Have any of you tried the Paleo Diet? Success???
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"Paleo appears to be the latest incarnation of the Atkins diet. It's only a matter of time before paleo cupcakes and bread can be found along side the Wonder bread. And when paleo junk-food goes mainstream, paleo will cease to be an effective weight loss method for the majority of people. Then a new diet will gain popularity."
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Agreed! I'm suspicious of any diet that ignores the known health problems with consuming meat yet limits my fruit intake and eliminates legumes.0 -
Known health problem from eating meat? Huh, interesting...... :yawn:0
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"Paleo appears to be the latest incarnation of the Atkins diet. It's only a matter of time before paleo cupcakes and bread can be found along side the Wonder bread. And when paleo junk-food goes mainstream, paleo will cease to be an effective weight loss method for the majority of people. Then a new diet will gain popularity."
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Agreed! I'm suspicious of any diet that ignores the known health problems with consuming meat yet limits my fruit intake and eliminates legumes.
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>People, please, please, please stop trying to justify opinions by claiming them as fact: "known health problems". There's enough info out there, and here, that challenge what you think are facts. Not only that, paleo promotes lean meat and wild meat, both of which are considered healthy under most diets. For me, I have done enough research and know enough about my own body to know that I shouldn't eat grains or legumes. Currently, I only limit fruit because the fructose causes me problems. I get the same nutrients from vegetables.
If you haven't tried this way of eating/lifestyle, why are you commenting?0 -
"Paleo appears to be the latest incarnation of the Atkins diet. It's only a matter of time before paleo cupcakes and bread can be found along side the Wonder bread. And when paleo junk-food goes mainstream, paleo will cease to be an effective weight loss method for the majority of people. Then a new diet will gain popularity."
Agreed! I'm suspicious of any diet that ignores the known health problems with consuming meat yet limits my fruit intake and eliminates legumes.>People, please, please, please stop trying to justify opinions by claiming them as fact: "known health problems". There's enough info out there, and here, that challenge what you think are facts. Not only that, paleo promotes lean meat and wild meat, both of which are considered healthy under most diets. For me, I have done enough research and know enough about my own body to know that I shouldn't eat grains or legumes. Currently, I only limit fruit because the fructose causes me problems. I get the same nutrients from vegetables.
If you haven't tried this way of eating/lifestyle, why are you commenting?
These topics usually bring the vegetarian crowd over to bash, which is what that was up there. That's ok more tasty meat for us while they live in denial that their crop farming isn't killing literally millions of little critters every year around the world.0 -
I am going to regret coming here, since I have frequently argued with Paleos, and it is very much like trying to argue with people who believe the earth is 6,000 years old and God put dinosaur bones here to test our faith. Paleo's know little or nothing about anthropology, physiology, and dare I say, health. It is a fad diet, and this admittedly prejudiced article says much of what I would say about Paleo, but I would go much further:
The Paleo Diet Is Uncivilized (And Unhealthy And Untrue)
John McDougall, MD | 06/30/12
Low-carbohydrate (low-carb) diets are fueling the destruction of human health and our planet Earth. “Low-carbohydrate” means a diet high in animal foods and low in plant foods. Only plants synthesize carbohydrates (sugars). The body parts of animals, including red meat, poultry, seafood, and fish, and eggs, contain no carbohydrates. Animal secretions (like mammalian milk) contain sugars synthesized by plants (the cow eats the grass that made the sugar). The original Atkins Diet is the ultimate in low-carb eating. This diet works by starving the human body of carbohydrates in order to induce a state of illness (ketosis), which can result in weight loss. People become too sick to eat too much.
In an attempt to remedy the obvious harms to human health caused by very low-carb eating, apologists (including the Atkins Nutritionals) have added fruits and non-starchy vegetables to their programs. This effort is supposed to disguise, and compensate for, the unhealthy effects of consuming animal foods at every meal.
The Paleo Diet: The Newest Promoter of Eating the Planet and Its Inhabitants to Death
The Paleo Diet (also referred to as the Paleolithic Diet, the Paleodiet, the Caveman Diet, the Stone Age Diet, and the Hunter-Gatherer Diet) is the most recent and popular approach to weight loss, improved health, and longevity, and is accomplished by eating large amounts of animal-derived foods (which are no-carbohydrate, and high-protein and/or high-fat foods). The Paleo Diet consists mainly of meat, poultry, shellfish, fish, and eggs; non-starchy orange, green, and yellow vegetables; and fruits and nuts. This approach forbids starches, including all grains, legumes, and potatoes. To its credit it also excludes dairy products and refined sugars. Salt and processed oils (with the exception of olive oil) are also excluded.
This nutritional plan is based on the presumption that our ancestors, living during the Paleolithic era—a period of time from 10,000 to 2.5 million years ago—were nourished primarily by animal foods. According the basic theory behind Paleo dieting, as a result of more than two millions of years of evolution, we are now genetically adapted to eat what the hunter-gathers ate—mostly animal foods.
The Paleo Diet book (revised 2011) is “the bible” for followers of this approach (page numbers from this book are found in parenthesis in this article). Written by Loren Cordain, PhD, Professor in the Department of Health and Exercise Science at Colorado State University, the Paleo Diet is said to be “the one and only diet that ideally fits our genetic makeup.” (p 3) The author claims that every human being on Earth ate this way for the past 2.5 million years, until the dawn of the Agriculture Revolution (10,000 years ago), when grains, legumes, and potatoes were introduced worldwide. According to Dr. Cordain, “...there wasn’t a single person who did not follow the Paleo Diet.” (p 71). With the development of agriculture about 10,000 years ago, “Paleo experts” teach that human health and longevity plummeted. By no coincidence, the Agriculture Revolution marks the dawn of civilization. “Civilization” encompasses our advanced state of intellectual, cultural, and material development, marked by progress in the arts, music, sciences, languages, writing, computers, transportation, and politics.
“If You Repeat a Lie Often Enough, It becomes the Truth”
Teachers of Paleo nutrition claim our ancient ancestors were hunter-gathers with an emphasis on hunting, regardless of what the bulk of current scientific research reports. They base their hypothesis largely upon a flawed review of contemporary hunter-gathers.
Primates, including humans, have practiced hunting and gathering for millions of years. I know of no large populations of primates who have been strict vegans (ate no animal foods at all). However, plants have, with very few exceptions, provided the bulk of the calories for almost all primates. This truth has been unpopular in part because of a well-recognized human trait, sexism. Grandparents, women, and children did the gathering, while men hunted. Glory always goes to the hunters.
When asked about the commonly held idea that ancient people were primarily meat-eaters, the highly respected anthropologist, Nathanial Dominy, PhD, from Dartmouth College responded, “That’s a myth. Hunter-gathers, the majority of their calories come from plant foods…meat is just too unpredictable.” After studying the bones, teeth, and genetics of primates for his entire career as a biological anthropologist, Dr. Dominy, states, “Humans might be more appropriately described as ‘starchivores.’”
Paleo diet proponents spare no effort to ignore and distort science. The general public is at their mercy until they look for themselves at recent publications from the major scientific journals:
* Research published in the journal Nature (on June 27, 2012) reports that almost the entire diet of our very early human ancestors, dating from 2 million years ago, consisted of leaves, fruits, wood, and bark—a diet similar to modern day chimpanzees.
