Hunter-gatherers vs Westerners
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A fine criticism from someone who makes ex cathedra pronouncements like, "neither dietary cholesterol nor saturated fat has been proven to have a direct link to disease in the human body," and other unsubstantiated opinions you throw out with absolutely no science to back you up. You can't Google the subject without finding a hundred studies to show you are wrong. Just for the Hell of it I googled "Studies in 2012 that show eating meat causes cancer and heart disease," and I got about a dozen studies including this one:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/mar/12/red-meat-death-heart-cancer
Here is a longitudinal study on HUMANS not rats that just proves you wrong, dead wrong.
and I quote - "the study was observational, not controlled, and so cannot be used to determine cause and effect"
Observational studies such as this are well known to be flawed simply due to the fact that the humans participants are notoriously bad at recording accurately. Usually they require the participants to maintain a log, and this is reviewed, but other studies have shown (and many members of MFP can testify) that inaccurate recall can play havoc with your resluts.
If you read the study carefully, it states that eating red meat in excess of 500g a week suggests a link to heart disease. Note that noweher does it state that dietary cholecterol or saturated fat are the sulprits, and indeed it highlights the dangers of 'processed meat', which in itself is a vague term. 500g a week consumption of red meat is pretty high and the average person doesn't consume this. Also, please note that nowehere does it state that we shouldn't eat meat at all because we are herbivores.0 -
The skinny guy has a low BMR and more physical activity, the couch potato has a higher BMR but is sedentary. Result - potentially similar TDEE.....sorry - probably what I should have said was that their BMR changes little. So to say that the TDEE of the couch potato is the same as the skinny guy running around isn't true.
"Contrary to expectations, measures of TEE among Hadza adults were similar to those in Western (U.S. and Europe) populations. In multivariate comparisons of TEE controlling for FFM and age, Hadza women’s energy expenditure was similar to that of Western women (n = 186) and Hadza men’s TEE was similar to Western men (n = 53)" - from the paper http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0040503
The range of energy expenditure (TDEE) for the hunter gatherer women sits within the range of the Western women.
I apologise - I got distracted and should have responded to agree with what you are saying. I think you sum it up better than me! :flowerforyou:0 -
WE ARE HERBIVORES!!!
Anatomically and physiologically, people are herbivores.
Facial Muscles
Carnivore: Reduced to allow wide mouth gape
Herbivore: Well-developed
Human: Well-developed
Jaw Type
Carnivore: Angle not expanded
Herbivore: Expanded angle
Human: Expanded angle
Jaw Joint Location
Carnivore: On same plane as molar teeth
Herbivore: Above the plane of the molars
Human: Above the plane of the molars
Jaw Motion
Carnivore: Shearing; minimal side-to-side motion
Herbivore: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back
Human: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back
Major Jaw Muscles
Carnivore: Temporalis
Herbivore: Masseter and pterygoids
Human: Masseter and pterygoids
Mouth Opening vs. Head Size
Carnivore: Large
Herbivore: Small
Human: Small
Teeth (Incisors)
Carnivore: Short and pointed
Herbivore: Broad, flattened and spade shaped
Human: Broad, flattened and spade shaped
Teeth (Canines)
Carnivore: Long, sharp and curved
Herbivore: Dull and short or long (for defense), or none
Human: Short and blunted
Teeth (Molars)
Carnivore: Sharp, jagged and blade shaped
Herbivore: Flattened with cusps vs complex surface
Human: Flattened with nodular cusps
Chewing
Carnivore: None; swallows food whole
Herbivore: Extensive chewing necessary
Human: Extensive chewing necessary
Saliva
Carnivore: No digestive enzymes
Herbivore: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes
Human: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes
Stomach
Carnivore: Simple
Herbivore: Simple or multiple chambers
Human: Simple
Stomach Acidity
Carnivore: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
Herbivore: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach
Human: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach
Stomach Capacity
Carnivore: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
Herbivore: Less than 30% of total volume of digestive tract
Human: 21% to 27% of total volume of digestive tract
Length of Small Intestine
Carnivore: 3 to 6 times body length
Herbivore: 10 to more than 12 times body length
Human: 10 to 11 times body length
Colon
Carnivore: Simple, short and smooth
Herbivore: Long, complex; may be sacculated
Human: Long, sacculated
Liver
Carnivore: Can detoxify vitamin A
Herbivore: Cannot detoxify vitamin A
Human: Cannot detoxify vitamin A
Kidneys
Carnivore: Extremely concentrated urine
Herbivore: Moderately concentrated urine
Human: Moderately concentrated urine
Nails
Carnivore: Sharp claws
Herbivore: Flattened nails or blunt hooves
Human: Flattened nails
Anatomically and physiologically, people are herbivores.
