heavy lifting and over training
Replies
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I would say two things that jump out at me;
i. The volume/workout, seems like too much. If you want to do than many exercises/day I would suggest 3x5 for each.
ii. The other thing that jumps out is the lack of recovery for each body part prior to working it out again (squats one day, next day deads, one day pull-ups, next day row, etc. you need more recovery as the muscle groups are the same even though you are working them from a different angle.
If you want to lift 4 days/week I would suggest splitting the workout and hitting each body part twice/week. I do a 4 day split with the same days as you my A workout is Chest, Shoulders, Triceps, my B workout is Legs, Back, Biceps (for tries and bis I just throw in 1 isolation exercise, 2 sets at the end of the workout).
If those are the exercises you like I would suggest setting it up this way:
Workout A (Monday and Thursday)
5x5 bench press
3x5 overhead dumbbell press
3x5 incline dumbbell press
3x5 standing upright rows
3x5 weighted dips
Workout B (Tuesday and Friday)
5x5 squats
5x5 t-bar rows
3x5 weighted pull-ups
3x5 deadlifts
I've tried similar push/pull splits in the past and the problem I always run into is that I can't get through more than 2 heavy sets before "secondary" muscles fail. For example... I could never get through workout A as my triceps would fail before my chest/shoulder muscles got their fill. I realize that's part of the deal with compound lifts, but I really want the bigger muscle groups to be the focus.
That being said, would it make more sense to use stronglifts program as a base, but add in some more iso lifts to target certain muscle groups, rather than more compound lifts? Dumbbell flys rather than incline press, for example?
What makes the most sense is to follow a beginner routine properly until you can't make gains on it anymore after doing proper deloads\resets of lifts when you stall. Normally this is going to be somewhere in the neighbor hood of 1rms being bench 1.2xBW, Squat 2xBW, deadlift 2.5xBW Beginner routine workouts can often "feel like too little work" in the beginning, but when you are benching 200+ squatting 250+ and deadlifting 315+ for work sets, it will feel like plenty. Once you are at the end of linear progression you can start looking into intermediate routines such as Madcow's, 5/3/1, Texas Method, Lyles Generic Bulking Routine, etc. depending on goals. I personally plan on moving from Starting Strength to 5/3/1 Boring But Big template for a better mix of strength and size vs pure strength.
But WHY does that make the most sense? I understand that it's the basis for beginner heavy lifting, but why? At one point, people thought the earth was flat, too. I'm not saying stronglifts or any of the 5x5 programs are wrong, I'm just asking why everyone is so dead set against changing/tweaking them.
Does the science behind progression say that x number of reps is too many?
Don't get me wrong... I'm a firm believer in the idea that everyone should start with something that is tried and true - be in a strength training routine, a diet plan, whatever. But at some point, isn't it ok to tweak them?
Again, not trying to sound argumentative, just trying to get past the "its what so-and-so said works, and it worked for me/others" mentality. At some point, especially with something as individual as health/fitness, doesn't personal experience trump everything else? As in sports, some teams are great on paper but suck on the field or vice versa.
ok, enough arguing (lol)... time to go lift! BBIAW.
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Sorry for the delay getting back to this thread...
Workout A (Monday and Thursday)
5x5 bench press
5x5 weighted pull-ups
5x5 squats
5x5 incline dumbbell press
5x5 standing upright rows
Workout B (Tuesday and Friday)
5x5 deadlifts
5x5 overhead dumbbell press
5x5 t-bar rows
5x5 weighted dips
I don't know what my 1RM is on any of these, but weight is enough so, at the very least I'm struggling to get through all 5 sets, and in most cases I'm struggling to get through each set.
Cals are ~400 over TDEE.
Sleep is harder to guage... Try for > 8 hours, but I'm not a good/steady sleeper, so depending on how often I wake up and how long I'm up, could be anywhere from 5 hours on a bad night to 8-9 on a good night.
This isn't too much. This is WAY TOO MUCH.
If you truly like this routine 3x a week is the right amount. Do workout A, B, A one week and workout B, A, B the next week.
