Everything in moderation? Really?

mcarter99

Most authorities recommend taking a flexible approach to weight loss. The problem with the strict, hard-line way is for most of us, one slip-up equates to "Now I blew my diet, I may as well eat the rest of the cookies, and that, and that..." It snowballs into a problem when the original slip was no problem at all.

kennethmgreen

It's possible to disagree with someone's choices without "judgment" of their character or worth as a human being. "Stop judging me!" is just an easier way of saying "it's your fault I am terrible at civil discourse".

Was your post directed at me?

I see that you and the OP are friends, so maybe you are jumping to his defense? You posted immediately after my post, so I apologize if I am jumping to the wrong conclusions.

In case you were replying directly to my post, let me clarify my point.

I have no problem with the OP making judgments. I was criticizing what I believed (my judgment) to be a sideways/passive way to make his point. I thought his methodology was disingenuous and was calling him on it. It felt to me that the entire point of starting the topic was less "here is what I do and why it works" and more "here is what others do and why they are wrong." Perhaps a similar end game, but one is much easier to learn a different perspective.

I agree with your point, by the way. "Stop judging me!" isn't a good argument. We all judge. But I wouldn't use that reasoning to counter an argument.

As for the topic in general, I think there are people who have a hard time with moderation. There are people who may have "trigger foods." But that doesn't mean "eating in moderation" is a flawed approach. Because the problem is that those people aren't eating in moderation. The problem is that some people have difficulty eating some foods in moderation. That is a real problem, recounted on MFP many times. And it's often solved by simply staying away from certain foods completely. But that doesn't prove the "everything in moderation" model wrong. It just proves that some people have difficulty eating in moderation with some foods.

louised88

what is happiness worth?

for some people happiness is a walk on the beach,
for others it's cuddling with their loved ones,
for some it might be that big mac as a once a month treat.

i see no harm in it. regular doses of happiness are good for your health!

I find it utterly ridiculous to equate happiness with food. That is an unhealthy emotional attachment with something that can be very detrimental to one's health.

Being healthy makes me lead a happy, more loving and productive life. No junk or fake food is worth taking that away.

And, I find that most people now days don't know what it is like to actually feel GOOD.

i don't dismiss other people's enjoyments as ridiculous. i'm sure a lot of people out there hate cats and would find my 'playing with the cat' dose of happiness utterly ridiculous... but i'd just think they were being muppets.

if chocolate makes a person happy, if they can find a way to have it without it damaging their health, then who are you to judge them? it's only an unhealthy attachment if they cannot control it, if they rely on it, if they indulge too often.


judgy mcjudgypants.

lol very true.

On another note, can people please stop saying "I'm not putting chemicals in my body!!!!1!!eleventy" when what they seem to mean is artificial flavourings/colourings? Water is a chemical, I assume you're not all avoiding that like the plague?

bcattoes

Most authorities recommend taking a flexible approach to weight loss. The problem with the strict, hard-line way is for most of us, one slip-up equates to "Now I blew my diet, I may as well eat the rest of the cookies, and that, and that..." It snowballs into a problem when the original slip was no problem at all.

And have you noticed it's always the crowd that has eliminated things from their diets that try to get everyone else to do it as well? It must be the "misery loves company" mindset. Otherwise why be so judgemental of what others eat?

myofibril

And, I find that most people now days don't know what it is like to actually feel GOOD.

What an interesting statement.

Exactly how did you find this? "Most people" is a lot of people, how many were involved in your research. What definition of "good" did you use for this research.

I think this is commonly known as "making *kitten* up"...

In my opinion.

Sidesteal

Am I the only person on MFP who *doesn't* believe in "everything in moderation"? That some foods just aren't worth eating, so I don't? That some foods are processed to the point that they don't really seem like food anymore and the only reason you *think* they taste good is because you are conditioned to believe they taste good? That the excuse of "if I don't eat it, then I'll just crave it more and that will destroy my diet" is just that, an excuse? That maybe, just maybe, the "secret" to ending a "bad relationship" with certain foods that ultimately cause you to stumble in your diet is to stop eating them entirely (and then learning that once you do, these foods no longer have such power over you)?

:huh:

ETA: And please don't misunderstand, I'm not talking about *never* eating something that isn't totally healthy for you. I understand that sometimes, certain foods *are* worth the dietary hit. I'm talking about the constant insistence that *nothing* is ever off limits (and then the subsequent problem: a frequent indulgence in foods like these).

