Opinions needed on muscle building while lowering body fat

welloiledmachine

My bmr is 1850 cals it says....and maintance is 2450....My goal is set to 2lbs a week loss and it has me at 1490 cals a day and some days i go over it some i dont depends on how hungry i am.

This close to your goal you should be set at 0.5lbs a week to 1lb a week. 1500 calories isn't enough for a man your size. I'm aiming for around 2000 and I'm a 160lb female.

I agree. The closer you get to your goal the harder it is to lose and .5 to 1 lb a week is ideal. This way you'll be able to eat more calories.

SilkyHotspur

Gaining muscle = calorie surplus

Losing fat = calorie deficit

Doing both at the same time = impossible unless genetic freak or new to training as the body adjusts.

Let the bro science begin.

TBH I'd rather listen to the likes of Layne Norton to some internet random who makes a single post and doesn't back anything up? I'll happily discuss it with you but flames like that with no info from yourself hardly makes for an informative debate!

MP: You have often said that it is not impossible but very counterproductive to build muscle and burn fat at the same time. How do you suggest to our begin ners for how to get a totally conditioned physique such as yourself.

LN: Well I think certain people can build muscle and burn fat at the same time and they general fall into 3 groups: 1) beginners 2) very obese people and 3) those using steroids or illicit lipolytics or a combination of any 3 of those. But if a person has been training hard for a few years and is very good with their nutrition and aren’t 35% bodyfat, they aren’t going to burn fat and build muscle at the same time most likely. It would be EXTREMELY unlikely to happen.

Wow....just wow....3500 calories = 1lb, create a calorie deficit, you lose weight, ie.....to add anything...Fat or Muscle, you must increase calories....Body Builders call it bulking...they bulk, adding both Muscle, and Fat ....you can't add just Muscle exclusively, they try to add proportionally more Muscle than Fat, then when they "cut", they try to keep as much muscle as possible, why maximizing fat loss....over time of this teeter-totter action, you get lean...big muscles.

Fat is stored energy waiting to be used...if you are obese and are losing weight and cutting calories....you have a calorie deficit, and your build will take from your Fat reserves to make up the difference and provide your muscles with what it needs.

So yes, you are eating less, and yes you do have a calorie (energy) deficit, but as you have energy stored (Fat), you have what you need to build muscle.

FYI...just because the guy is Gaspari sponsored (i use Cellucor), don't discount the logic or science. Far too many people assume Body Builders are nothing but juice taking muscle heads, however, they are the masters at both building muscle....and at cutting fat.

mel128

Bump

Wonderob

Everyone (termed loosely) on here says you can't build muscle while losing fat.

Though I've seen contestants on The Biggest Loser do it all the time, so I believe it is possible.

Just to clarify - they don't!

The winning contestents on the biggest loser average at 350 lbs (men) and are morbidly obese at between 40% - 50% fat

That means they have 50% - 60% lean muscle mass - on average 190lbs of muscle

Given that they nearly all end up weighing less than 190lbs, I think you can see that they don't actually build any muscle at all! It just appears that way as they reveal their muscles as they strip of the fat!

Matt_Wild

There is a KIND OF WAY to lose fat and build muscle. Its carb cycling.

But that isn't gaining muscle and losing fat at the same time. Its mini cycles of protein/fats/carbs where one manipulates the energy going into and out of the body.

There is typically 2-4 days of low carbs (so fat burning) and then 1-2 medium carb days and 1-2 high carb days and then back to low carb days. EVEN at this point when one is losing fat it is in the 2-4 day low carb period and then the metabolism is boosted back up when the carbs are re-introduced. Make no mistake, its not both being achieved at the SAME time.

For many people they find this doesn't actually work very well and the muscular gain is very slow and counter productive over the more standard bulking cycles that people follow.

LesterBlackstone

There is a KIND OF WAY to lose fat and build muscle. Its carb cycling.

A more accurate description would be carb/calorie cycling. If the carbs are replaced with another macro, you get no deficit. (I know you're aware of this, just wanted to point it out for others).

But that isn't gaining muscle and losing fat at the same time. Its mini cycles of protein/fats/carbs where one manipulates the energy going into and out of the body.

There is typically 2-4 days of low carbs (so fat burning) and then 1-2 medium carb days and 1-2 high carb days and then back to low carb days. EVEN at this point when one is losing fat it is in the 2-4 day low carb period and then the metabolism is boosted back up when the carbs are re-introduced. Make no mistake, its not both being achieved at the SAME time.