If you've been doing this for a while at 4x a week, I recommend you take a full recovery week with no activity. Up to 2 weeks if you still feel drained. Then start with 3x per.0 -
Question? Is it that you want to be at the gym 4 days per week? Because if that's the case, we can work with that. The routine you're doing is still wrong for it. We can give you a workout A and B routine where you hit each group 2x per week. Personally that's where I had my best gains. Currently tho, I'm doing 3x per where we do each group only once per week because *4 days per week was too much for my intermediate level partner*.
Btw, if you're still wondering, the reason your routine is too much is because you're hitting the same muscles day after day with no rest. You've been reading up, so I know that you are aware that muscles improve on recovery days. You don't have recovery days.0 -
I would say two things that jump out at me;
i. The volume/workout, seems like too much. If you want to do than many exercises/day I would suggest 3x5 for each.
ii. The other thing that jumps out is the lack of recovery for each body part prior to working it out again (squats one day, next day deads, one day pull-ups, next day row, etc. you need more recovery as the muscle groups are the same even though you are working them from a different angle.
If you want to lift 4 days/week I would suggest splitting the workout and hitting each body part twice/week. I do a 4 day split with the same days as you my A workout is Chest, Shoulders, Triceps, my B workout is Legs, Back, Biceps (for tries and bis I just throw in 1 isolation exercise, 2 sets at the end of the workout).
If those are the exercises you like I would suggest setting it up this way:
Workout A (Monday and Thursday)
5x5 bench press
3x5 overhead dumbbell press
3x5 incline dumbbell press
3x5 standing upright rows
3x5 weighted dips
Workout B (Tuesday and Friday)
5x5 squats
5x5 t-bar rows
3x5 weighted pull-ups
3x5 deadlifts
I've tried similar push/pull splits in the past and the problem I always run into is that I can't get through more than 2 heavy sets before "secondary" muscles fail. For example... I could never get through workout A as my triceps would fail before my chest/shoulder muscles got their fill. I realize that's part of the deal with compound lifts, but I really want the bigger muscle groups to be the focus.
That being said, would it make more sense to use stronglifts program as a base, but add in some more iso lifts to target certain muscle groups, rather than more compound lifts? Dumbbell flys rather than incline press, for example?
What makes the most sense is to follow a beginner routine properly until you can't make gains on it anymore after doing proper deloads\resets of lifts when you stall. Normally this is going to be somewhere in the neighbor hood of 1rms being bench 1.2xBW, Squat 2xBW, deadlift 2.5xBW Beginner routine workouts can often "feel like too little work" in the beginning, but when you are benching 200+ squatting 250+ and deadlifting 315+ for work sets, it will feel like plenty. Once you are at the end of linear progression you can start looking into intermediate routines such as Madcow's, 5/3/1, Texas Method, Lyles Generic Bulking Routine, etc. depending on goals. I personally plan on moving from Starting Strength to 5/3/1 Boring But Big template for a better mix of strength and size vs pure strength.
But WHY does that make the most sense? I understand that it's the basis for beginner heavy lifting, but why? At one point, people thought the earth was flat, too. I'm not saying stronglifts or any of the 5x5 programs are wrong, I'm just asking why everyone is so dead set against changing/tweaking them.
Does the science behind progression say that x number of reps is too many?
Don't get me wrong... I'm a firm believer in the idea that everyone should start with something that is tried and true - be in a strength training routine, a diet plan, whatever. But at some point, isn't it ok to tweak them?
Again, not trying to sound argumentative, just trying to get past the "its what so-and-so said works, and it worked for me/others" mentality. At some point, especially with something as individual as health/fitness, doesn't personal experience trump everything else? As in sports, some teams are great on paper but suck on the field or vice versa.
ok, enough arguing (lol)... time to go lift! BBIAW.
.
You don't tweak beginner routines because beginners don't know enough to know how to tweak them. You don't tweak them because you don't have enough experience with your own body to understand how the tweaks are affecting you. People who need to ask questions like the ones you are asking don't know how to tweak them (no hate). You don't tweak them because they don't need tweaking. After you reach the end of gains on a beginner routine you can pick an intermediate routine that DOES allow for tweaking. At that point you will know your body better, and you will better know what things you may need to add to bring up weak areas. When you first start out, your whole body is a weak area that just needs to get a solid base of strength and muscle through basic lifting. Every person of every training level should be looking to use the simplest programming and lowest volume possible that still gives the desired results. If you can get as good or probably BETTER results doing 3 lifts 3 days per week, why do 4-5 lifts 4 days per week?0 -
Good questions... probably should have addressed that earlier.Question? Is it that you want to be at the gym 4 days per week? Because if that's the case, we can work with that. The routine you're doing is still wrong for it. We can give you a workout A and B routine where you hit each group 2x per week. Personally that's where I had my best gains. Currently tho, I'm doing 3x per where we do each group only once per week because *4 days per week was too much for my intermediate level partner*.
