heavy lifting and over training
Replies
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You're talking about dudes with the highest hormone levels\best recovery ability of their lives though. Us older men can't recover at the same rate as people that young.
I'm 27 and played sports in college. I can't do what I did back then even now, but I am personally able to handle back to back workouts. I'm sure that'll change as I age, which is why I think it's most important to pay attention to your body and do what you enjoy.
A fair point. I really hope they do more research on total recovery times. I think that would be very useful.That depends on whether your body can replenish 5-HT within 24 hours completely - not to mention obvious muscle fibre tear/repair into the bargain.
Obviously if you're training at a high intensity level, there is a possibility that 5-HT is not fully replenished (amongst other neurotransmitters) by the time you get to your next workout - at which point you deplete those levels even more, and it's eventually a downward spiral.
Studies however have been shown to prove that BCAA supplementation is important as it does improve recovery (which is a bit of a no-brainer). Tryptophan supplementation has also been researched as it is the precursor to 5-HT.
I do reckon that depletion does play a contributory effect when we're talking about pushing the envelope. If we're talking about general health and fitness? Not so much.
Nevertheless, I thought I would bring it up as a contributory factor when we're talking about overtraining, which it is.0 -
Just one example, but a lot of research kinda works around the same theory (which makes sense):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9000155
The research revolves around neurotransmitter depletion as the cause under heavy loads, which does make perfect sense.
Also the affect of ammonia build up is a contributory factor.
Yes, but isn't this a study on the more immediate effects, not the effects following a full night's sleep?
That depends on whether your body can replenish 5-HT within 24 hours completely - not to mention obvious muscle fibre tear/repair into the bargain.
Obviously if you're training at a high intensity level, there is a possibility that 5-HT is not fully replenished (amongst other neurotransmitters) by the time you get to your next workout - at which point you deplete those levels even more, and it's eventually a downward spiral.
Studies however have been shown to prove that BCAA supplementation is important as it does improve recovery (which is a bit of a no-brainer). Tryptophan supplementation has also been researched as it is the precursor to 5-HT.
I do reckon that depletion does play a contributory effect when we're talking about pushing the envelope. If we're talking about general health and fitness? Not so much.
Nevertheless, I thought I would bring it up as a contributory factor when we're talking about overtraining, which it is.
Also... There is the effect of adrenal fatigue which is much longer term than just neurotransmitters.
There is plenty of evidence that does indicate that overtraining in itself can cause CNS impairment due to neurotransmitter depletion - there is also a fair bit about the hormonal effects of overtraining (read up adrenal fatigue) which can be just as significant.
If you've got time to read as a quick example:
http://www.cnelm.com/NutritionPractitioner/Issues/Issue_11_1/Articles/3 Overtrainingformatted4_IC_ML3.pdf
Add pdf at the end if you can't see it...
This does scientifically make sense.0 -
Right this is one of the intermmediate routines I mentioned
No it's not. Jim himself wrote in his own book that he trains beginners with it. It's very simple and preaches the same basic principles about form and erring on the side of light with weight selection that Rippletoe and the other SL dude preach. I've used 5/3/1 for a long time and there's no reason that a beginner can't use 5/3/1; it's just that simple and user-friendly. Getting into something like Conjugate or Sheiko is debatable for a beginner.
RE Recovery: You have to judge yourself on the recovery. A four lifting session week is commonplace but you do need to be aware of how much cardio you're doing. If you're feeling well then keep it going. Common signs of over-training or exhaustion, irritability, trouble sleeping, problems with appetite, just to name a few. When those warning signs start popping up, then take a de-load or possibly even a total break for a couple days.0 -
That depends on whether your body can replenish 5-HT within 24 hours completely - not to mention obvious muscle fibre tear/repair into the bargain.
Obviously if you're training at a high intensity level, there is a possibility that 5-HT is not fully replenished (amongst other neurotransmitters) by the time you get to your next workout - at which point you deplete those levels even more, and it's eventually a downward spiral.
Studies however have been shown to prove that BCAA supplementation is important as it does improve recovery (which is a bit of a no-brainer). Tryptophan supplementation has also been researched as it is the precursor to 5-HT.
I do reckon that depletion does play a contributory effect when we're talking about pushing the envelope. If we're talking about general health and fitness? Not so much.
Nevertheless, I thought I would bring it up as a contributory factor when we're talking about overtraining, which it is.
Also... There is the effect of adrenal fatigue which is much longer term than just neurotransmitters.
There is plenty of evidence that does indicate that overtraining in itself can cause CNS impairment due to neurotransmitter depletion - there is also a fair bit about the hormonal effects of overtraining (read up adrenal fatigue) which can be just as significant.
If you've got time to read as a quick example:
http://www.cnelm.com/NutritionPractitioner/Issues/Issue_11_1/Articles/3 Overtrainingformatted4_IC_ML3.pdf
Add pdf at the end if you can't see it...
This does scientifically make sense.
[/quote]
Quite a good read, but to be fair he didn't ask the rugger to change his workout
. I think there's a lot of good information in there for someone who is fearful of overtraining though.
qftRE Recovery: You have to judge yourself on the recovery. A four lifting session week is commonplace but you do need to be aware of how much cardio you're doing. If you're feeling well then keep it going. Common signs of over-training or exhaustion, irritability, trouble sleeping, problems with appetite, just to name a few. When those warning signs start popping up, then take a de-load or possibly even a total break for a couple days.0 -
Back when I lifted heavy, I made my best gains on a 5-day/week body-part split. Not more than an hour in the weight room and lots of super setting and training techniques.
Listen to your body. If you aren't seeing progress, you are overtraining. As you know, there is a lot of science that goes into training; why rebel against what works in the weight room?
