heavy lifting and over training
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I would say two things that jump out at me;
i. The volume/workout, seems like too much. If you want to do than many exercises/day I would suggest 3x5 for each.
ii. The other thing that jumps out is the lack of recovery for each body part prior to working it out again (squats one day, next day deads, one day pull-ups, next day row, etc. you need more recovery as the muscle groups are the same even though you are working them from a different angle.
If you want to lift 4 days/week I would suggest splitting the workout and hitting each body part twice/week. I do a 4 day split with the same days as you my A workout is Chest, Shoulders, Triceps, my B workout is Legs, Back, Biceps (for tries and bis I just throw in 1 isolation exercise, 2 sets at the end of the workout).
If those are the exercises you like I would suggest setting it up this way:
Workout A (Monday and Thursday)
5x5 bench press
3x5 overhead dumbbell press
3x5 incline dumbbell press
3x5 standing upright rows
3x5 weighted dips
Workout B (Tuesday and Friday)
5x5 squats
5x5 t-bar rows
3x5 weighted pull-ups
3x5 deadlifts0 -
bizzump.0
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bump bump0
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Why do you think its too much?
Research\anecdotal evidence\the fact that it is more lifts and more days that any beginner strength routine I have seen. Most are something to the tune of squat, upper push, upper pull on three nonconsecutive days per week. Look at stronglifts, starting strength, reg park's beginner routine, etc.
Doing that many lifts that heavy with that many sets that many days per week is eventually going to burn out a grown man not using gear. CNS and joint fatigue are likely. Also it may be harder to progress at the standard beginner linear rate adding 5lbs to every lift every workout with this much frequency disallowing recovery. In the end though, only you can judge if\when this is happening. If you start to feel run down, joints aching etc, then you are there and will need to deload and then decrease the volume of your routine. If you don't you will actually progress slower than if you worked out less.
Thanks. I started last year with stronglifts and have tweaked/progressed to this point. Stronglifts never felt like enough work for me. Though, admittedly, I probably wasn't doing the weight/intensity last year that I should have been.
Oh, and let me just say this so hopefully this thread remains informative and beneficial - I'm probably going to, at some point, sound stubborn and argumentative. I don't mean to. I'm simply trying to challenge the conventional thought around over training and recovery.
I've done a little reading that suggests people "overreact" to needing rest/recovery and was hoping some people would have some meaningful/supported info in that area. I'll see if I can find some of the links (I really gotta start bookmarking stuff more often).0 -
ker---bump, good info.0
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I would say two things that jump out at me;
i. The volume/workout, seems like too much. If you want to do than many exercises/day I would suggest 3x5 for each.
ii. The other thing that jumps out is the lack of recovery for each body part prior to working it out again (squats one day, next day deads, one day pull-ups, next day row, etc. you need more recovery as the muscle groups are the same even though you are working them from a different angle.
If you want to lift 4 days/week I would suggest splitting the workout and hitting each body part twice/week. I do a 4 day split with the same days as you my A workout is Chest, Shoulders, Triceps, my B workout is Legs, Back, Biceps (for tries and bis I just throw in 1 isolation exercise, 2 sets at the end of the workout).
If those are the exercises you like I would suggest setting it up this way:
Workout A (Monday and Thursday)
5x5 bench press
3x5 overhead dumbbell press
3x5 incline dumbbell press
3x5 standing upright rows
3x5 weighted dips
Workout B (Tuesday and Friday)
5x5 squats
5x5 t-bar rows
3x5 weighted pull-ups
3x5 deadlifts
I've tried similar push/pull splits in the past and the problem I always run into is that I can't get through more than 2 heavy sets before "secondary" muscles fail. For example... I could never get through workout A as my triceps would fail before my chest/shoulder muscles got their fill. I realize that's part of the deal with compound lifts, but I really want the bigger muscle groups to be the focus.
That being said, would it make more sense to use stronglifts program as a base, but add in some more iso lifts to target certain muscle groups, rather than more compound lifts? Dumbbell flys rather than incline press, for example?0 -
Everyone is different so how you recover will help to dictate it. If you aren't seeing any changes in your physique after a few weeks of this, or if you're fatigued all the time, then chances are you're overtraining.