Truth. Additionally, the rate of muscle gain/fat loss are not even close to being equivalent. You're more likely to see a very small increase in muscle in the face of a much larger fat loss. (ie someone who loses 10lbs of fat might see a 1 or 2 lb gain in lean mass).

For many people they find this doesn't actually work very well and the muscular gain is very slow and counter productive over the more standard bulking cycles that people follow.

Agreed.

SilkyHotspur

For me, gaining muslce has always been difficult. I'm the classic, eat anything they want and don't gain weight. The truth is, I can eat anything I want, because I just don't eat that much. Last January I was 167lb, by the end of December through 2x per day weight gain shakes, I reached 188lb and 18%, while weight lifting....since January, I have cut the shakes, and worked on cutting fat, now at 12.5% and 177lbs. If I drop too low, i increase the calorie intake with more protein shakes, I find it physically very difficult to simply eat a lot of food, as I just don't get hungry. I think when October rolls around, i'll work on increasing calories again for 3 months, then work to cut back, goal is to stay 180 - 185lbs, however that will be difficult, as i don't typically consume that many calories to sustain that much mass.

Matt_Wild

Lots of calorie dense foods and proteins for me to gain mass.

I eat 50-60oz of meat a day, plus whey and fats (evoo, flax, peanut butter, almond butter etc) as I cut and bulk by adding in a couple of cups of rice per meal.

jerzypeach

Check out Tom Venuto. He is a natural bodybuilder who has developed a program called The Holy Grail that addresses this exact issue. He has all the science and peer reviewed citations as well as his own experience as a bodybuilder.

Wonderob

Check out Tom Venuto. He is a natural bodybuilder who has developed a program called The Holy Grail that addresses this exact issue. He has all the science and peer reviewed citations as well as his own experience as a bodybuilder.

Interesting but in all honesty I would prefer to listen to some of the guys on here who clearly know their stuff (picture proof) and have no other agenda other than to educate the likes of myself.

I instantly turn sceptical when I see somewhere on the site 'Add to cart'

SilkyHotspur

Lots of calorie dense foods and proteins for me to gain mass.

I eat 50-60oz of meat a day, plus whey and fats (evoo, flax, peanut butter, almond butter etc) as I cut and bulk by adding in a couple of cups of rice per meal.

I think this fall, i'll be looking for more "clean" gains... EVOO is always in, as is Flax in the morning, Natural PB,.....

What I've come to love lately is the new shake from Nature's Bounty: Vitamin Shake Mix, taste's like bittersweet dark chocolate. Has a full slate of vitamins, flax, omega-3's, probiotic and digestive enzymes, 15gms protein, amino's..120cals per. i'll have this and maybe mix in some PB and 1/2 a Banana for a "Hershey Smoothie" (as i call it). I know everyone wants to make their own smoothie....just don't have time in the mornings.
http://www.naturesbounty.com/product/050879

SilkyHotspur

Check out Tom Venuto. He is a natural bodybuilder who has developed a program called The Holy Grail that addresses this exact issue. He has all the science and peer reviewed citations as well as his own experience as a bodybuilder.

Interesting but in all honesty I would prefer to listen to some of the guys on here who clearly know their stuff (picture proof) and have no other agenda other than to educate the likes of myself.

I instantly turn sceptical when I see somewhere on the site 'Add to cart'

Agreed, however, if someone has put a lot of time effort and research into something and they want to be paid in return, i don't see anything wrong with it. I paid for Eat, Stop, Eat...not because I have any "weight' to lose, but as I wanted to know the theories and confirm things I've always thought. It was an excellent read. There is no "plan", for Eat, Stop, Eat,....other than just stop eating to much damn food!

Wonderob

Check out Tom Venuto. He is a natural bodybuilder who has developed a program called The Holy Grail that addresses this exact issue. He has all the science and peer reviewed citations as well as his own experience as a bodybuilder.

Interesting but in all honesty I would prefer to listen to some of the guys on here who clearly know their stuff (picture proof) and have no other agenda other than to educate the likes of myself.

I instantly turn sceptical when I see somewhere on the site 'Add to cart'

Agreed, however, if someone has put a lot of time effort and research into something and they want to be paid in return, i don't see anything wrong with it. I paid for Eat, Stop, Eat...not because I have any "weight' to lose, but as I wanted to know the theories and confirm things I've always thought. It was an excellent read. There is no "plan", for Eat, Stop, Eat,....other than just stop eating to much damn food!