Anyway, it doesn't hurt to try something new; usually the body likes that. I would give a few different routines a try just to see what happens. By giving your muscles 48 of rest and working other body parts in between, your workouts will be more effective to gain strength and mass. You might be happily surprised.0 -
qftRE Recovery: You have to judge yourself on the recovery. A four lifting session week is commonplace but you do need to be aware of how much cardio you're doing. If you're feeling well then keep it going. Common signs of over-training or exhaustion, irritability, trouble sleeping, problems with appetite, just to name a few. When those warning signs start popping up, then take a de-load or possibly even a total break for a couple days.
The other piece of this is your own personal stress. Marriage, kids, work, mom, dad, friends all can add varying levels of stress to your life which will wear you down very badly. I just finished my divorce a few weeks ago and having the energy AND focus to hit the weights four days a week was really tough.0 -
Right this is one of the intermmediate routines I mentioned
No it's not. Jim himself wrote in his own book that he trains beginners with it. It's very simple and preaches the same basic principles about form and erring on the side of light with weight selection that Rippletoe and the other SL dude preach. I've used 5/3/1 for a long time and there's no reason that a beginner can't use 5/3/1; it's just that simple and user-friendly. Getting into something like Conjugate or Sheiko is debatable for a beginner.
RE Recovery: You have to judge yourself on the recovery. A four lifting session week is commonplace but you do need to be aware of how much cardio you're doing. If you're feeling well then keep it going. Common signs of over-training or exhaustion, irritability, trouble sleeping, problems with appetite, just to name a few. When those warning signs start popping up, then take a de-load or possibly even a total break for a couple days.
I guess it depends on template etc but most of what i have heard\read is that it progresses in weight monthly vs per workout which is much slower than a beginner should be progressing. If there is a version with per workout progression, then I would consider that a beginner version.0 -
I dont know about you, but this routine would have me in a wheel chair in less than 2 weeks. I couldn't image having deadlifts and squats on days right next to each other. And then twice a week? Wow you're superman.
Squats and deads are great full body exercises but they take a huge toll on your back and core. I do both only once a week and they're seperated by 3 full days. When I do these lifts I go so heavy (90% 1RM for 5 sets) that I couldnt possibly do them again the next day... not even the rest of the week!0 -
I dont know about you, but this routine would have me in a wheel chair in less than 2 weeks. I couldn't image having deadlifts and squats on days right next to each other. And then twice a week? Wow you're superman.
Squats and deads are great full body exercises but they take a huge toll on your back and core. I do both only once a week and they're seperated by 3 full days. When I do these lifts I go so heavy (90% 1RM for 5 sets) that I couldnt possibly do them again the next day... not even the rest of the week!
Well it depends on training level\weight you can lift and recovery ability. I squat 3 times per week and deadlift 3 times per 2 weeks. I do squats and deadlifts on the same day. Within the same 45 minutes. But, I am not moving a huge amount of weight, so I can manage it.0 -
I think most people grossly over training. In my opinion there is no requirement to be in the gym 4-5 days as many people do. Its counter productive. People blindly follow some stupid routine (prescribed by the cover model who is likely injecting steroids) that they have read in a magazine. I think people would be best thinking about things logically before jumping into a routine that takes over your life and eventually leaves you over trained.
years ago I would spend 2 hours a time in the gym 4 days a week, without recording progress and trying to feel the 'pump' (which I thought was important at the time).
A few years back I read alot of the HIT stuff out there (by Doug Mcguff and Mike Mentzer) and changed the way I thought about productive exercise completely.
I've been doing a push/pull split with a workout A and B. So only working out twice a week. I do 2 warm up sets ramping the weight and 1 set to failure, carefully looking after my form and recording number of reps achieved and weight used.
I can honestly say I've made more gains in the last year using this method than I did in 7 years doing stupid high volume routines.
I think in conclusion you need to keep an eye on the volume, include the big lifts (injuries permitting) and make sure you are monitoring and actively looking at progression (reps or weight increase). i found that I could actually do very little exercise and still make progress as long as my diet was good and I had plenty of rest0 -
Right this is one of the intermmediate routines I mentioned
No it's not. Jim himself wrote in his own book that he trains beginners with it. It's very simple and preaches the same basic principles about form and erring on the side of light with weight selection that Rippletoe and the other SL dude preach. I've used 5/3/1 for a long time and there's no reason that a beginner can't use 5/3/1; it's just that simple and user-friendly. Getting into something like Conjugate or Sheiko is debatable for a beginner.
RE Recovery: You have to judge yourself on the recovery. A four lifting session week is commonplace but you do need to be aware of how much cardio you're doing. If you're feeling well then keep it going. Common signs of over-training or exhaustion, irritability, trouble sleeping, problems with appetite, just to name a few. When those warning signs start popping up, then take a de-load or possibly even a total break for a couple days.
I guess it depends on template etc but most of what i have heard\read is that it progresses in weight monthly vs per workout which is much slower than a beginner should be progressing. If there is a version with per workout progression, then I would consider that a beginner version.
Yup, Jim does specifically review training with beginners in his book. One thing he says is that the hardest thing for a beginner is learning do do the movements correctly but that'll be a problem with any method. Jim has a pretty cool full-body plan in his book as well and if I didn't like training four-days a week so much I might try it. Really, anybody that reads his book and understands the very basics of what his plan is can see that it's very reasonable for anybody of any experience level.
- main movement with his 5/3/1 format, which works out to 3 warm-ups sets and 3 work sets, the last set being a ball-buster. But anybody who's afraid to work that hard for 1 set should probably go to Pilates instead.
- 2 to 4 accessory movements and we're not talking **** like kickbacks and leg extensions. He prescribes things like Dips, Chin-ups, Back Extensions, some rowing, and ab work. Basic movements to help progress your strength and promote muscle balance and health.