I've seen pro bodybuilders that do workouts like this consistently, but of course they have some "help". And there isn't a lot of hypertrophy going on even with the volume of sets since the rep count is a little low. You can build strength (up to a point without surplus and muscle gain) on this though.
Sometimes you have to go with how you feel. I personally trained each body part 2 times a week till I hit 37. Then I cut back to once a week per body part and have done that ever since and it feel great to get a weeks rest between the next workout. But I bomb that body part each week.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
Bump0
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I would say two things that jump out at me;
i. The volume/workout, seems like too much. If you want to do than many exercises/day I would suggest 3x5 for each.
ii. The other thing that jumps out is the lack of recovery for each body part prior to working it out again (squats one day, next day deads, one day pull-ups, next day row, etc. you need more recovery as the muscle groups are the same even though you are working them from a different angle.
If you want to lift 4 days/week I would suggest splitting the workout and hitting each body part twice/week. I do a 4 day split with the same days as you my A workout is Chest, Shoulders, Triceps, my B workout is Legs, Back, Biceps (for tries and bis I just throw in 1 isolation exercise, 2 sets at the end of the workout).
If those are the exercises you like I would suggest setting it up this way:
Workout A (Monday and Thursday)
5x5 bench press
3x5 overhead dumbbell press
3x5 incline dumbbell press
3x5 standing upright rows
3x5 weighted dips
Workout B (Tuesday and Friday)
5x5 squats
5x5 t-bar rows
3x5 weighted pull-ups
3x5 deadlifts
I've tried similar push/pull splits in the past and the problem I always run into is that I can't get through more than 2 heavy sets before "secondary" muscles fail. For example... I could never get through workout A as my triceps would fail before my chest/shoulder muscles got their fill. I realize that's part of the deal with compound lifts, but I really want the bigger muscle groups to be the focus.
That being said, would it make more sense to use stronglifts program as a base, but add in some more iso lifts to target certain muscle groups, rather than more compound lifts? Dumbbell flys rather than incline press, for example?
What makes the most sense is to follow a beginner routine properly until you can't make gains on it anymore after doing proper deloads\resets of lifts when you stall. Normally this is going to be somewhere in the neighbor hood of 1rms being bench 1.2xBW, Squat 2xBW, deadlift 2.5xBW Beginner routine workouts can often "feel like too little work" in the beginning, but when you are benching 200+ squatting 250+ and deadlifting 315+ for work sets, it will feel like plenty. Once you are at the end of linear progression you can start looking into intermediate routines such as Madcow's, 5/3/1, Texas Method, Lyles Generic Bulking Routine, etc. depending on goals. I personally plan on moving from Starting Strength to 5/3/1 Boring But Big template for a better mix of strength and size vs pure strength.0 -
That seems like a lot, but if you can handle it keep at it.
In my days of heavy lifting and when I made my best gains, I really didnt lift that often. 3x a week, and really only hitting each general muscle group once.0 -
I would say two things that jump out at me;
i. The volume/workout, seems like too much. If you want to do than many exercises/day I would suggest 3x5 for each.
ii. The other thing that jumps out is the lack of recovery for each body part prior to working it out again (squats one day, next day deads, one day pull-ups, next day row, etc. you need more recovery as the muscle groups are the same even though you are working them from a different angle.
If you want to lift 4 days/week I would suggest splitting the workout and hitting each body part twice/week. I do a 4 day split with the same days as you my A workout is Chest, Shoulders, Triceps, my B workout is Legs, Back, Biceps (for tries and bis I just throw in 1 isolation exercise, 2 sets at the end of the workout).
If those are the exercises you like I would suggest setting it up this way:
Workout A (Monday and Thursday)
5x5 bench press
3x5 overhead dumbbell press
3x5 incline dumbbell press
3x5 standing upright rows
3x5 weighted dips
Workout B (Tuesday and Friday)
5x5 squats
5x5 t-bar rows
3x5 weighted pull-ups
3x5 deadlifts
I've tried similar push/pull splits in the past and the problem I always run into is that I can't get through more than 2 heavy sets before "secondary" muscles fail. For example... I could never get through workout A as my triceps would fail before my chest/shoulder muscles got their fill. I realize that's part of the deal with compound lifts, but I really want the bigger muscle groups to be the focus.
