heavy lifting and over training
Replies
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Got to step out and run some errands, but I want to say, IMO, this is a quality thread. Even the folks I'm disagreeing with, I'm really liking their information and counter points. Well argued stuff. A lot to consider in here. I wish more F&E threads would be like this.0
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I like a lot of what he has to say. The fact that you posted it carries some weight, but who is he? Creditable?0 -
Ease back of the throttle there, Pocahontas. Not only did you just roll off a list of people that participate in a sport that is well documented to be rife with steroids, you are also talking about specialists. The OP has a photo of what I assume is him running as his avatar. Was running, or any cardio part of the Olympic lifters programs? Did they have any interests outside of their chosen competition?
Since MFP F&E is more a general fitness type thread, I think most of us are assuming that he's interested in a general bigger, stronger, faster sort of thing. He hasn't indicated so far that he's looking to become a roided out competition level powerlifter. If he does, we'll change our advice. I'll bow out of the conversation entirely because I have no first hand knowledge. But if he's a guy with a day job and family concerns that wants to spend a reasonable amount of time getting bigger and stronger and better looking with his shirt off, I've got some time on that and might have one or two ideas to help.
And I don't think anybody is really saying he should squeeze down to 3 exercises. We aren't so much much throwing SL or SS in his face as we're saying full body on back to back days 2x a week is usually not a good idea for someone not on the juice.
A fair counter, but at both the high school and collegiate level you do have guys running the same drills that aren't on gear. A standard paradigm for collegiate atheletes (James Steel is the person who I heard talking about it directly) is to have their heaviest day being the day after game day. This is an ivy league school without all the pulls of scholarship money and such, and they have their heaviest lifting day immediately following what should have been an intense full body workout. UPenn has linemen that aren't juicing, and I guarantee you their clean, dead, press, and squat work is hitting all the same stuff they blasted in the game the day before. Is his workout one that I would personally do? No, I don't like it for myself and probably wouldn't get as much progress out of it. However, assuming he's able to monitor himself for safety, who are you to determine the program is "WAY TOO MUCH"?0 -
I like a lot of what he has to say. The fact that you posted it carries some weight, but who is he? Creditable?
Layne Norton, pro bodybuilder and has a PhD in Nutritional Sciences
http://www.biolayne.com/0 -
Just one example, but a lot of research kinda works around the same theory (which makes sense):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9000155
The research revolves around neurotransmitter depletion as the cause under heavy loads, which does make perfect sense.
Also the affect of ammonia build up is a contributory factor.
Yes, but isn't this a study on the more immediate effects, not the effects following a full night's sleep?0 -
Yes, initially I asked about the efficiency of my routine. And you can take that literally as you want, and split hairs as finely as you want.
But let's take a step back and look at the big picture here...
Say I'm losing 10% of my potential gains due to over training.
Say the average person would be really lucky to put on 1lb of lean muscle per month (reasonable number from what I've read)
Say I do bulk/cut cycles for 6 months - late fall through the winter and into early spring (not at all uncommon)
6 months of bulk/cut means, for the sake of simplicity, 3 months of bulking.
3 months of bulking means, optimally, 3lbs of lean muscle
My over training reduces that to 2.7lbs of lean muscle.
That's negligible to me. Sure, that can make a big difference to someone who is competing, but not to me. I'd happily trade a quarter of a pound over the course of my winter lifting for a routine I feel good doing and enjoy on a day to day basis.
Am I missing something here? Or are we really getting all worked up over .25lbs under optimal conditions?
Not based on research or studies, but based on my understanding I think the 10% reduction would be to the amount you lift (progression loss), I think it will have a larger impact on muscle growth as they typically grow during rest, if you work them the next day they may not be repaired, so when you work them again you then only have 1 day off prior to working again, by the time the end of the week 4 days working the same muscle, it may need more than the weekend to rebuild to where they were prior to the beginning of the week.
If they didn't get back to where they were, then you lift the next Monday, you would just do more and more damage and will not reap the growth or strength gains that you would have if the muscles were fully repaired.
Is it safe then to use my progression (or lack there of) as a guage? i.e. As long as I'm seeing reasonable progress, keep going (kind of the if it ain't broke don't fix it approach), and if I'm not progressing to change things up?
This way you will know if it is working or not.
That doesn't mean it is the most optimal routine, as progression may, not necessary though, be faster with another program and a plateau later, but you wouldn't know either way.
And that gets back to my initial question about efficiency. I guess the thing I'm having the hardest time with is how does anyone know what is/will be most efficient. You all have experience with your programs/routines, and that's great. Does that guarantee it's best for me, or even better than what I'm currently doing? I dunno. Seems really hard to say without knowing the ins and outs of everyone's program over the long term, not to mention their goals, training constraints, etc.