I don't know that the progress is any slower, Jim encourages people to progress the weight slowly so they learn the lifts and not hit the "wall" so quickly but that definitely doesn't mean their results would be any less than something like SL's or SS.0 -
I think most people grossly over training. In my opinion there is no requirement to be in the gym 4-5 days as many people do. Its counter productive. People blindly follow some stupid routine (prescribed by the cover model who is likely injecting steroids) that they have read in a magazine.
Agreed that a lot of people read too much Muscle Fantasy and Flex but I think another component of over-training is nutrition and people not eating right and/or enough. All things being good (diet, stress level, sleep, good exercise programming) I don't think 4 days is overdoing it by any means. Set aside everything else for a minute then it really comes down to how your routine is structured. If you come in 5 days a week and try to squat a 1RM or even a 5RM every session then there could be a problem. But if you Squat multiple times a week and one day is a Max Effort, one is a Dynamic Effort, and maybe one is just some light repetition work then that could be okay. Dan John has his clients Squat almost daily; it's all in the approach.0 -
Right this is one of the intermmediate routines I mentioned
No it's not. Jim himself wrote in his own book that he trains beginners with it. It's very simple and preaches the same basic principles about form and erring on the side of light with weight selection that Rippletoe and the other SL dude preach. I've used 5/3/1 for a long time and there's no reason that a beginner can't use 5/3/1; it's just that simple and user-friendly. Getting into something like Conjugate or Sheiko is debatable for a beginner.
RE Recovery: You have to judge yourself on the recovery. A four lifting session week is commonplace but you do need to be aware of how much cardio you're doing. If you're feeling well then keep it going. Common signs of over-training or exhaustion, irritability, trouble sleeping, problems with appetite, just to name a few. When those warning signs start popping up, then take a de-load or possibly even a total break for a couple days.
I guess it depends on template etc but most of what i have heard\read is that it progresses in weight monthly vs per workout which is much slower than a beginner should be progressing. If there is a version with per workout progression, then I would consider that a beginner version.
Yup, Jim does specifically review training with beginners in his book. One thing he says is that the hardest thing for a beginner is learning do do the movements correctly but that'll be a problem with any method. Jim has a pretty cool full-body plan in his book as well and if I didn't like training four-days a week so much I might try it. Really, anybody that reads his book and understands the very basics of what his plan is can see that it's very reasonable for anybody of any experience level.
- main movement with his 5/3/1 format, which works out to 3 warm-ups sets and 3 work sets, the last set being a ball-buster. But anybody who's afraid to work that hard for 1 set should probably go to Pilates instead.
- 2 to 4 accessory movements and we're not talking **** like kickbacks and leg extensions. He prescribes things like Dips, Chin-ups, Back Extensions, some rowing, and ab work. Basic movements to help progress your strength and promote muscle balance and health.
I don't know that the progress is any slower, Jim encourages people to progress the weight slowly so they learn the lifts and not hit the "wall" so quickly but that definitely doesn't mean their results would be any less than something like SL's or SS.
I've seen one full body 3 day template, but it still had the big lifts only once per wekk, which is much too low frequency for a beginner. If yo have read the book, why don't you tell me what the progression scheme is? Stuff like Starting Strength and Stronglifts has you add 60lbs per month to work sets for squats and deadlifts and 30lbs per month to bench, ohp, and power cleans\rows.0 -
Right this is one of the intermmediate routines I mentioned
No it's not. Jim himself wrote in his own book that he trains beginners with it. It's very simple and preaches the same basic principles about form and erring on the side of light with weight selection that Rippletoe and the other SL dude preach. I've used 5/3/1 for a long time and there's no reason that a beginner can't use 5/3/1; it's just that simple and user-friendly. Getting into something like Conjugate or Sheiko is debatable for a beginner.
RE Recovery: You have to judge yourself on the recovery. A four lifting session week is commonplace but you do need to be aware of how much cardio you're doing. If you're feeling well then keep it going. Common signs of over-training or exhaustion, irritability, trouble sleeping, problems with appetite, just to name a few. When those warning signs start popping up, then take a de-load or possibly even a total break for a couple days.
I guess it depends on template etc but most of what i have heard\read is that it progresses in weight monthly vs per workout which is much slower than a beginner should be progressing. If there is a version with per workout progression, then I would consider that a beginner version.
Yup, Jim does specifically review training with beginners in his book. One thing he says is that the hardest thing for a beginner is learning do do the movements correctly but that'll be a problem with any method. Jim has a pretty cool full-body plan in his book as well and if I didn't like training four-days a week so much I might try it. Really, anybody that reads his book and understands the very basics of what his plan is can see that it's very reasonable for anybody of any experience level.
- main movement with his 5/3/1 format, which works out to 3 warm-ups sets and 3 work sets, the last set being a ball-buster. But anybody who's afraid to work that hard for 1 set should probably go to Pilates instead.
- 2 to 4 accessory movements and we're not talking **** like kickbacks and leg extensions. He prescribes things like Dips, Chin-ups, Back Extensions, some rowing, and ab work. Basic movements to help progress your strength and promote muscle balance and health.
I don't know that the progress is any slower, Jim encourages people to progress the weight slowly so they learn the lifts and not hit the "wall" so quickly but that definitely doesn't mean their results would be any less than something like SL's or SS.
I've seen one full body 3 day template, but it still had the big lifts only once per wekk, which is much too low frequency for a beginner. If yo have read the book, why don't you tell me what the progression scheme is? Stuff like Starting Strength and Stronglifts has you add 60lbs per month to work sets for squats and deadlifts and 30lbs per month to bench, ohp, and power cleans\rows.