* According to research presented in a 2009 issue of Science, people living in what is now Mozambique, along the eastern coast of Africa, may have followed a diet based on the cereal grass sorghum as long as 105,000 years ago.
* Research presented in a 2011 issue of Proceedings of the National Academy of Science shows that even the Neanderthals ate a variety of plant foods; starch grains have been found on the teeth of their skeletons everywhere from the warm eastern Mediterranean to chilly northwestern Europe. It appears they even cooked, and otherwise prepared, plant foods to make them more digestible—44,000 years ago.
* A 2010 issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Science reported that starch grains from wild plants were identified on grinding tools at archeological sites dating back to the Paleolithic period in Italy, Russia, and the Czech Republic. These findings suggest that processing vegetables and starches, and possibly grinding them into flour, was a widespread practice in Europe as far back as 30,000 years ago, or even earlier.
Falsehoods leading the general public to choose foods that threaten our very existence have been challenged for decades, but as I have said before, people like to hear good news about their bad habits; so the Paleo Diet continues to get a highly visible platform with too little public debate.
The Hunter-gather Diet Is Repulsive
Dr. Cordain writes, “For most of us, the thought of eating organs is not only repulsive, but is also not practical as we simply do not have access to wild game.” (p 131). In addition to the usual beef, veal, pork, chicken, and fish, a Paleo follower is required to eat; alligator, bear, kangaroo, deer, rattlesnake, and wild boar are also on the menu. Mail-order suppliers for these wild animals are provided in his book.
More than half (55%) of a Paleo dieter’s food comes from lean meats, organ meats, fish, and seafood. (p 24) Eating wild animals is preferred, but grocery store-bought lean meat from cows, pigs, and chickens works, too. Bone marrow or brains of animals were both favorites of pre-civilization hunter-gathers. (p 27) For most of us the thought of eating bone marrow and brains is repulsive. But it gets worse.
No mention is made by Paleo experts about the frequent and habitual practices of nutritional cannibalism by hunter-gather societies. (Nutritional cannibalism refers to the consumption of human flesh for its taste or nutritional value.) Archeologists have found bones of our ancestors from a million years ago with de-fleshing marks and evidence of bone smashing to get at the marrow inside; there are signs that the victims also had their brains eaten. Children were not off the menu. And we are supposed to eat the favorite meats of our uncivilized, pre-Agriculture Revolution, hunter-gather, ancestors?
The Paleo Diet Is a Nutritional Nightmare
By nature, the Paleo Diet is based on artery-clogging saturated fats and cholesterol, and bone-damaging, acidic proteins from animal foods. Respected researchers find that those modern-day hunter-gather populations who base their diets on meat, such as the Inuits (Eskimos), suffer from heart disease and other forms of atherosclerosis, and those modern-day hunter-gathers who base their diets on plant foods (starches) are free of these diseases. Osteoporosis, from their high animal food-based diets, is also epidemic among meat and fish consuming hunter-gathers, specifically the Inuits.
In an attempt to defend eating animals, Paleo teachers believe the harmful nutrients from these foods are counteracted by the addition of non-starchy fruits and vegetables, and nuts and seeds.
Furthermore, according to Dr. Cordain, a diet very high in animal protein foods would cause a person to become seriously ill with nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, and eventually death from protein toxicity (also known as “rabbit starvation”). (p 105). For most people the dietary ceiling for protein is 200 to 300 grams a day or about 30 to 40 percent of the normal daily calorie intake. The Paleo Diet is as high as 35% protein. (p 24) Contradicting his warnings, Dr. Cordain consistently and frequently emphasizes that “Protein is the dieter’s friend.” (p 48).
Eating animal-derived foods causes our most common diseases for many well-established reasons, including the indisputable facts that they contain no dietary fiber, are filthy with disease-causing microbes (including mad cow prions, and E. coli and salmonella bacteria), and contain the highest levels of poisonous environmental chemicals found in the food chain. Remember, disease-causing red meats, poultry, fish, and eggs make up 55% of the Paleo Diet.
The June 21, 2012 issue of the British Medical Journal presented the latest updates on the long-term health hazards of low-carbohydrate, high-protein diets, and reported that, “In particular, women had a 5% higher incidence of cardiovascular disease (heart disease) for each tenth of an increase in the low carbohydrate-high protein score, yielding a 62% higher incidence among women in the highest categories of low carbohydrate-high protein diets compared with the lowest.” These low-carb diets, from Atkins to Paleo, are simply dangerous.
Paleo Nutrition Contradicts the Obvious: Most People Have Lived on Starch-based Diets
All large populations of trim, healthy people, throughout verifiable human history, have obtained the bulk of their calories from starch. Examples of once-thriving people include Japanese, Chinese, and other Asians eating sweet potatoes, buckwheat, and/or rice; Incas in South America eating potatoes; Mayans and Aztecs in Central America eating corn; and Egyptians in the Middle East eating wheat. There have been only a few small isolated populations of primitive people, such as the Arctic Eskimos, living at the extremes of the environment, who have eaten otherwise.
Therefore, scientific documentation of what people have eaten over the past thirteen thousand years convincingly supports that starch, not animals, is the traditional diet of people.
Men and women following diets based on grains, legumes, and starchy vegetables have accomplished most of the great feats in history. The ancient conquerors of Europe and Asia, including the armies of Alexander the Great (356 - 323 BC) and Genghis Khan (1162 - 1227 AD) consumed starch-based diets. Caesar’s legions complained when they had too much meat in their diet and preferred to do their fighting on grains. Primarily six foods: barley, maize (corn), millet, potatoes, rice, and wheat, have fueled the caloric engines of human civilization.
The longest living populations on planet Earth today live on starch-based (low-animal food) diets. These include people from Okinawa, Japan; Sardinia, Italy; Nicoya, Costa Rica; Ikaria, Greece; and the Seventh Day Adventists in Loma Linda, California, who live in what are called the “Blue Zones.”
The most effective diets ever used to cure people of common day illnesses, like coronary heart disease, type-2 diabetes, hypertension, hypercholesterolemia, arthritis, and obesity minimize animal foods and require people eat the bulk of their calories from starches, including grains, legumes, and potatoes (foods forbidden to Paleo eaters). Medical giants in starch-based diet-therapy, include Walter Kempner MD, the founder of the Rice Diet at Duke University; Nathan Pritikin; and Roy Swank, MD, founder of the dietary treatment of multiple sclerosis at Oregon Health & Science University.
Widespread Adoption of the Paleo Diet Would Soon Become an Ecological Disaster
The 2006 United Nations’ report Livestock’s Long Shadow: Environmental Issues and Options concludes: “Livestock have a substantial impact on the world’s water, land and biodiversity resources and contribute significantly to climate change. Animal agriculture produces 18 percent of the world’s greenhouse gas emissions (CO2 equivalents), compared with 13.5 percent from all forms of transportation combined.
This report (Livestock’s Long Shadow) from the World Health Organization is a conservative estimate of the destruction caused by the very foods that the Paleo Diet recommends in abundance. Calculations by the World Watch Institute find that over 51 percent of the global warming gases are the result of raising animals for people to eat. A recent report from U.S. Geological Survey estimates that it takes 4,000 to 18,000 gallons of water to produce the beef used to make one juicy hamburger. Every person that Paleo gurus convince to follow an animal food-based diet brings us one more step closer to the end of the world, as we know it.