That's fair enough but you need to have the knowledge to know the difference between well researched information and another in a long list of 'get rich quick' books. I didn't say his book wasn't good - just that I was sceptical.

Don't forget that just about every hair-brained, ridiculous, crazy fad diet book has been 'well researched"!

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2009/01/14/worst-diet-fads.html

SilkyHotspur

Check out Tom Venuto. He is a natural bodybuilder who has developed a program called The Holy Grail that addresses this exact issue. He has all the science and peer reviewed citations as well as his own experience as a bodybuilder.

Interesting but in all honesty I would prefer to listen to some of the guys on here who clearly know their stuff (picture proof) and have no other agenda other than to educate the likes of myself.

I instantly turn sceptical when I see somewhere on the site 'Add to cart'

Agreed, however, if someone has put a lot of time effort and research into something and they want to be paid in return, i don't see anything wrong with it. I paid for Eat, Stop, Eat...not because I have any "weight' to lose, but as I wanted to know the theories and confirm things I've always thought. It was an excellent read. There is no "plan", for Eat, Stop, Eat,....other than just stop eating to much damn food!

That's fair enough but you need to have the knowledge to know the difference between well researched information and another in a long list of 'get rich quick' books. I didn't say his book wasn't good - just that I was sceptical.

Don't forget that just about every hair-brained, ridiculous, crazy fad diet book has been 'well researched"!

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2009/01/14/worst-diet-fads.html

Everything has some sort of proof behind it, which is why I don't subscribe to any specific diet plan, nothing is off limits, other than allergy food (shellfish)

Matt_Wild

Check out Tom Venuto. He is a natural bodybuilder who has developed a program called The Holy Grail that addresses this exact issue. He has all the science and peer reviewed citations as well as his own experience as a bodybuilder.

He is describing carb cycling as I said above. Thats not doing both at the same time.

lovegrace21

I know it's been said, but you cannot gain muscle in a caloric deficit. Right now, I am eating 2200 cals per day with at least 1g of protein per lb of body weight everyday. This is precisely why bodybuilders go through 2 'phases'..bulking to gain mass and cutting to lose body fat after putting on mass.

I was underweight...5ft 5.5in and 108lbs. I was weightlifting 4 days per week and wasn't getting anywhere. I did my research and knew that to get where I wanted to be, I had to start EATING above maintenance and start lifting HEAVY. That's just the way it works.

jerzypeach

Check out Tom Venuto. He is a natural bodybuilder who has developed a program called The Holy Grail that addresses this exact issue. He has all the science and peer reviewed citations as well as his own experience as a bodybuilder.

He is describing carb cycling as I said above. Thats not doing both at the same time.

Venuto's method is carb cycling....but within one day......not over the course of a few days. He recommends eating your higher-carb (good quality.....not junk food) meals bracketed around your strength training workouts. The rest of the meals for your day are recommended to be lean protein and fibrous veggies. The theory is that you have the insulin increase right when you need it.....around your strength workouts for optimum muscle growth, and basically low-carb meals for the rest of the day when you don't need the extra insulin. He refers to this a carb cycling on the micro level.

LesterBlackstone

He recommends eating your higher-carb (good quality.....not junk food) meals bracketed around your strength training workouts.

And how often does he recommend strength training? Unless it's every day, this sounds exactly like Matt's description.


Edit: From the horse's mouth

"The way I describe nutritional periodization, the macrocycles are multi-week or multi-month periods and you break it down into a block with a primary focus of either muscle gain or fat loss. Mesocycles are the within-week changes – this is the carb cycling we spoke of earlier – and what makes the holy grail system unique is that I use short cycles – days long, not weeks long. Microcycles are the within-day changes in nutrition and this specifically, refers to post-workout nutrition and pre-workout nutrition."

Pretty much as described already.

magerum

i changed my weight loss goal to 1lb a week thats giving me 1950 cals a day ill try that for a couple days and see what happens

You're going to have to give it a couple weeks for your body to adjust. I've adjusted, over time, from 1200 calories daily to 3200. Each adjustment was followed by small gains (2 lbs or so) the first week, then by the next week they're typically gone and loss started again.

Just my opinion.

magerum

you gain muscle when having a surplus in your diet that is based on lean protein and good carbs and fats. But of course if you only eat mcdonalds you'll only gain fat

Rediculous.