They have you adding so much weight per month because you start so ridiculously low, 5/3/1 starts low but it starts at 90% of your 1RM; it's low but still low enough for a beginner.
Cycle 1 is basically (just looking at the 4-week split)
- week 1 main sets are 5 reps, 5 reps, 5+ (minimum of 5, max out on reps)
- week 2 main sets are 3 reps, 3 reps, 3+
- week 3 main sets are 5 reps, 3 reps, 1+
- week 4 is a deload
Cycle 2 begins: add 5 to 10 lbs to upper body and 10 to 20lbs lower body. Jim always recommend erring on the side of light so you don't hit the wall so fast.
You said you haven't tried or even read his book for that matter, so you really need to get the book and just do it before you lend judgement to it. There's nothing wrong with Starting Strength and SL's 5x5 is better than nothing. Though I feel 5/3/1 as a method is superior to SL's 5x5, my initial argument wasn't that it's superior it's that it's not just an intermediate / advanced program. It's very much an all-around program.0 -
Right this is one of the intermmediate routines I mentioned
No it's not. Jim himself wrote in his own book that he trains beginners with it. It's very simple and preaches the same basic principles about form and erring on the side of light with weight selection that Rippletoe and the other SL dude preach. I've used 5/3/1 for a long time and there's no reason that a beginner can't use 5/3/1; it's just that simple and user-friendly. Getting into something like Conjugate or Sheiko is debatable for a beginner.
RE Recovery: You have to judge yourself on the recovery. A four lifting session week is commonplace but you do need to be aware of how much cardio you're doing. If you're feeling well then keep it going. Common signs of over-training or exhaustion, irritability, trouble sleeping, problems with appetite, just to name a few. When those warning signs start popping up, then take a de-load or possibly even a total break for a couple days.
I guess it depends on template etc but most of what i have heard\read is that it progresses in weight monthly vs per workout which is much slower than a beginner should be progressing. If there is a version with per workout progression, then I would consider that a beginner version.
Yup, Jim does specifically review training with beginners in his book. One thing he says is that the hardest thing for a beginner is learning do do the movements correctly but that'll be a problem with any method. Jim has a pretty cool full-body plan in his book as well and if I didn't like training four-days a week so much I might try it. Really, anybody that reads his book and understands the very basics of what his plan is can see that it's very reasonable for anybody of any experience level.
- main movement with his 5/3/1 format, which works out to 3 warm-ups sets and 3 work sets, the last set being a ball-buster. But anybody who's afraid to work that hard for 1 set should probably go to Pilates instead.
- 2 to 4 accessory movements and we're not talking **** like kickbacks and leg extensions. He prescribes things like Dips, Chin-ups, Back Extensions, some rowing, and ab work. Basic movements to help progress your strength and promote muscle balance and health.
I don't know that the progress is any slower, Jim encourages people to progress the weight slowly so they learn the lifts and not hit the "wall" so quickly but that definitely doesn't mean their results would be any less than something like SL's or SS.
I've seen one full body 3 day template, but it still had the big lifts only once per wekk, which is much too low frequency for a beginner. If yo have read the book, why don't you tell me what the progression scheme is? Stuff like Starting Strength and Stronglifts has you add 60lbs per month to work sets for squats and deadlifts and 30lbs per month to bench, ohp, and power cleans\rows.
They have you adding so much weight per month because you start so ridiculously low, 5/3/1 starts low but it starts at 90% of your 1RM; it's low but still low enough for a beginner.
Cycle 1 is basically (just looking at the 4-week split)
- week 1 main sets are 5 reps, 5 reps, 5+ (minimum of 5, max out on reps)
- week 2 main sets are 3 reps, 3 reps, 3+
- week 3 main sets are 5 reps, 3 reps, 1+
- week 4 is a deload
Cycle 2 begins: add 5 to 10 lbs to upper body and 10 to 20lbs lower body. Jim always recommend erring on the side of light so you don't hit the wall so fast.
You said you haven't tried or even read his book for that matter, so you really need to get the book and just do it before you lend judgement to it. There's nothing wrong with Starting Strength and SL's 5x5 is better than nothing. Though I feel 5/3/1 as a method is superior to SL's 5x5, my initial argument wasn't that it's superior it's that it's not just an intermediate / advanced program. It's very much an all-around program.
So 10 to 20 lbs per month added is better than 60 on squats and deadlifts and 30 on bench ohp and power cleans? If you want to get stronger slower I guess... And no, I don't need to read the book and try it right now because you have proven my point that it is slower progression to be used by someone advanced enough that they can not progress as fast as a beginner like me. I am not nor would I ever say it's a bad routine. I plan to do it myself. I just plan on waiting until it is closer to fitting my training level and recovery ability. I mean cmon. Someone just starts lifting for the first time ever, can't even squat over 100lbs, is benching with an empty bar, benches and squats once per week, and needs to deload on week 4? After squatting and benching 3 times ever in their life? LULZ.0 -
Right this is one of the intermmediate routines I mentioned
No it's not. Jim himself wrote in his own book that he trains beginners with it. It's very simple and preaches the same basic principles about form and erring on the side of light with weight selection that Rippletoe and the other SL dude preach. I've used 5/3/1 for a long time and there's no reason that a beginner can't use 5/3/1; it's just that simple and user-friendly. Getting into something like Conjugate or Sheiko is debatable for a beginner.
RE Recovery: You have to judge yourself on the recovery. A four lifting session week is commonplace but you do need to be aware of how much cardio you're doing. If you're feeling well then keep it going. Common signs of over-training or exhaustion, irritability, trouble sleeping, problems with appetite, just to name a few. When those warning signs start popping up, then take a de-load or possibly even a total break for a couple days.
I guess it depends on template etc but most of what i have heard\read is that it progresses in weight monthly vs per workout which is much slower than a beginner should be progressing. If there is a version with per workout progression, then I would consider that a beginner version.