That being said, would it make more sense to use stronglifts program as a base, but add in some more iso lifts to target certain muscle groups, rather than more compound lifts? Dumbbell flys rather than incline press, for example?
What makes the most sense is to follow a beginner routine properly until you can't make gains on it anymore after doing proper deloads\resets of lifts when you stall. Normally this is going to be somewhere in the neighbor hood of 1rms being bench 1.2xBW, Squat 2xBW, deadlift 2.5xBW Beginner routine workouts can often "feel like too little work" in the beginning, but when you are benching 200+ squatting 250+ and deadlifting 315+ for work sets, it will feel like plenty. Once you are at the end of linear progression you can start looking into intermediate routines such as Madcow's, 5/3/1, Texas Method, Lyles Generic Bulking Routine, etc. depending on goals. I personally plan on moving from Starting Strength to 5/3/1 Boring But Big template for a better mix of strength and size vs pure strength.
But WHY does that make the most sense? I understand that it's the basis for beginner heavy lifting, but why? At one point, people thought the earth was flat, too. I'm not saying stronglifts or any of the 5x5 programs are wrong, I'm just asking why everyone is so dead set against changing/tweaking them.
Does the science behind progression say that x number of reps is too many?
Don't get me wrong... I'm a firm believer in the idea that everyone should start with something that is tried and true - be in a strength training routine, a diet plan, whatever. But at some point, isn't it ok to tweak them?
Again, not trying to sound argumentative, just trying to get past the "its what so-and-so said works, and it worked for me/others" mentality. At some point, especially with something as individual as health/fitness, doesn't personal experience trump everything else? As in sports, some teams are great on paper but suck on the field or vice versa.
ok, enough arguing (lol)... time to go lift! BBIAW.
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Sorry for the delay getting back to this thread...
Workout A (Monday and Thursday)
5x5 bench press
5x5 weighted pull-ups
5x5 squats
5x5 incline dumbbell press
5x5 standing upright rows
Workout B (Tuesday and Friday)
5x5 deadlifts
5x5 overhead dumbbell press
5x5 t-bar rows
5x5 weighted dips
I don't know what my 1RM is on any of these, but weight is enough so, at the very least I'm struggling to get through all 5 sets, and in most cases I'm struggling to get through each set.
Cals are ~400 over TDEE.
Sleep is harder to guage... Try for > 8 hours, but I'm not a good/steady sleeper, so depending on how often I wake up and how long I'm up, could be anywhere from 5 hours on a bad night to 8-9 on a good night.
This isn't too much. This is WAY TOO MUCH.
If you truly like this routine 3x a week is the right amount. Do workout A, B, A one week and workout B, A, B the next week.
If you've been doing this for a while at 4x a week, I recommend you take a full recovery week with no activity. Up to 2 weeks if you still feel drained. Then start with 3x per.0 -
Question? Is it that you want to be at the gym 4 days per week? Because if that's the case, we can work with that. The routine you're doing is still wrong for it. We can give you a workout A and B routine where you hit each group 2x per week. Personally that's where I had my best gains. Currently tho, I'm doing 3x per where we do each group only once per week because *4 days per week was too much for my intermediate level partner*.
Btw, if you're still wondering, the reason your routine is too much is because you're hitting the same muscles day after day with no rest. You've been reading up, so I know that you are aware that muscles improve on recovery days. You don't have recovery days.0 -
I would say two things that jump out at me;
i. The volume/workout, seems like too much. If you want to do than many exercises/day I would suggest 3x5 for each.
ii. The other thing that jumps out is the lack of recovery for each body part prior to working it out again (squats one day, next day deads, one day pull-ups, next day row, etc. you need more recovery as the muscle groups are the same even though you are working them from a different angle.
If you want to lift 4 days/week I would suggest splitting the workout and hitting each body part twice/week. I do a 4 day split with the same days as you my A workout is Chest, Shoulders, Triceps, my B workout is Legs, Back, Biceps (for tries and bis I just throw in 1 isolation exercise, 2 sets at the end of the workout).
