what to do when cals in vs cals out doesn't work? (long)

BeingAwesome247

"inconsistent effort, inconsistent results"

She doesn't have much to lose for her height and it's going to be a battle. If she's looking at it like a "diet" and not a change completely, she's going to be resistent.

Birth Control is a biggie
For stress - yoga, running, cycling (things you already do so maybe include her)
Also, check out Yogi organic tea...they have some great calming teas

She has to find something SHE likes. My sister is a beach body fan. That works for HER.
I'm a Jillian Fan. She keeps me engaged.

Stick to the basics...I started back sliding because I was getting overwhelmed with numbers.
Lean meats, low fat dairy, load up on veggies & fruit, whole grains

Hide the scale....if the scale is being counter productive, HIDE IT!!

bcattoes

Yes, her nutritionist told us the same thing... but she can't be the only woman with stress issues. How do other people overcome it?

Cardio and yoga. Taking time for yourself, even if it's just a few min a day. Take a bubble bath, meditate, get a massage.

UsedToBeHusky

The only recommendation I can make, and I'm no scientist, is to consider trying a different form of birth control. You didn't specify what she is using, but many of them have side effects that affect your water balance or appetite. If that wasn't logical or scientific enough for you, well sorry. I tried.

TiffL22

Have her start eating 1700 calories per day, and around 90-100g of protein. Get her on a decent lifting routine, something like an upper body/lower body split. Have her do cardio fasted in the morning for 20 mins, and then another 20 mins directly after her lifting days.

Upper / Lower Split:
Mon: Upper Body
Tues: Lower Body
Wed: Rest (cardio optional)
Thur: Upper Body
Fri: Lower Body
Sat and Sun: Both rest days (cardio optional)

Tell her that it's going to take a minimum of 3-4 weeks before she will see results. Hide the scale from her except on Sundays and have her weigh herself on THAT day in the morning on an empty stomach. Once a week.

Re-evaluate in 4 weeks.

I think this sounds like a good approach. I would also suggest her taking her measurements because--I've noticed personally--not seeing the loss on the scale can be a bummer, but it can be made up for if you see the change in measurements.

I would do chest, natural waist, belly button, hips, thighs, arms, calves. Even 1/4 of an inch loss can be really exciting, especially when it sounds like she doesn't have much to lose.

jacksonpt

1. What is her goal? Lose inches? Lose pounds? Accomplish a particular exercise/race?
2. How much sleep does she get per night?
3. Was this her idea or yours?
4. Is she an emotional eater?
5. What is her history in regards to eating healthy and exercise? Is this all completely new to her or has she done this before?

1) Inches. She's very uncomfortable with her weigh distribution (pear shaped)
2) 7-8 hours, generally
3) hers
4) can be, but not generally
5) She's done it before, but has some obsessive tendencies (i.e. takes spray butter with her to restaurants). We are trying to make sure she doesn't get carried away.

jacksonpt

1. Are you 150% sure her TDEE is correct? How do you know this?
2. When was the last time she had her thyroid checked?
3. Is she tracking ALL her food ALL the time?
4. How much is she currently eating per day?
5. What is her exact exercise program?
6. Does she have any other medical issues?

1) TDEE is as reasonable an estimate as we can get. Calculators/estimators, HRM for workouts, BodyFit Media, etc.
2) She had a full blood workup, including thyroid roughly a year ago - everything came back normal
3) In stretches she is. She'll be good for a week, not see any results, get frustrated and throw in the towel for a week. Then the cycle restarts
4) ~1400 cals
5) compound lifts 2-3 days a week, cardio 2-3 days a week
6) no known medical issues

Have her start eating 1700 calories per day, and around 90-100g of protein. Get her on a decent lifting routine, something like an upper body/lower body split. Have her do cardio fasted in the morning for 20 mins, and then another 20 mins directly after her lifting days.

Upper / Lower Split:
Mon: Upper Body
Tues: Lower Body
Wed: Rest (cardio optional)
Thur: Upper Body
Fri: Lower Body
Sat and Sun: Both rest days (cardio optional)

Tell her that it's going to take a minimum of 3-4 weeks before she will see results. Hide the scale from her except on Sundays and have her weigh herself on THAT day in the morning on an empty stomach. Once a week.

Re-evaluate in 4 weeks.

Why the upper/lower split over compound lifts? I've had her doing stronglifts with me and she's getting the hang of it.