Here is my opinion on this matter:


1) The phrase "Everything in Moderation" is most applicable to people who have a belief that specific foods are inherently lipogenic. For example, the belief that bread will make me fat may cause me to eliminate bread from my diet.

2) If the individual has some issues where they simply CANNOT eat 1 serving of chips, or 1 piece of cake, then short term food elimination MIGHT be the best solution. This however, is largely individual.


I don't believe that "Everything in Moderation" means that you literally should find a way to eat everything. I think "Anything in Moderation" is a much better phrase, since it simply means that if you desire to eat it, you can, in the right amounts and assuming the ability to regulate what happens afterwards (like sticking to your diet after that piece of cake).

3) I think food elimination is "generally" not a good idea but I don't think it's "always" a bad idea.

There's often times the argument of "This isn't nutrient dense and my body doesn't NEED this so I will not eat ANY of it" and I just don't think that this method is intelligent assuming that the individual enjoys said food. (If you don't like the taste of it then obviously eliminating it happens). If you get to the point that you can't see the enjoyment of a piece of cake or a bowl of icecream (as an example), and instead you view it as evil sugar or too many carbs, I think you've got some work to do on your relationship with food.

Human beings enjoy food, that's why a lot of us got fat. I don't think it's smart to shut that off.

And that's my opinion.

taso42

Yes, Really.

infamousmk

Yes, really. I still enjoy beer and Big Macs and cheesecakes when appropriate, and I lose weight too. And I'm happy as a clam, to boot.

jofjltncb6

Awesome to see that this discussion carried on, and a lot of good dialogue from both sides of the fence. Also, not surprising that at least one person believes that apparently we should never discuss other peoples' diets because it's none of our business, and even one that has fully analyzed, judged, and deemed my intentions as disingenuous (and then went on to essentially tell me how I *should have* approached the topic). For the record, I just wanted to start a discussion of this topic, and thought throwing my first thoughts into a kick-off post would be a great way to do that. Looking back, I would say that I was correct. Could I have phrased it more clearly? Absolutely...and even found myself clarifying (and further developing) it in subsequent messages. Could I have phrased it less controversially? Sure...but why would I use "less controversy" as a measure of the worth of a post? (Quite honestly, if given a choice, I'd probably tend to go with "more controversy" given the intent (as I would expect for most forum posts like this) was to spark an interesting exchange of ideas.)

Who do you think has told them it is the only way?

Anecdotal from discussions I've had with others in my life...but I think you can find many who seem to have that viewpoint in this very thread.

Just curious, what foods for you are "not worth eating" and which foods do you think people "are conditioned to believe they taste good"? Just wondering, not trying to argue.

I don't really have a list, but I think foods like Hostess Twinkies are probably what I had in mind. Maybe Cheez-Whiz. If not these things exactly, things like them, at least. I'm talking about a general template, a concept, a basic mindset...not a definite list that everyone would need to adhere to.

And have you noticed it's always the crowd that has eliminated things from their diets that try to get everyone else to do it as well? It must be the "misery loves company" mindset. Otherwise why be so judgemental of what others eat?

And have you noticed it's always the crowd that follows the "everything in moderation" that try to get everyone else to do it as well? It must be the "misery loves company" mindset. Otherwise why be so judgemental of what others eat?

(BTW, I am not miserable. I feel great.)

And again with this "judgmental" thing. We all have our opinions, we share them on a forum like this, and when some people disagree, they respond, "judgmental!" Fine, disagree with me. I expect that, I'm fine with that...that's part of a healthy exchange of opposing viewpoints...but playing the "judgmental" card is weak. Everyone who shares an opinion is judgmental. That's just how the process works. (Meh. I think I'm going to adopt a policy of just ignoring comments like this, because if they can't see the hypocrisy in their own judgment, there's nothing I can do about it.)

AlsDonkBoxSquat

You pick your vices and I'll pick mine. If it's working for you, whatever, but don't get mad when I happily sit down next to you with my occassional chick fil a or my second glass of 4oz of wine or my carefully alloted for cookie or my measured handful of dark chocolate goodness.

For you it's not worth it to eat those things, for me it's worth the extra time in the gym so I can eat those things and still have it work for me.

ArroganceInStep

Show me a person who can't eat unhealthy food in moderation to satisfy cravings, and I can show you another person that can't completely cut out a favorite unhealthy food because if they try, eventually they'll end up binging on it later.

Find the way that works for you, and go with that. Both have merit. Or do both depending.

I CANNOT eat just one York peppermint patty. If I try, I'll do the food equivalent of waking up in a seedy motel in Tijuana covered in hookers and blow. I just don't eat them anymore.

