of fats/carbs/protein - I can't sustain low anything.
2) Lift to change body shape/composition (with sufficient protein). While I don't especially enjoy lifting, I can't argue with the results.
3) Cardio is as much about the mental benefits as it is the physical. It keeps me happy, when I'm happy I'm motivated to keep working at this whole being healthy thing (not to mention the benefits in other aspects of my life).
So that's what I've figured out over the last few years.
I've taken what I've learned and tried to apply it to my girlfriend, who is trying to get into better shape. And it just ain't working. And thus the post.
Some background - she's 33, 5' 4", 140lbs. She's high stress, on birth control but no other meds, TDEE is roughly 2250. She spent the better portion of the last 2 years eating big lunches out and cereal/poptarts for dinner.
If left to her own devices, she'll generally eat 1000-1200cals per day with A LOT of sodium, high in carbs and low in protein. Now, before you jump to the obvious, I've had her up to 1500-1600 cals per day, and nice balance of fat/carb/protein, and more modest sodium intake. She was lifting 2-3x week and doing limited cardio. She's been able to hold that for a week, sometimes up to 10 days. It's hard for her, but she's done it. No change in measurements or weight.
We've tried a high protein low starch diet for 5 days (was sort of a cleanse/"jump start" 5 day program recommended by her nutritionist) trying to shed excess water. Again, no changes.
Her dietary fats are relatively low. Could the low fat intake coupled with the high stress (and subsequent hormone response) be part of all this? Could it just take her body longer to adjust (longer than the 7-10 days) to the new diet?
She's definitely putting in the work and "trying hard enough" to be seeing some results. But when she doesn't she ends up frustrated, which causes emotional eating, etc etc etc.
Typical day for her is something like this:
Homemade breakfast sandwich - whole wheat english muffin, 1 egg, bacon, cheese
Fruit, generally strawberries
Smartones meal (usually one higher in protein), sometimes dinner leftovers (also high in protein)
Fruit, sometimes a protein shake
Dinner is almost always meat-based, so high protein. Usually a side of potatoes.
Small serving of sweets - M&Ms, ice cream, a cup cake, something along those lines. Generally it's pretty close to what an actual serving is... she doesn't binge.
Any suggestions? And I'm as interested (if not more interested) in the WHY of your recommendation than I am the WHAT... i.e. I care more about why you are making your recommendation (why you think it could work) than I am what you are actually recommending. I want to understand the science/logic behind your suggestions.
1) First and foremost, eat right. This means: cals in vs cals out has to be in a healthy range, AND I need a good balance of fats/carbs/protein - I can't sustain low anything.
2) Lift to change body shape/composition (with sufficient protein). While I don't especially enjoy lifting, I can't argue with the results.
3) Cardio is as much about the mental benefits as it is the physical. It keeps me happy, when I'm happy I'm motivated to keep working at this whole being healthy thing (not to mention the benefits in other aspects of my life).
So that's what I've figured out over the last few years.
I've taken what I've learned and tried to apply it to my girlfriend, who is trying to get into better shape. And it just ain't working. And thus the post.
Some background - she's 33, 5' 4", 140lbs. She's high stress, on birth control but no other meds, TDEE is roughly 2250. She spent the better portion of the last 2 years eating big lunches out and cereal/poptarts for dinner.
If left to her own devices, she'll generally eat 1000-1200cals per day with A LOT of sodium, high in carbs and low in protein. Now, before you jump to the obvious, I've had her up to 1500-1600 cals per day, and nice balance of fat/carb/protein, and more modest sodium intake. She was lifting 2-3x week and doing limited cardio. She's been able to hold that for a week, sometimes up to 10 days. It's hard for her, but she's done it. No change in measurements or weight.
We've tried a high protein low starch diet for 5 days (was sort of a cleanse/"jump start" 5 day program recommended by her nutritionist) trying to shed excess water. Again, no changes.
Her dietary fats are relatively low. Could the low fat intake coupled with the high stress (and subsequent hormone response) be part of all this? Could it just take her body longer to adjust (longer than the 7-10 days) to the new diet?
She's definitely putting in the work and "trying hard enough" to be seeing some results. But when she doesn't she ends up frustrated, which causes emotional eating, etc etc etc.
Typical day for her is something like this:
Homemade breakfast sandwich - whole wheat english muffin, 1 egg, bacon, cheese
Fruit, generally strawberries
Smartones meal (usually one higher in protein), sometimes dinner leftovers (also high in protein)
Fruit, sometimes a protein shake
Dinner is almost always meat-based, so high protein. Usually a side of potatoes.