For example... I'm basically doing a 6 week bulk followed by a 6 week cut, then a 12 week bulk and a 12 week cut. Based on the relatively short cycles, does that change the conversation? I couldn't bulk for 5-6 months straight (for a few reasons that I won't get into here) even if it meant bigger gains, so I'm on shorter cycles.0 -
I like a lot of what he has to say. The fact that you posted it carries some weight, but who is he? Creditable?
Layne Norton, pro bodybuilder and has a PhD in Nutritional Sciences
http://www.biolayne.com/
Cool, thanks.0 -
Ease back of the throttle there, Pocahontas. Not only did you just roll off a list of people that participate in a sport that is well documented to be rife with steroids, you are also talking about specialists. The OP has a photo of what I assume is him running as his avatar. Was running, or any cardio part of the Olympic lifters programs? Did they have any interests outside of their chosen competition?
Since MFP F&E is more a general fitness type thread, I think most of us are assuming that he's interested in a general bigger, stronger, faster sort of thing. He hasn't indicated so far that he's looking to become a roided out competition level powerlifter. If he does, we'll change our advice. I'll bow out of the conversation entirely because I have no first hand knowledge. But if he's a guy with a day job and family concerns that wants to spend a reasonable amount of time getting bigger and stronger and better looking with his shirt off, I've got some time on that and might have one or two ideas to help.
And I don't think anybody is really saying he should squeeze down to 3 exercises. We aren't so much much throwing SL or SS in his face as we're saying full body on back to back days 2x a week is usually not a good idea for someone not on the juice.
A fair counter, but at both the high school and collegiate level you do have guys running the same drills that aren't on gear. A standard paradigm for collegiate atheletes (James Steel is the person who I heard talking about it directly) is to have their heaviest day being the day after game day. This is an ivy league school without all the pulls of scholarship money and such, and they have their heaviest lifting day immediately following what should have been an intense full body workout. UPenn has linemen that aren't juicing, and I guarantee you their clean, dead, press, and squat work is hitting all the same stuff they blasted in the game the day before. Is his workout one that I would personally do? No, I don't like it for myself and probably wouldn't get as much progress out of it. However, assuming he's able to monitor himself for safety, who are you to determine the program is "WAY TOO MUCH"?
You're talking about dudes with the highest hormone levels\best recovery ability of their lives though. Us older men can't recover at the same rate as people that young.0 -
Just one example, but a lot of research kinda works around the same theory (which makes sense):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9000155
The research revolves around neurotransmitter depletion as the cause under heavy loads, which does make perfect sense.
Also the affect of ammonia build up is a contributory factor.
Yes, but isn't this a study on the more immediate effects, not the effects following a full night's sleep?
That depends on whether your body can replenish 5-HT within 24 hours completely - not to mention obvious muscle fibre tear/repair into the bargain.
Obviously if you're training at a high intensity level, there is a possibility that 5-HT is not fully replenished (amongst other neurotransmitters) by the time you get to your next workout - at which point you deplete those levels even more, and it's eventually a downward spiral.
Studies however have been shown to prove that BCAA supplementation is important as it does improve recovery (which is a bit of a no-brainer). Tryptophan supplementation has also been researched as it is the precursor to 5-HT.
I do reckon that depletion does play a contributory effect when we're talking about pushing the envelope. If we're talking about general health and fitness? Not so much.
Nevertheless, I thought I would bring it up as a contributory factor when we're talking about overtraining, which it is.0 -
Since MFP F&E is more a general fitness type thread, I think most of us are assuming that he's interested in a general bigger, stronger, faster sort of thing. He hasn't indicated so far that he's looking to become a roided out competition level powerlifter. If he does, we'll change our advice. I'll bow out of the conversation entirely because I have no first hand knowledge. But if he's a guy with a day job and family concerns that wants to spend a reasonable amount of time getting bigger and stronger and better looking with his shirt off, I've got some time on that and might have one or two ideas to help.
Fair assumptions.
I'm an endurance athlete (triathlete) who is also a regular guy with a job, kids, etc. Strength to weight ratio is always a priority for me, but like everyone I want to look good too, so some shape/definition is certainly a goal as well.
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You're talking about dudes with the highest hormone levels\best recovery ability of their lives though. Us older men can't recover at the same rate as people that young.
I'm 27 and played sports in college. I can't do what I did back then even now, but I am personally able to handle back to back workouts. I'm sure that'll change as I age, which is why I think it's most important to pay attention to your body and do what you enjoy.