If those are the exercises you like I would suggest setting it up this way:
Workout A (Monday and Thursday)
5x5 bench press
3x5 overhead dumbbell press
3x5 incline dumbbell press
3x5 standing upright rows
3x5 weighted dips
Workout B (Tuesday and Friday)
5x5 squats
5x5 t-bar rows
3x5 weighted pull-ups
3x5 deadlifts
I've tried similar push/pull splits in the past and the problem I always run into is that I can't get through more than 2 heavy sets before "secondary" muscles fail. For example... I could never get through workout A as my triceps would fail before my chest/shoulder muscles got their fill. I realize that's part of the deal with compound lifts, but I really want the bigger muscle groups to be the focus.
That being said, would it make more sense to use stronglifts program as a base, but add in some more iso lifts to target certain muscle groups, rather than more compound lifts? Dumbbell flys rather than incline press, for example?
What makes the most sense is to follow a beginner routine properly until you can't make gains on it anymore after doing proper deloads\resets of lifts when you stall. Normally this is going to be somewhere in the neighbor hood of 1rms being bench 1.2xBW, Squat 2xBW, deadlift 2.5xBW Beginner routine workouts can often "feel like too little work" in the beginning, but when you are benching 200+ squatting 250+ and deadlifting 315+ for work sets, it will feel like plenty. Once you are at the end of linear progression you can start looking into intermediate routines such as Madcow's, 5/3/1, Texas Method, Lyles Generic Bulking Routine, etc. depending on goals. I personally plan on moving from Starting Strength to 5/3/1 Boring But Big template for a better mix of strength and size vs pure strength.
But WHY does that make the most sense? I understand that it's the basis for beginner heavy lifting, but why? At one point, people thought the earth was flat, too. I'm not saying stronglifts or any of the 5x5 programs are wrong, I'm just asking why everyone is so dead set against changing/tweaking them.
Does the science behind progression say that x number of reps is too many?
Don't get me wrong... I'm a firm believer in the idea that everyone should start with something that is tried and true - be in a strength training routine, a diet plan, whatever. But at some point, isn't it ok to tweak them?
Again, not trying to sound argumentative, just trying to get past the "its what so-and-so said works, and it worked for me/others" mentality. At some point, especially with something as individual as health/fitness, doesn't personal experience trump everything else? As in sports, some teams are great on paper but suck on the field or vice versa.
ok, enough arguing (lol)... time to go lift! BBIAW.
.
You don't tweak beginner routines because beginners don't know enough to know how to tweak them. You don't tweak them because you don't have enough experience with your own body to understand how the tweaks are affecting you. People who need to ask questions like the ones you are asking don't know how to tweak them (no hate). You don't tweak them because they don't need tweaking. After you reach the end of gains on a beginner routine you can pick an intermediate routine that DOES allow for tweaking. At that point you will know your body better, and you will better know what things you may need to add to bring up weak areas. When you first start out, your whole body is a weak area that just needs to get a solid base of strength and muscle through basic lifting. Every person of every training level should be looking to use the simplest programming and lowest volume possible that still gives the desired results. If you can get as good or probably BETTER results doing 3 lifts 3 days per week, why do 4-5 lifts 4 days per week?0 -
Good questions... probably should have addressed that earlier.Question? Is it that you want to be at the gym 4 days per week? Because if that's the case, we can work with that. The routine you're doing is still wrong for it. We can give you a workout A and B routine where you hit each group 2x per week. Personally that's where I had my best gains. Currently tho, I'm doing 3x per where we do each group only once per week because *4 days per week was too much for my intermediate level partner*.
My mentality has always been that if I'm going to workout (be it weights, cardio, racing, whatever), that I want to get the most out of the session by giving the most I can give. When I'm done, if I feel like I've got anything left, I'm disappointed. That's why the basic stronglifts program didn't work for me.
Based on my schedule, I can usually guarantee myself a workout every day mon-fri. But weekends are a crap shoot. So my thinking was 4 workouts Mon-Fri and the weekends can be for whatever. Workout out 4 out of 5 days, Wednesday was the obvious day to take off.