Small serving of sweets - M&Ms, ice cream, a cup cake, something along those lines. Generally it's pretty close to what an actual serving is... she doesn't binge.
Any suggestions? And I'm as interested (if not more interested) in the WHY of your recommendation than I am the WHAT... i.e. I care more about why you are making your recommendation (why you think it could work) than I am what you are actually recommending. I want to understand the science/logic behind your suggestions.
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Replies
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Trade some carbs for fats / oils perhaps - aim for 100g of carbs, 80g of protein and 100g of fats and oils for 1600 calories. Give it 3 weeks, take 25% off them all if no progress.
The protein is there because it's the most important macro and you can't make your own. It'll preserve muscle and organs. 80g at 0.8g/lb and 100lb of lean weight.
The fat's there because you need some of those you can't make yourself and there are fat soluble vitamins you won't get from elsewhere. It is also the major energy supply at 9 cals per gram with no insulin response.
The carbs are culturally popular but little else, 100g will keep her above ketosis and isn't low carb, just less carb. There are no carbohydrates we have to eat. Exercise can be fuelled by fats, we have limited stores of carbs but vast stores of fat energy.0 -
1. Are you 150% sure her TDEE is correct? How do you know this?
2. When was the last time she had her thyroid checked?
3. Is she tracking ALL her food ALL the time?
4. How much is she currently eating per day?
5. What is her exact exercise program?
6. Does she have any other medical issues?0 -
She's been able to hold that for a week, sometimes up to 10 days. It's hard for her, but she's done it. No change in measurements or weight.
I think you answered your own question here!!!
I was about 130lbs 9 months after I had a baby (so all of my "baby" weight was gone), and it took 5 months to go down to 105 pounds. How I did it - tracked every calorie for 5 months, ate 1200-1500 a day depending on my workouts (I never ate the same calorie amount each day) and had one refeed of 2500 calories per week. I did this, strictly, for 5 months solid.
At this time, I was doing more cardio and less weight training. I did cardio 6 days, and 2 days a week of weight training. Now I am an avid believer in more weight training and less cardio, but at the time I lost the initial weight I didn't have the same mentality.
Obviously you know what you're doing, but it sounds like to me she isn't giving it enough time and isn't as dedicated as you are. 10 days is not enough to see any changes, IMO. Tell her to be strict for 3 weeks and she will start seeing results, at least that is the time frame I started seeing results.0 -
Cardio daily!!! Strength 3-4 days/week<-- worked well for me.0
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1. Are you 150% sure her TDEE is correct? How do you know this?
2. When was the last time she had her thyroid checked?
3. Is she tracking ALL her food ALL the time?
4. How much is she currently eating per day?
5. What is her exact exercise program?
6. Does she have any other medical issues?
1) TDEE is as reasonable an estimate as we can get. Calculators/estimators, HRM for workouts, BodyFit Media, etc.
2) She had a full blood workup, including thyroid roughly a year ago - everything came back normal
3) In stretches she is. She'll be good for a week, not see any results, get frustrated and throw in the towel for a week. Then the cycle restarts
4) ~1400 cals
5) compound lifts 2-3 days a week, cardio 2-3 days a week
6) no known medical issues0 -
I think she needs more time. Women's bodies work differently than men's, since we're more prone to build fat than muscle. A woman is rarely going to see results in 10 days.0
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I am sure this is not the case but could she be sabotaging herself? When my hubby tried to help me lose weight, I hated that he was watching everything I did, so when he wasn't looking I would sneak a donut or something horrible. I WANTED to get healthy but I have learned I hate having people hover over me.... so I would cheat and not tell him. I think a part of me wanted to lose weight MY way and show him that he wasn't the "all knowing".
Again, probably not the case but my hubby would have posted the same post because he didn't know what I was really doing when he wasn't looking.
It wasn't until I WANTED it bad enough to not cheat, not sabotage myself, not eat junk and not get frustrated and pig out.... when she wants it bad enough to be super strict and wait for results, nothing will change.0 -
Trade some carbs for fats / oils perhaps - aim for 100g of carbs, 80g of protein and 100g of fats and oils for 1600 calories. Give it 3 weeks, take 25% off them all if no progress.
The protein is there because it's the most important macro and you can't make your own. It'll preserve muscle and organs. 80g at 0.8g/lb and 100lb of lean weight.
The fat's there because you need some of those you can't make yourself and there are fat soluble vitamins you won't get from elsewhere. It is also the major energy supply at 9 cals per gram with no insulin response.