A fair point. I really hope they do more research on total recovery times. I think that would be very useful.That depends on whether your body can replenish 5-HT within 24 hours completely - not to mention obvious muscle fibre tear/repair into the bargain.
Obviously if you're training at a high intensity level, there is a possibility that 5-HT is not fully replenished (amongst other neurotransmitters) by the time you get to your next workout - at which point you deplete those levels even more, and it's eventually a downward spiral.
Studies however have been shown to prove that BCAA supplementation is important as it does improve recovery (which is a bit of a no-brainer). Tryptophan supplementation has also been researched as it is the precursor to 5-HT.
I do reckon that depletion does play a contributory effect when we're talking about pushing the envelope. If we're talking about general health and fitness? Not so much.
Nevertheless, I thought I would bring it up as a contributory factor when we're talking about overtraining, which it is.0 -
Just one example, but a lot of research kinda works around the same theory (which makes sense):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9000155
The research revolves around neurotransmitter depletion as the cause under heavy loads, which does make perfect sense.
Also the affect of ammonia build up is a contributory factor.
Yes, but isn't this a study on the more immediate effects, not the effects following a full night's sleep?
That depends on whether your body can replenish 5-HT within 24 hours completely - not to mention obvious muscle fibre tear/repair into the bargain.
Obviously if you're training at a high intensity level, there is a possibility that 5-HT is not fully replenished (amongst other neurotransmitters) by the time you get to your next workout - at which point you deplete those levels even more, and it's eventually a downward spiral.
Studies however have been shown to prove that BCAA supplementation is important as it does improve recovery (which is a bit of a no-brainer). Tryptophan supplementation has also been researched as it is the precursor to 5-HT.
I do reckon that depletion does play a contributory effect when we're talking about pushing the envelope. If we're talking about general health and fitness? Not so much.
Nevertheless, I thought I would bring it up as a contributory factor when we're talking about overtraining, which it is.
Also... There is the effect of adrenal fatigue which is much longer term than just neurotransmitters.
There is plenty of evidence that does indicate that overtraining in itself can cause CNS impairment due to neurotransmitter depletion - there is also a fair bit about the hormonal effects of overtraining (read up adrenal fatigue) which can be just as significant.
If you've got time to read as a quick example:
http://www.cnelm.com/NutritionPractitioner/Issues/Issue_11_1/Articles/3 Overtrainingformatted4_IC_ML3.pdf
Add pdf at the end if you can't see it...
This does scientifically make sense.0 -
Right this is one of the intermmediate routines I mentioned
No it's not. Jim himself wrote in his own book that he trains beginners with it. It's very simple and preaches the same basic principles about form and erring on the side of light with weight selection that Rippletoe and the other SL dude preach. I've used 5/3/1 for a long time and there's no reason that a beginner can't use 5/3/1; it's just that simple and user-friendly. Getting into something like Conjugate or Sheiko is debatable for a beginner.
RE Recovery: You have to judge yourself on the recovery. A four lifting session week is commonplace but you do need to be aware of how much cardio you're doing. If you're feeling well then keep it going. Common signs of over-training or exhaustion, irritability, trouble sleeping, problems with appetite, just to name a few. When those warning signs start popping up, then take a de-load or possibly even a total break for a couple days.0 -
That depends on whether your body can replenish 5-HT within 24 hours completely - not to mention obvious muscle fibre tear/repair into the bargain.
Obviously if you're training at a high intensity level, there is a possibility that 5-HT is not fully replenished (amongst other neurotransmitters) by the time you get to your next workout - at which point you deplete those levels even more, and it's eventually a downward spiral.
Studies however have been shown to prove that BCAA supplementation is important as it does improve recovery (which is a bit of a no-brainer). Tryptophan supplementation has also been researched as it is the precursor to 5-HT.
I do reckon that depletion does play a contributory effect when we're talking about pushing the envelope. If we're talking about general health and fitness? Not so much.
Nevertheless, I thought I would bring it up as a contributory factor when we're talking about overtraining, which it is.
Also... There is the effect of adrenal fatigue which is much longer term than just neurotransmitters.
There is plenty of evidence that does indicate that overtraining in itself can cause CNS impairment due to neurotransmitter depletion - there is also a fair bit about the hormonal effects of overtraining (read up adrenal fatigue) which can be just as significant.
If you've got time to read as a quick example:
http://www.cnelm.com/NutritionPractitioner/Issues/Issue_11_1/Articles/3 Overtrainingformatted4_IC_ML3.pdf
Add pdf at the end if you can't see it...
This does scientifically make sense.