My mentality has always been that if I'm going to workout (be it weights, cardio, racing, whatever), that I want to get the most out of the session by giving the most I can give. When I'm done, if I feel like I've got anything left, I'm disappointed. That's why the basic stronglifts program didn't work for me.
Based on my schedule, I can usually guarantee myself a workout every day mon-fri. But weekends are a crap shoot. So my thinking was 4 workouts Mon-Fri and the weekends can be for whatever. Workout out 4 out of 5 days, Wednesday was the obvious day to take off.
From everything I've read (people like Alan Aragon, Lyle McDonald, Matt Perryman), muscles recover during rest, most of which happens at night. That, paired with the notion that the central nervous system doesn't really fatigue or get overwhelmed from exercise makes me thing the whole idea of recovery days is a bit overstated by most people.Btw, if you're still wondering, the reason your routine is too much is because you're hitting the same muscles day after day with no rest. You've been reading up, so I know that you are aware that muscles improve on recovery days. You don't have recovery days.0 -
I would say two things that jump out at me;
i. The volume/workout, seems like too much. If you want to do than many exercises/day I would suggest 3x5 for each.
ii. The other thing that jumps out is the lack of recovery for each body part prior to working it out again (squats one day, next day deads, one day pull-ups, next day row, etc. you need more recovery as the muscle groups are the same even though you are working them from a different angle.
If you want to lift 4 days/week I would suggest splitting the workout and hitting each body part twice/week. I do a 4 day split with the same days as you my A workout is Chest, Shoulders, Triceps, my B workout is Legs, Back, Biceps (for tries and bis I just throw in 1 isolation exercise, 2 sets at the end of the workout).
If those are the exercises you like I would suggest setting it up this way:
Workout A (Monday and Thursday)
5x5 bench press
3x5 overhead dumbbell press
3x5 incline dumbbell press
3x5 standing upright rows
3x5 weighted dips
Workout B (Tuesday and Friday)
5x5 squats
5x5 t-bar rows
3x5 weighted pull-ups
3x5 deadlifts
I've tried similar push/pull splits in the past and the problem I always run into is that I can't get through more than 2 heavy sets before "secondary" muscles fail. For example... I could never get through workout A as my triceps would fail before my chest/shoulder muscles got their fill. I realize that's part of the deal with compound lifts, but I really want the bigger muscle groups to be the focus.
That being said, would it make more sense to use stronglifts program as a base, but add in some more iso lifts to target certain muscle groups, rather than more compound lifts? Dumbbell flys rather than incline press, for example?
What makes the most sense is to follow a beginner routine properly until you can't make gains on it anymore after doing proper deloads\resets of lifts when you stall. Normally this is going to be somewhere in the neighbor hood of 1rms being bench 1.2xBW, Squat 2xBW, deadlift 2.5xBW Beginner routine workouts can often "feel like too little work" in the beginning, but when you are benching 200+ squatting 250+ and deadlifting 315+ for work sets, it will feel like plenty. Once you are at the end of linear progression you can start looking into intermediate routines such as Madcow's, 5/3/1, Texas Method, Lyles Generic Bulking Routine, etc. depending on goals. I personally plan on moving from Starting Strength to 5/3/1 Boring But Big template for a better mix of strength and size vs pure strength.
But WHY does that make the most sense? I understand that it's the basis for beginner heavy lifting, but why? At one point, people thought the earth was flat, too. I'm not saying stronglifts or any of the 5x5 programs are wrong, I'm just asking why everyone is so dead set against changing/tweaking them.
Does the science behind progression say that x number of reps is too many?
Don't get me wrong... I'm a firm believer in the idea that everyone should start with something that is tried and true - be in a strength training routine, a diet plan, whatever. But at some point, isn't it ok to tweak them?