Civilizations Could Not Have Thrived on the Paleo Diet
According to Dr. Cordain, “The Agriculture Revolution changed the world and allowed civilizations—cities, culture, technological and medical achievements, and scientific knowledge—to develop.” (p 43) In other words, if people had remained on a diet of mostly animal foods (assuming our ancestors actually did), we would still be living in the Stone Age. Fortunately, the Agriculture Revolution, with the efficient production of grains, legumes, and potatoes—the very foods forbidden by the Paleo Diet—allowed us to become civilized.
Dr. Cordain finishes his 2011 revision of his national best-selling book The Paleo Diet by warning, “Without them (starches, like wheat, rice, corn, and potatoes), the world could probably support one-tenth or less of our present population…” (p 215) Choose 10 close friends and family members. Which nine should die so that the Paleo people can have their way? There is a better way and that is The Starch Solution.0 -
I don't think that anyone wants to spend the time or energy on countering what you've said so here are some highlights:
1. Saturated fat is NOT proved to cause heart attacks. High fat diets with high consumption of grains and sugar can contribute however. The 3 together are a cocktail of fail for the human body. Eliminate grains and reduce sugar and saturated fat consumed through diet shows again and again to REDUCE cholesterol in humans. You'll find tons of studies disputing this, but the growing thousands of people with their own blood results showing the opposite can't all be flukes.
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This is exactly what I mean when I say that arguing with Paleos is like arguing with religious fundamentalists. There have been thousands of studies including some of the largest and most far reaching longitudinal studies ever on this subject in a number of different countries, and all show the same thing: diets high in fat are definitively correlated with heart diseases and cancer, along with other chronic diseases such as osteoporosis.
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2. The average lifespan of a caveman was not 25 years. Read a book or study on anthropology and you'll see that there are many remains of our ancestors that suggest that these people lived into their 80s routinely. Yes there were MUCH higher death rates for children and infants, but unless you were killed by war or accidents chances are you lived pretty long. The average human lifespan actually went DOWN in the middle ages when more grain based agricultrure was introduced.
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Do you know what "average" means? There are people today who live to be 105 years old. That does not mean that the average human lives to be 105 years old. I am very familiar with physical anthropology (quite knowledgable about classical archaeology)
and best estimates are that Upper Paleolithic/Neolithic life expectancy was about 35 years.
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3. There is no way the human species would be around AT ALL if our ancestors had "crap" diets that left them prone to disease and death.
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I guess that depends on what you call "crap." Do you like eating termites? slugs? worms? the rotting entrails of a dead animal?
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4. Cavemen and dinosaurs didn't exist at the same time.
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I agree.She may have been talking about sabre tooth tigers and wooly mammoths, however.
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Paleo is a way of life not a diet. There is a Paleo/Primal group here on MFP.
Paleo appears to be the latest incarnation of the Atkins diet. It's only a matter of time before paleo cupcakes and bread can be found along side the Wonder bread. And when paleo junk-food goes mainstream, paleo will cease to be an effective weight loss method for the majority of people. Then a new diet will gain popularity.
Same thing happened to gluten free! I follow a lot of paleo recipes bc they are dairy free and gluten free which I'm actually allergic too. Watching the hoardes of Gf nasty products come on the market is appalling. People are tired of feeling like crap bloated and nasty and quiz me on the "best" bread. Mass produced Gf bread filled with sugar alcohols and calories will definitely make you feel better.. Yep.
I could care less if there is a primal or paleo or clean.. Whatever. Just get rid of the crap.
To the OP Stop goi g on a diet that is 2 weeks or 30 days. If you can't follow it long term don't start it.0 -
*ETA: That is, unless you're stuck in the 80s and earlier and still believe that "fat makes you fat" and "saturated fat clogs your arteries".
Fat was once the boogeyman, making us fat and sick. And it was wrong.
Any chance that in 30 years we might see that we have similarly overreacted to the modern boogeyman, grains?
To answer the OP:
The Paleo and Primal diets seem fairly healthy to me. But I don't accept that grains are making us fat and responsible for every disease under the sun. There's really no evidence to suggest that. I have been interested in the diet and have done my research. I couldn't find any evidence for most of the claims of the diets, like anti-nutrients in beans, anywhere outside of Paleo/Primal sites. So try the diet and see if it's right for you. If it's not, don't sweat it. You are not doomed to bad health because you want a bowl of cheerios or some peanut butter.
I tried the diet and had no success with it, lost no weight and got very sick. Those things could have just coincided with the time I was on the diet, and not as a result of the diet, but that along with a deep dislike for the anointed king of broscience Mark Sisson, lead me to a different way of life that I'm better suited for.0 -
Thanks everyone! I appreciate all of the advice & information. I have done some addtional research and know what I want to do! As always MFP members have been the best support system!! Thanks again!0
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I am going to regret coming here, since I have frequently argued with Paleos, and it is very much like trying to argue with people who believe the earth is 6,000 years old and God put dinosaur bones here to test our faith. Paleo's know little or nothing about anthropology, physiology, and dare I say, health. It is a fad diet, and this admittedly prejudiced article says much of what I would say about Paleo, but I would go much further:
The Paleo Diet Is Uncivilized (And Unhealthy And Untrue)
John McDougall, MD | 06/30/12
Low-carbohydrate (low-carb) diets are fueling the destruction of human health and our planet Earth. “Low-carbohydrate” means a diet high in animal foods and low in plant foods. Only plants synthesize carbohydrates (sugars). The body parts of animals, including red meat, poultry, seafood, and fish, and eggs, contain no carbohydrates. Animal secretions (like mammalian milk) contain sugars synthesized by plants (the cow eats the grass that made the sugar). The original Atkins Diet is the ultimate in low-carb eating. This diet works by starving the human body of carbohydrates in order to induce a state of illness (ketosis), which can result in weight loss. People become too sick to eat too much.
In an attempt to remedy the obvious harms to human health caused by very low-carb eating, apologists (including the Atkins Nutritionals) have added fruits and non-starchy vegetables to their programs. This effort is supposed to disguise, and compensate for, the unhealthy effects of consuming animal foods at every meal.
The Paleo Diet: The Newest Promoter of Eating the Planet and Its Inhabitants to Death
The Paleo Diet (also referred to as the Paleolithic Diet, the Paleodiet, the Caveman Diet, the Stone Age Diet, and the Hunter-Gatherer Diet) is the most recent and popular approach to weight loss, improved health, and longevity, and is accomplished by eating large amounts of animal-derived foods (which are no-carbohydrate, and high-protein and/or high-fat foods). The Paleo Diet consists mainly of meat, poultry, shellfish, fish, and eggs; non-starchy orange, green, and yellow vegetables; and fruits and nuts. This approach forbids starches, including all grains, legumes, and potatoes. To its credit it also excludes dairy products and refined sugars. Salt and processed oils (with the exception of olive oil) are also excluded.
This nutritional plan is based on the presumption that our ancestors, living during the Paleolithic era—a period of time from 10,000 to 2.5 million years ago—were nourished primarily by animal foods. According the basic theory behind Paleo dieting, as a result of more than two millions of years of evolution, we are now genetically adapted to eat what the hunter-gathers ate—mostly animal foods.
