Hunter-gatherers vs Westerners
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The key to losing weight and keeping it off is to eat quality calories like vegetables, fruits, high quality protein (grass fed red meat, fish, and other animal protein), some nuts and seeds and eliminate grains and sugars. Grains are for the birds and sugar is very
harmful.
Here is an interesting link for people that want a healthy way to lose weight and keep it off.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/04/22/is-supersize-documentary-really-accurate.aspx
It is more than calories in < calories out.0 -
[Fine. Let's accept that as true. Well then, we didn't evolve carnivore characteristics, what kind of caracteristics did we evolve? Gee, herbivore characteristics. Why do you suppose that is? BECAUSE WE WERE AND STILL ARE HERBIVORES. We got the default, i.e., what we had before we started eating meat. HERBIVORE CHARACTERISTICS. Don't you think that might mean that we are herbivores? The argument you presented simply assumes we started as herbivores, and have not changed. I can buy that. We can still move our jaws back and forth and we can still grind with our molars, (and in fact we still have molars!) I guess we are still herbivores.
Actually, all is says is that at some point in our evolution we were herbivores and that there wasn't sufficient selection pressure to cause our jaws to change.What about the B12 issue?
B12 was not a problem when we pulled up roots and ate them with little or no thought for hygene. The super clean veggies we eat now make it a problem. That is probably the simplest answer.
Yeah, the soil bacteria. So I take it you supplement B12 instead of eating dirty veggies? Animals are still a better source from what I understand, but it's true we don't need much.0 -
WE ARE HERBIVORES!!!
Anatomically and physiologically, people are herbivores.
Facial Muscles
Carnivore: Reduced to allow wide mouth gape
Herbivore: Well-developed
Human: Well-developed
Stuff removed for brevity...
Nails
Carnivore: Sharp claws
Herbivore: Flattened nails or blunt hooves
Human: Flattened nails
Anatomically and physiologically, people are herbivores.
When we kill the animals to eat them, they end up killing us because their flesh, which contains cholesterol and saturated fat, was never intended for human beings." --William C. Roberts, M.D., editor of The American Journal of Cardiology
Yes, I've read that particular pro-herbivore page. I've also read rebuttals. The jaw and fingernail ones I already gave for example. Honestly, everything I've read indicates to me that the truth is probably that we evolved to eat both and we obviously do. The ratio of which is open to debate.0 -
WE ARE HERBIVORES!!!
Anatomically and physiologically, people are herbivores.
When we kill the animals to eat them, they end up killing us because their flesh, which contains cholesterol and saturated fat, was never intended for human beings." --William C. Roberts, M.D., editor of The American Journal of Cardiology
first off - if humans are herbivores why have we evolved to be capable of eating meat?
Why can rabbits eat meat? Why can bears eat blueberries? We can get SOME nurishment from any living organism. You can give a cat soy products only and it will survive - for a while. Eventually bad things will start to happen. Same with humans, you can give us nothing but meat for a while, and we can survive -but eventually bad things will happen.
secondly - which study is it that clearly states and proves unequivocally that dietary cholesterol and saturated fat ingested by the human body are directly responsible for 'killing us'?
Just google Chronic Diseases caused by eating meat and you will get more studies than you can ever read. Why do you suppose the Editor of the American Journal of Cardiology said what I posted? Why do you suppose they recommend vegetarian diets, or at least cutting meat drastically? I am not making this stuff up, and it is so well known, it is pretty much common knowledge.
If the editor of the American Journal of Cardiology is so insistent we are herbivores, then why tell us to cut meat drastically? Surely he should tell us to avoid meat AlTOGETHER!!!
Like that other hugely successful creature the rat, humans have evolved to be omnivores. Why? Because it has served us better.0 -
The key to losing weight and keeping it off is to eat quality calories like vegetables, fruits, high quality protein (grass fed red meat, fish, and other animal protein), some nuts and seeds and eliminate grains and sugars. Grains are for the birds and sugar is very
harmful.
Here is an interesting link for people that want a healthy way to lose weight and keep it off.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/04/22/is-supersize-documentary-really-accurate.aspx
It is more than calories in < calories out.
I went full circle on that one. In the end I believe the key is to cut calories, eating certain macro ratios may help with satiety and health though. Now why we got fat to begin with, that's another question...0 -
WE ARE HERBIVORES!!!
