heavy lifting and over training

Determinednoob

Im going based on what I was told in this thread as far as progression speed of 5/3/1. If your goal is to get stronger as fast as possible, squatting 3 times per week adding 60 lbs per month to work sets is faster than squatting once per week, deloading every 4th week, and adding 10-20 lbs per month. There is pretty much no disputing that. And me saying I am not advanced enough has to do with my recovery ability and ability to add weight every workout, not my understanding of how anything in particular works or does not.

So increasing weight as quickly as possible is the best way then? Why not double the 5x5 weight increases then? Why not quadruple 5/3/1? Why not add two wheels every workout? At that rate you'll be squatting more than Kirk in a year. I'll give you a hint: 5 isn't a magic number. Having variance in how much you increase at a time can be tremendously useful at preventing stalls and maintaining progression. Equally so, there are high volume/high intensity workouts that can be tremendously useful.

You know the best time to lift like a maniac all the time? When you first start lifting. To take the 5x5 as an example, you start out squatting the bar for a total of 25 reps. This is to help you learn form and to keep you from stalling out too early. For some folks this is a lot, for others it's nothing. They could easily do 5x25 every single day and have no problems, it wouldn't be any harder than doing that many BW squats. If they did that, it would be 875 repetitions per week to practice form, vs 75.

At a certain point, the weight gets to be too much, and volume needs to be lowered. That point is different for everyone. For me, I had to cut back on deadlifting once I got over 315, it was taking it's toll on my back. I'm squatting 345 right now, and I could honestly be doing it 4 to 5 times a week without too much issue. I'm sure as the weight gets heavier that will change. I also imagine J hasn't reached the point where he'll need to cut back on volume yet. Given that he's a triathlete I believe he's fully capable of listening to his body's signals. As long as he's still making progression, the plan is fine.

The WHOLE point I'm trying to make is not to jump to 'zomg overtraining' or 'my plan is way better because I add moar weight' or whatever. There's so many plans out there because people respond better to certain things. Your's isn't the only way to do things.

Um, what you are saying plays into my point though. We are speaking about beginners. I am saying something like Starting Strength is the fastest way for a beginner who CAN add 5 lbs every workout to train. Of course when a person gets stronger there is a shift in volume vs. frequency at least, and likely in intensity as well. My opinion is that it is best to mix it once past the beginner stage i.e. why I have said I want to go with 5/3/1 BBB when I am ready. And I'm not saying its the ONLY way to do anything. I am saying it is the FASTEST way for a BEGINNER with the lifting capacity and recovery ability to dictate high frequency low volume training with linear weight increases per workout to get stronger.

ArroganceInStep

Um, what you are saying plays into my point though. We are speaking about beginners. I am saying something like Starting Strength is the fastest way for a beginner who CAN add 5 lbs every workout to train. Of course when a person gets stronger there is a shift in volume vs. frequency at least, and likely in intensity as well. My opinion is that it is best to mix it once past the beginner stage i.e. why I have said I want to go with 5/3/1 BBB when I am ready. And I'm not saying its the ONLY way to do anything. I am saying it is the FASTEST way for a BEGINNER with the lifting capacity and recovery ability to dictate high frequency low volume training with linear weight increases per workout to get stronger.

A big majority of that strength gain you're talking about is preexisting strength (or lifting capacity to use your word). If you take someone who's true 5RM max is 45lbs and put them on 5x5, they will improve at a much slower rate (obviously) than someone who's able to handle much heavier weight from the get-go. In fact, for that person, they may very well see faster progress with a program that has less frequent weight increases. Once again, the methods you're talking about aren't bad, they just aren't the only way to do things.

Determinednoob

Um, what you are saying plays into my point though. We are speaking about beginners. I am saying something like Starting Strength is the fastest way for a beginner who CAN add 5 lbs every workout to train. Of course when a person gets stronger there is a shift in volume vs. frequency at least, and likely in intensity as well. My opinion is that it is best to mix it once past the beginner stage i.e. why I have said I want to go with 5/3/1 BBB when I am ready. And I'm not saying its the ONLY way to do anything. I am saying it is the FASTEST way for a BEGINNER with the lifting capacity and recovery ability to dictate high frequency low volume training with linear weight increases per workout to get stronger.