The Paleo Diet book (revised 2011) is “the bible” for followers of this approach (page numbers from this book are found in parenthesis in this article). Written by Loren Cordain, PhD, Professor in the Department of Health and Exercise Science at Colorado State University, the Paleo Diet is said to be “the one and only diet that ideally fits our genetic makeup.” (p 3) The author claims that every human being on Earth ate this way for the past 2.5 million years, until the dawn of the Agriculture Revolution (10,000 years ago), when grains, legumes, and potatoes were introduced worldwide. According to Dr. Cordain, “...there wasn’t a single person who did not follow the Paleo Diet.” (p 71). With the development of agriculture about 10,000 years ago, “Paleo experts” teach that human health and longevity plummeted. By no coincidence, the Agriculture Revolution marks the dawn of civilization. “Civilization” encompasses our advanced state of intellectual, cultural, and material development, marked by progress in the arts, music, sciences, languages, writing, computers, transportation, and politics.
“If You Repeat a Lie Often Enough, It becomes the Truth”
Teachers of Paleo nutrition claim our ancient ancestors were hunter-gathers with an emphasis on hunting, regardless of what the bulk of current scientific research reports. They base their hypothesis largely upon a flawed review of contemporary hunter-gathers.
Primates, including humans, have practiced hunting and gathering for millions of years. I know of no large populations of primates who have been strict vegans (ate no animal foods at all). However, plants have, with very few exceptions, provided the bulk of the calories for almost all primates. This truth has been unpopular in part because of a well-recognized human trait, sexism. Grandparents, women, and children did the gathering, while men hunted. Glory always goes to the hunters.
When asked about the commonly held idea that ancient people were primarily meat-eaters, the highly respected anthropologist, Nathanial Dominy, PhD, from Dartmouth College responded, “That’s a myth. Hunter-gathers, the majority of their calories come from plant foods…meat is just too unpredictable.” After studying the bones, teeth, and genetics of primates for his entire career as a biological anthropologist, Dr. Dominy, states, “Humans might be more appropriately described as ‘starchivores.’”
Paleo diet proponents spare no effort to ignore and distort science. The general public is at their mercy until they look for themselves at recent publications from the major scientific journals:
* Research published in the journal Nature (on June 27, 2012) reports that almost the entire diet of our very early human ancestors, dating from 2 million years ago, consisted of leaves, fruits, wood, and bark—a diet similar to modern day chimpanzees.
* According to research presented in a 2009 issue of Science, people living in what is now Mozambique, along the eastern coast of Africa, may have followed a diet based on the cereal grass sorghum as long as 105,000 years ago.
* Research presented in a 2011 issue of Proceedings of the National Academy of Science shows that even the Neanderthals ate a variety of plant foods; starch grains have been found on the teeth of their skeletons everywhere from the warm eastern Mediterranean to chilly northwestern Europe. It appears they even cooked, and otherwise prepared, plant foods to make them more digestible—44,000 years ago.
* A 2010 issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Science reported that starch grains from wild plants were identified on grinding tools at archeological sites dating back to the Paleolithic period in Italy, Russia, and the Czech Republic. These findings suggest that processing vegetables and starches, and possibly grinding them into flour, was a widespread practice in Europe as far back as 30,000 years ago, or even earlier.
Falsehoods leading the general public to choose foods that threaten our very existence have been challenged for decades, but as I have said before, people like to hear good news about their bad habits; so the Paleo Diet continues to get a highly visible platform with too little public debate.
The Hunter-gather Diet Is Repulsive
Dr. Cordain writes, “For most of us, the thought of eating organs is not only repulsive, but is also not practical as we simply do not have access to wild game.” (p 131). In addition to the usual beef, veal, pork, chicken, and fish, a Paleo follower is required to eat; alligator, bear, kangaroo, deer, rattlesnake, and wild boar are also on the menu. Mail-order suppliers for these wild animals are provided in his book.
More than half (55%) of a Paleo dieter’s food comes from lean meats, organ meats, fish, and seafood. (p 24) Eating wild animals is preferred, but grocery store-bought lean meat from cows, pigs, and chickens works, too. Bone marrow or brains of animals were both favorites of pre-civilization hunter-gathers. (p 27) For most of us the thought of eating bone marrow and brains is repulsive. But it gets worse.
No mention is made by Paleo experts about the frequent and habitual practices of nutritional cannibalism by hunter-gather societies. (Nutritional cannibalism refers to the consumption of human flesh for its taste or nutritional value.) Archeologists have found bones of our ancestors from a million years ago with de-fleshing marks and evidence of bone smashing to get at the marrow inside; there are signs that the victims also had their brains eaten. Children were not off the menu. And we are supposed to eat the favorite meats of our uncivilized, pre-Agriculture Revolution, hunter-gather, ancestors?
The Paleo Diet Is a Nutritional Nightmare
By nature, the Paleo Diet is based on artery-clogging saturated fats and cholesterol, and bone-damaging, acidic proteins from animal foods. Respected researchers find that those modern-day hunter-gather populations who base their diets on meat, such as the Inuits (Eskimos), suffer from heart disease and other forms of atherosclerosis, and those modern-day hunter-gathers who base their diets on plant foods (starches) are free of these diseases. Osteoporosis, from their high animal food-based diets, is also epidemic among meat and fish consuming hunter-gathers, specifically the Inuits.
In an attempt to defend eating animals, Paleo teachers believe the harmful nutrients from these foods are counteracted by the addition of non-starchy fruits and vegetables, and nuts and seeds.
Furthermore, according to Dr. Cordain, a diet very high in animal protein foods would cause a person to become seriously ill with nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, and eventually death from protein toxicity (also known as “rabbit starvation”). (p 105). For most people the dietary ceiling for protein is 200 to 300 grams a day or about 30 to 40 percent of the normal daily calorie intake. The Paleo Diet is as high as 35% protein. (p 24) Contradicting his warnings, Dr. Cordain consistently and frequently emphasizes that “Protein is the dieter’s friend.” (p 48).
Eating animal-derived foods causes our most common diseases for many well-established reasons, including the indisputable facts that they contain no dietary fiber, are filthy with disease-causing microbes (including mad cow prions, and E. coli and salmonella bacteria), and contain the highest levels of poisonous environmental chemicals found in the food chain. Remember, disease-causing red meats, poultry, fish, and eggs make up 55% of the Paleo Diet.
The June 21, 2012 issue of the British Medical Journal presented the latest updates on the long-term health hazards of low-carbohydrate, high-protein diets, and reported that, “In particular, women had a 5% higher incidence of cardiovascular disease (heart disease) for each tenth of an increase in the low carbohydrate-high protein score, yielding a 62% higher incidence among women in the highest categories of low carbohydrate-high protein diets compared with the lowest.” These low-carb diets, from Atkins to Paleo, are simply dangerous.
Paleo Nutrition Contradicts the Obvious: Most People Have Lived on Starch-based Diets
All large populations of trim, healthy people, throughout verifiable human history, have obtained the bulk of their calories from starch. Examples of once-thriving people include Japanese, Chinese, and other Asians eating sweet potatoes, buckwheat, and/or rice; Incas in South America eating potatoes; Mayans and Aztecs in Central America eating corn; and Egyptians in the Middle East eating wheat. There have been only a few small isolated populations of primitive people, such as the Arctic Eskimos, living at the extremes of the environment, who have eaten otherwise.
Therefore, scientific documentation of what people have eaten over the past thirteen thousand years convincingly supports that starch, not animals, is the traditional diet of people.