The carbs are culturally popular but little else, 100g will keep her above ketosis and isn't low carb, just less carb. There are no carbohydrates we have to eat. Exercise can be fuelled by fats, we have limited stores of carbs but vast stores of fat energy.
I'd personally say that that would be way too much fat. No more than 62g (35% max) of fat overall, and no more than 17g of saturated fat (10% max) for a 1600 calorie diet.
With regard to insulin, saturated fat has been shown to worsen insulin resistance.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/1enfcr0fm56k1xh2/0 -
1. Are you 150% sure her TDEE is correct? How do you know this?
2. When was the last time she had her thyroid checked?
3. Is she tracking ALL her food ALL the time?
4. How much is she currently eating per day?
5. What is her exact exercise program?
6. Does she have any other medical issues?
1) TDEE is as reasonable an estimate as we can get. Calculators/estimators, HRM for workouts, BodyFit Media, etc.
2) She had a full blood workup, including thyroid roughly a year ago - everything came back normal
3) In stretches she is. She'll be good for a week, not see any results, get frustrated and throw in the towel for a week. Then the cycle restarts
4) ~1400 cals
5) compound lifts 2-3 days a week, cardio 2-3 days a week
6) no known medical issues
Have her start eating 1700 calories per day, and around 90-100g of protein. Get her on a decent lifting routine, something like an upper body/lower body split. Have her do cardio fasted in the morning for 20 mins, and then another 20 mins directly after her lifting days.
Upper / Lower Split:
Mon: Upper Body
Tues: Lower Body
Wed: Rest (cardio optional)
Thur: Upper Body
Fri: Lower Body
Sat and Sun: Both rest days (cardio optional)
Tell her that it's going to take a minimum of 3-4 weeks before she will see results. Hide the scale from her except on Sundays and have her weigh herself on THAT day in the morning on an empty stomach. Once a week.
Re-evaluate in 4 weeks.0 -
1. Are you 150% sure her TDEE is correct? How do you know this?
2. When was the last time she had her thyroid checked?
3. Is she tracking ALL her food ALL the time?
4. How much is she currently eating per day?
5. What is her exact exercise program?
6. Does she have any other medical issues?
1) TDEE is as reasonable an estimate as we can get. Calculators/estimators, HRM for workouts, BodyFit Media, etc.
2) She had a full blood workup, including thyroid roughly a year ago - everything came back normal
3) In stretches she is. She'll be good for a week, not see any results, get frustrated and throw in the towel for a week. Then the cycle restarts
4) ~1400 cals
5) compound lifts 2-3 days a week, cardio 2-3 days a week
6) no known medical issues
I highlighted what stuck out to me right away. She needs to stick with it for some time to see results.0 -
Man I'm really glad I don't share this info with my boyfriend...
If calories in/calories out isn't working, then she is probably overestimating how many calories she needs. Women really don't need a lot of extra calories to lift weights. How do you estimate her TDEE? Did she have her metabolism tested?
I'm 5'7" and 140, if I consumed (net) 1600 calories a day I would gain weight. And as a side note - Sleep is critical. I have a lot of trouble with eating and stress when I'm not sleeping. Also, you say that when she doesn't see results, she goes back to "emotional eating" but if left to her own devices she eats only 1000-1200 calories a day and doesn't binge. I'm not really sure what to make of these statements. Do you think her emotional eating is sabotaging her?
If she's only able to maintain a routine for 7-10 days then I'm not really surprised that she isn't seeing results yet. It's frustrating when results don't happen within a week but when you're lifting heavy weights and you're not overweight (140 is not overweight for 5'3"), results take more patience. Especially for women.0 -
From what I understand, every time you two have tried something new you've only stuck with it for 5-10 days. That could be your problem! Your girlfriend is barely overweight so she's not going to get those 7lb first-week losses bigger people get.
I've been here a long time, and while my results aren't spectacular I've stuck with it. Some of my MFP friends have undergone the most stunning transformations on the entire of MFP and could honestly be fitness models. What do we all have in common? We've done what we enjoy, not necessarily what's "right".
Our macros are up the creek, we eat pizza and drink wine, we've been cardio queens who lifted nothing heavier than a pint glass and still lost weight just by sticking to MFP's recommended calorie deficit. Or we've switched to heavy lifting and ate far more calories than the workout burns. Two of my friends with the tiniest waists, flattest abs and sexiest muscles you've seen eat 2,000 calories a day.
