Carnivores – why?

amivox

Dear Vegetarians:

Hate to break it to you... but plants are living things too!

Oh good lord.....this is the best you can do?

^^ Is THIS the best YOU can do?

First, pick a tomato. Then, run down a wild boar, wrestle it to the ground, and fight it to the death. Now, let's compare those two experiences.

So you would prefer to feed on the reproductive organs of a helpless plant rather than allow a creature to fight or its life?

Are you deliberately trying not to understand my point?

Are you deliberately trying to evade the point that plants are living things as well? So it is no less humane to kill an animal than harvest plants.

You forget that it takes at least 2 pounds of plant food to create a single pound of meat (some estimates are much higher). Therefore, if your heart bleeds for plants, you are causing double the 'pain' due to your food choice. But truly, I doubt if you would put the 'suffering' of plants on the order you do of animals, that you aren't being at all serious. I cut my teeth on this argument as a young vegetarian 40 years ago, so you aren't being as original as you may think you are being.

I am fully conscious of my place in the world as an omnivore so my heart does not bleed for the food chain. But, new studies in the physiology of plants have come out in the last 40 years that may change your views on sentience and how it relates to the plant world. If your vegetarian/veganism is based on the moral argument that it is cruel to feed on living, sentient creatures, then logic dictates that you must expand this to plant life as well.

Really? Could you give me cite to at least ONE of these many studies? Since plants don't have nervous systems, I really want to see this. I've only read two pages of this but already I have seen the usual dumb arguments.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/22/science/22angi.html?_r=3&em

Here is the article in the NYT that was part of the earlier part of the discussion.

The New York Times is not a scientific journal and is frequently full of drivel. Kindly refer me to a STUDY that shows plants feel pain.

http://www.pnas.org/content/105/29/10033.full.pdf+html?sid=f78311f9-74dc-4ef7-a8a6-0993bb8ae907

I read the abstract of this article. It has NOTHING to do with plants feeling pain. It concerns adoptive evolutionary strategies, nothing more.

What do you think pain is other than our body telling us to react to negative stimuli?

If you really think this way, then you must presume that atoms and molecules feel pain because they react to negative stimuli. A neutron will react to an electron. Does this mean we should eat nothing? You know what? WE SHOULDN"T EVEN BREATHE, man. The air is made up of particles that react negatively to my human presence. I disperse them! yeesh... Plants don't have a nervous system or a brain. They don't feel pain in the sense that a mammal or a bird does.

I have no problem with my place in this world so I am fine with it. Plants operate to defend themselves, much like birds, fish, mammals and insects. Where is the line drawn?

Pretty sure for anyone sane, the line is drawn at plants.

Let's explore this, then. Why is the line drawn at plants? Is it because they are the lowest on the food chain or is there another reason?

http://tabish.freeshell.org/animals/plantpain.html

I find it odd that is latest work in the citation table is a book published in 1989 and one other points to 19th century medicine.

He also makes no notes about how plants can and do seek out food and sustenance by both turning their bodies and defending their territory.

Dude, you should be a lawyer. Congratulations, I already gave up ^^^^ way up there ^^^^ when I said I have no moral objections to eating plants. I think that its silly because we have to eat something. They have no nervous system. They are tasty. I am eating raw onions right now and feeling superior and full of flatulence. Hooray! (Please, please note the sarcasm, because I know some people won't if I don't point it out for what it is, which is sad, because sarcasm is much more fun when you don't have to explain it.)

The End. I am hungry and this got boring.

odusgolp

I eat meat because it is delicious.

I'm Meat. Nice to meet you. :blushing:

Hahaha.... Nicely done


Step into my office please.

On my way!!!

cuatromommy

WHY DO I HAVE TO DEFEND MY LIFE CHOICES TO YOU!?! WE SHOULD ALL JUST KEEP TO OURSELVES AND NOT TRY TO UNDERSTAND OTHER PEOPLE'S POINT OF VIEW!