Men and women following diets based on grains, legumes, and starchy vegetables have accomplished most of the great feats in history. The ancient conquerors of Europe and Asia, including the armies of Alexander the Great (356 - 323 BC) and Genghis Khan (1162 - 1227 AD) consumed starch-based diets. Caesar’s legions complained when they had too much meat in their diet and preferred to do their fighting on grains. Primarily six foods: barley, maize (corn), millet, potatoes, rice, and wheat, have fueled the caloric engines of human civilization.
The longest living populations on planet Earth today live on starch-based (low-animal food) diets. These include people from Okinawa, Japan; Sardinia, Italy; Nicoya, Costa Rica; Ikaria, Greece; and the Seventh Day Adventists in Loma Linda, California, who live in what are called the “Blue Zones.”
The most effective diets ever used to cure people of common day illnesses, like coronary heart disease, type-2 diabetes, hypertension, hypercholesterolemia, arthritis, and obesity minimize animal foods and require people eat the bulk of their calories from starches, including grains, legumes, and potatoes (foods forbidden to Paleo eaters). Medical giants in starch-based diet-therapy, include Walter Kempner MD, the founder of the Rice Diet at Duke University; Nathan Pritikin; and Roy Swank, MD, founder of the dietary treatment of multiple sclerosis at Oregon Health & Science University.
Widespread Adoption of the Paleo Diet Would Soon Become an Ecological Disaster
The 2006 United Nations’ report Livestock’s Long Shadow: Environmental Issues and Options concludes: “Livestock have a substantial impact on the world’s water, land and biodiversity resources and contribute significantly to climate change. Animal agriculture produces 18 percent of the world’s greenhouse gas emissions (CO2 equivalents), compared with 13.5 percent from all forms of transportation combined.
This report (Livestock’s Long Shadow) from the World Health Organization is a conservative estimate of the destruction caused by the very foods that the Paleo Diet recommends in abundance. Calculations by the World Watch Institute find that over 51 percent of the global warming gases are the result of raising animals for people to eat. A recent report from U.S. Geological Survey estimates that it takes 4,000 to 18,000 gallons of water to produce the beef used to make one juicy hamburger. Every person that Paleo gurus convince to follow an animal food-based diet brings us one more step closer to the end of the world, as we know it.
Civilizations Could Not Have Thrived on the Paleo Diet
According to Dr. Cordain, “The Agriculture Revolution changed the world and allowed civilizations—cities, culture, technological and medical achievements, and scientific knowledge—to develop.” (p 43) In other words, if people had remained on a diet of mostly animal foods (assuming our ancestors actually did), we would still be living in the Stone Age. Fortunately, the Agriculture Revolution, with the efficient production of grains, legumes, and potatoes—the very foods forbidden by the Paleo Diet—allowed us to become civilized.
Dr. Cordain finishes his 2011 revision of his national best-selling book The Paleo Diet by warning, “Without them (starches, like wheat, rice, corn, and potatoes), the world could probably support one-tenth or less of our present population…” (p 215) Choose 10 close friends and family members. Which nine should die so that the Paleo people can have their way? There is a better way and that is The Starch Solution.
Vegesaurus: why are you in this post with your misinformation? The title of the post is "Have any of you tried the Paleo Diet? Success??" You have obviously not tried it. You know nothing about it.
I've read your misinformation so many times that it is clear that it is a waste of time to respond to you. Stay on your vegan posts, please, unless you actually want to strive to open your mind and challenge your beliefs (that you are passing off as facts). When i first started on MFP I was stupid enough to get on the posts "Paleo or Vegan" and there you were. Now I stay away; please afford us the same courtesy.0 -
Vegesaurus: why are you in this post with your misinformation? The title of the post is "Have any of you tried the Paleo Diet? Success??" You have obviously not tried it. You know nothing about it.
I've read your misinformation so many times that it is clear that it is a waste of time to respond to you. Stay on your vegan posts, please, unless you actually want to strive to open your mind and challenge your beliefs (that you are passing off as facts). When i first started on MFP I was stupid enough to get on the posts "Paleo or Vegan" and there you were. Now I stay away; please afford us the same courtesy.
*********************************
Exactly the response I would expect from you. Were you upset about the parts about the Inuits? Or the fact that the article quotes quack journals like Nature and Science for actual scientific facts as opposed to the pop science nonsense that Paleos are so used to and believe so readily.
The OP asked for information on the Paleo Diet. Suppose she had said she was contemplating taking arsenic in large doses. Would it be off topic to tell her that arsenic was poison, and to give top scientific journals as sources for that information? Well, guess what? Paleo is poison.0 -
How is VegesaurusRex's presence on this thread any different than you coming to a vegan thread on August 17th to present your belief that animals are here to be preyed upon? To refresh your memory:
Akimajuktuq
Joined Mar 2012
Posts: 234
Topic: Considering trying a Vegan diet? Fri 08/17/12 02:05 PM
QUOTE:
Oh, something else to consider about being vegan. It's not just about what you eat. Most vegans don't eat animal products or use them in any way. This includes clothing. I won't buy anything leather myself and try my best not to use anything tested on animals.
I was vegan for years and should have stayed that way. I probably wouldn't have gone through the last 4 years of hell.
You need to realize you get slammed for simply saying you want to be vegan. Look into and if it's for you then do it. Research facts and don't takeany forum posts anywhere to be facts.
********************************************************************************************************************************************************
I have read your posts and appreciate your opinions.
I live in the Arctic where lots of people still eat wild animals (the people that have stopped are getting disease) and wear their skins. It really is a necessity here. IMO, these animals live the way they were meant to, and that includes being preyed upon by other animals.
I'd like to offer you this thought regarding the ethical issues of wearing animal products: There can also be ethical issues with wearing synthetic materials. Most are made from petroleum products, in factories, sometimes by child labour, and do not readily decompose when discarded. Some other materials, such as cotton, have ethical issues due to agricultural processes.
I too, don't use products tested on animals. I do wear animal products and synthetics but i am aware of my footprint and the costs to the environment of my choices. I do the best I can to avoid animal products that come from industrial farming or that were treated in unethical ways (for example: certain types of fishing methods create high amounts of bycatch that is subsequently wasted). I'm far from perfect, and where I live creates some challenges, but i think awareness is very important in the journey to making positive changes.
I don't slam vegans, but I don't know why they sometimes slam me when I present my opinions. I did try vegan and it was not a healthy diet for ME. Certainly it probably works well for some other people, but not everyone.0 -
holy eating hell batman...I thought the question was have you tried it and was it successful....not should you or shouldn't you!
Research, if you think it might be right for you give it a go....every time you ask these kinda questions on a forum like this it will inevitably fall into an arguement. Which in itself I guess provides an element of research.
I personally decided it wasnt for me..but the concept seemed sound as the only time I have ever successfully lost weight, felt great doing it and not been a slave to my cravings is when I cut out the grains and keep the unprocessed foods to a minimum (I like cheese and yogurt to much to go paleo)
I am a firm believer in suck it and see...and pay attention to what your body says in reply to it.0 -
holy eating hell batman...I thought the question was have you tried it and was it successful....not should you or shouldn't you!
Research, if you think it might be right for you give it a go....every time you ask these kinda questions on a forum like this it will inevitably fall into an arguement. Which in itself I guess provides an element of research.
