Why do people get so provoked by vegans?

beckajw

Another way of thinking about it:

Many people boycott Nestle products because they disagree with their policy of promoting infant formula over breast feeding in countries with poor sanitation. A lot of those people boycotting eat meat.

If someone does that, it doesn't mean they think they're better than you.

Except the people boycotting Nestle never called me a murderer.

Understand??

perfectingpatti

Well, well, I know you. I heard about your problem. Unbelievable!!!
I appreciate your advice, and it is, in fact the same advice VoV and others have given me. In the long run, you are probably right, but I have a different goal. (Message me if interested.)
Yes, you can attest that I am obnoxious, but as Popeye said, " Iam what Iam."

heyshell79

I find the same thing myself, I'm a 37 year vegetarian and I never preach my diet, in fact I rarely mention it and I've often questioned it, but many people are quick to assume that I have coped an attitude when in fact they have.

perfectingpatti

well i believe verging on vegan is his wife. so i guess they balance each other out.

Yup. That's why I gave him the wink at the end.

buildingdreams

Thank you for your post. I too have read most of those studies. I went meat, dairy and bread free Feb 2012 and do not regret it. My weightloss is 25lb right now. I'm now jogging for the first time in my life( always hated it ) and am up to 1.25 miles per day. I follow Dr. Fuhrmans Eat to live lifestyle. Thank you

_VoV

I don't think vegans think they are better. But, I think there is a mental process they go through to make their decisions that I don't think 99% of the rest of America consider at all. Most people just do what they were taught without question. So, that makes it kind of weird for a vegan because they know they are talking to someone that has not questioned their values or made choices in a thoughful and more purposeful way.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that one can very easily engage in contemplative self-reflection about this issue - a process which you seem to describe as necessarily leading to veganism - yet instead reach the perfectly reasonable opposite conclusion that eating meat and using animal products is acceptable. That kind of blanket assumption that a non-vegan must be that way because they haven't thought about it as "deeply" as you is exactly the kind of thing that turns people off, and can bring out the venom from even the most level-headed of meat-eaters.

I am not trying to be facetious, but I would like to hear how that contemplative, self-reflective alternate conclusion might sound like. I have an easy time seeing my own conclusion, but I have a difficult time seeing an opposite conclusion about meat-eating which factors in animal welfare.

This is the first time I've commented on one of these "food fight" threads, so let me know if I'm doing it wrong...

This is something I've thought about a lot. It hasn't led me to be a vegan. I like to know where my food comes from, so I tend to buy from local, humane farms. I think that how we treat animals is very important. Animals have always been a big part of human life. Those who believe in animal rights would like that to not be the case. Ideally, I would like to raise my own animals and eat them at the appropriate and natural times. I also like to wear wool and leather. Both can be humanely produced. Conventional cotton can be pretty bad for the environment. Hemp is hard to find. A lot of synthetic materials are made from fossil fuels.

Believing in animal welfare isn't actually incompatible with eating meat. Overpopulation of prey species can lead to starvation. That makes hunting humane. It's the belief in "animal rights" that is incompatible with eating meat. If we really believed in animal rights, we would have to get rid of all domesticated animals. We would literally have to eliminate them. Some of them (like cats) would likely thrive on their own, but at what damage to local ecosystems? Turning them loose wouldn't be totally ethical, so we have to kill them all right? Believing in "animal rights" is incompatible with believing in animal welfare. My belief in animal welfare leads me to want to see them cared for and protected and, yes, sometimes eaten.

I missed this posting yesterday, but I wanted to comment.

I agree that sourcing your food and textiles from local farms or distant ones which are known to be responsible is a very good thing to do. My cats are obligate carnivores who have no choice but to eat meat, so I share your sourcing concerns. Believe me, that it's not easy, and I rarely feel like my consumer decisions are a total win.

On the matter of textiles, I am frequently forced into compromises I hate making. I try buying vegan clothes made from sustainable, renewable materials whose production and harvesting don't trash the environment and the people who live and work in the communities where those materials come from. Lately, I've started to think that buying used clothing or clothes swapping is even better. I'm still a work in progress, for sure.