When we kill the animals to eat them, they end up killing us because their flesh, which contains cholesterol and saturated fat, was never intended for human beings." --William C. Roberts, M.D., editor of The American Journal of Cardiology
See when I was a kid growing up I used to think people with multiple college degrees were something special, smarter than anyone else, BUT then I went to college, then I started living life in the real world. I found out they are just like you and me, no smarter, and in a lot of cases those with PHD, MD, or what have you after their names were actually not even as wise as people without, a lot of times they lack what “we” like to call common sense.
For anyone to seriously consider, or seriously try to convince another human that we are herbivores, and to do so because our mouth doesn’t open as wide as a lion, because our teeth aren’t as long as a leopard, because our colon is shaped different,,,,,,,,, well is just beyond foolish.
How about the hippo, carnivore or herbivore , it’s got a big mouth? How about the fact our eyes are in the front of our head for binocular vision, like all predators? How about the fact we do have teeth in the upper front of our mouth? Most of you probably don’t know this, and genius here I’m sure doesn’t, but cows, goats and deer etc, don’t even have teeth in their upper front jaw. How about the fact that without supplements humans CANNOT live as strictly vegans, if we evolved or were created as herbivores wouldn’t it make sense that we could survive, n,o thrive on a strict veggie diet without supplemental aids?
This folks is why you should be very careful whose advice you take from the internet, run it through your BS meter and see if it stinks,,,,,, because someone around here is piling on the BS.0 -
"Well, then it is quite shocking that the Editor of the American Journal of Cardiology thinks we are (herbivores) After all that medical training and all those operations, you would think he would know better! "
Actually I wouldn't. Roberts is a physician and pathologist. He's not a specialist in anatomy, diet or paleopathology. So why would he be the expert on the matter.
I quoted Macardle out of laziness. There are plenty of others. Let's go back to rats for a moment. Humour me. Is a rat a carnivore or a herbivore? Only it appears to have evolved nicely to eat pretty much anything. Like humans. Which can stand because they have evolve to hunt. Which have bigger brains due to more consumption of protein. Which learnt to cook almost simultaneously with learning to farm and therefore were able to process the grains and digest them. Physiology is only part of the story, and there are traits we share with carnivores, in the same way we share traits with herbivores.
As I said earlier, neither dietary cholesterol nor saturated fat has been proven to have a direct link to disease in the human body. And we are not herbivores. I'm out. I am not going to try and argue with someone who simply reiterates rubbish without considering the simple basic facts - that humans eat meat and have done so for millennia quite happily.
A fine criticism from someone who makes ex cathedra pronouncements like, "neither dietary cholesterol nor saturated fat has been proven to have a direct link to disease in the human body," and other unsubstantiated opinions you throw out with absolutely no science to back you up. You can't Google the subject without finding a hundred studies to show you are wrong. Just for the Hell of it I googled "Studies in 2012 that show eating meat causes cancer and heart disease," and I got about a dozen studies including this one:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/mar/12/red-meat-death-heart-cancer
Here is a longitudinal study on HUMANS not rats that just proves you wrong, dead wrong.
Just for the record, showing a link between something doesn't "prove" it, I can show you a link between having a phd and not know what the hell you are talking about if you gave me enouth money to study it0 -
A fine criticism from someone who makes ex cathedra pronouncements like, "neither dietary cholesterol nor saturated fat has been proven to have a direct link to disease in the human body," and other unsubstantiated opinions you throw out with absolutely no science to back you up. You can't Google the subject without finding a hundred studies to show you are wrong. Just for the Hell of it I googled "Studies in 2012 that show eating meat causes cancer and heart disease," and I got about a dozen studies including this one:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/mar/12/red-meat-death-heart-cancer
Here is a longitudinal study on HUMANS not rats that just proves you wrong, dead wrong.
and I quote - "the study was observational, not controlled, and so cannot be used to determine cause and effect"
Observational studies such as this are well known to be flawed simply due to the fact that the humans participants are notoriously bad at recording accurately. Usually they require the participants to maintain a log, and this is reviewed, but other studies have shown (and many members of MFP can testify) that inaccurate recall can play havoc with your resluts.
Spoken like a person who has never had an advanced statistics course in her life.
If you read the study carefully, it states that eating red meat in excess of 500g a week suggests a link to heart disease. Note that noweher does it state that dietary cholecterol or saturated fat are the sulprits, and indeed it highlights the dangers of 'processed meat', which in itself is a vague term. 500g a week consumption of red meat is pretty high and the average person doesn't consume this. Also, please note that nowehere does it state that we shouldn't eat meat at all because we are herbivores.