A big majority of that strength gain you're talking about is preexisting strength (or lifting capacity to use your word). If you take someone who's true 5RM max is 45lbs and put them on 5x5, they will improve at a much slower rate (obviously) than someone who's able to handle much heavier weight from the get-go. In fact, for that person, they may very well see faster progress with a program that has less frequent weight increases. Once again, the methods you're talking about aren't bad, they just aren't the only way to do things.

Makes no sense. Please elaborate. And for the record SS is 3x5 squat bench oph, 5x3 power clean, 1x5 deadlift. I am talking about straight up beginners who are untrained. They get stronger faster adding 30 or 60lbs per month to work sets (minus stalling and reseting before someone acts like I think it can be done until they are benching 1000) vs adding 10 or 20 lbs per month.

Here are links to a couple SS training logs. Notice how they add 100+ lbs to work sets on squats in under 2 months and 50+ to work sets on bench.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=143963661

Starting stats (max weight I did on first workout of each exercise): Jan 28
Squat: 100 lbs
Bench: 95 lbs
Deadlift: 95 lbs
Press: 65 lbs
Power clean: 65lbs
Dips: Unweighted sets of 5
Chin-ups: Unweighted sets of 4-5

Current Max: April 12
Squat: 205lbs (x5x3)
Bench: 160 lbs (x5x3)
Deadlift: 215 lbs (x5)
Press: 102.5 lbs (x5x3)
Power clean: 125lbs
Dips: 3 Sets of 8 (+10lbs)
Chin-ups: 3 Sets of 8 (-20lbs, assisted)

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=139629253&page=1

First A Workout - 11/11/11

For each exercise, I found my starting weight by performing 5 reps with progressively heavier weight until the bar started slowing or I felt my form was slipping at all:

Squat

45x5
55x5
65x5
75x5

85x5
85x5
85x5

Bench Press

45x5
55x5
65x5
75x5
85x5
95x5

105x5
105x5
105x5

Like most people, I have much more experience benching than any of the other exercises, but I concentrated on proper form, especially pulling my shoulder blades together, racking and unracking with straight arms, and consistent bar path. Felt good.

Deadlift

95x5

115x5

Session 21 - A - 12/31/11

Last training session of the year-- made it a good one.

Squat

185x3x5

Felt heavy in a good way. Gassed after the third set.

Bench

160x3x5

Still feels pretty easy.

Deadlift

215x1x5

ArroganceInStep

Sigh

The point that I'm getting at...which I've said many, MANY, times, is that there's merit to other paradigms.

I hit 365 in my squat yesterday. If I were to start starting strength tomorrow, the weight at which the bar slows for me is about 275lbs (it's actually lower than that but I think I could push it and get reps out for speed up to 275). 2 months from now I'd have a fat 100lb increase on my weight too...and be 10 lbs over what I'm lifting right now. If you add 50 lbs to a lift in a month, 99.9999% of the time you could've lifted a higher weight when you first started.

Even for beginners, strict increases every session isn't always the right way to go. The reason I mentioned adding 90lbs a workout to each of your lifts was to highlight the point that such a plan would cause stalls and deloads out the a**. For some folks, even 5lbs might do that. Also some people respond better to playing with volume in addition to just weight. Some people, like the OP, respond well to a *kitten*-ton of hard work (he's a triathlete though, which means to some extent that desire to beat the crap out of yourself is in his blood I guess...or something...maybe tri's get lots of ladies?).

I'm not sure how else to say this that will make sense to you. SL or SS or any volume constant, workout to workout weight increase plans might have been fantastic for you. It might've been better than sliced bread and added eleventy billion pounds to every single one of your lifts, but that doesn't mean that that paradigm will work best for everyone. Some people respond better to other things. In the same way you shouldn't jump to 'ZOMG overtraining!!!1!1one' as a default for someone who wants to do a lot of full body stuff back to back, you also shouldn't immediately assume that a specific style will be best for everyone. Is it a good starting point? Sure, but it's not the only way to skin a cat (and before you say it, it's also not the fastest in all cases, deloads slow progress more than you're conceding).

Determinednoob

Sigh

The point that I'm getting at...which I've said many, MANY, times, is that there's merit to other paradigms.