On the matter of keeping pets, or as many animal rights people would say 'sharing a home with companion animals', I know many vegans who are heavily involved in animal rescue. They definitely are trying very hard to improve animal welfare, and believe that the animals which have been bred to be domesticated and dependent upon humans do not deserve to be dropped off somewhere to fend for themselves.

In my version of the ideal world, there would be a lengthy moratorium on the breeding of dogs, cats and other species of animals people deem pet-worthy. During that time, I would hope that all the unwanted animals would find homes. After that, I would hope that breeding would not exceed demand, and that the majority of animals would be spayed or neutered. Of course, that's a fantasy, so there are real world issues to be worked on with millions of individual animals who need a helping hand.

So, in my opinion, 'animal rights' and 'animal welfare' can be compatible.

heliumheels

Just read this article from NPR and thought it would be worth the read:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/13.7/2012/08/30/160117028/do-vegetarians-and-vegans-think-they-are-better-than-everyone-else?utm_source=NPR&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=20120830

redraidergirl2009

A vegan diet is deficient in B vitamins without supplementation. Also, you are missing the very real benefits of whey protein with such a restrictive diet. Furthermore, meat is very filling -- so it is easier to eat less with a high-protein diet (which is considerably more difficult on a vegan diet).

I disagree. I have not yet encountered a day I was low on protein. Not sure why anyone would need a high protein diet but it is possible on a vegan diet.

Vegan diet is deficient in B vitamins, missing benefits of whey protein, and generally less filling than a diet with a higher proportion of meat.

I get my b vitamins from fortified sources. I also do not see any benefits of whey to my diet and nor have I had an issue keeping myself full. Thanks for your concern though.

kmbrooks15

Full disclosure: I didn't read your whole post, as it is rather long.

I don't feel provoked by vegans, however I do get highly annoyed by ANYONE who preaches to me about their way as being the only path. This goes for diet (vegan, paleo, no carb, low carb) or religion and everything in between. People getting all preachy is just plain obnoxious and I have no patience for them online or in real life.

I don't have a label for how I eat. I eat some meat. I eat lots of vegetables and fruit. I try to be a "vegetarian until dinnertime," limiting meat consumption, if at all, to one meal a day. I try to avoid foods made by industrial giants, including freaky fake "meats" and anything made by companies such as ConAgra, Morningstar Farms (aka Kellogs), etc. I am good with what I eat and am happy for anyone else who finds a diet that fits their lifestyle.

^^This. I am not annoyed by people who choose to be vegan or vegetarian. It's a personal choice, and if you're happy with it, that's great. The problem I have is the vegans I sometimes run across (and I don't think you're one of them) who insist their way of eating is the only way. We have a wide variety of choices for foods, and I think each person has to find what works for them. I'm not going to push you to eat meat because you've chosen a way that works for you, and it's none of my business anyway. Vegans should extend the same courtesy (and many do, it's just those occasional radicals who push and push and actually insult you if you don't see it their way). Your post makes it clear that you view being vegan as your personal choice and that if others choose differently, it's their business. I don't have a problem with that kind of vegan!

My question for vegans is how you handle eating out and such. There aren't many vegan choices for restaurants out there, and I can't imagine how I'd pull it off. I eat dinner at church on Wednesday nights because of my schedule, and I have no control over the menu, so eating vegan there would be impossible. I do admire the discipline of vegans...I'm not sure I could do it!