Again, not trying to sound argumentative, just trying to get past the "its what so-and-so said works, and it worked for me/others" mentality. At some point, especially with something as individual as health/fitness, doesn't personal experience trump everything else? As in sports, some teams are great on paper but suck on the field or vice versa.
ok, enough arguing (lol)... time to go lift! BBIAW.
.
You don't tweak beginner routines because beginners don't know enough to know how to tweak them. You don't tweak them because you don't have enough experience with your own body to understand how the tweaks are affecting you. People who need to ask questions like the ones you are asking don't know how to tweak them (no hate). You don't tweak them because they don't need tweaking. After you reach the end of gains on a beginner routine you can pick an intermediate routine that DOES allow for tweaking. At that point you will know your body better, and you will better know what things you may need to add to bring up weak areas. When you first start out, your whole body is a weak area that just needs to get a solid base of strength and muscle through basic lifting. Every person of every training level should be looking to use the simplest programming and lowest volume possible that still gives the desired results. If you can get as good or probably BETTER results doing 3 lifts 3 days per week, why do 4-5 lifts 4 days per week?
Good points, thanks. Maybe getting my feet back on the ground with regards to what I know and don't know is a bit overdue, huh? lol0 -
Good questions... probably should have addressed that earlier.Question? Is it that you want to be at the gym 4 days per week? Because if that's the case, we can work with that. The routine you're doing is still wrong for it. We can give you a workout A and B routine where you hit each group 2x per week. Personally that's where I had my best gains. Currently tho, I'm doing 3x per where we do each group only once per week because *4 days per week was too much for my intermediate level partner*.
My mentality has always been that if I'm going to workout (be it weights, cardio, racing, whatever), that I want to get the most out of the session by giving the most I can give. When I'm done, if I feel like I've got anything left, I'm disappointed. That's why the basic stronglifts program didn't work for me.
Based on my schedule, I can usually guarantee myself a workout every day mon-fri. But weekends are a crap shoot. So my thinking was 4 workouts Mon-Fri and the weekends can be for whatever. Workout out 4 out of 5 days, Wednesday was the obvious day to take off.
From everything I've read (people like Alan Aragon, Lyle McDonald, Matt Perryman), muscles recover during rest, most of which happens at night. That, paired with the notion that the central nervous system doesn't really fatigue or get overwhelmed from exercise makes me thing the whole idea of recovery days is a bit overstated by most people.Btw, if you're still wondering, the reason your routine is too much is because you're hitting the same muscles day after day with no rest. You've been reading up, so I know that you are aware that muscles improve on recovery days. You don't have recovery days.
Most of what I know is based on muscles taking 24-48 hours to recover. This has been my personal experience over years of training, not just in what I've read, but in how my body has reacted to various routines. And overtraining is a real thing. The heavier you're lifting, the more it becomes a possibility. Overstated, perhaps, but it's not the boogeyman or Santa Claus either. It exists.
One of my most productive splits was chest, back, biceps on Mon and Thurs, legs, shoulders, triceps on Tues and Friday. Generally Mon and Tues were heavy days with Thurs and Friday a relatively lighter day. Something typical would be bench, incline bench and dips on monday and dumbbell bench and dumbbell inclines on Thursday. The other groups would get something similar, with the exception for arms, which usually only got one exercise, maaaaaaybe two on occasion.
That would get me 4 days a week, which I liked, and leave my weekends free. And it got me the rest I needed. Give something like that a try.0 -
Adding a note that with heavy lifting, many times less can be more. My workout partner hit the Wall when we were doing my 4x per week routine so we had to cut it back. First we did full body, 1 exercise per group 3x per week. Not quite enough, we felt. So we gave something new a try.
We're currently doing chest/tri on mon, back/bicep on weds, and legs/shoulders on friday. 2-3 exercises for each group. I did not believe that hitting each group only one time per week would work but I was willing to try it for his sake. But it works, and has worked well. Not just for him but for both of us and like I mentioned, we're on opposite ends of the experience scale. We both increased weights and reps each week like clockwork.