I hit 365 in my squat yesterday. If I were to start starting strength tomorrow, the weight at which the bar slows for me is about 275lbs (it's actually lower than that but I think I could push it and get reps out for speed up to 275). 2 months from now I'd have a fat 100lb increase on my weight too...and be 10 lbs over what I'm lifting right now. If you add 50 lbs to a lift in a month, 99.9999% of the time you could've lifted a higher weight when you first started.

Even for beginners, strict increases every session isn't always the right way to go. The reason I mentioned adding 90lbs a workout to each of your lifts was to highlight the point that such a plan would cause stalls and deloads out the a**. For some folks, even 5lbs might do that. Also some people respond better to playing with volume in addition to just weight. Some people, like the OP, respond well to a *kitten*-ton of hard work (he's a triathlete though, which means to some extent that desire to beat the crap out of yourself is in his blood I guess...or something...maybe tri's get lots of ladies?).

I'm not sure how else to say this that will make sense to you. SL or SS or any volume constant, workout to workout weight increase plans might have been fantastic for you. It might've been better than sliced bread and added eleventy billion pounds to every single one of your lifts, but that doesn't mean that that paradigm will work best for everyone. Some people respond better to other things. In the same way you shouldn't jump to 'ZOMG overtraining!!!1!1one' as a default for someone who wants to do a lot of full body stuff back to back, you also shouldn't immediately assume that a specific style will be best for everyone. Is it a good starting point? Sure, but it's not the only way to skin a cat (and before you say it, it's also not the fastest in all cases, deloads slow progress more than you're conceding).

I am not sure why you are using yourself as an example when you clearly do not fall into the beginner classification. The gap between slowing bar speed and absolute 5rm for an untrainer person would be no where near the same as it is for someone like you squatting 300+ for work sets. No matter what you say a program that allows let's say even over 90% (i am pretty sure it is higher) of untrained beginners to add over 100lbs to work sets in 6 weeks is better than one that has them add 20-40 lbs in 8 weeks. And I never said ZOMG overtraining. I said it looked like a lot, it is more than most people do or require, but in the end the OP would need to read his own body for himself. Yes deloads slow progress, but they slow it much less than adding less than half as much weight as one could in a given time. And I am not saying someone should run SS until the end of time out to the point of microloading .5lbs to their deadlift every 3 weeks. Generally it is said the program is to be run until squats stall 2 or 3 times. After that someone can then move on to something like 5/3/1 and be far ahead of someone who started 5/3/1 from the beginning. All of this not mentioning the fact that squatting 3 times per week and the rest of the lifts 3 times per 2 weeks will have someone learn the lifts themselves a lot faster than performing all of them once per week.

erickirb

Sigh

The point that I'm getting at...which I've said many, MANY, times, is that there's merit to other paradigms.

I hit 365 in my squat yesterday. If I were to start starting strength tomorrow, the weight at which the bar slows for me is about 275lbs (it's actually lower than that but I think I could push it and get reps out for speed up to 275). 2 months from now I'd have a fat 100lb increase on my weight too...and be 10 lbs over what I'm lifting right now. If you add 50 lbs to a lift in a month, 99.9999% of the time you could've lifted a higher weight when you first started.

Even for beginners, strict increases every session isn't always the right way to go. The reason I mentioned adding 90lbs a workout to each of your lifts was to highlight the point that such a plan would cause stalls and deloads out the a**. For some folks, even 5lbs might do that. Also some people respond better to playing with volume in addition to just weight. Some people, like the OP, respond well to a *kitten*-ton of hard work (he's a triathlete though, which means to some extent that desire to beat the crap out of yourself is in his blood I guess...or something...maybe tri's get lots of ladies?).

I'm not sure how else to say this that will make sense to you. SL or SS or any volume constant, workout to workout weight increase plans might have been fantastic for you. It might've been better than sliced bread and added eleventy billion pounds to every single one of your lifts, but that doesn't mean that that paradigm will work best for everyone. Some people respond better to other things. In the same way you shouldn't jump to 'ZOMG overtraining!!!1!1one' as a default for someone who wants to do a lot of full body stuff back to back, you also shouldn't immediately assume that a specific style will be best for everyone. Is it a good starting point? Sure, but it's not the only way to skin a cat (and before you say it, it's also not the fastest in all cases, deloads slow progress more than you're conceding).