500 grams a week is two quarterpounders. And you think the average meat eater doesn't consume that? Perhaps you don't understand the metric system. From what you have said you don't understand much about science.0 -
500 grams a week is two quarterpounders. And you think the average meat eater doesn't consume that? Perhaps you don't understand the metric system. From what you have said you don't understand much about science.
from wiki -
The Quarter Pounder is a hamburger product sold by international fast food chain McDonald's, so named for containing a patty with a precooked weight of a quarter of a pound (113.4 g). The burger was introduced in 1972.
yup. last time I looked a quarter was a fourth of a pound. there are 2.2 pounds to the kilo.
and no, I have never taken an advanced statistics course, but I can read, and I can read carefully into what studies actually show and what they are trying to show. You have a beef with people eating meat. Fine. Go ahead. I really don't care. You're funny.0 -
500 grams a week is two quarterpounders. And you think the average meat eater doesn't consume that? Perhaps you don't understand the metric system. From what you have said you don't understand much about science.
from wiki -
The Quarter Pounder is a hamburger product sold by international fast food chain McDonald's, so named for containing a patty with a precooked weight of a quarter of a pound (113.4 g). The burger was introduced in 1972.
yup. last time I looked a quarter was a fourth of a pound. there are 2.2 pounds to the kilo.
and no, I have never taken an advanced statistics course, but I can read, and I can read carefully into what studies actually show and what they are trying to show. You have a beef with people eating meat. Fine. Go ahead. I really don't care. You're funny.
Okay, four quarter pounders per week. In the US the average meat consumption per person is 300 lbs per year. That is almost one pound per day.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/03/world-meat-consumption_n_1475760.html#s937014&title=177_India_70 -
vergingonvegan, im curious since you pointed out that herbivores often consume meat, and i agree because i have seen that in many feed lots and dairies when its mixed into their feed. my question is how many of these herbivores seek meat out when in the wild? because humans do.
I'm not sure I know enough to answer your question. I do know that carnivores, like bears and wolves, eat plants in the wild. My cats crave certain plant-foods, and will beg for them. I'm not sure how well-equipped a natural herbivore would be to catch an animal, and they might be like me in the sight of carrion: totally grossed out. I have no doubt natural herbivores inadvertently eat some bugs when they graze.0 -
Okay, four quarter pounders per week. In the US the average meat consumption per person is 300 lbs per year. That is almost one pound per day.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/03/world-meat-consumption_n_1475760.html#s937014&title=177_India_7
That's overall meat consumption, not just red meat and it's actually 276 lbs total.
On that study, here is one snippet about it that discussed the results:
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2012/03/12/red-meat-eating-increases-risk-of-early-death/
They found replacing a serving of red meat with fish improved your health and not only eliminated the increased risk of mortality but actually had a positive impact on lifespan. They then go on to talk about "veggies are even better" but don't quote the evidence of this from the study, like they did for the other claims which makes me think the study didn't show this for veggies... I then seen "Ornish" quoted as talking about the veggies... figures... lol
These studies have so many potential issues... but lets for the moment run with it... it may completely NOT apply to those on a Paleo/Primal diet since their intake of other food will be higher, as well their omega 3's and they'll be eating grass fed beef as much as possible. If you did the study with this type of diet the results may be completely different.
Also, they sort of mixed processed meat in there, that's not on the Paleo menu either.
Next...0 -
vergingonvegan, im curious since you pointed out that herbivores often consume meat, and i agree because i have seen that in many feed lots and dairies when its mixed into their feed. my question is how many of these herbivores seek meat out when in the wild? because humans do.
I'm not sure I know enough to answer your question. I do know that carnivores, like bears and wolves, eat plants in the wild. My cats crave certain plant-foods, and will beg for them. I'm not sure how well-equipped a natural herbivore would be to catch an animal, and they might be like me in the sight of carrion: totally grossed out. I have no doubt natural herbivores inadvertently eat some bugs when they graze.
I thought bears were omnivores.0 -
vergingonvegan, im curious since you pointed out that herbivores often consume meat, and i agree because i have seen that in many feed lots and dairies when its mixed into their feed. my question is how many of these herbivores seek meat out when in the wild? because humans do.
I'm not sure I know enough to answer your question. I do know that carnivores, like bears and wolves, eat plants in the wild. My cats crave certain plant-foods, and will beg for them. I'm not sure how well-equipped a natural herbivore would be to catch an animal, and they might be like me in the sight of carrion: totally grossed out. I have no doubt natural herbivores inadvertently eat some bugs when they graze.