I think what I'm trying to say is that you don't have to feel blasted. Get your work in and the gains will come. You can probably get by with less than you think.0 -
Don't change the routine, change your "supplementation"0
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Adding a note that with heavy lifting, many times less can be more. My workout partner hit the Wall when we were doing my 4x per week routine so we had to cut it back. First we did full body, 1 exercise per group 3x per week. Not quite enough, we felt. So we gave something new a try.
>>>>We're currently doing chest/tri on mon, back/bicep on weds, and legs/shoulders on friday. 2-3 exercises for each group. I did not believe that hitting each group only one time per week would work but I was willing to try it for his sake. But it works, and has worked well. Not just for him but for both of us and like I mentioned, we're on opposite ends of the experience scale. We both increased weights and reps each week like clockwork. <<<<<
I think what I'm trying to say is that you don't have to feel blasted. Get your work in and the gains will come. You can probably get by with less than you think.
The part I put in arrows was what worked best for me. That was the split I used with very good succes. You would have thought since I was smaller but stronger than all my lifting buddies, they would have tried my way, but they didn't, they all lifted more often than me trying to "catch up".0 -
I think what I'm trying to say is that you don't have to feel blasted. Get your work in and the gains will come. You can probably get by with less than you think.
That's really hard for me... always been an all or nothing guy.0 -
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Well I'm a girl so it's a bit different but I do an all body lifting routine 5-6 days a week and have been for a year now and it has not hurt me and I did gain a couple pounds of lean body mass (according to DXA body composition scan). A guy would have gained more. I do not eat "extra" but I make sure to get enough protein. I am on a rolling schedule simply listen to my body and when it needs rest. If I'm doing a heavier routine I might go 3 days in a row and need a rest, then pick it up the following day. Other times I can go 5-6 days in a row. I run as well. Everything I so all about listening to my body and giving it what it needs, eating, working out, rest, sleep, etc. I believe that is key, but I'm older and have learned this over the years,
I believe even for guys you do not need to eat extra and I base that on the reading I have done on the guys version of the workout I do.
If you really want to learn the truth about muscle gain for guys I would highly recommend the Adonis Index, even if you don't want the workout the manual with John Barbans story is worth GOLD. It was a real eye opener for me to understand the guys point of view on body image and the truth about how much muscle a guy can gain with the body type you are born with and no steriods.0 -
Don't change the routine, change your "supplementation"
I don't think a guy at his level needs to worry about that.0 -
I think some of this may have been said, but my 2 pence fwiw...
I do a 3 day split - day 1 is legs/shoulders, day 2 is chest/triceps and day 3 is back/biceps
day 1 is your standard compounds like squats/lunges/RDLs including some isolation moves like leg extension/ham curls/calf raises...
day 2 is bench press/dumbell press/flyes and then the isolation moves such as skullcrushers/tricep pushdowns etc.
day 3 is Deadlifts/rows/chins/shrugs and some bicep isolations (which are least important as they get hit a lot with the other stuff)
I have done 3x per week mostly for a few years now and it is when I have seen my largest gains. Each time I get on a bulk I see 14-28 lbs of gain. This has translated to around 7-14lbs of lean muscle each gain over a 3 month period. Rinsing yourself out is not necessarily the most efficient method. Just because you 'feel' like you haven't worked out properly shouldn't stop you using your logic to get the best workout plan you can.
The beauty of the way I have my plan laid out is that each body area gets a good few days of rest to maximise the potential gains after each workout. The intensity I workout at means that it still takes me around 2-s days before I stop aching.
After that long ramble - the point I am drawing to is, as has been mentioned, you don't seem to have a split of body areas really so Tuesday impacts on the same muscles as Monday did, and the same with Friday for Thursday's muscles. If you really want 4 days instead of 3, then focus on maybe an upper/lower split.
The problem really is one of looking at it in a logical way - if you work out on Monday, then use the same muscles on Tuesday. If you did appropriate intensity on Monday, then your muscles should still be fatigued on Tuesday and so you won't be able to get maximum results.
It's kind of the same thing as if you were to get an injury - the options are to keep going whilst only being able to do 50% of the weight and so getting no gains, or rest for a few sessions and be straight back to full strength.
You have to be sensible about what's best...0 -
Don't change the routine, change your "supplementation"
I don't think a guy at his level needs to worry about that.