Ice cream, however, if I try to completely cut out, I'll be miserable to the point of simply quitting my diet out of frustration. I try to eat some ice cream on occasion and generally do fairly well with that.

jofjltncb6

You pick your vices and I'll pick mine. If it's working for you, whatever, but don't get mad when I happily sit down next to you with my occassional chick fil a or my second glass of 4oz of wine or my carefully alloted for cookie or my measured handful of dark chocolate goodness.

For you it's not worth it to eat those things, for me it's worth the extra time in the gym so I can eat those things and still have it work for me.

Pull up a chair. And if the topic of food choice comes up in our conversation, we can share our differing viewpoints. (Although we will at least find common ground on quality dark chocolate. My current preference is Green & Black's 85%. Mmmm.)

If anyone thinks I am mad that people are finding their successes in an "EIM" approach, or that I somehow feel superior to them because my approach is different, I believe they are completely misunderstanding.

tmauck4472

Show me a person who can't eat unhealthy food in moderation to satisfy cravings, and I can show you another person that can't completely cut out a favorite unhealthy food because if they try, eventually they'll end up binging on it later.

Find the way that works for you, and go with that. Both have merit. Or do both depending.

I CANNOT eat just one York peppermint patty. If I try, I'll do the food equivalent of waking up in a seedy motel in Tijuana covered in hookers and blow. I just don't eat them anymore.

Ice cream, however, if I try to completely cut out, I'll be miserable to the point of simply quitting my diet out of frustration. I try to eat some ice cream on occasion and generally do fairly well with that.

I take my kid to get ice cream and I have a bite or two of his and I'm truly satisfied and ice cream was the one thing if in my freezer I'm eating all of it. Now it can be in there and I don't even care. Cheesecake is the same way. I don't crave things like that anymore. I'm thankful, but homemade bread, don't even get me started cause one taste is not enough. So I really stay away from it. Not even allowed to bake it in my house anymore, or I have to leave and it better be gone by the time I get home.

PaleoPath4Lyfe

It's possible to disagree with someone's choices without "judgment" of their character or worth as a human being. "Stop judging me!" is just an easier way of saying "it's your fault I am terrible at civil discourse".

Yes, it is highly possible to disagree without "judgement".

All the sugar and soy in these fake foods is making people too sensitive to the point you can't have a conversation with people without them crying that they are being judged.

Loulady

jofjltncb6

Show me a person who can't eat unhealthy food in moderation to satisfy cravings, and I can show you another person that can't completely cut out a favorite unhealthy food because if they try, eventually they'll end up binging on it later.

Find the way that works for you, and go with that. Both have merit. Or do both depending.

I CANNOT eat just one York peppermint patty. If I try, I'll do the food equivalent of waking up in a seedy motel in Tijuana covered in hookers and blow. I just don't eat them anymore.

Ice cream, however, if I try to completely cut out, I'll be miserable to the point of simply quitting my diet out of frustration. I try to eat some ice cream on occasion and generally do fairly well with that.

You say this as if cravings are a necessary part of our food choices. I am offering a differing viewpoint. My argument is that it *may* be possible for at least *some* people to break the pattern that is causing those cravings.

And based entirely on my n=1 research, I have found that when I do deviate from my food preferences (either out of "necessity" or "convenience"), I just do not succumb to the "quitting my diet out of frustration" feeling. Instead, I get the "okay, time to get back on track" feeling...and then I get back on track. Despite the seeming "absoluteness" of my dietary approach, I think I still maintain a perspective of the bigger picture. (Although this may entirely be an individual personality thing far more than a dietary approach thing. *shrug*)

KBGirts

Have you ever heard the real story of a professor who lost weight by eating Twinkies? So your assumption is wrong, sorry.

Then go ahead and have your twinkies. For some people, the goal is not about just losing weight. There's so much more to it than that for a lot of people.

PaleoPath4Lyfe

What does this have to do with the conversation???

PaleoPath4Lyfe

Have you ever heard the real story of a professor who lost weight by eating Twinkies? So your assumption is wrong, sorry.

Then go ahead and have your twinkies. For some people, the goal is not about just losing weight. There's so much more to it than that for a lot of people.

Yep, exactly.

There are some people on this site that don't even worry about losing the weight, it is 100% about health first and foremost. The weight loss is merely an added benefit.

dinosnopro

I think over restrictive diets, and the belief that eliminating certain " bad " foods will make a huge difference in fat loss are the biggest issues when it comes to a diet failing. I feel education is key to finding a way of eating that, in the long term is sustainable.