AllTehBeers

She's been able to hold that for a week, sometimes up to 10 days. It's hard for her, but she's done it. No change in measurements or weight.

I think you answered your own question here!!!

I was about 130lbs 9 months after I had a baby (so all of my "baby" weight was gone), and it took 5 months to go down to 105 pounds. How I did it - tracked every calorie for 5 months, ate 1200-1500 a day depending on my workouts (I never ate the same calorie amount each day) and had one refeed of 2500 calories per week. I did this, strictly, for 5 months solid.

At this time, I was doing more cardio and less weight training. I did cardio 6 days, and 2 days a week of weight training. Now I am an avid believer in more weight training and less cardio, but at the time I lost the initial weight I didn't have the same mentality.

Obviously you know what you're doing, but it sounds like to me she isn't giving it enough time and isn't as dedicated as you are. 10 days is not enough to see any changes, IMO. Tell her to be strict for 3 weeks and she will start seeing results, at least that is the time frame I started seeing results.

This. If she is at a lower weight to begin with, its going to take A LOT longer to see results then someone with more to lose. I would say that she needs to stick with the plan at least 3 weeks before she'll very noticable changes.

rockinright

At 5'4 and 140, she's not THAT overweight. What I mean is, the more overweight you are, the easier it is to lose at least at first. When you are starting at 100 lbs overweight, the weight melts off a lot faster than when you start at 20 lbs overweight.

Other than my little $0.02, I think good advice has been given here from what I can see.

doda14

I'm struggling too in a similar fashion to your GF, though I've pushed through 21 days, seeing no number changes, but feeling really great. I really appreciate your comment (BarryH) and think it's right on the money. I've got a wonderful life and want to enjoy it!

therealangd

It sounds to me like she just isn't interested. When she is truly ready to get healthy, she will last more than the 5 to 10 days. You can't force her to lose weight. However, I'd also not engage her either when she starts complaining about it.

meerkat70

Did she ask you to post this?

stubbysticks

Did she ask you to post this?

^^^^
This.

I get that you really do have her best interests in mind & that she has expressed desire & demonstrated effort to improve her fitness. It seems odd that you are the one troubleshooting here though.

she can't be the only woman with stress issues. How do other people overcome it?

People overcome stress by changing something. People are motivated to change something when the fear of things staying the same outweighs the fear of change. People don't need to change anything if they have an enabler willing to drive & take all responsibility for establishing the food & exercise program.

I learned the most about nutrition & fitness when I took the initiative to get out there myself & did research & asked questions & talked to people. If my husband was doing all that for me, at some level I would interpret that to mean he didn't believe I was capable of doing it myself. Rather than fight it, I might just go along knowing it's something I need to do anyway...but my heart wouldn't be in it.

And if you're doing all this for her, how is she supposed to take credit for her own success?

poptastic

As others have said, it sounds like she's not sticking with it long enough, if she doesn't have a lot to lose then she will need to be really strict. Things like eating a portion of a sweet treat last thing at night make me think that maybe she's not sticking with it as much as you think - this sounds a lot like me when I started out, and got discouraged through not seeing results. You just have to know that long enough with a calorie defecit, keeping yourself healthy through exercise and eating the right things, and you will see results eventually! But also, there is only a limited amount you can do to change your body shape - if your body stores its extra fat on your *kitten*, that's never gonna change!

Quasita

I think one of the primary things you could do to benefit both her AND your relationship is to electively remove yourself as her trainer, and let her work with the professionals she wants to work with, when she's ready to do so.

I personally HATE it when someone that I want to have love me for who I am takes an active role in monitoring and guiding my diet and fitness. it's not about whether or not they know what they are talking about. It's about causing undue stress that will sabotage your goals because you'll go back and forth between feeling like you are a failure in their eyes, and wondering why they want you to change so badly.

This sounds like the relationship from hell to me and I'm not surprised in the least that she is frustrated, stressed, and ready to give up often.

If she has a nutritionist, why not defer to them, and encourage her to do what feels right and possibly work with a trainer at the gym instead of you? It could relieve a lot of underlying stress, and allow her to take accountability without putting pressure on your relationship.