Yup, Jim does specifically review training with beginners in his book. One thing he says is that the hardest thing for a beginner is learning do do the movements correctly but that'll be a problem with any method. Jim has a pretty cool full-body plan in his book as well and if I didn't like training four-days a week so much I might try it. Really, anybody that reads his book and understands the very basics of what his plan is can see that it's very reasonable for anybody of any experience level.
- main movement with his 5/3/1 format, which works out to 3 warm-ups sets and 3 work sets, the last set being a ball-buster. But anybody who's afraid to work that hard for 1 set should probably go to Pilates instead.
- 2 to 4 accessory movements and we're not talking **** like kickbacks and leg extensions. He prescribes things like Dips, Chin-ups, Back Extensions, some rowing, and ab work. Basic movements to help progress your strength and promote muscle balance and health.
I don't know that the progress is any slower, Jim encourages people to progress the weight slowly so they learn the lifts and not hit the "wall" so quickly but that definitely doesn't mean their results would be any less than something like SL's or SS.
I've seen one full body 3 day template, but it still had the big lifts only once per wekk, which is much too low frequency for a beginner. If yo have read the book, why don't you tell me what the progression scheme is? Stuff like Starting Strength and Stronglifts has you add 60lbs per month to work sets for squats and deadlifts and 30lbs per month to bench, ohp, and power cleans\rows.
They have you adding so much weight per month because you start so ridiculously low, 5/3/1 starts low but it starts at 90% of your 1RM; it's low but still low enough for a beginner.
Cycle 1 is basically (just looking at the 4-week split)
- week 1 main sets are 5 reps, 5 reps, 5+ (minimum of 5, max out on reps)
- week 2 main sets are 3 reps, 3 reps, 3+
- week 3 main sets are 5 reps, 3 reps, 1+
- week 4 is a deload
Cycle 2 begins: add 5 to 10 lbs to upper body and 10 to 20lbs lower body. Jim always recommend erring on the side of light so you don't hit the wall so fast.
You said you haven't tried or even read his book for that matter, so you really need to get the book and just do it before you lend judgement to it. There's nothing wrong with Starting Strength and SL's 5x5 is better than nothing. Though I feel 5/3/1 as a method is superior to SL's 5x5, my initial argument wasn't that it's superior it's that it's not just an intermediate / advanced program. It's very much an all-around program.
So 10 to 20 lbs per month added is better than 60 on squats and deadlifts and 30 on bench ohp and power cleans? If you want to get stronger slower I guess... And no, I don't need to read the book and try it right now because you have proven my point that it is slower progression to be used by someone advanced enough that they can not progress as fast as a beginner like me. I am not nor would I ever say it's a bad routine. I plan to do it myself. I just plan on waiting until it is closer to fitting my training level and recovery ability. I mean cmon. Someone just starts lifting for the first time ever, can't even squat over 100lbs, is benching with an empty bar, benches and squats once per week, and needs to deload on week 4? After squatting and benching 3 times ever in their life? LULZ.
Seriously, the first time you did squats you couldn't squat 100lbs? The very first time I benched at age 13 I could bench 115 for a deuce. Let's really compare the two for a beginner using my bench stat:
Bench Press:
StrongLifts 5x5: Starting weight (bar) 45lbs. end of month add 30lbs I'm benching 75lbs. Correct?
5/3/1. My 1RM (let's just say it's 115 for a single): Training weight x 90% = 103lbs, round to 105lbs. The last week of 5/3/1 my hardest set will be 98lbs and let's just say for the hell of it I round down and it's 95lbs. I reset my cycle and add 5lbs I'm now benching 100lbs next month. My math ain't the greatest but in Nevada 100lbs > 75lbs sir.
The increase is just what your work sets are; it's not indicative of what your true (not calculated) 1RM has become after one month. Going back to the SL's example using my strength, after month 1 I'm doing 75lbs, after month 2 I'm doing 105 lbs if you stay with a consistent 30lb gain each month correct? But that's not true strength gain, that's just catching up to strength I already possessed. Furthermore, it's not likely that I would add a full 30lbs after the 3rd month because that would be 15lbs over my existing 1RM; it's more likely that I would only get a portion of it.
You obviously like a certain program and that's fine, but you're closing your mind off to other concepts that are just as effective. It's just a matter of preference whether you follow SL's, Rippletoe, Wendler, Tate, Boris, Simmons, Staley, etc.0 -
I want to read all these comments later.0
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This is a great thread with a lot of really good advice! Commenting to keep reading the responses later :-)0
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Seriously, the first time you did squats you couldn't squat 100lbs? The very first time I benched at age 13 I could bench 115 for a deuce. Let's really compare the two for a beginner using my bench stat:
Bench Press:
StrongLifts 5x5: Starting weight (bar) 45lbs. end of month add 30lbs I'm benching 75lbs. Correct?
5/3/1. My 1RM (let's just say it's 115 for a single): Training weight x 90% = 103lbs, round to 105lbs. The last week of 5/3/1 my hardest set will be 98lbs and let's just say for the hell of it I round down and it's 95lbs. I reset my cycle and add 5lbs I'm now benching 100lbs next month. My math ain't the greatest but in Nevada 100lbs > 75lbs sir.
The increase is just what your work sets are; it's not indicative of what your true (not calculated) 1RM has become after one month. Going back to the SL's example using my strength, after month 1 I'm doing 75lbs, after month 2 I'm doing 105 lbs if you stay with a consistent 30lb gain each month correct? But that's not true strength gain, that's just catching up to strength I already possessed. Furthermore, it's not likely that I would add a full 30lbs after the 3rd month because that would be 15lbs over my existing 1RM; it's more likely that I would only get a portion of it.