Anatomically and physiologically, people are herbivores.
When we kill the animals to eat them, they end up killing us because their flesh, which contains cholesterol and saturated fat, was never intended for human beings." --William C. Roberts, M.D., editor of The American Journal of Cardiology
first off - if humans are herbivores why have we evolved to be capable of eating meat?
Why can rabbits eat meat? Why can bears eat blueberries? We can get SOME nurishment from any living organism. You can give a cat soy products only and it will survive - for a while. Eventually bad things will start to happen. Same with humans, you can give us nothing but meat for a while, and we can survive -but eventually bad things will happen.
secondly - which study is it that clearly states and proves unequivocally that dietary cholesterol and saturated fat ingested by the human body are directly responsible for 'killing us'?
Just google Chronic Diseases caused by eating meat and you will get more studies than you can ever read. Why do you suppose the Editor of the American Journal of Cardiology said what I posted? Why do you suppose they recommend vegetarian diets, or at least cutting meat drastically? I am not making this stuff up, and it is so well known, it is pretty much common knowledge.
If the editor of the American Journal of Cardiology is so insistent we are herbivores, then why tell us to cut meat drastically? Surely he should tell us to avoid meat AlTOGETHER!!!
Guess what? HE DID! Read what he said! I've posted it twice. Does that sound like he is asking people to eat meat?
Like that other hugely successful creature the rat, humans have evolved to be omnivores. Why? Because it has served us better.
Okay, you obviously don't get it. Let me try a different approach: Define the physiological differences between an omnivore and a herbivore. Then define the physiological differences between an omnivore and a carnivore. Now when you finally decide that you cannot do this, then think about why. OMNIVORES ARE NOT A PHYSIOLOGICAL CATEGORY.0 -
[Fine. Let's accept that as true. Well then, we didn't evolve carnivore characteristics, what kind of caracteristics did we evolve? Gee, herbivore characteristics. Why do you suppose that is? BECAUSE WE WERE AND STILL ARE HERBIVORES. We got the default, i.e., what we had before we started eating meat. HERBIVORE CHARACTERISTICS. Don't you think that might mean that we are herbivores? The argument you presented simply assumes we started as herbivores, and have not changed. I can buy that. We can still move our jaws back and forth and we can still grind with our molars, (and in fact we still have molars!) I guess we are still herbivores.
Actually, all is says is that at some point in our evolution we were herbivores and that there wasn't sufficient selection pressure to cause our jaws to change.
*******************
Yes, mutt, I think you are starting to get it. AT SOME POINT IN OUR EVOLUTION WE WERE HERBIVORES AND THERE WASN'T SUFFICIENT PRESSURE TO CHANGE. Now think about the logical conclusion to that statement -- Wait, wait I think I've got it:. If we started as herbivores, and there was no pressure to change, then guess what? WE STILL ARE HERBIVORES!
See, Mutt, even you have come to the right conclusion.
*******************
What about the B12 issue?
B12 was not a problem when we pulled up roots and ate them with little or no thought for hygene. The super clean veggies we eat now make it a problem. That is probably the simplest answer.
Yeah, the soil bacteria. So I take it you supplement B12 instead of eating dirty veggies? Animals are still a better source from what I understand, but it's true we don't need much.
**********************
No, and despite common belief there are vegetarian sources: bacteria,(oh, yeah that's what you said.) which was the same source as we used to utilize with dirty vegetables. So what is wrong with supplements? We are living in the 21st century.
*********************0 -
WE ARE HERBIVORES!!!
Anatomically and physiologically, people are herbivores.
Facial Muscles
Carnivore: Reduced to allow wide mouth gape
Herbivore: Well-developed
Human: Well-developed
Stuff removed for brevity...
Nails
Carnivore: Sharp claws
Herbivore: Flattened nails or blunt hooves
Human: Flattened nails
Anatomically and physiologically, people are herbivores.
When we kill the animals to eat them, they end up killing us because their flesh, which contains cholesterol and saturated fat, was never intended for human beings." --William C. Roberts, M.D., editor of The American Journal of Cardiology
Yes, I've read that particular pro-herbivore page. I've also read rebuttals. The jaw and fingernail ones I already gave for example. Honestly, everything I've read indicates to me that the truth is probably that we evolved to eat both and we obviously do. The ratio of which is open to debate.