I personally decided it wasnt for me..but the concept seemed sound as the only time I have ever successfully lost weight, felt great doing it and not been a slave to my cravings is when I cut out the grains and keep the unprocessed foods to a minimum (I like cheese and yogurt to much to go paleo)
I am a firm believer in suck it and see...and pay attention to what your body says in reply to it.
I agree with restricting foods which trigger overeating. Knowing yourself is a critical thing to the process, I think.
For me, combinations of refined flour, sugar, fat and salt are a recipe for stuffing myself and setting myself up for prolonged cravings. But, sprouted wheat bread, oatmeal, brown rice and other whole grains don't seem to trigger that same reaction. So, totally limiting whole food groups isn't always necessary, in my opinion, but each person needs to find what works for them.
That said, I have eliminated whole food groups (meat and dairy), but my reasons aren't health and diet related. It demonstrates to me that maintaining good health with major food restrictions is possible, though.0 -
How is VegesaurusRex's presence on this thread any different than you coming to a vegan thread on August 17th to present your belief that animals are here to be preyed upon? To refresh your memory:
Akimajuktuq
Joined Mar 2012
Posts: 234
Topic: Considering trying a Vegan diet? Fri 08/17/12 02:05 PM
QUOTE:
Oh, something else to consider about being vegan. It's not just about what you eat. Most vegans don't eat animal products or use them in any way. This includes clothing. I won't buy anything leather myself and try my best not to use anything tested on animals.
I was vegan for years and should have stayed that way. I probably wouldn't have gone through the last 4 years of hell.
You need to realize you get slammed for simply saying you want to be vegan. Look into and if it's for you then do it. Research facts and don't takeany forum posts anywhere to be facts.
********************************************************************************************************************************************************
I have read your posts and appreciate your opinions.
I live in the Arctic where lots of people still eat wild animals (the people that have stopped are getting disease) and wear their skins. It really is a necessity here. IMO, these animals live the way they were meant to, and that includes being preyed upon by other animals.
I'd like to offer you this thought regarding the ethical issues of wearing animal products: There can also be ethical issues with wearing synthetic materials. Most are made from petroleum products, in factories, sometimes by child labour, and do not readily decompose when discarded. Some other materials, such as cotton, have ethical issues due to agricultural processes.
I too, don't use products tested on animals. I do wear animal products and synthetics but i am aware of my footprint and the costs to the environment of my choices. I do the best I can to avoid animal products that come from industrial farming or that were treated in unethical ways (for example: certain types of fishing methods create high amounts of bycatch that is subsequently wasted). I'm far from perfect, and where I live creates some challenges, but i think awareness is very important in the journey to making positive changes.
I don't slam vegans, but I don't know why they sometimes slam me when I present my opinions. I did try vegan and it was not a healthy diet for ME. Certainly it probably works well for some other people, but not everyone.
I did make the mistake of commenting on that post and others titled "Paleo or Vegan" or something similar. I am avoiding them now. I have no problems with difference of opinion, but I cannot stand opinions touted as FACT and disrespecting others. There is nothing in my post that is disrespectful or attacking vegans. I am merely presenting a view that may have never been considered. I challenge myself, and my beliefs, all the time as well.
I am not against vegans, but no, I do not understand the "ethical" choice for it and I've commented why before.
The comments from Vegasaurus will no longer get reasonable, logical comments from me, but I should be able to share my opinions on posts that are applicable to me. Such as this one.0 -
Vegesaurus: why are you in this post with your misinformation? The title of the post is "Have any of you tried the Paleo Diet? Success??" You have obviously not tried it. You know nothing about it.
I've read your misinformation so many times that it is clear that it is a waste of time to respond to you. Stay on your vegan posts, please, unless you actually want to strive to open your mind and challenge your beliefs (that you are passing off as facts). When i first started on MFP I was stupid enough to get on the posts "Paleo or Vegan" and there you were. Now I stay away; please afford us the same courtesy.
*********************************
Exactly the response I would expect from you. Were you upset about the parts about the Inuits? Or the fact that the article quotes quack journals like Nature and Science for actual scientific facts as opposed to the pop science nonsense that Paleos are so used to and believe so readily.
The OP asked for information on the Paleo Diet. Suppose she had said she was contemplating taking arsenic in large doses. Would it be off topic to tell her that arsenic was poison, and to give top scientific journals as sources for that information? Well, guess what? Paleo is poison.
I no longer fully read your posts because you are not presenting information. I'm not upset about the part about Inuit, because you know almost nothing, and certainly have no real experience, and I live with Inuit. Different groups had different practices. Cannibalism was extremely taboo and Inuit were ruled by taboos.
BTW, I don't just read popular journals. I don't just study health and nutrition, but also history. I also look around me and see what's going on. I also don't form my opinions based purely on the opinions of others (article writers). I actually value real-life experience. Maybe you can't relate to me, nor me to you, but have some clue that we should respectfully disagree based on real-life experience.
Spreading opinions as though they are fact is harmful, that's why your posts are worth ignoring. No, what i think isn't for everyone and I usually specify that. I do NOT promote my opinions as fact. That irks me.0 -
Bump0
-
How is VegesaurusRex's presence on this thread any different than you coming to a vegan thread on August 17th to present your belief that animals are here to be preyed upon? To refresh your memory:
Akimajuktuq
Joined Mar 2012
Posts: 234
Topic: Considering trying a Vegan diet? Fri 08/17/12 02:05 PM
QUOTE:
Oh, something else to consider about being vegan. It's not just about what you eat. Most vegans don't eat animal products or use them in any way. This includes clothing. I won't buy anything leather myself and try my best not to use anything tested on animals.
I was vegan for years and should have stayed that way. I probably wouldn't have gone through the last 4 years of hell.
You need to realize you get slammed for simply saying you want to be vegan. Look into and if it's for you then do it. Research facts and don't takeany forum posts anywhere to be facts.
********************************************************************************************************************************************************
I have read your posts and appreciate your opinions.
I live in the Arctic where lots of people still eat wild animals (the people that have stopped are getting disease) and wear their skins. It really is a necessity here. IMO, these animals live the way they were meant to, and that includes being preyed upon by other animals.
I'd like to offer you this thought regarding the ethical issues of wearing animal products: There can also be ethical issues with wearing synthetic materials. Most are made from petroleum products, in factories, sometimes by child labour, and do not readily decompose when discarded. Some other materials, such as cotton, have ethical issues due to agricultural processes.
I too, don't use products tested on animals. I do wear animal products and synthetics but i am aware of my footprint and the costs to the environment of my choices. I do the best I can to avoid animal products that come from industrial farming or that were treated in unethical ways (for example: certain types of fishing methods create high amounts of bycatch that is subsequently wasted). I'm far from perfect, and where I live creates some challenges, but i think awareness is very important in the journey to making positive changes.
I don't slam vegans, but I don't know why they sometimes slam me when I present my opinions. I did try vegan and it was not a healthy diet for ME. Certainly it probably works well for some other people, but not everyone.
I did make the mistake of commenting on that post and others titled "Paleo or Vegan" or something similar. I am avoiding them now. I have no problems with difference of opinion, but I cannot stand opinions touted as FACT and disrespecting others. There is nothing in my post that is disrespectful or attacking vegans. I am merely presenting a view that may have never been considered. I challenge myself, and my beliefs, all the time as well.