The point I'm trying to make yes it's very worthy that you're trying to help your girlfriend with the most healthy diet and exercise programme proven to get the best results, but if it's not what suits her it will never get her anywhere. If she wants to stick with her big lunches and breakfast for dinner, let her, but just track it (and weigh/measure it!) and either eat a bit less or exercise more doing something she enjoys, which might be dancing or swimming rather than weight lifting. I'm speaking as someone who'd burn 1,600 extra calories running and eat all of them back!
First it might be worth getting her to track on here without changing anything just to get an accurate idea of exact consumption and expenditure. Then just change one thing. Make it the path of least resistance, and stick with it. Then and only then look to change anything else.
Good luck! :flowerforyou:0 -
Birth control and stress can both affect weight loss. Birth control due to the fact that it manipulates hormones, and stress due to cortisol. High stress means high cortisol, high cortisol means no weight loss.0
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Give it some time...with her being 140 lbs it could be an ideal weight for her frame (don't go by BMI...it can be way off depending on her frame size and how the weight is carried on your body) so it could be she won't see much on the scale...but by eating the right foods and doing strength training in addition to cardio she may start to see a big difference in her body composition. For her it may take a few months to see maybe a 5lb difference on the scale, but if she keeps up the healthy eating and exercise those 5 lbs might equate to a couple sizes down...0
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I forgot to mention one other thing.
You need to get her mind right. It doesn't sound like she's in it 100%. Changes don't come in 1 or 2 weeks. It takes months even years for some to achieve the results they are looking for.0 -
I forgot to mention one other thing.
You need to get her mind right. It doesn't sound like she's in it 100%. Changes don't come in 1 or 2 weeks. It takes months even years for some to achieve the results they are looking for.
Yea, the mental battle is definitely the hardest part of all this for her.0 -
Birth control and stress can both affect weight loss. Birth control due to the fact that it manipulates hormones, and stress due to cortisol. High stress means high cortisol, high cortisol means no weight loss.
Yes, her nutritionist told us the same thing... but she can't be the only woman with stress issues. How do other people overcome it?0 -
I am 5'3 and 137 pounds. It took me over a month of sustained exercise and portion control before I dropped more than a pound and kept it off (and I'm still only at 2 pounds sustained.) I am surprised that her measurements aren't changing though because that is where I saw the quickest difference.
I saw the most rapid change when I ramped up my weightlifting sessions to 40+ minutes rather than just 20-35; for some reason the extra 5 minutes makes a big difference. I do cardio as part of my weightlifting (circuit training) which I do at least 3 days per week. I added an additional 30 minutes of cardio two days per week. I rest on Saturday and Sunday. I also do one cheat day per week which is usually Saturday.
*I have lost almost 10 inches across my measurements in 3 weeks.0 -
The stress could definitely be hindering weight loss. I'd suggest adding in some cardio exercise as it's a great stress reliever and calorie burner.0
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Those meals you described sound like they could be adding up to more calories than you think. also, when I was around her weight (same height) my maintenance was about 1650, so she could have too small of a deficit and just be losing extremely slowly.
for instance, a cupcake can easily be 300+ calories. i think youre underestimating what she's eating0 -
Cardio, particularly running outdoors.. And The Pill doesn't cause weight gain.Yes, her nutritionist told us the same thing... but she can't be the only woman with stress issues. How do other people overcome it?
http://www.nhs.uk/news/2011/06June/Pages/the-pill-and-weight-gain.aspx0 -
Does she actually want to lose weight or does she feel the pressure to do so because you've got in shape or that you want her to?Yea, the mental battle is definitely the hardest part of all this for her.0 -
My body tends to like less carbs... so when I eat more SmartOnes, I do worse.
Try eating tuna/chicken flakes on 2-3 wheat crackers (ryvita, melba, etc..) with veggies and fruit for lunch
Try a homemade vegetable soup
Try having yogurt and fruit for breakfast
I eat more protein now, with loads of veggies for my dinners (no sides lately)...
Good luck to the both of you!0 -
Although you state that she has no known medical issues, she may want to go and have her thyroid checked. One of the main symptoms is the inability to lose weight, along with fatigue, hair loss/thinning, outer 1/3 of eyebrows are sparse or missing, cold most of the time when others are comfortable, depression-like symptoms, brain fog.... there is an entire list of symptoms. If she is eating well, and working out and is not seeing any results, I would look into this as a possilbe cause.0
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She's been able to hold that for a week, sometimes up to 10 days. It's hard for her, but she's done it. No change in measurements or weight.