You obviously like a certain program and that's fine, but you're closing your mind off to other concepts that are just as effective. It's just a matter of preference whether you follow SL's, Rippletoe, Wendler, Tate, Boris, Simmons, Staley, etc.
Stronglifts is start with empty bar yes, but Starting Strength is start with whatever weight casues bar speed to slow. So do your math again with a starting weight of 90 lbs (12 lbs under what the predictive 5rm for a 115 1rm would be) on Starting Strength and adding 30 lbs per month and do your math again. Do it over a few months. Do it over 6 months. Tell me what you get. Stronger faster than some idiot running 5/3/1 as a beginner? Yeah, I thought so.0 -
Sorry for the delay getting back to this thread...
Workout A (Monday and Thursday)
5x5 bench press
5x5 weighted pull-ups
5x5 squats
5x5 incline dumbbell press
5x5 standing upright rows
Workout B (Tuesday and Friday)
5x5 deadlifts
5x5 overhead dumbbell press
5x5 t-bar rows
5x5 weighted dips
I don't know what my 1RM is on any of these, but weight is enough so, at the very least I'm struggling to get through all 5 sets, and in most cases I'm struggling to get through each set.
Cals are ~400 over TDEE.
Sleep is harder to guage... Try for > 8 hours, but I'm not a good/steady sleeper, so depending on how often I wake up and how long I'm up, could be anywhere from 5 hours on a bad night to 8-9 on a good night.
I'm back and glad to see this is still a great thread. I'm requoting the OPs routine to make sure we're on the same page.
I don't have a problem at all with lifting 4 days a week. I myself was very successful with it. It's this particular routine. When some of you are saying lifting 4x per week is ok, are you specifically talking about this routine?
For those that point out working the same muscles multiple days is okay because you work with different weights and tempos each day, is that what you are seeing here? I'm not. I'm seeing low rep, all out to failure work being done on the same muscles in a 4 out of 5 day period. I know I can't do it. Heck, I did chest 36 hours ago and I can't do pushups right now, much less weighted dips.
Add in that the OP isn't a 19 year old Big Ten scholarship recruit, has a job and family, and may be doing some endurance work to stay sharp for his competition, and I don't see how this is sustainable without monthly trips to Tijuana.
Recapping my view:
Lift heavy 4+ times per week? Sure!
Train same muscles several times per week? Go for it!
Train dynamically with same days heavy, some high rep, some explosive? Sounds great.
Train to failure @5x5 on back to back days on same muscle, then go back to back a day later? No. Just no. Hell to the naw.0 -
Seriously, the first time you did squats you couldn't squat 100lbs? The very first time I benched at age 13 I could bench 115 for a deuce. Let's really compare the two for a beginner using my bench stat:
Bench Press:
StrongLifts 5x5: Starting weight (bar) 45lbs. end of month add 30lbs I'm benching 75lbs. Correct?
5/3/1. My 1RM (let's just say it's 115 for a single): Training weight x 90% = 103lbs, round to 105lbs. The last week of 5/3/1 my hardest set will be 98lbs and let's just say for the hell of it I round down and it's 95lbs. I reset my cycle and add 5lbs I'm now benching 100lbs next month. My math ain't the greatest but in Nevada 100lbs > 75lbs sir.
The increase is just what your work sets are; it's not indicative of what your true (not calculated) 1RM has become after one month. Going back to the SL's example using my strength, after month 1 I'm doing 75lbs, after month 2 I'm doing 105 lbs if you stay with a consistent 30lb gain each month correct? But that's not true strength gain, that's just catching up to strength I already possessed. Furthermore, it's not likely that I would add a full 30lbs after the 3rd month because that would be 15lbs over my existing 1RM; it's more likely that I would only get a portion of it.
You obviously like a certain program and that's fine, but you're closing your mind off to other concepts that are just as effective. It's just a matter of preference whether you follow SL's, Rippletoe, Wendler, Tate, Boris, Simmons, Staley, etc.
Stronglifts is start with empty bar yes, but Starting Strength is start with whatever weight casues bar speed to slow. So do your math again with a starting weight of 90 lbs (12 lbs under what the predictive 5rm for a 115 1rm would be) on Starting Strength and adding 30 lbs per month and do your math again. Do it over a few months. Do it over 6 months. Tell me what you get. Stronger faster than some idiot running 5/3/1 as a beginner? Yeah, I thought so.
Nobody is going to increase 30lbs a month for 6-months, that's ridiculous to think. Nobody is going to go from 45 lbs (or whatever is "slow") to 225lbs (45 + 180 (30*6)) then you're crazy and obviously have very little experience with lifting. Whatever dude, you're getting all ****ty for no reason and all I'm trying to do is discuss why something isn't what it is claimed to be by people that have no experience with it. I humble bow out and will no longer continue to argue with somebody that is clueless.
To the OP, I suggest you read for yourself and not take all this at face value and find what works best for you.0 -
Seriously, the first time you did squats you couldn't squat 100lbs? The very first time I benched at age 13 I could bench 115 for a deuce. Let's really compare the two for a beginner using my bench stat:
Bench Press:
StrongLifts 5x5: Starting weight (bar) 45lbs. end of month add 30lbs I'm benching 75lbs. Correct?
5/3/1. My 1RM (let's just say it's 115 for a single): Training weight x 90% = 103lbs, round to 105lbs. The last week of 5/3/1 my hardest set will be 98lbs and let's just say for the hell of it I round down and it's 95lbs. I reset my cycle and add 5lbs I'm now benching 100lbs next month. My math ain't the greatest but in Nevada 100lbs > 75lbs sir.