From everything I've read (people like Alan Aragon, Lyle McDonald, Matt Perryman), muscles recover during rest, most of which happens at night. That, paired with the notion that the central nervous system doesn't really fatigue or get overwhelmed from exercise makes me thing the whole idea of recovery days is a bit overstated by most people.Btw, if you're still wondering, the reason your routine is too much is because you're hitting the same muscles day after day with no rest. You've been reading up, so I know that you are aware that muscles improve on recovery days. You don't have recovery days.0 -
I would say two things that jump out at me;
i. The volume/workout, seems like too much. If you want to do than many exercises/day I would suggest 3x5 for each.
ii. The other thing that jumps out is the lack of recovery for each body part prior to working it out again (squats one day, next day deads, one day pull-ups, next day row, etc. you need more recovery as the muscle groups are the same even though you are working them from a different angle.
If you want to lift 4 days/week I would suggest splitting the workout and hitting each body part twice/week. I do a 4 day split with the same days as you my A workout is Chest, Shoulders, Triceps, my B workout is Legs, Back, Biceps (for tries and bis I just throw in 1 isolation exercise, 2 sets at the end of the workout).
If those are the exercises you like I would suggest setting it up this way:
Workout A (Monday and Thursday)
5x5 bench press
3x5 overhead dumbbell press
3x5 incline dumbbell press
3x5 standing upright rows
3x5 weighted dips
Workout B (Tuesday and Friday)
5x5 squats
5x5 t-bar rows
3x5 weighted pull-ups
3x5 deadlifts
I've tried similar push/pull splits in the past and the problem I always run into is that I can't get through more than 2 heavy sets before "secondary" muscles fail. For example... I could never get through workout A as my triceps would fail before my chest/shoulder muscles got their fill. I realize that's part of the deal with compound lifts, but I really want the bigger muscle groups to be the focus.
That being said, would it make more sense to use stronglifts program as a base, but add in some more iso lifts to target certain muscle groups, rather than more compound lifts? Dumbbell flys rather than incline press, for example?
What makes the most sense is to follow a beginner routine properly until you can't make gains on it anymore after doing proper deloads\resets of lifts when you stall. Normally this is going to be somewhere in the neighbor hood of 1rms being bench 1.2xBW, Squat 2xBW, deadlift 2.5xBW Beginner routine workouts can often "feel like too little work" in the beginning, but when you are benching 200+ squatting 250+ and deadlifting 315+ for work sets, it will feel like plenty. Once you are at the end of linear progression you can start looking into intermediate routines such as Madcow's, 5/3/1, Texas Method, Lyles Generic Bulking Routine, etc. depending on goals. I personally plan on moving from Starting Strength to 5/3/1 Boring But Big template for a better mix of strength and size vs pure strength.
But WHY does that make the most sense? I understand that it's the basis for beginner heavy lifting, but why? At one point, people thought the earth was flat, too. I'm not saying stronglifts or any of the 5x5 programs are wrong, I'm just asking why everyone is so dead set against changing/tweaking them.
Does the science behind progression say that x number of reps is too many?
Don't get me wrong... I'm a firm believer in the idea that everyone should start with something that is tried and true - be in a strength training routine, a diet plan, whatever. But at some point, isn't it ok to tweak them?
Again, not trying to sound argumentative, just trying to get past the "its what so-and-so said works, and it worked for me/others" mentality. At some point, especially with something as individual as health/fitness, doesn't personal experience trump everything else? As in sports, some teams are great on paper but suck on the field or vice versa.
ok, enough arguing (lol)... time to go lift! BBIAW.
.
You don't tweak beginner routines because beginners don't know enough to know how to tweak them. You don't tweak them because you don't have enough experience with your own body to understand how the tweaks are affecting you. People who need to ask questions like the ones you are asking don't know how to tweak them (no hate). You don't tweak them because they don't need tweaking. After you reach the end of gains on a beginner routine you can pick an intermediate routine that DOES allow for tweaking. At that point you will know your body better, and you will better know what things you may need to add to bring up weak areas. When you first start out, your whole body is a weak area that just needs to get a solid base of strength and muscle through basic lifting. Every person of every training level should be looking to use the simplest programming and lowest volume possible that still gives the desired results. If you can get as good or probably BETTER results doing 3 lifts 3 days per week, why do 4-5 lifts 4 days per week?