I agree

lori__lynn

*thud*

skullshank

this thread is fun.

i eat meat for the same reason i eat *****.
it tastes great and really satisfies.

VegesaurusRex

No, I am trying to get to the bottom of a flawed argument that leads followers to deem themselves morally superior. I find it interesting that you would leave rather than actually attempt to logically work out the discussion and defend your stance.

I cannot answer for the person you were quoting. But personally, I do not feel morally superior in any way. I do not eat meat because it makes ME feel better about MYSELF, not feel that I am better than anyone else.

(Caps for emphasis not because I am shouting!!)

Edited to fix quote

I don't feel morally superior, either, so I don't know where this person got that from. I just don't eat meat because it is what makes me happy and ok with my food decisions. I don't think I am better than anyone. I know I have plenty of other things that people would probably find morally objective about me.

I am not going to lie. I do feel morally superior. And healthier.

Glad you feel healthier than someone you have never met. I find your discussion style rather aggressive and judgemental. Is this going to be an exchange of ideas or you just sniping comments?

I am happy to exchange idea. In the realm of vegetarianism, ideas on diet are based on studies, like the China Study, the Framingham Study, the German Vegetarian study and about a thousand more. Anything unsupported by science is mere opinion.

Now I also assumed that when you said you wanted a discussion, you wanted an honest discussion. Honestly I feel morally superior to meat eaters. I could lie and be politically correct, and I will if it makes you feel more comfortable, but I can eat and survive without killing a sentient feeling being. I am superior.

I know that is going to convince no one, but at least I am being honest. What SHOULD convince you are the hundreds of studies done on diets that demonstrate that meat is implicated in chronic diseases and shorter life span. Humans are a vegetarian species. We are not meant to eat meat. There is ample evidence for that.

When did humans become a vegetarian species? I seem to remember reading books about the hunter-gatherers of prehistory. Do you think that prehistoric man would have gone through the danger of hunting large game if they could get everything they needed from plants?

Difference between herbovore, carnivore and human:

Anatomically and physiologically, people are herbivores.

Facial Muscles
Carnivore: Reduced to allow wide mouth gape
Herbivore: Well-developed
Human: Well-developed

Jaw Type
Carnivore: Angle not expanded
Herbivore: Expanded angle
Human: Expanded angle

Jaw Joint Location
Carnivore: On same plane as molar teeth
Herbivore: Above the plane of the molars
Human: Above the plane of the molars

Jaw Motion
Carnivore: Shearing; minimal side-to-side motion
Herbivore: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back
Human: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back

Major Jaw Muscles
Carnivore: Temporalis
Herbivore: Masseter and pterygoids
Human: Masseter and pterygoids

Mouth Opening vs. Head Size
Carnivore: Large
Herbivore: Small
Human: Small

Teeth (Incisors)
Carnivore: Short and pointed
Herbivore: Broad, flattened and spade shaped
Human: Broad, flattened and spade shaped

Teeth (Canines)
Carnivore: Long, sharp and curved
Herbivore: Dull and short or long (for defense), or none
Human: Short and blunted

Teeth (Molars)
Carnivore: Sharp, jagged and blade shaped
Herbivore: Flattened with cusps vs complex surface
Human: Flattened with nodular cusps

Chewing
Carnivore: None; swallows food whole
Herbivore: Extensive chewing necessary
Human: Extensive chewing necessary

Saliva
Carnivore: No digestive enzymes
Herbivore: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes
Human: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes

Stomach
Carnivore: Simple
Herbivore: Simple or multiple chambers
Human: Simple

Stomach Acidity
Carnivore: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
Herbivore: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach
Human: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach

Stomach Capacity
Carnivore: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
Herbivore: Less than 30% of total volume of digestive tract
Human: 21% to 27% of total volume of digestive tract

Length of Small Intestine
Carnivore: 3 to 6 times body length
Herbivore: 10 to more than 12 times body length
Human: 10 to 11 times body length

Colon
Carnivore: Simple, short and smooth
Herbivore: Long, complex; may be sacculated
Human: Long, sacculated

Liver
Carnivore: Can detoxify vitamin A
Herbivore: Cannot detoxify vitamin A
Human: Cannot detoxify vitamin A

Kidneys
Carnivore: Extremely concentrated urine
Herbivore: Moderately concentrated urine
Human: Moderately concentrated urine

Nails
Carnivore: Sharp claws
Herbivore: Flattened nails or blunt hooves
Human: Flattened nails


Anatomically and physiologically, people are herbivores.