I am not against vegans, but no, I do not understand the "ethical" choice for it and I've commented why before.
The comments from Vegasaurus will no longer get reasonable, logical comments from me, but I should be able to share my opinions on posts that are applicable to me. Such as this one.
When a prospective vegan posts a thread seeking advice on going vegan, I am personally irked by detractors who come on with cautionary tales to tell. Inwardly, I might think 'Why are they here and why are they trying to convince the OP to back away from veganism?' It sounds like you may be feeling somewhat similarly now that the subject is paleo.
I do have an opinion on paleo, just as you do on veganism. Looking at the top 20 diet books of 2012, paleo and veganism are both 'hot' this year. I classify both as diet fads which will fade. It may surprise you to think that I think of the vegan diet as a fad, but I do when it is presented as a weight loss panacea. The public attention span is very short and when there's a new flavor diet book that promises fast-n-easy weight loss, paleo and vegan diet books will get tossed in the garbage can, and that will be that. There will still be people who follow ancestral diets and ethical vegans who continue plodding along however.0 -
When a prospective vegan posts a thread seeking advice on going vegan, I am personally irked by detractors who come on with cautionary tales to tell. Inwardly, I might think 'Why are they here and why are they trying to convince the OP to back away from veganism?' It sounds like you may be feeling somewhat similarly now that the subject is paleo.
I do have an opinion on paleo, just as you do on veganism. Looking at the top 20 diet books of 2012, paleo and veganism are both 'hot' this year. I classify both as diet fads which will fade. It may surprise you to think that I think of the vegan diet as a fad, but I do when it is presented as a weight loss panacea. The public attention span is very short and when there's a new flavor diet book that promises fast-n-easy weight loss, paleo and vegan diet books will get tossed in the garbage can, and that will be that. There will still be ancestral diets and ethical vegans who continue plodding along however.
Dagnabbit! I wish you'd stop saying things with which I completely agree. (Although having never read many "diet books" in my lifetime, I was not aware that paleo (or veganism, for that matter) was being touted for its a "weight loss" as much as for the purported health benefits.)
(For the record, I still think a veg*n diet is less-than-ideal for optimal human performance, but I can at least appreciate your seemingly reasoned, whole foods approach to it.)0 -
When a prospective vegan posts a thread seeking advice on going vegan, I am personally irked by detractors who come on with cautionary tales to tell. Inwardly, I might think 'Why are they here and why are they trying to convince the OP to back away from veganism?' It sounds like you may be feeling somewhat similarly now that the subject is paleo.
I do have an opinion on paleo, just as you do on veganism. Looking at the top 20 diet books of 2012, paleo and veganism are both 'hot' this year. I classify both as diet fads which will fade. It may surprise you to think that I think of the vegan diet as a fad, but I do when it is presented as a weight loss panacea. The public attention span is very short and when there's a new flavor diet book that promises fast-n-easy weight loss, paleo and vegan diet books will get tossed in the garbage can, and that will be that. There will still be ancestral diets and ethical vegans who continue plodding along however.
Dagnabbit! I wish you'd stop saying things with which I completely agree. (Although having never read many "diet books" in my lifetime, I was not aware that paleo (or veganism, for that matter) was being touted for its a "weight loss" as much as for the purported health benefits.)
(For the record, I still think a veg*n diet is less-than-ideal for optimal human performance, but I can at least appreciate your seemingly reasoned, whole foods approach to it.)
I appreciate that we are finding common ground. I believe the emphasis on fresh, unprocessed foods in both the paleo and whole food vegan camps is a common thread. I do think that the broad appeal of our diets will distort and dilute them, at least for a while. I really believe that. I just saw a paleo cupcake recipe with almond flour, maple syrup, coconut oil, etc. I'm sure I could eat 10 of those babies without even trying. That's when I know that's the end of any paleo advantages to the masses. Same with vegan cupcakes taking over the world, too.
I don't argue health consequences of a vegan diet. I have read a great deal of science in reputable journals, and I'm hopeful I will continue to enjoy peak health for a long time. I've been veg*n for decades, and have none of the common western diseases of affluence that plague many people my age (going on 58).0 -
What would you think of someone who doesn't eat much meat (chicken occasionally) how would they do on a paleo/primal diet?
I eat fish, eggs and sometimes chicken, but I know paleo/primal people mainly get their cals from meats.0 -
I did make the mistake of commenting on that post and others titled "Paleo or Vegan" or something similar.
***************************
The title of the string was, "Considering being a vegan?" Nothing ambiguous about it, and you invited yourself right in, which by the way was fine with me, since I am not afraid of people disagreeing with me. And there were many other Paleos who invited themselves there. Again no problem. Vegans are not sensitive to criticism like Paleos. That is because our philosophy is not based on myths and phony anthropology.
***************************
I am avoiding them now. I have no problems with difference of opinion, but I cannot stand opinions touted as FACT and disrespecting others.
***************************
Gee. We cite journals like Nature and Science and we have OPINIONS. You give anecdotal stories about your family and you have FACT. Like I said, Paleos have an interesting view of fact and fiction.
***************************
There is nothing in my post that is disrespectful or attacking vegans. I am merely presenting a view that may have never been considered. I challenge myself, and my beliefs, all the time as well.
***************************
When we give study after study showing a definitive relationship between eating meat and chronic diseases, when we quote top academic journals supporting our position, and when we quote and refer to REAL anthropological studies as opposed to anthropological pop opinion, it is disrespectful to say we are giving opinion and you are giving fact. Indeed it is just the opposite.
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I am not against vegans, but no, I do not understand the "ethical" choice for it and I've commented why before.
**************************
Are you actually saying that ethical choices are hard for you to understand?
**************************
The comments from Vegasaurus will no longer get reasonable, logical comments from me, but I should be able to share my opinions on posts that are applicable to me. Such as this one.
**************************
My comments have NEVER gotten reasonable comments from you. You give only storys about your family and friends. Obviously you do not understand that anecdotal information has no place in science.
**************************
[/quote]0 -
Vegesaurus: why are you in this post with your misinformation? The title of the post is "Have any of you tried the Paleo Diet? Success??" You have obviously not tried it. You know nothing about it.
I've read your misinformation so many times that it is clear that it is a waste of time to respond to you. Stay on your vegan posts, please, unless you actually want to strive to open your mind and challenge your beliefs (that you are passing off as facts). When i first started on MFP I was stupid enough to get on the posts "Paleo or Vegan" and there you were. Now I stay away; please afford us the same courtesy.
*********************************
Exactly the response I would expect from you. Were you upset about the parts about the Inuits? Or the fact that the article quotes quack journals like Nature and Science for actual scientific facts as opposed to the pop science nonsense that Paleos are so used to and believe so readily.
The OP asked for information on the Paleo Diet. Suppose she had said she was contemplating taking arsenic in large doses. Would it be off topic to tell her that arsenic was poison, and to give top scientific journals as sources for that information? Well, guess what? Paleo is poison.
I no longer fully read your posts because you are not presenting information. I'm not upset about the part about Inuit, because you know almost nothing, and certainly have no real experience, and I live with Inuit. Different groups had different practices. Cannibalism was extremely taboo and Inuit were ruled by taboos.