Good points, thanks. Maybe getting my feet back on the ground with regards to what I know and don't know is a bit overdue, huh? lol0 -
Good questions... probably should have addressed that earlier.Question? Is it that you want to be at the gym 4 days per week? Because if that's the case, we can work with that. The routine you're doing is still wrong for it. We can give you a workout A and B routine where you hit each group 2x per week. Personally that's where I had my best gains. Currently tho, I'm doing 3x per where we do each group only once per week because *4 days per week was too much for my intermediate level partner*.
My mentality has always been that if I'm going to workout (be it weights, cardio, racing, whatever), that I want to get the most out of the session by giving the most I can give. When I'm done, if I feel like I've got anything left, I'm disappointed. That's why the basic stronglifts program didn't work for me.
Based on my schedule, I can usually guarantee myself a workout every day mon-fri. But weekends are a crap shoot. So my thinking was 4 workouts Mon-Fri and the weekends can be for whatever. Workout out 4 out of 5 days, Wednesday was the obvious day to take off.
From everything I've read (people like Alan Aragon, Lyle McDonald, Matt Perryman), muscles recover during rest, most of which happens at night. That, paired with the notion that the central nervous system doesn't really fatigue or get overwhelmed from exercise makes me thing the whole idea of recovery days is a bit overstated by most people.Btw, if you're still wondering, the reason your routine is too much is because you're hitting the same muscles day after day with no rest. You've been reading up, so I know that you are aware that muscles improve on recovery days. You don't have recovery days.
Most of what I know is based on muscles taking 24-48 hours to recover. This has been my personal experience over years of training, not just in what I've read, but in how my body has reacted to various routines. And overtraining is a real thing. The heavier you're lifting, the more it becomes a possibility. Overstated, perhaps, but it's not the boogeyman or Santa Claus either. It exists.
One of my most productive splits was chest, back, biceps on Mon and Thurs, legs, shoulders, triceps on Tues and Friday. Generally Mon and Tues were heavy days with Thurs and Friday a relatively lighter day. Something typical would be bench, incline bench and dips on monday and dumbbell bench and dumbbell inclines on Thursday. The other groups would get something similar, with the exception for arms, which usually only got one exercise, maaaaaaybe two on occasion.
That would get me 4 days a week, which I liked, and leave my weekends free. And it got me the rest I needed. Give something like that a try.0 -
Adding a note that with heavy lifting, many times less can be more. My workout partner hit the Wall when we were doing my 4x per week routine so we had to cut it back. First we did full body, 1 exercise per group 3x per week. Not quite enough, we felt. So we gave something new a try.
We're currently doing chest/tri on mon, back/bicep on weds, and legs/shoulders on friday. 2-3 exercises for each group. I did not believe that hitting each group only one time per week would work but I was willing to try it for his sake. But it works, and has worked well. Not just for him but for both of us and like I mentioned, we're on opposite ends of the experience scale. We both increased weights and reps each week like clockwork.
I think what I'm trying to say is that you don't have to feel blasted. Get your work in and the gains will come. You can probably get by with less than you think.0 -
Don't change the routine, change your "supplementation"0
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Adding a note that with heavy lifting, many times less can be more. My workout partner hit the Wall when we were doing my 4x per week routine so we had to cut it back. First we did full body, 1 exercise per group 3x per week. Not quite enough, we felt. So we gave something new a try.
>>>>We're currently doing chest/tri on mon, back/bicep on weds, and legs/shoulders on friday. 2-3 exercises for each group. I did not believe that hitting each group only one time per week would work but I was willing to try it for his sake. But it works, and has worked well. Not just for him but for both of us and like I mentioned, we're on opposite ends of the experience scale. We both increased weights and reps each week like clockwork. <<<<<
I think what I'm trying to say is that you don't have to feel blasted. Get your work in and the gains will come. You can probably get by with less than you think.
The part I put in arrows was what worked best for me. That was the split I used with very good succes. You would have thought since I was smaller but stronger than all my lifting buddies, they would have tried my way, but they didn't, they all lifted more often than me trying to "catch up".0
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