I thought bears were omnivores.
You thought wrong. They are in the class CARNIVORA. Only animals in the class OMNIVORA are omnivores.0 -
Okay, four quarter pounders per week. In the US the average meat consumption per person is 300 lbs per year. That is almost one pound per day.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/03/world-meat-consumption_n_1475760.html#s937014&title=177_India_7
That's overall meat consumption, not just red meat and it's actually 276 lbs total.
On that study, here is one snippet about it that discussed the results:
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2012/03/12/red-meat-eating-increases-risk-of-early-death/
They found replacing a serving of red meat with fish improved your health and not only eliminated the increased risk of mortality but actually had a positive impact on lifespan. They then go on to talk about "veggies are even better" but don't quote the evidence of this from the study, like they did for the other claims which makes me think the study didn't show this for veggies... I then seen "Ornish" quoted as talking about the veggies... figures... lol
These studies have so many potential issues... but lets for the moment run with it... it may completely NOT apply to those on a Paleo/Primal diet since their intake of other food will be higher, as well their omega 3's and they'll be eating grass fed beef as much as possible. If you did the study with this type of diet the results may be completely different.
Also, they sort of mixed processed meat in there, that's not on the Paleo menu either.
Next...
Countries that Paleos should emulate, the tribal countries of Africa, eat around 10 to 11 pounds of meat per person each year, Tell me why Paleos don't advocate that?
Also, I asked some questions earlier that you haven't seemed to have gotten around to answering.0 -
vergingonvegan, im curious since you pointed out that herbivores often consume meat, and i agree because i have seen that in many feed lots and dairies when its mixed into their feed. my question is how many of these herbivores seek meat out when in the wild? because humans do.
I'm not sure I know enough to answer your question. I do know that carnivores, like bears and wolves, eat plants in the wild. My cats crave certain plant-foods, and will beg for them. I'm not sure how well-equipped a natural herbivore would be to catch an animal, and they might be like me in the sight of carrion: totally grossed out. I have no doubt natural herbivores inadvertently eat some bugs when they graze.
I thought bears were omnivores.
You thought wrong. They are in the class CARNIVORA. Only animals in the class OMNIVORA are omnivores.
So a Panda Bear is in order CARNIVORA yet subsists off of bamboo shoots? Seems to not be a very good way of classification. So what do humans eat since they are in the PRIMATE order?
Also, I see no listing for Omnivora but I do see a vegan site lamenting the loss of the order.0 -
I thought bears were omnivores.
You thought wrong. They are in the class CARNIVORA. Only animals in the class OMNIVORA are omnivores.
So a Panda Bear is in order CARNIVORA yet subsists off of bamboo shoots? Seems to not be a very good way of classification. So what do humans eat since they are in the PRIMATE order?
Cats are obligate carnivores. Yet they could live if 99% of their diet were vegetarian. I haven't looked at the Pandas, but I assume it is the same story.
Also, I see no listing for Omnivora but I do see a vegan site lamenting the loss of the order.
Right. There is no classification OMNIVORA. Say it loud and often THERE IS NO CLASS called OMNIVORA.. What might the reason be? Because OMNIVIORE IS NOT A TAXON OR PHYSIOLOGICAL CLASSIFICATION.
I think I have been trying to make this point for some time.0 -
Right. There is no classification OMNIVORA. Say it loud and often THERE IS NO CLASS called OMNIVORA.. What might the reason be? Because OMNIVIORE IS NOT A TAXON OR PHYSIOLOGICAL CLASSIFICATION.
I think I have been trying to make this point for some time.
erm. do you have some short term memory loss problem? Only about two posts ago you wrote this:
"You thought wrong. They are in the class CARNIVORA. Only animals in the class OMNIVORA are omnivores."
yours, very confused.0 -
Right. There is no classification OMNIVORA. Say it loud and often THERE IS NO CLASS called OMNIVORA.. What might the reason be? Because OMNIVIORE IS NOT A TAXON OR PHYSIOLOGICAL CLASSIFICATION.
I think I have been trying to make this point for some time.
erm. do you have some short term memory loss problem? Only about two posts ago you wrote this:
"You thought wrong. They are in the class CARNIVORA. Only animals in the class OMNIVORA are omnivores."
yours, very confused.
That was a set up. Of course I know there is no class OMNIVORA. But there is a class CARNIVORA. Why do you suppose?0 -
Right. There is no classification OMNIVORA. Say it loud and often THERE IS NO CLASS called OMNIVORA.. What might the reason be? Because OMNIVIORE IS NOT A TAXON OR PHYSIOLOGICAL CLASSIFICATION.