Mutt, there is no question that we can eat both, just as a bear can and does eat blueberries. That doesn't change its nature, any more than eating meat can change our nature. If we eat too much meat, we will develop chronic diseases. If a cat only eats vegetarian food, it will develop chronic severe problems. If we eat only vegetables, however, we will not develop chronic problems related to diet. If a cat eats only meat, however it will not develop chronic problems related to diet. Are you starting to see the difference between a herbivore and a carnivore?
[0 -
"Okay, you obviously don't get it. Let me try a different approach: Define the physiological differences between an omnivore and a herbivore. Then define the physiological differences between an omnivore and a carnivore. Now when you finally decide that you cannot do this, then think about why. OMNIVORES ARE NOT A PHYSIOLOGICAL CATEGORY."
Wow. You just removed an entire category from the animal kingdom.
Omnivores do exist. And here's another thought. How do humans process grain? You know, that key part of a herbivores diet? Ah, that's right, we can't without cooking it.
Now I respect any scientist, however I also respect the action of peer review and there are any number of scientists out there who can give counter-arguments to William C Roberts quotes. We'll go around in circles if you like but the fossil record points to an evolution of the hominid species to be an omnivore. Our bones, teeth, digestive system and even the fact that we walk on two legs is evidence of that.
Vegetarianism is a choice, not a requirement for longevity. Does Roberts subscribe to the vegan lifestyle?0 -
are you still prattling on with this herbivore mumbojumbo, VeggieRex? sigh.0
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What is wrong with supplements? What is good in small amounts might be harmful in larger amounts.
How do you know there won't be unintended consequences on gene regulation in humans? What if methylation of a certain gene mutes the expression of one that's beneficial?
Not even thinking about your claim that dietary cholesterol and saturated fats are killing us.
Done with this thread.0 -
Let us all bow in silence for all that plants that have died today. A very sensitive MFP has entered the room. (Gregorian chanting, optional).0
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"Okay, you obviously don't get it. Let me try a different approach: Define the physiological differences between an omnivore and a herbivore. Then define the physiological differences between an omnivore and a carnivore. Now when you finally decide that you cannot do this, then think about why. OMNIVORES ARE NOT A PHYSIOLOGICAL CATEGORY."
Wow. You just removed an entire category from the animal kingdom.
No, it is not a category. Let me ask you again, and I will keep asking you. If there is a physiological category called OMNIVORE, define it PHYSIOLOGICALLY. LIke I did with herbivores and carnavores. Tell me what physiological traits do Omnivores have that are different from both herbivores and carnavores. This question is not going to go away as long as you persist in claiming that omnivore is a physiological category, I want specific traits like I gave. Describe Omnivore dentition, intestines, mandible, etc.0 -
What is wrong with supplements? What is good in small amounts might be harmful in larger amounts.
Very true. Many people believe if some is good, more is better. So they supplement away even though in most cases they get plenty of whatever it is in their food. At best, this is a waste of money. At worst, toxicity could result or a negative reaction with a medication that you are currently taking.
Also, note that the FDA does not regulate dietary supplements in the same way that it regulates medicine. A dietary supplement can be sold without research on how well it works, and the process by which they are made is not standardized. So it's always good to check out the supplement through a reliable source before using it. Some have lots of detailed research while others have none to back up their claims.
Of course, some people do well on supplements. It's something you should decide WITH your doctor and dietitian, for your safety and your pocketbook. In general, you're going to get more benefits through consuming nutrients from the food that contains them than through supplements.0 -
What is wrong with supplements? What is good in small amounts might be harmful in larger amounts.
How do you know there won't be unintended consequences on gene regulation in humans? What if methylation of a certain gene mutes the expression of one that's beneficial?
I don't know about unintended consequences of too much B12, but I doubt it would shut down any genes, since you can apparently take 1000 times too much B12 without any problem, i.e., without the kind of stress that would cause adding of a methyl group to a gene.
Not even thinking about your claim that dietary cholesterol and saturated fats are killing us.
Done with this thread.