Hannah_PRprincess13

Honestly, she is not overweight to me. I'm 5'2 and I WISH I WAS 140 pounds. That's just my opinion.

cbeutler

Have her get checked for food intolerance, I have a friend that is lactose intolerant, and a cousin that is gluten intolerant. Try as they might no results when they aren't eating what is right for their bodies.

ilovedeadlifts

Tell her that it's going to take a minimum of 3-4 weeks before she will see results. Hide the scale from her except on Sundays and have her weigh herself on THAT day in the morning on an empty stomach. Once a week.

Re-evaluate in 4 weeks.

this.
If she's new to lifting and just lifts for a week, chances are the scale won't move because of water retention.
I never see results from week to week. I usually go back and re-evaluate after 3-4 months of doing something to see how it's coming along.
patience.

SteveTries

48 replies and only 1 of them dared to suggest that maybe cals in -vs- cals out wasn't in fact broken, but that it had not been realised?

So I'll be devils advocate then.

The TDEE you worked out is just an estimate based on a formula derived from tests on a sample population then applied to an average person. Perhaps it's just not applicable to your significant other and the root cause is that calories in is equalling calories out. I realise it's almost heretic to suggest on these boards that people actually less, but I'll do it.

Your own experience is much like my own. I experimented, I observed, I adjusted. Repeatedly. I'd advocate the same here. Ignore the theoretical TDEE, try caloric reduction, observe and respond. If she is being chronically underfed you'll know pretty quick and can adjust upward.

nikkilucero23

What did you mean by 'refeed'?

Quasita

What did you mean by 'refeed'?

Refeed is one of those terms that is mistakenly used in this context. It's technically a medical practice used to rehabilitate starving and underfed individuals.

In this context, it means having a day where you eat more than your normal calorie deficit to "shock the body" so to speak... However, if you have a history of eating disorders or thyroid issues, it is best to consult a physician or dietary consultant before incorporating a day where you say, double your calories, because serious consequences can occur for people that have had metabolic issues in the past.

tigersword

And to add, 'refeeds' actually accomplish nothing from a biological standpoint. They are purely for psychological reasons.

Quasita

And to add, 'refeeds' actually accomplish nothing from a biological standpoint. They are purely for psychological reasons.

Thank you! "Refeed" as stated on MFP is just a way of excusing a glutton day... Not to say that it's not a good thing to do occasionally, for psych reasons, but metabolism doesn't respond that quickly... Might surge your insulin levels but not change much overall.

A technical, medical refeed is 100-200 increase every 1-2 days until reaching appropriate intake level for the individual, starting from 1200 calories. That's the one thing that gets me about calorie counting on here, people putting themselves less than 1200 when that's the minimum they start a starvation rehab patient on... ANyway, I've ranted a lot about that already lol!

SueInAz

I'm about 5'3", 46 years old and pear-shaped and I made the decision to lose weight when I hit 140 pounds last year. The kicker here is, I made that decision for myself. While I thought I wanted to lose the weight for quite awhile before, and made feeble attempts at it, it wasn't until I really committed myself that I saw any success. Keep this in mind. If your girlfriend doesn't really and truly want this, she isn't going to succeed.

As you're learning, and I already know, "calories in/calories out" simply doesn't work for everyone. I started out on a low carb diet last year because I've had success with that approach in the past. I dropped 5 pounds pretty quickly. I then started the Couch to 5K plan as my exercise and dropped another 7 until I hit 128 in early May. My husband was giving me grief about my diet so I switched back to a more balanced approach (in other words, higher carb, lower fat). Within two weeks I'd put 4 pounds back on and I spent the next three months losing and gaining back a couple of pounds. I could never get below 131. In the meantime, I was upping my running distance until I was running 4-5 miles several days per week. I was seeing a very moderate loss of inches but the scale wasn't budging.

In August, I got frustrated with the lack of scale movement and switched back to eating low carb. This time I modified my approach a bit to make my home life easier. I ate very few carbs for breakfast and lunch and ate fairly "normally" at dinner, keeping my overall carb intake to around 70-90 grams per day. I avoided sugar and "white" carbs almost entirely getting the vast majority of my carbs from whole grains and vegetables. This, coupled with a calorie intake of 1350, I started to immediately see some small losses. By October, I was down to 123 pounds and a size 4 in pants. I've mostly maintained my weight loss since then although a back injury and the flu back to back sidelined my running for the last month, so I've put a few pounds back on. Since I've learned how my body works, you can bet I'll be cutting carbs again.

SteveTries

The term refeed has been adopted/*kitten* into dieting parlance from its original clinical meaning.