I am not sure why you are using yourself as an example when you clearly do not fall into the beginner classification. The gap between slowing bar speed and absolute 5rm for an untrainer person would be no where near the same as it is for someone like you squatting 300+ for work sets. No matter what you say a program that allows let's say even over 90% (i am pretty sure it is higher) of untrained beginners to add over 100lbs to work sets in 6 weeks is better than one that has them add 20-40 lbs in 8 weeks. And I never said ZOMG overtraining. I said it looked like a lot, it is more than most people do or require, but in the end the OP would need to read his own body for himself. Yes deloads slow progress, but they slow it much less than adding less than half as much weight as one could in a given time. And I am not saying someone should run SS until the end of time out to the point of microloading .5lbs to their deadlift every 3 weeks. Generally it is said the program is to be run until squats stall 2 or 3 times. After that someone can then move on to something like 5/3/1 and be far ahead of someone who started 5/3/1 from the beginning. All of this not mentioning the fact that squatting 3 times per week and the rest of the lifts 3 times per 2 weeks will have someone learn the lifts themselves a lot faster than performing all of them once per week.

All he is trying to day is that of that 100+ lbs, even the beginner most likely would be able to lift 50 or so of those from day one, so the real progression is not 100lbs, it only looks like that on paper because the program forces you to start with a lower weight than you can really lift.

If you started by testing max and took a % of that for say 5/3/1, after 6 months you may be at the same place it is just that you started so low to begin with on this program. So it appears your progression was larger, but that is not a fair comparison as it was taken from a false base (much lower than you could really lift vs. what you can lift).

Determinednoob

All he is trying to day is that of that 100+ lbs, even the beginner most likely would be able to lift 50 or so of those from day one, so the real progression is not 100lbs, it only looks like that on paper because the program forces you to start with a lower weight than you can really lift.

If you started by testing max and took a % of that for say 5/3/1, after 6 months you may be at the same place it is just that you started so low to begin with on this program. So it appears your progression was larger, but that is not a fair comparison as it was taken from a false base (much lower than you could really lift vs. what you can lift).

I understand that but I just don't think it is THAT much lower. I have seen people who ran the program that ended up squatting ~250x3x5 after 3-4 months. That just aint happenin on 5/3/1 from the start. These are of course men between 16-35 or so eating a ton of food and sleeping a lot. The book itself mentions people falling outside that demographic progressing slower. And I am not saying it is the end all be all, just that it is a fast way for untrained people to get a lot stronger fast if that is their #1 goal. Hell the dude for Babylovers SS says regular SS is TOO SLOW lol. I am not even syaing is is what I would run if I were starting from scratch. I myself would go with a slightly modified version of the one linked below which is slower for pure strength.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=147447933

ArroganceInStep

I understand that but I just don't think it is THAT much lower. I have seen people who ran the program that ended up squatting ~250x3x5 after 3-4 months. That just aint happenin on 5/3/1 from the start. These are of course men between 16-35 or so eating a ton of food and sleeping a lot. The book itself mentions people falling outside that demographic progressing slower. And I am not saying it is the end all be all, just that it is a fast way for untrained people to get a lot stronger fast if that is their #1 goal. Hell the dude for Babylovers SS says regular SS is TOO SLOW lol. I am not even syaing is is what I would run if I were starting from scratch. I myself would go with a slightly modified version of the one linked below which is slower for pure strength.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=147447933

You have made valid points, but your unwillingness to even consider other options is tremendously frustrating. I'm not going to try to debate this any further.

Determinednoob

I understand that but I just don't think it is THAT much lower. I have seen people who ran the program that ended up squatting ~250x3x5 after 3-4 months. That just aint happenin on 5/3/1 from the start. These are of course men between 16-35 or so eating a ton of food and sleeping a lot. The book itself mentions people falling outside that demographic progressing slower. And I am not saying it is the end all be all, just that it is a fast way for untrained people to get a lot stronger fast if that is their #1 goal. Hell the dude for Babylovers SS says regular SS is TOO SLOW lol. I am not even syaing is is what I would run if I were starting from scratch. I myself would go with a slightly modified version of the one linked below which is slower for pure strength.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=147447933

You have made valid points, but your unwillingness to even consider other options is tremendously frustrating. I'm not going to try to debate this any further.

Ditto brah

yecatsml

bump for further reading.