When we kill the animals to eat them, they end up killing us because their flesh, which contains cholesterol and saturated fat, was never intended for human beings." --William C. Roberts, M.D., editor of The American Journal of Cardiology

basically, all you have pointed to is that humans have the ability to eat plants, much like an omnivore. But you did not answer my question about when humans became vegetarian and why would prehistoric humans take such a risk hunting large game?

NO, humans not only have the ability to eat plants, they are DESIGNED to eat plants. That is why we get chronic diseases when we eat meat. You cannot show me one study that shows humans get chronic diseases from eating plants.

doorki

Dear Vegetarians:

Hate to break it to you... but plants are living things too!

Oh good lord.....this is the best you can do?

^^ Is THIS the best YOU can do?

First, pick a tomato. Then, run down a wild boar, wrestle it to the ground, and fight it to the death. Now, let's compare those two experiences.

So you would prefer to feed on the reproductive organs of a helpless plant rather than allow a creature to fight or its life?

Are you deliberately trying not to understand my point?

Are you deliberately trying to evade the point that plants are living things as well? So it is no less humane to kill an animal than harvest plants.

You forget that it takes at least 2 pounds of plant food to create a single pound of meat (some estimates are much higher). Therefore, if your heart bleeds for plants, you are causing double the 'pain' due to your food choice. But truly, I doubt if you would put the 'suffering' of plants on the order you do of animals, that you aren't being at all serious. I cut my teeth on this argument as a young vegetarian 40 years ago, so you aren't being as original as you may think you are being.

I am fully conscious of my place in the world as an omnivore so my heart does not bleed for the food chain. But, new studies in the physiology of plants have come out in the last 40 years that may change your views on sentience and how it relates to the plant world. If your vegetarian/veganism is based on the moral argument that it is cruel to feed on living, sentient creatures, then logic dictates that you must expand this to plant life as well.

Really? Could you give me cite to at least ONE of these many studies? Since plants don't have nervous systems, I really want to see this. I've only read two pages of this but already I have seen the usual dumb arguments.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/22/science/22angi.html?_r=3&em

Here is the article in the NYT that was part of the earlier part of the discussion.

The New York Times is not a scientific journal and is frequently full of drivel. Kindly refer me to a STUDY that shows plants feel pain.

http://www.pnas.org/content/105/29/10033.full.pdf+html?sid=f78311f9-74dc-4ef7-a8a6-0993bb8ae907

I read the abstract of this article. It has NOTHING to do with plants feeling pain. It concerns adoptive evolutionary strategies, nothing more.

What do you think pain is other than our body telling us to react to negative stimuli?

If you really think this way, then you must presume that atoms and molecules feel pain because they react to negative stimuli. A neutron will react to an electron. Does this mean we should eat nothing? You know what? WE SHOULDN"T EVEN BREATHE, man. The air is made up of particles that react negatively to my human presence. I disperse them! yeesh... Plants don't have a nervous system or a brain. They don't feel pain in the sense that a mammal or a bird does.

I have no problem with my place in this world so I am fine with it. Plants operate to defend themselves, much like birds, fish, mammals and insects. Where is the line drawn?

Pretty sure for anyone sane, the line is drawn at plants.

Let's explore this, then. Why is the line drawn at plants? Is it because they are the lowest on the food chain or is there another reason?

http://tabish.freeshell.org/animals/plantpain.html

I find it odd that is latest work in the citation table is a book published in 1989 and one other points to 19th century medicine.