I think you answered your own question here!!!
I was about 130lbs 9 months after I had a baby (so all of my "baby" weight was gone), and it took 5 months to go down to 105 pounds. How I did it - tracked every calorie for 5 months, ate 1200-1500 a day depending on my workouts (I never ate the same calorie amount each day) and had one refeed of 2500 calories per week. I did this, strictly, for 5 months solid.
At this time, I was doing more cardio and less weight training. I did cardio 6 days, and 2 days a week of weight training. Now I am an avid believer in more weight training and less cardio, but at the time I lost the initial weight I didn't have the same mentality.
Obviously you know what you're doing, but it sounds like to me she isn't giving it enough time and isn't as dedicated as you are. 10 days is not enough to see any changes, IMO. Tell her to be strict for 3 weeks and she will start seeing results, at least that is the time frame I started seeing results.
This.
If she is 5'4 and 140lbs, she doesnt have much to lose.
If TDEE is 2250, and she has been eating 1500, thats a 750cal / 1.5lb deficit which may be too much based on what she has to lose.
Try a smaller deficit for 0.5-1lb, and she needs to give it time, loss when you get near to goal is generally a lot slower, 0.5 a week is usually pretty good going, but people get frustrated, want to lose 2-3 a week and then give up!0 -
Hi. I'm new on here and was wondering what you meant when you said "2500 calorie refeed".
I have lost about 8 lbs, but I am exhausted and weak all the time even though I am eating 1200-1500 calories a day.
Yesterday I felt so sick. I ate an extra 200 calories in the evening just because I felt so badly.
Thanks for the info.0 -
5'4 and 140 is a healthy weight for a 33yo female. I would focus on a healthier lifestyle than losing weight. Doing exercise activities together with you to make it fun. But maybe 140 is her optimal weight.0
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up water to a minimum of half her weight in ounces. Enter her stats into mfp with a one pound per week loss with a sedentry lifestyle, split her carb/protein/fat ratio to 40/40/20. eat ALL of her exercise calories. For me this can sometimes be over 2000 calories a day. I lift heavy 20 to 30 minutes 5 days a week, I do 45 to 90 minutes of cardio 6 days a week. Get her some high quality protein and glucosamine to have right after her workout and add a multivitamin and omega-3s. I have trouble losing and still do but if I eat CLEAN, and stick to my workout schedule the weight comes off. Eating CLEAN is a huge factor though.0
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If she is not ready mentally, there is nothing that will help. I have spent years "dieting and trying to get in shape" but if I didn't see a result right away then like her, I was throwing in the towel. I have had the light switched on and realized that I need to get healthy and if that means that the scale doesn' t move then so be it. But I will look HOT! LOL.
Cardio can be a stress reliever. Maybe she needs to do boxing or something like that to get that stress out. Zumba away the stress by having fun. If she isn't getting in shape and healthy for herself and isn't ready. Nothing can make her.0 -
1. What is her goal? Lose inches? Lose pounds? Accomplish a particular exercise/race?
2. How much sleep does she get per night?
3. Was this her idea or yours?
4. Is she an emotional eater?
5. What is her history in regards to eating healthy and exercise? Is this all completely new to her or has she done this before?
I ask all of these questions because she is on the high end of healthy weight, so my guess she is only wanting to lose 10-20 lbs. That means her weight loss will be slower--think months, not days. She may want to focus on losing inches and fitting into a specific size, which means she needs to stop using the scale as a measure of success.
Sleep is one of the biggest factors of stalled weight loss for me and stress can interrupt my sleep. If I don't get at least 7 hours per night every night, I don't lose weight.
Getting in fit and healthy had to be my idea in order for it to work. I had to want it bad enough because it's a lot of hard work. Having a support network is important, but someone telling me I had to do it would have never worked for me.
If she is an emotional eater she may be sabotaging when she's not tracking her food. I highly recommend the book 'How to Eat What You Love and Love What You Eat'. It really helped me break the emotional cycle of eating.
If eating healthy and dedicated exercise is new to her, it's going to take time to learn, time to enjoy it, and time to create the habit. A few days is not enough. She has to want this to be a new lifestyle, not a short term way to reach a specific weight.
The things that work for me: more sleep, eating more (I only eat about 300 calories below my TDEE since I only have maybe 10 lbs to lose), drinking nearly 150 oz of water a day, weight training and HIIT cardio (no more steady state 30-40 min for me!) 5 days a week, plus a day of pilates and one rest day.0
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