BTW, I don't just read popular journals. I don't just study health and nutrition, but also history. I also look around me and see what's going on. I also don't form my opinions based purely on the opinions of others (article writers). I actually value real-life experience. Maybe you can't relate to me, nor me to you, but have some clue that we should respectfully disagree based on real-life experience.
Spreading opinions as though they are fact is harmful, that's why your posts are worth ignoring. No, what i think isn't for everyone and I usually specify that. I do NOT promote my opinions as fact. That irks me.
Honestly, I don't know how you could do better than quoting Nature, Science and PNAS. The information I gave here is accurate and scientific. THESE ARE NOT OPINIONS. Nature, Science and PNAS do not publish opinions other than as editorials.0 -
When a prospective vegan posts a thread seeking advice on going vegan, I am personally irked by detractors who come on with cautionary tales to tell. Inwardly, I might think 'Why are they here and why are they trying to convince the OP to back away from veganism?' It sounds like you may be feeling somewhat similarly now that the subject is paleo.
I do have an opinion on paleo, just as you do on veganism. Looking at the top 20 diet books of 2012, paleo and veganism are both 'hot' this year. I classify both as diet fads which will fade. It may surprise you to think that I think of the vegan diet as a fad, but I do when it is presented as a weight loss panacea. The public attention span is very short and when there's a new flavor diet book that promises fast-n-easy weight loss, paleo and vegan diet books will get tossed in the garbage can, and that will be that. There will still be ancestral diets and ethical vegans who continue plodding along however.
Dagnabbit! I wish you'd stop saying things with which I completely agree. (Although having never read many "diet books" in my lifetime, I was not aware that paleo (or veganism, for that matter) was being touted for its a "weight loss" as much as for the purported health benefits.)
(For the record, I still think a veg*n diet is less-than-ideal for optimal human performance, but I can at least appreciate your seemingly reasoned, whole foods approach to it.)
Just to clear this up, VEGANISM is an ethic, that also has health benefits. No study I am aware of has ever shown a relationship between eating fruits and vegetables and getting chronic diseases. Virtually every study ever done on the subject has found a relationship between eating excess meat and chronic diseases. There is no such thing as eating too many fruits and vegetables.0 -
Then I guess fortunately for me, my version of the "paleo" diet involves eating a lot of fruits and vegetables (as well as generous amounts of properly-raised meats).0
-
Then I guess fortunately for me, my version of the "paleo" diet involves eating a lot of fruits and vegetables (as well as generous amounts of properly-raised meats).
Since humans are physiologically herbivores, eating any meat as part of your diet will hurt you. You might want to check out this recent major study (and there are hundreds of others that say the same thing):
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/mar/12/red-meat-death-heart-cancer0 -
Then I guess fortunately for me, my version of the "paleo" diet involves eating a lot of fruits and vegetables (as well as generous amounts of properly-raised meats).
Since humans are physiologically herbivores, eating any meat as part of your diet will hurt you. You might want to check out this recent major study (and there are hundreds of others that say the same thing):
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/mar/12/red-meat-death-heart-cancer
Is that one of those where people misread and confuse correlation with causation? Because I've seen many of those. (On my phone so difficult to follow the link currently.)0 -
Then I guess fortunately for me, my version of the "paleo" diet involves eating a lot of fruits and vegetables (as well as generous amounts of properly-raised meats).
Since humans are physiologically herbivores, eating any meat as part of your diet will hurt you. You might want to check out this recent major study (and there are hundreds of others that say the same thing):
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/mar/12/red-meat-death-heart-cancer
Is that one of those where people misread and confuse correlation with causation? Because I've seen many of those. (On my phone so difficult to follow the link currently.)
Okay, you are in the "Confusing correlation with causation" crowd. I don't know how to put this politely, but people who bring up that argument have usually only had one basic course in statistics, and have never really understood why people do longitudinal studies. I am truly not trying to offend you, but if you believe that any study that does not control for every independent variable does not show causation, then, although you are technically right, you have no clue what statistics is all about. Sorry. Truly I am.
The study was done by the British Heart Association, who have professional statisticians available to review their work. If you believe that this study does not show a definitive correlation between meat eating and chronic diseases, then I have a challenge for you. I would like you to give me a citation to one study, any study, that controls for independent variables, and that concerns human diet, that you feel does show causation. My guess is that you cannot come up with one. Therefore the correlation vs causation argument is merely an excuse for not believing what you do not want to believe.
As for humans being herbivores here is a bit about the Editor of the the American Journal of Cardiology:
William C. Roberts MD has five decades of experience in the field of cardiology, written over 1300 scientific publications, a dozen cardiology textbooks, and has been editor in chief of the American Journal of Cardiology for a quarter of a century. He is arguably the most highly regarded cardiologist in the world today.
In his 2008 editorial "The Cause of Atherosclerosis", published in the peer reviewed journal Nutrition in Clinical Practice, Roberts states that there is a single, sole cause to heart disease: cholesterol. If your total cholesterol is below 150 and LDL is below 70, you are essentially heart attack proof. What is the cause of high cholesterol? Saturated fat and animal products:
Atherosclerosis is easily produced in nonhuman
herbivores (eg, rabbits, monkeys) by feeding them
a high cholesterol (eg, egg yolks) or high saturated
fat (eg, animal fat) diet… And atherosclerosis was not produced in a
minority of rats fed these diets, it was produced in
100% of the animals! Indeed, atherosclerosis is one
of the easiest diseases to produce experimentally,
but the experimental animal must be an herbivore.
It is not possible to produce atherosclerosis in a
carnivore…"
He elaborates in an earlier editorial:
It is virtually impossible, for example, to produce atherosclerosis in a dog even when 100 grams of cholesterol and 120 grams of butter fat are added to its meat ration. (This amount of cholesterol
is approximately 200 times the average amount that human beings in the USA
eat each day!). (The American Journal of Cardiology, 1990, vol. 66,896.)
He then utterly annihilates the human omnivore myth in a single sentence. here it is:
***Because humans get atherosclerosis, and atherosclerosis
is a disease only of herbivores, humans also must be
herbivores.***
At once the insanity of our times comes into razor sharp relief.
Some may debate whether cholesterol is the sole cause of heart disease. It does not matter, the fact remains that atherosclerosis occurs only in herbivores.
If humans were physiological omnivores, heart disease would not exist, let alone be America's #1 killer for over a hundred years.
It may not be the least bit hyperbolic to say that the existence of heart disease in humans is proof that we, as a species, are vegans.
In any case, a low fat vegan diet has been proven again and again to be the cure for heart disease. A mountain of clinical evidence supports this.
According to Roberts, those who are utterly immune to heart disease without the use of statin drugs are pure vegetarian fruit eaters. His own exact words. fruit eaters.0 -
(Won't be at a computer to read the link until later tonight, but will then. Meanwhile, yes, I am well-learned in statistics and other mathematical concepts (even if decades ago)...(a human capability likely developed as a result of meat consumption long ago =P ... )
ETA: And the day I let some online words of someone I don't even know offend me is the day I will hang up my mouse for good.0 -
(Won't be at a computer to read the link until later tonight, but will then. Meanwhile, yes, I am well-learned in statistics and other mathematical concepts (even if decades ago)...(a human capability likely developed as a result of meat consumption long ago =P ... )
ETA: And the day I let some online words of someone I don't even know offend me is the day I will hang up my mouse for good.
Not trying to ruin your day.0
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