But its absolutely not true to suggest it is absent value. A day spent at or above TDEE is more than an excuse for gluttony. It's a powerful tool for retaining focus and being strict the other 6 days. It's something that can absolutely help sustain a long term plan.

There is debate about whether it also helps to reduce metabolic slowdown. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. That's a potential second order benefit to my mind.

amandamotley

Birth control and stress can both affect weight loss. Birth control due to the fact that it manipulates hormones, and stress due to cortisol. High stress means high cortisol, high cortisol means no weight loss.

Yes, her nutritionist told us the same thing... but she can't be the only woman with stress issues. How do other people overcome it?

I'm a stressed disaster right now, and there is no question that it's making me hold on to some fluff around the belly. Of course there's no magic bullet, but a few things that really help me: making time for a walk with my bf on the weekends, cardio (I have ZERO time right now, so this is a feat, but totally worth it for the endorphins), getting enough sleep, and believe it or not, logging my intake on MFP. Anything that gives me a sense of control while things are insane. Is she into cooking and healthy eating, or does she just tolerate it? If there's time, a meal plan for the week and a big grocery shop help me feel like I have the week set up right, but I might just be a weirdo.

wackyfunster

Have her get her thyroid function checked. If that is OK, have her start doing IF daily. Stick with the big compound lifts, but make sure the volume isn't too much for her on a caloric deficit (any serious fatigue is a good indicator of too much volume). I normally recommend 2 compound movements, 3 working sets reverse pyramid style for people on a serious caloric deficit... that seems to be pretty well tolerated by most people.

Make sure she is getting enough vitamin C (to help with cortisol levels from stress... the IF will help as well) and protein.

Lower body fat (hips and thighs in particular) is EXTREMELY hard for women to lose. Once she is <20% body fat, you may want to have her try something like LeanGains, and supplement alpha-yohimbine prior to fasted workout, which will help a lot.

wackyfunster

And to add, 'refeeds' actually accomplish nothing from a biological standpoint. They are purely for psychological reasons.

It will actually boost leptin levels substantially, which is probably of less value to women (whose leptin levels are already several times higher than men's), but can make a big difference for men who have been on a caloric/carb deficit for a while, and/or are at very low body fat. OTOH a carb-refeed coupled with high fat intake can erase any progress very quickly. I think there is definitely value there, in addition to the psychological aspect. Timing (should be after weight training) and macro content (should be low-fat) are important though.

Just my 2c.

Quasita

The term refeed has been adopted/*kitten* into dieting parlance from its original clinical meaning.

But its absolutely not true to suggest it is absent value. A day spent at or above TDEE is more than an excuse for gluttony. It's a powerful tool for retaining focus and being strict the other 6 days. It's something that can absolutely help sustain a long term plan.

There is debate about whether it also helps to reduce metabolic slowdown. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. That's a potential second order benefit to my mind.

I don't think anyone said it was absent of value. All that was stated was that in the dieting world, the pros of the practice are usually more on the psychological standpoint, which is just another way of saying exactly what you did...

Quasita

And to add, 'refeeds' actually accomplish nothing from a biological standpoint. They are purely for psychological reasons.

It will actually boost leptin levels substantially, which is probably of less value to women (whose leptin levels are already several times higher than men's), but can make a big difference for men who have been on a caloric/carb deficit for a while, and/or are at very low body fat. OTOH a carb-refeed coupled with high fat intake can erase any progress very quickly. I think there is definitely value there, in addition to the psychological aspect. Timing (should be after weight training) and macro content (should be low-fat) are important though.

Just my 2c.

Only thing is, there isn't much research that would support it as a long term appetite suppressing solution. Eating excessive amounts of food will of course raise leptin, because you are theorectically going to be eating past the point of satiation. However, the hormone will be processed out of the system relatively quickly, especially in individuals with lesser body fat (and therefore less room to store excess)

I always say to each their own, I just have an issue with how many terms get crossed in the dieting world when they originated in other realms of science.. Well, sort of "other" just meaning here on MFP, you could regard it as a pop-diet, whereas the origins of the terms were for clinical conditions.

meerkat70

I don't suppose that there's any chance of getting people to recognise that talking about this woman in the third person as if she were a pet project, and object to be poked and prodded is a teensy bit inappropriate?

Nah. Let's just carry on talking about her, and what's best for her, and what she might be thinking and feeling.... in her absence.