Adios! Enjoy your diet and thank God Canada has free chemotherapy.0 -
Actually, all is says is that at some point in our evolution we were herbivores and that there wasn't sufficient selection pressure to cause our jaws to change.
*******************
Yes, mutt, I think you are starting to get it. AT SOME POINT IN OUR EVOLUTION WE WERE HERBIVORES AND THERE WASN'T SUFFICIENT PRESSURE TO CHANGE. Now think about the logical conclusion to that statement -- Wait, wait I think I've got it:. If we started as herbivores, and there was no pressure to change, then guess what? WE STILL ARE HERBIVORES!
See, Mutt, even you have come to the right conclusion.
*******************
There was no selection pressure to modify our jaws, that doesn't mean there wasn't selection pressure to modify other parts of our anatomy. Serious Veggie, it gets to a certain point in the debate where you start getting just a little obnoxious. "Mutt, even you have come to the right conclusion". Give me a break dude... lol Really poor form.What about the B12 issue?
B12 was not a problem when we pulled up roots and ate them with little or no thought for hygene. The super clean veggies we eat now make it a problem. That is probably the simplest answer.
Yeah, the soil bacteria. So I take it you supplement B12 instead of eating dirty veggies? Animals are still a better source from what I understand, but it's true we don't need much.
**********************
No, and despite common belief there are vegetarian sources: bacteria,(oh, yeah that's what you said.) which was the same source as we used to utilize with dirty vegetables. So what is wrong with supplements? We are living in the 21st century.
*********************
You're being defensive, I was just clarifying.0 -
Let us all bow in silence for all that plants that have died today. A very sensitive MFP has entered the room. (Gregorian chanting, optional).
Turn on the chanting, I'm a fan.
0 -
What is wrong with supplements? What is good in small amounts might be harmful in larger amounts.
How do you know there won't be unintended consequences on gene regulation in humans? What if methylation of a certain gene mutes the expression of one that's beneficial?
I don't know about unintended consequences of too much B12, but I doubt it would shut down any genes, since you can apparently take 1000 times too much B12 without any problem, i.e., without the kind of stress that would cause adding of a methyl group to a gene.
Not even thinking about your claim that dietary cholesterol and saturated fats are killing us.
Done with this thread.
Adios! Enjoy your diet and thank God Canada has free chemotherapy.
Silverkittycat is not in canada... lol0 -
What is wrong with supplements? What is good in small amounts might be harmful in larger amounts.
Very true. Many people believe if some is good, more is better. So they supplement away even though in most cases they get plenty of whatever it is in their food. At best, this is a waste of money. At worst, toxicity could result or a negative reaction with a medication that you are currently taking.
Also, note that the FDA does not regulate dietary supplements in the same way that it regulates medicine. A dietary supplement can be sold without research on how well it works, and the process by which they are made is not standardized. So it's always good to check out the supplement through a reliable source before using it. Some have lots of detailed research while others have none to back up their claims.
Of course, some people do well on supplements. It's something you should decide WITH your doctor and dietitian, for your safety and your pocketbook. In general, you're going to get more benefits through consuming nutrients from the food that contains them than through supplements.
Let me guess. You are studying to be a dietitian?
The FDA doesn't regulate B12 because as far as I know, no one has ever OD'ed on B12. I certainly would not start eating meat just to get B12 "naturally." The B12 I take comes from bacteria, which is the natural source of B12 for humans, Meat is the unnatural source, in my opinion, because it comes with endotoxins which you cannot boil out of meat. You can kill the bacteria but you can't kill the endotoxins.0 -
What is wrong with supplements? What is good in small amounts might be harmful in larger amounts.
How do you know there won't be unintended consequences on gene regulation in humans? What if methylation of a certain gene mutes the expression of one that's beneficial?
I don't know about unintended consequences of too much B12, but I doubt it would shut down any genes, since you can apparently take 1000 times too much B12 without any problem, i.e., without the kind of stress that would cause adding of a methyl group to a gene.
Not even thinking about your claim that dietary cholesterol and saturated fats are killing us.
Done with this thread.
Adios! Enjoy your diet and thank God Canada has free chemotherapy.
Silverkittycat is not in canada... lol
I thought she was. Sorry if I confused you with someone else Silver, but more's the pity. Obamacare will be DOA after this next election and you will have to pay for your own chemotherapy.0
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