The increase is just what your work sets are; it's not indicative of what your true (not calculated) 1RM has become after one month. Going back to the SL's example using my strength, after month 1 I'm doing 75lbs, after month 2 I'm doing 105 lbs if you stay with a consistent 30lb gain each month correct? But that's not true strength gain, that's just catching up to strength I already possessed. Furthermore, it's not likely that I would add a full 30lbs after the 3rd month because that would be 15lbs over my existing 1RM; it's more likely that I would only get a portion of it.
You obviously like a certain program and that's fine, but you're closing your mind off to other concepts that are just as effective. It's just a matter of preference whether you follow SL's, Rippletoe, Wendler, Tate, Boris, Simmons, Staley, etc.
Stronglifts is start with empty bar yes, but Starting Strength is start with whatever weight casues bar speed to slow. So do your math again with a starting weight of 90 lbs (12 lbs under what the predictive 5rm for a 115 1rm would be) on Starting Strength and adding 30 lbs per month and do your math again. Do it over a few months. Do it over 6 months. Tell me what you get. Stronger faster than some idiot running 5/3/1 as a beginner? Yeah, I thought so.
Nobody is going to increase 30lbs a month for 6-months, that's ridiculous to think. Nobody is going to go from 45 lbs (or whatever is "slow") to 225lbs (45 + 180 (30*6)) then you're crazy and obviously have very little experience with lifting. Whatever dude, you're getting all ****ty for no reason and all I'm trying to do is discuss why something isn't what it is claimed to be by people that have no experience with it. I humble bow out and will no longer continue to argue with somebody that is clueless.
To the OP, I suggest you read for yourself and not take all this at face value and find what works best for you.
Of course not. There will be stalls and resets along they way, but it will go a hell of a lot faster than 10 lbs per month. Why do you keep sticking to one extreme or the other? First you stop at one month ignoring the the fact that the normal 3x5 trainee would surpass the 5/3/1 trainee in 2 months of your first scenario, then you jump all the way to 6 months to say "dude no one goes that fast you don't know anything neener neener!" I get ****ty over people giving out bad information. There is enough of it when it comes to lifting. There is no need for someone like you to come add more to it. Try going to an actual body building forum and post this nonsense and see what you get. Negged into the dirt. That's what.0 -
Sorry for the delay getting back to this thread...
Workout A (Monday and Thursday)
5x5 bench press
5x5 weighted pull-ups
5x5 squats
5x5 incline dumbbell press
5x5 standing upright rows
Workout B (Tuesday and Friday)
5x5 deadlifts
5x5 overhead dumbbell press
5x5 t-bar rows
5x5 weighted dips
I don't know what my 1RM is on any of these, but weight is enough so, at the very least I'm struggling to get through all 5 sets, and in most cases I'm struggling to get through each set.
Cals are ~400 over TDEE.
Sleep is harder to guage... Try for > 8 hours, but I'm not a good/steady sleeper, so depending on how often I wake up and how long I'm up, could be anywhere from 5 hours on a bad night to 8-9 on a good night.
I'm back and glad to see this is still a great thread. I'm requoting the OPs routine to make sure we're on the same page.
I don't have a problem at all with lifting 4 days a week. I myself was very successful with it. It's this particular routine. When some of you are saying lifting 4x per week is ok, are you specifically talking about this routine?
For those that point out working the same muscles multiple days is okay because you work with different weights and tempos each day, is that what you are seeing here? I'm not. I'm seeing low rep, all out to failure work being done on the same muscles in a 4 out of 5 day period. I know I can't do it. Heck, I did chest 36 hours ago and I can't do pushups right now, much less weighted dips.
Add in that the OP isn't a 19 year old Big Ten scholarship recruit, has a job and family, and may be doing some endurance work to stay sharp for his competition, and I don't see how this is sustainable without monthly trips to Tijuana.
Recapping my view:
Lift heavy 4+ times per week? Sure!
Train same muscles several times per week? Go for it!
Train dynamically with same days heavy, some high rep, some explosive? Sounds great.
Train to failure @5x5 on back to back days on same muscle, then go back to back a day later? No. Just no. Hell to the naw.
FWIW...
I don't lift to failure, but I get pretty close. Not really sure how to explain it, but I don't go until I can't get the weight back on the rack. My approach for the last year or so has been that if I can do 8 reps or more, the weight is too light. If I can't do at least 5, the weight is too heavy. It's served me well, I see steady gains (~5lbs per week if I'm eating right), and am able to lift what is heavy for me safely.
Also, I don't get sore. Tight? Definitely. Sore? No. Never have, not lifting, not racing. Some may think that suggests I'm not working hard enough. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't... not going to argue that point with people I'll never lift with. My point is that soreness doesn't limit my training.
.0 -
FWIW...
I don't lift to failure, but I get pretty close. Not really sure how to explain it, but I don't go until I can't get the weight back on the rack. My approach for the last year or so has been that if I can do 8 reps or more, the weight is too light. If I can't do at least 5, the weight is too heavy. It's served me well, I see steady gains (~5lbs per week if I'm eating right), and am able to lift what is heavy for me safely.
Also, I don't get sore. Tight? Definitely. Sore? No. Never have, not lifting, not racing. Some may think that suggests I'm not working hard enough. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't... not going to argue that point with people I'll never lift with. My point is that soreness doesn't limit my training.
.
Soreness or lack of is not a good indicator of workouts that do or do not produce results.0 -
FWIW...
I don't lift to failure, but I get pretty close. Not really sure how to explain it, but I don't go until I can't get the weight back on the rack. My approach for the last year or so has been that if I can do 8 reps or more, the weight is too light. If I can't do at least 5, the weight is too heavy. It's served me well, I see steady gains (~5lbs per week if I'm eating right), and am able to lift what is heavy for me safely.
