Over training.
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That bold, right there is exactly the wall I hit a couple of years ago. OP mentions that compulsive need to exercise. I did that, and AthleanXed myself right into 6 months downtime. Which sucked lol.Great post.
Too many I've seen comment that only experienced can put in a level of effort to overtrain, so untrue. Even easier I think for untrained dieters taking who knows how unreasonable a deficit.
The other problem I've noticed people have that are not experienced with observing things, and have no objective measurement method (pace, weight on bar, ect) is they'll push doing whatever so it feels the same level of effort to them.
Problem is as body starts losing it over days or weeks, they may "feel" like they are pushing themselves to the same level - but they really aren't.
So what used to be a level of workout that would cause the body to improve, starts becoming just spinning their wheels with no improvement.
And I've found in the past too - the body will get the rest it needs - eventually through some means.
Usually getting sick and being out of commission for way more days/weeks than doing things smart in the first place would have prevented.
Or worse injury that really takes you out.
I shudder every time someone starts a post about not losing weight with working out 3 x daily and works out to be over 50% deficit.
Needless to say I think my approach is a good deal safer today after that learning experience.
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Azdak doesn't believe in "starvation mode". He was stating that overtraining is like "starvation mode" because it's likely not a real thing. Individuals vary and some people can train everyday and quite intensely for years and still get results. And then there are people that will attempt the same and burn out. We don't know exactly how everyone's day goes or what type of other jobs they may have to do physically or mentally but that definitely plays into how the body can recover or not. There are people who workout just 30 minutes a day, eat right, just work 8 hours a day and can't sleep worth a crap. So I have to agree with him. I think each individual has to look at themselves objectively and try to deductively figure out whether or not what they are doing is overtraining for them. The list of signs the OP gave are a good indicator, but just feeling that way doesn't necessarily mean it's overtraining. Depression alone can happen with or without overtraining.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Yes I realize that Azdak doesn't believe in starvation mode. That disbelief made up part of the basis of my reply. Azdak and I appear to disagree that overtraining doesn't exist though we appear to agree that starvation mode (in the context of what's often talked about on MFP) doesn't exist.
Azdak doesn't believe in "starvation mode". He was stating that overtraining is like "starvation mode" because it's likely not a real thing. Individuals vary and some people can train everyday and quite intensely for years and still get results. And then there are people that will attempt the same and burn out. We don't know exactly how everyone's day goes or what type of other jobs they may have to do physically or mentally but that definitely plays into how the body can recover or not. There are people who workout just 30 minutes a day, eat right, just work 8 hours a day and can't sleep worth a crap. So I have to agree with him. I think each individual has to look at themselves objectively and try to deductively figure out whether or not what they are doing is overtraining for them. The list of signs the OP gave are a good indicator, but just feeling that way doesn't necessarily mean it's overtraining. Depression alone can happen with or without overtraining.
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In terms of whether or not overtraining exists, a trip down Google Scholar is better than anecdotes.
2nd edit:
The, "some people do xyz and aren't overtrained thus overtraining doesn't exist" idea is somewhat akin to claiming that PTSD doesn't exist by saying "some people experience major trauma and don't have lasting psychological issues because of it".1 -
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Azdak doesn't believe in "starvation mode". He was stating that overtraining is like "starvation mode" because it's likely not a real thing. Individuals vary and some people can train everyday and quite intensely for years and still get results. And then there are people that will attempt the same and burn out. We don't know exactly how everyone's day goes or what type of other jobs they may have to do physically or mentally but that definitely plays into how the body can recover or not. There are people who workout just 30 minutes a day, eat right, just work 8 hours a day and can't sleep worth a crap. So I have to agree with him. I think each individual has to look at themselves objectively and try to deductively figure out whether or not what they are doing is overtraining for them. The list of signs the OP gave are a good indicator, but just feeling that way doesn't necessarily mean it's overtraining. Depression alone can happen with or without overtraining.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Here's a link from the NIH & overtraining:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3435910/
Is overtraining a reality? Sure.
Is it as common as some might think? Dunno..... I'm thinking probably not. (just a guess)2 -
maureenseel1984 wrote: »Can speak from experience as someone who over-trained, under-ate and wound up with an eating disorder AND stress fractures....
+1, add some tendonitis. Thanks for this post, I hope it raises awareness. I’m still paying for my years of mistakes and frustration. More folks need to take it slow and steady. Go hard like an athlete if that’s your thing, but remember that most athletes aren’t in a constant deficit, and that they build in time for rest and recovery.
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Motorsheen wrote: »
Azdak doesn't believe in "starvation mode". He was stating that overtraining is like "starvation mode" because it's likely not a real thing. Individuals vary and some people can train everyday and quite intensely for years and still get results. And then there are people that will attempt the same and burn out. We don't know exactly how everyone's day goes or what type of other jobs they may have to do physically or mentally but that definitely plays into how the body can recover or not. There are people who workout just 30 minutes a day, eat right, just work 8 hours a day and can't sleep worth a crap. So I have to agree with him. I think each individual has to look at themselves objectively and try to deductively figure out whether or not what they are doing is overtraining for them. The list of signs the OP gave are a good indicator, but just feeling that way doesn't necessarily mean it's overtraining. Depression alone can happen with or without overtraining.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Here's a link from the NIH & overtraining:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3435910/
Is overtraining a reality? Sure.