I assumed he meant what lifts I add to a basic 5x5 program?0 -
Don't change the routine, change your "supplementation"
I don't think a guy at his level needs to worry about that.
I assumed he meant what lifts I add to a basic 5x5 program?
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but he means that if you want to be able to reasonably maintain that routine you'd need to be on PEDs. Hence, "supplements".0 -
Hi, I've done a bit of reading around recovery for my own sake. This article on EXRX summarizes some relevant research.
http://www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/LowVolumeTraining.html
From there: "By performing an additional set (50% to 100% more sets) only 0 to 5% more progress will be observed. Each additional set yields even less progress to a point of diminishing return. The time saved with an abbreviated weight training program can often be used more wisely elsewhere in a program"0 -
Don't change the routine, change your "supplementation"
I don't think a guy at his level needs to worry about that.
I assumed he meant what lifts I add to a basic 5x5 program?
I assumed he meant steroids.0 -
Look at Wendler's 5/3/1. There is specific programming for 4 days a week. It basically comes down to doing 1 major lift on each day: Squat, Deadlift, Bench, OHP, and then assistance work. Deload weeks are built in to the program. It's a great program for once you've reached "intermediate" level.0
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Don't change the routine, change your "supplementation"
I don't think a guy at his level needs to worry about that.
I assumed he meant what lifts I add to a basic 5x5 program?
I assumed he meant steroids.
The first time I read it that's what I thought too... Didn't think someone would actually recommend them to someone like me on a board like this, even if it was a bit tongue in cheek.0 -
Look at Wendler's 5/3/1. There is specific programming for 4 days a week. It basically comes down to doing 1 major lift on each day: Squat, Deadlift, Bench, OHP, and then assistance work. Deload weeks are built in to the program. It's a great program for once you've reached "intermediate" level.
Right this is one of the intermmediate routines I mentioned (and what i plan on going to, in particular the Boring But Big template) after linear gains from a beginner routine have been exhausted.0 -
Don't change the routine, change your "supplementation"
I don't think a guy at his level needs to worry about that.
I assumed he meant what lifts I add to a basic 5x5 program?
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but he means that if you want to be able to reasonably maintain that routine you'd need to be on PEDs. Hence, "supplements".
Yes I was being sarcastic and yes I was referring to steroids, but MFP moderators get all pissy when someone suggests it.0 -
Look at Wendler's 5/3/1. There is specific programming for 4 days a week. It basically comes down to doing 1 major lift on each day: Squat, Deadlift, Bench, OHP, and then assistance work. Deload weeks are built in to the program. It's a great program for once you've reached "intermediate" level.
Right this is one of the intermmediate routines I mentioned (and what i plan on going to, in particular the Boring But Big template) after linear gains from a beginner routine have been exhausted.
There is now a 5/3/1 for beginners, but I think this program may just be for powerlifter enthusiasts, someone could certainly benefit from the program regardless.0 -
Bump to read through later.0
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bumping to read later; looks like a treasure chest of info.0
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OMG you did more than 3 exercises? How do you live!!!?!?!?!?!?
Do you enjoy it?
Are you making gains?
There's merit to doing some grinding, and plenty of people have made tremendous gains with that paradigm (look at the olympic lifters who squat every single day, or the training programs from guys who set world records in the 70s that still stand today. Look at some of the better conditioning and strength programs for wrestling, football, boxing, etc in high schools and colleges. Now compare that with your average joe who lifts 5x5 on 2 moves once every six and half freaking months).
I'm not saying going balls out is right for everybody, and for people who it is beneficial for won't get the same benefit indefinitely, but if you want to crank it out and are self-aware enough to know when you've had enough, why not?
You may not NEED to put as much work in to get strong or defined, but I don't think you can write-off the benefits of that kind of training style so quickly.0 -
I reckon with enough smarts (and time) you could actually do a 4 day on program without burnout, and without gear - but for most people the amount of time required would be prohibitive.
But if you applied most of the tricks of training I reckon it could be done. Things like taking advantage of insulin spiking, splitting your routine, deloading using power weeks, plyo, and even things like negative reps...
Maybe I should look into it and guinea pig myself to document it. Lol!0 -
look at the olympic lifters who squat every single day
I squat 5 times a week does that count?0
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