Also, I don't get sore. Tight? Definitely. Sore? No. Never have, not lifting, not racing. Some may think that suggests I'm not working hard enough. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't... not going to argue that point with people I'll never lift with. My point is that soreness doesn't limit my training.
.
Soreness or lack of is not a good indicator of workouts that do or do not produce results.
I was going to type this but it's already here so I guess I'll just type ^^^^^this^^^^.0 -
FWIW...
I don't lift to failure, but I get pretty close. Not really sure how to explain it, but I don't go until I can't get the weight back on the rack. My approach for the last year or so has been that if I can do 8 reps or more, the weight is too light. If I can't do at least 5, the weight is too heavy. It's served me well, I see steady gains (~5lbs per week if I'm eating right), and am able to lift what is heavy for me safely.
Also, I don't get sore. Tight? Definitely. Sore? No. Never have, not lifting, not racing. Some may think that suggests I'm not working hard enough. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't... not going to argue that point with people I'll never lift with. My point is that soreness doesn't limit my training.
.
Soreness or lack of is not a good indicator of workouts that do or do not produce results.
I don't think so either, but a lot of people jump to that conclusion.0 -
I don't think so either, but a lot of people jump to that conclusion.
Unfortunately a lot of people jump to a lot of incorrect conclusions despite how hard others work to stop them.0 -
Of course not. There will be stalls and resets along they way, but it will go a hell of a lot faster than 10 lbs per month. Why do you keep sticking to one extreme or the other? First you stop at one month ignoring the the fact that the normal 3x5 trainee would surpass the 5/3/1 trainee in 2 months of your first scenario, then you jump all the way to 6 months to say "dude no one goes that fast you don't know anything neener neener!" I get ****ty over people giving out bad information. There is enough of it when it comes to lifting. There is no need for someone like you to come add more to it. Try going to an actual body building forum and post this nonsense and see what you get. Negged into the dirt. That's what.Unfortunately a lot of people jump to a lot of incorrect conclusions despite how hard others work to stop them.
Why do you make the assumption that you're correct in this? No one is arguing that SS or SL don't work, Nick was just saying 5/3/1 can work as well (just like I was saying high volume/intensity can work as well too). Even Wendler, you know, the guy who wrote the program you admitted to not being advanced enough to start yet, laid out a plan he stated was for beginners. There are other methods and strategies out there, your's isn't the only one that works.0 -
Of course not. There will be stalls and resets along they way, but it will go a hell of a lot faster than 10 lbs per month. Why do you keep sticking to one extreme or the other? First you stop at one month ignoring the the fact that the normal 3x5 trainee would surpass the 5/3/1 trainee in 2 months of your first scenario, then you jump all the way to 6 months to say "dude no one goes that fast you don't know anything neener neener!" I get ****ty over people giving out bad information. There is enough of it when it comes to lifting. There is no need for someone like you to come add more to it. Try going to an actual body building forum and post this nonsense and see what you get. Negged into the dirt. That's what.Unfortunately a lot of people jump to a lot of incorrect conclusions despite how hard others work to stop them.
Why do you make the assumption that you're correct in this? No one is arguing that SS or SL don't work, Nick was just saying 5/3/1 can work as well (just like I was saying high volume/intensity can work as well too). Even Wendler, you know, the guy who wrote the program you admitted to not being advanced enough to start yet, laid out a plan he stated was for beginners. There are other methods and strategies out there, your's isn't the only one that works.
Im going based on what I was told in this thread as far as progression speed of 5/3/1. If your goal is to get stronger as fast as possible, squatting 3 times per week adding 60 lbs per month to work sets is faster than squatting once per week, deloading every 4th week, and adding 10-20 lbs per month. There is pretty much no disputing that. And me saying I am not advanced enough has to do with my recovery ability and ability to add weight every workout, not my understanding of how anything in particular works or does not.0 -
Im going based on what I was told in this thread as far as progression speed of 5/3/1. If your goal is to get stronger as fast as possible, squatting 3 times per week adding 60 lbs per month to work sets is faster than squatting once per week, deloading every 4th week, and adding 10-20 lbs per month. There is pretty much no disputing that. And me saying I am not advanced enough has to do with my recovery ability and ability to add weight every workout, not my understanding of how anything in particular works or does not.
So increasing weight as quickly as possible is the best way then? Why not double the 5x5 weight increases then? Why not quadruple 5/3/1? Why not add two wheels every workout? At that rate you'll be squatting more than Kirk in a year. I'll give you a hint: 5 isn't a magic number. Having variance in how much you increase at a time can be tremendously useful at preventing stalls and maintaining progression. Equally so, there are high volume/high intensity workouts that can be tremendously useful.
You know the best time to lift like a maniac all the time? When you first start lifting. To take the 5x5 as an example, you start out squatting the bar for a total of 25 reps. This is to help you learn form and to keep you from stalling out too early. For some folks this is a lot, for others it's nothing. They could easily do 5x25 every single day and have no problems, it wouldn't be any harder than doing that many BW squats. If they did that, it would be 875 repetitions per week to practice form, vs 75.
At a certain point, the weight gets to be too much, and volume needs to be lowered. That point is different for everyone. For me, I had to cut back on deadlifting once I got over 315, it was taking it's toll on my back. I'm squatting 345 right now, and I could honestly be doing it 4 to 5 times a week without too much issue. I'm sure as the weight gets heavier that will change. I also imagine J hasn't reached the point where he'll need to cut back on volume yet. Given that he's a triathlete I believe he's fully capable of listening to his body's signals. As long as he's still making progression, the plan is fine.
The WHOLE point I'm trying to make is not to jump to 'zomg overtraining' or 'my plan is way better because I add moar weight' or whatever. There's so many plans out there because people respond better to certain things. Your's isn't the only way to do things.0
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