Is it as common as some might think? Dunno..... I'm thinking probably not. (just a guess)
Exactly - and before anyone mentions this in relation to my post, I never said anything about how common overtraining is, just that it exists. As an aside, I've never seen "overreaching" be used in the context of that article, thanks for that.0 -
Motorsheen wrote: »
Azdak doesn't believe in "starvation mode". He was stating that overtraining is like "starvation mode" because it's likely not a real thing. Individuals vary and some people can train everyday and quite intensely for years and still get results. And then there are people that will attempt the same and burn out. We don't know exactly how everyone's day goes or what type of other jobs they may have to do physically or mentally but that definitely plays into how the body can recover or not. There are people who workout just 30 minutes a day, eat right, just work 8 hours a day and can't sleep worth a crap. So I have to agree with him. I think each individual has to look at themselves objectively and try to deductively figure out whether or not what they are doing is overtraining for them. The list of signs the OP gave are a good indicator, but just feeling that way doesn't necessarily mean it's overtraining. Depression alone can happen with or without overtraining.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Here's a link from the NIH & overtraining:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3435910/
Is overtraining a reality? Sure.
Is it as common as some might think? Dunno..... I'm thinking probably not. (just a guess)
Exactly - and before anyone mentions this in relation to my post, I never said anything about how common overtraining is, just that it exists. As an aside, I've never seen "overreaching" be used in the context of that article, thanks for that.
Just like 'starvation mode' actually exists.... however, just because you're hungry, it doesn't necessarily mean that you are automatically in starvation mode.
When I hear 'starvation mode', images of the Bataan Death March (and other atrocities) come to mind, just not skipping a couple of Happy Meals.1 -
Motorsheen wrote: »Motorsheen wrote: »
Azdak doesn't believe in "starvation mode". He was stating that overtraining is like "starvation mode" because it's likely not a real thing. Individuals vary and some people can train everyday and quite intensely for years and still get results. And then there are people that will attempt the same and burn out. We don't know exactly how everyone's day goes or what type of other jobs they may have to do physically or mentally but that definitely plays into how the body can recover or not. There are people who workout just 30 minutes a day, eat right, just work 8 hours a day and can't sleep worth a crap. So I have to agree with him. I think each individual has to look at themselves objectively and try to deductively figure out whether or not what they are doing is overtraining for them. The list of signs the OP gave are a good indicator, but just feeling that way doesn't necessarily mean it's overtraining. Depression alone can happen with or without overtraining.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Here's a link from the NIH & overtraining:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3435910/
Is overtraining a reality? Sure.
Is it as common as some might think? Dunno..... I'm thinking probably not. (just a guess)
Exactly - and before anyone mentions this in relation to my post, I never said anything about how common overtraining is, just that it exists. As an aside, I've never seen "overreaching" be used in the context of that article, thanks for that.
Just like 'starvation mode' actually exists.... however, just because you're hungry, it doesn't necessarily mean that you are automatically in starvation mode.
When I hear 'starvation mode', images of the Bataan Death March (and other atrocities) come to mind, just not skipping a couple of Happy Meals.
Exactly. I think of, among other things, severe malnutrition and famine. For better or worse, most people aren't referring to that when they say "starvation mode" on these forums. I've only read a handful of posts where someone has talked about having had a history of really severe malnutrition and referred to that as "starvation mode".0 -
maureenseel1984 wrote: »Can speak from experience as someone who over-trained, under-ate and wound up with an eating disorder AND stress fractures....
+1, add some tendonitis. Thanks for this post, I hope it raises awareness. I’m still paying for my years of mistakes and frustration. More folks need to take it slow and steady. Go hard like an athlete if that’s your thing, but remember that most athletes aren’t in a constant deficit, and that they build in time for rest and recovery.
I'd put a sharper point on it than that. "Athletes" are not a different thing from "people". Everyone is on a continuum (maybe several continuums) of fitness. There is always some level of activity (duration, frequency, intensity, etc.) that is not enough to progress, some levels that will result in progress at varied rates, some level that will result in fatigue and even regress, some (low) level that will let decline happen by default.
Challenging physical activity is a stressor (whether beneficial or not). In our lives, it exists in a context of other factors that may also be stressors (calorie deficit/surfeit, emotional upheaval, nutritional issues, sleep quality and duration, and many more).
The totality of stress needs to stay in some manageable range in order to make progress (on nearly anything, not just fitness). Different people have different tolerances and capabilities for many reasons. Insightful people (or their coaches) pay attention to that.
Personally, I think anyone who works to improve their physical capabilities is "an athlete". Elite athlets tend to systematically reduce or eliminate stressors extraneous to achieving the maximum performance consistent with their (usually high) genetic potential.
For all of us, consciously managing stressors is a smart idea.5 -
maureenseel1984 wrote: »Can speak from experience as someone who over-trained, under-ate and wound up with an eating disorder AND stress fractures....
+1, add some tendonitis. Thanks for this post, I hope it raises awareness. I’m still paying for my years of mistakes and frustration. More folks need to take it slow and steady. Go hard like an athlete if that’s your thing, but remember that most athletes aren’t in a constant deficit, and that they build in time for rest and recovery.
I'd put a sharper point on it than that. "Athletes" are not a different thing from "people". Everyone is on a continuum (maybe several continuums) of fitness. There is always some level of activity (duration, frequency, intensity, etc.) that is not enough to progress, some levels that will result in progress at varied rates, some level that will result in fatigue and even regress, some (low) level that will let decline happen by default.
Challenging physical activity is a stressor (whether beneficial or not). In our lives, it exists in a context of other factors that may also be stressors (calorie deficit/surfeit, emotional upheaval, nutritional issues, sleep quality and duration, and many more).
The totality of stress needs to stay in some manageable range in order to make progress (on nearly anything, not just fitness). Different people have different tolerances and capabilities for many reasons. Insightful people (or their coaches) pay attention to that.
Personally, I think anyone who works to improve their physical capabilities is "an athlete". Elite athlets tend to systematically reduce or eliminate stressors extraneous to achieving the maximum performance consistent with their (usually high) genetic potential.
For all of us, consciously managing stressors is a smart idea.
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