He also makes no notes about how plants can and do seek out food and sustenance by both turning their bodies and defending their territory.

Dude, you should be a lawyer. Congratulations, I already gave up ^^^^ way up there ^^^^ when I said I have no moral objections to eating plants. I think that its silly because we have to eat something. They have no nervous system. They are tasty. I am eating raw onions right now and feeling superior and full of flatulence. Hooray! (Please, please note the sarcasm, because I know some people won't if I don't point it out for what it is, which is sad, because sarcasm is much more fun when you don't have to explain it.)

The End. I am hungry and this got boring.

Have a good and windy night

scythswife

because it tastes good and i like it

doorki

No, I am trying to get to the bottom of a flawed argument that leads followers to deem themselves morally superior. I find it interesting that you would leave rather than actually attempt to logically work out the discussion and defend your stance.

I cannot answer for the person you were quoting. But personally, I do not feel morally superior in any way. I do not eat meat because it makes ME feel better about MYSELF, not feel that I am better than anyone else.

(Caps for emphasis not because I am shouting!!)

Edited to fix quote

I don't feel morally superior, either, so I don't know where this person got that from. I just don't eat meat because it is what makes me happy and ok with my food decisions. I don't think I am better than anyone. I know I have plenty of other things that people would probably find morally objective about me.

I am not going to lie. I do feel morally superior. And healthier.

Glad you feel healthier than someone you have never met. I find your discussion style rather aggressive and judgemental. Is this going to be an exchange of ideas or you just sniping comments?

I am happy to exchange idea. In the realm of vegetarianism, ideas on diet are based on studies, like the China Study, the Framingham Study, the German Vegetarian study and about a thousand more. Anything unsupported by science is mere opinion.

Now I also assumed that when you said you wanted a discussion, you wanted an honest discussion. Honestly I feel morally superior to meat eaters. I could lie and be politically correct, and I will if it makes you feel more comfortable, but I can eat and survive without killing a sentient feeling being. I am superior.

I know that is going to convince no one, but at least I am being honest. What SHOULD convince you are the hundreds of studies done on diets that demonstrate that meat is implicated in chronic diseases and shorter life span. Humans are a vegetarian species. We are not meant to eat meat. There is ample evidence for that.

When did humans become a vegetarian species? I seem to remember reading books about the hunter-gatherers of prehistory. Do you think that prehistoric man would have gone through the danger of hunting large game if they could get everything they needed from plants?

Difference between herbovore, carnivore and human:

Anatomically and physiologically, people are herbivores.

Facial Muscles
Carnivore: Reduced to allow wide mouth gape
Herbivore: Well-developed
Human: Well-developed

Jaw Type
Carnivore: Angle not expanded
Herbivore: Expanded angle
Human: Expanded angle

Jaw Joint Location
Carnivore: On same plane as molar teeth
Herbivore: Above the plane of the molars
Human: Above the plane of the molars

Jaw Motion
Carnivore: Shearing; minimal side-to-side motion
Herbivore: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back
Human: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back

Major Jaw Muscles
Carnivore: Temporalis
Herbivore: Masseter and pterygoids
Human: Masseter and pterygoids

Mouth Opening vs. Head Size
Carnivore: Large
Herbivore: Small
Human: Small

Teeth (Incisors)
Carnivore: Short and pointed
Herbivore: Broad, flattened and spade shaped
Human: Broad, flattened and spade shaped

Teeth (Canines)
Carnivore: Long, sharp and curved
Herbivore: Dull and short or long (for defense), or none
Human: Short and blunted

Teeth (Molars)
Carnivore: Sharp, jagged and blade shaped
Herbivore: Flattened with cusps vs complex surface
Human: Flattened with nodular cusps

Chewing
Carnivore: None; swallows food whole
Herbivore: Extensive chewing necessary
Human: Extensive chewing necessary

Saliva
Carnivore: No digestive enzymes
Herbivore: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes
Human: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes

Stomach
Carnivore: Simple
Herbivore: Simple or multiple chambers
Human: Simple

Stomach Acidity
Carnivore: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
Herbivore: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach
Human: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach

Stomach Capacity
Carnivore: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
Herbivore: Less than 30% of total volume of digestive tract
Human: 21% to 27% of total volume of digestive tract

Length of Small Intestine
Carnivore: 3 to 6 times body length
Herbivore: 10 to more than 12 times body length
Human: 10 to 11 times body length

Colon
Carnivore: Simple, short and smooth
Herbivore: Long, complex; may be sacculated
Human: Long, sacculated

Liver
Carnivore: Can detoxify vitamin A
Herbivore: Cannot detoxify vitamin A
Human: Cannot detoxify vitamin A

Kidneys
Carnivore: Extremely concentrated urine
Herbivore: Moderately concentrated urine
Human: Moderately concentrated urine

Nails
Carnivore: Sharp claws
Herbivore: Flattened nails or blunt hooves
Human: Flattened nails


Anatomically and physiologically, people are herbivores.


When we kill the animals to eat them, they end up killing us because their flesh, which contains cholesterol and saturated fat, was never intended for human beings." --William C. Roberts, M.D., editor of The American Journal of Cardiology

basically, all you have pointed to is that humans have the ability to eat plants, much like an omnivore. But you did not answer my question about when humans became vegetarian and why would prehistoric humans take such a risk hunting large game?

NO, humans not only have the ability to eat plants, they are DESIGNED to eat plants. That is why we get chronic diseases when we eat meat. You cannot show me one study that shows humans get chronic diseases from eating plants.

Are you going to keep avoiding the prehistoric humans question?

JThomas61

Because I am a card carrying member of P.E.T.A - People Eating Tasty Animals!!!! :smokin:

VegesaurusRex

You have constantly implied superiority and your husband has outright stated it rather aggressively. I have no problem with vegetarians but I do not agree that it is the only way to go, nor do I believe that it is the best way to go. Have a good evening.

Why is it that you don't seem to have heard everything else I said, but merely that I feel superior because I am a vegetarian. I was just being honest. Why does that bother you?

How about the hard arguments about meat being implicated in chronic diseases? I notice you have not mentioned that.

tmauck4472

Please explain why and how you don't eat meat? Nothing better than a steak when it's moo'ing at you. Taste waaaaay better than a piece of broccoli and I love broccoli.

hiker282

I am an equal opportunity eater. I don't judge my food based upon whether it once ate something else before I ate it. It is unfortunate that others simply find yet another reason to be offended by the way I choose to sustain my existence; but *I* don't ask *you* to justify the way you eat. That's the difference.

Laces_0ut

even plants eat meat.

Sidesteal

How about the hard arguments about meat being implicated in chronic diseases? I notice you have not mentioned that.

Can you provide any peer reviewed research that isn't an epidemiological study that tries to make a causative link? If so, I would read it.

scythswife

I've been saving this for just such a thread. :happy:

too cute

VegesaurusRex

Are you going to keep avoiding the prehistoric humans question?

I would not avoid it if I heard it clearly articulated. Are you talking about austrolopithicenes? Homo erectus? Paleolithic humans? If you care to articulate the arguement I will respond.

MsNewBooty83

i was raised on it and it tastes good. the dead animal part doesnt bother me.

d0gma

However, I just don't get it. There has never been a good argument presented to me why someone would want to eat a dead animal. I figure because whenever I ask “why”, the silly carnivores almost always get offended.

Because it's harder to eat them when they're still alive.

VegesaurusRex

How about the hard arguments about meat being implicated in chronic diseases? I notice you have not mentioned that.

Can you provide any peer reviewed research that isn't an epidemiological study that tries to make a causative link? If so, I would read it.

Oh, God! Please tell me you are not about to launch into the "correlation does not equal causation" argument. That is the cornerstone of everyone who got a C in statistics. Please tell me that is NOT what you are implying.