[/quote]
Quite a good read, but to be fair he didn't ask the rugger to change his workout
. I think there's a lot of good information in there for someone who is fearful of overtraining though.
qftRE Recovery: You have to judge yourself on the recovery. A four lifting session week is commonplace but you do need to be aware of how much cardio you're doing. If you're feeling well then keep it going. Common signs of over-training or exhaustion, irritability, trouble sleeping, problems with appetite, just to name a few. When those warning signs start popping up, then take a de-load or possibly even a total break for a couple days.0 -
Back when I lifted heavy, I made my best gains on a 5-day/week body-part split. Not more than an hour in the weight room and lots of super setting and training techniques.
Listen to your body. If you aren't seeing progress, you are overtraining. As you know, there is a lot of science that goes into training; why rebel against what works in the weight room?
Anyway, it doesn't hurt to try something new; usually the body likes that. I would give a few different routines a try just to see what happens. By giving your muscles 48 of rest and working other body parts in between, your workouts will be more effective to gain strength and mass. You might be happily surprised.0 -
qftRE Recovery: You have to judge yourself on the recovery. A four lifting session week is commonplace but you do need to be aware of how much cardio you're doing. If you're feeling well then keep it going. Common signs of over-training or exhaustion, irritability, trouble sleeping, problems with appetite, just to name a few. When those warning signs start popping up, then take a de-load or possibly even a total break for a couple days.
The other piece of this is your own personal stress. Marriage, kids, work, mom, dad, friends all can add varying levels of stress to your life which will wear you down very badly. I just finished my divorce a few weeks ago and having the energy AND focus to hit the weights four days a week was really tough.0 -
Right this is one of the intermmediate routines I mentioned
No it's not. Jim himself wrote in his own book that he trains beginners with it. It's very simple and preaches the same basic principles about form and erring on the side of light with weight selection that Rippletoe and the other SL dude preach. I've used 5/3/1 for a long time and there's no reason that a beginner can't use 5/3/1; it's just that simple and user-friendly. Getting into something like Conjugate or Sheiko is debatable for a beginner.
RE Recovery: You have to judge yourself on the recovery. A four lifting session week is commonplace but you do need to be aware of how much cardio you're doing. If you're feeling well then keep it going. Common signs of over-training or exhaustion, irritability, trouble sleeping, problems with appetite, just to name a few. When those warning signs start popping up, then take a de-load or possibly even a total break for a couple days.
I guess it depends on template etc but most of what i have heard\read is that it progresses in weight monthly vs per workout which is much slower than a beginner should be progressing. If there is a version with per workout progression, then I would consider that a beginner version.0 -
I dont know about you, but this routine would have me in a wheel chair in less than 2 weeks. I couldn't image having deadlifts and squats on days right next to each other. And then twice a week? Wow you're superman.
Squats and deads are great full body exercises but they take a huge toll on your back and core. I do both only once a week and they're seperated by 3 full days. When I do these lifts I go so heavy (90% 1RM for 5 sets) that I couldnt possibly do them again the next day... not even the rest of the week!0 -
I dont know about you, but this routine would have me in a wheel chair in less than 2 weeks. I couldn't image having deadlifts and squats on days right next to each other. And then twice a week? Wow you're superman.
Squats and deads are great full body exercises but they take a huge toll on your back and core. I do both only once a week and they're seperated by 3 full days. When I do these lifts I go so heavy (90% 1RM for 5 sets) that I couldnt possibly do them again the next day... not even the rest of the week!
Well it depends on training level\weight you can lift and recovery ability. I squat 3 times per week and deadlift 3 times per 2 weeks. I do squats and deadlifts on the same day. Within the same 45 minutes. But, I am not moving a huge amount of weight, so I can manage it.0 -
I think most people grossly over training. In my opinion there is no requirement to be in the gym 4-5 days as many people do. Its counter productive. People blindly follow some stupid routine (prescribed by the cover model who is likely injecting steroids) that they have read in a magazine. I think people would be best thinking about things logically before jumping into a routine that takes over your life and eventually leaves you over trained.
years ago I would spend 2 hours a time in the gym 4 days a week, without recording progress and trying to feel the 'pump' (which I thought was important at the time).
A few years back I read alot of the HIT stuff out there (by Doug Mcguff and Mike Mentzer) and changed the way I thought about productive exercise completely.
I've been doing a push/pull split with a workout A and B. So only working out twice a week. I do 2 warm up sets ramping the weight and 1 set to failure, carefully looking after my form and recording number of reps achieved and weight used.
I can honestly say I've made more gains in the last year using this method than I did in 7 years doing stupid high volume routines.
I think in conclusion you need to keep an eye on the volume, include the big lifts (injuries permitting) and make sure you are monitoring and actively looking at progression (reps or weight increase). i found that I could actually do very little exercise and still make progress as long as my diet was good and I had plenty of rest0
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