I think I have been trying to make this point for some time.
erm. do you have some short term memory loss problem? Only about two posts ago you wrote this:
"You thought wrong. They are in the class CARNIVORA. Only animals in the class OMNIVORA are omnivores."
yours, very confused.
That was a set up. Of course I know there is no class OMNIVORA. But there is a class CARNIVORA. Why do you suppose?
The classification system does not have to do with diet but rather with heredity. All creatures in the class CARNIVORA came from a line of creatures that was a carnivore. If it was based on diet alone, don't you think they would have shifted the Giant Panda out? Your reliance verbal loopholes and syntax prove that you really have no argument.0 -
Right. There is no classification OMNIVORA. Say it loud and often THERE IS NO CLASS called OMNIVORA.. What might the reason be? Because OMNIVIORE IS NOT A TAXON OR PHYSIOLOGICAL CLASSIFICATION.
I think I have been trying to make this point for some time.
erm. do you have some short term memory loss problem? Only about two posts ago you wrote this:
"You thought wrong. They are in the class CARNIVORA. Only animals in the class OMNIVORA are omnivores."
yours, very confused.
That was a set up. Of course I know there is no class OMNIVORA. But there is a class CARNIVORA. Why do you suppose?
Stop wasting people’s time. You are completely obsessed with this herbivore thing. Does it matter that much? The term omnivore applies very well to the human race because our bodies process both herbs and meat very successfully. Almost all animals can be classed as omnivores due to their use of both meat and veg, and each animal uses the material for different purposes. The human race (particularly in Northern Europe) developed to be able to absorb nutrients from cow’s milk as this assisted in the species survival. Some adults have developed to be able to continue to use these nutrients. Birds that are generally herbivorous feed worms to their babies to enable them to grow. Is it safe for humans to eat meat, have they evolved to be able to absorb nutrients from meat? Yes. They have. Eating meat will not kill you. Eating cr*p probably will.0 -
The classification system does not have to do with diet but rather with heredity. All creatures in the class CARNIVORA came from a line of creatures that was a carnivore. If it was based on diet alone, don't you think they would have shifted the Giant Panda out? Your reliance verbal loopholes and syntax prove that you really have no argument.
talking of Giant Pandas, really they should be extinct. They choose to eat something which is exceptionally low in nutrients and their body cannot possibly get enough nutrients from meaning they have to eat more and more of it. And they are rubbish at reproduction.
But they are cute.0 -
Right. There is no classification OMNIVORA. Say it loud and often THERE IS NO CLASS called OMNIVORA.. What might the reason be? Because OMNIVIORE IS NOT A TAXON OR PHYSIOLOGICAL CLASSIFICATION.
I think I have been trying to make this point for some time.
erm. do you have some short term memory loss problem? Only about two posts ago you wrote this:
"You thought wrong. They are in the class CARNIVORA. Only animals in the class OMNIVORA are omnivores."
yours, very confused.
That was a set up. Of course I know there is no class OMNIVORA. But there is a class CARNIVORA. Why do you suppose?
Stop wasting people’s time.
Hello! I did it to make a point. A point you still have not understood.
You are completely obsessed with this herbivore thing. Does it matter that much? The term omnivore applies very well to the human race because our bodies process both herbs and meat very successfully.
Yeah, except for getting chronic diseases from eating too much meat. If we also got chronic diseases from eating too many fruits and vegetables then you would have a point. But we don't and you don't.
Almost all animals can be classed as omnivores due to their use of both meat and veg, and each animal uses the material for different purposes.
Absolutely correct, Which is why the term is meaningless.
The human race (particularly in Northern Europe) developed to be able to absorb nutrients from cow’s milk as this assisted in the species survival.
Correct.
Some adults have developed to be able to continue to use these nutrients.
Correct.
Birds that are generally herbivorous feed worms to their babies to enable them to grow. Is it safe for humans to eat meat, have they evolved to be able to absorb nutrients from meat? Yes. They have. Eating meat will not kill you.
Eating meat CAN kill you. This is what I really dislike about you Paleos, you have selective ability to understand what you read. There are hundreds of studies that show that eating large amounts of meat will kill you. Governmental food recommendations tell you to eat less meat. Every competent health source says to eat less meat. Yet you continue strolling in Lala land pretending eating meat does no harm. YOU ARE WRONG . Eating meat can hurt you.
Eating cr*p probably will.
I don't know. I will have to take your word for it.0
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