KinzieElise

I didn't really read most of the answers to the original question nor the conversations resulting from that but I wanted to answer the question about why I PERSONALLY am sometimes provoked by vegans. I was raised on a ranch and we raised various kinds of livestock and named most of them. We still sold them and took them to the butcher for our freezers. Sometimes you had an animal that you didn't want to sell because it had basically become your pet as a 4-H project. You still did it and then you did it again the next year. It was hard but you eventually got over it, even if you remembered the animal with fondness. (Like my first state fair lamb, his name was Fella and he was an absolute sweetheart.) So, when vegans tell me that I don't care about animals simply because I eat meat and use animal byproducts it kind of pisses me off. I know how the world works and I realize that even if humans didn't exist to eat meat those animals would STILL be eaten by other predators or they would die of starvation from overpopulation. Of course, I really don't see anything wrong with the decision to be a vegan, I just wish that some of them wouldn't tell me that the way I live is wrong.

bcattoes

I don't think people are provoked by veganism. I think people are provoked by others who say "my diet is the only way."

Many people seem provoked by anyone that doesn't live like them. On MFP that can mean eating or exercising. I've seen attacks on people for eating vegan or vegetarian, Paleo, Atkins or other low carb, for eating carbs, for not lifting heavy, for doing cardio, yadda, yadda, yadda.

I don't really understand why anyone gets so passionate about how a stranger eats or exercises. I can actually understand those who are vegan for ethical reasons best since they actually have some perceived injustice to right. Though I fail to understand when they seem think berating someone for not thinking like them will make them change.

beckajw

I don't think people are provoked by veganism. I think people are provoked by others who say "my diet is the only way."

Many people seem provoked by anyone that doesn't live like them. On MFP that can mean eating or exercising. I've seen attacks on people for eating vegan or vegetarian, Paleo, Atkins or other low carb, for eating carbs, for not lifting heavy, for doing cardio, yadda, yadda, yadda.

I don't really understand why anyone gets so passionate about how a stranger eats or exercises. I can actually understand those who are vegan for ethical reasons best since they actually have some perceived injustice to right. Though I fail to understand when they seem think berating someone for not thinking like them will make them change.

I completely agree with you.

Glasgow_Vegan

"In answering my question in the negative, Friedrich and Patrick-Goudreau both point to their own meat-eating past. But they do strongly exhort others, through "should"-type speech, to choose certain diets over others: diets that don't involve doing violent harm to animals. I understand this. Both work towards a more compassionate world for animals; their goals are just not compatible with an all-embracing "live and let live" approach, as if one set of food choices were just as okay as another.

It's clear to me that Friedrich and Patrick-Goudreau believe not that they are better people than meat-eaters, but instead that their dietary practices are better for animals, and for our world as a whole, than the habits of meat-eaters. Why do many people so readily confuse these two things?"

This!

Glasgow_Vegan

My question for vegans is how you handle eating out and such. There aren't many vegan choices for restaurants out there, and I can't imagine how I'd pull it off. I eat dinner at church on Wednesday nights because of my schedule, and I have no control over the menu, so eating vegan there would be impossible. I do admire the discipline of vegans...I'm not sure I could do it!

doesn't contain egg). I'm not picky because I don't want to make things more difficult for other people. I'm lucky that in the UK we
If I eat at a non-vegan restaurant I just have salad and vegetable dishes, sometimes with fries. Or bruschetta or pasta (if the latter have lots of restaurants that only sell vegan food. Loads that have vegetarian and vegan options too. Everyone seems to at least know a vegan here.

This is the menu for one of the vegan restaurants. It doesn't even advertise itself as being vegan and gets a lot of meat eating customers:

http://www.cca-glasgow.com/assets/uploads/doc/saramago_menu.pdf

beckajw

"In answering my question in the negative, Friedrich and Patrick-Goudreau both point to their own meat-eating past. But they do strongly exhort others, through "should"-type speech, to choose certain diets over others: diets that don't involve doing violent harm to animals. I understand this. Both work towards a more compassionate world for animals; their goals are just not compatible with an all-embracing "live and let live" approach, as if one set of food choices were just as okay as another.

It's clear to me that Friedrich and Patrick-Goudreau believe not that they are better people than meat-eaters, but instead that their dietary practices are better for animals, and for our world as a whole, than the habits of meat-eaters. Why do many people so readily confuse these two things?"

This!

There is no confusion. When you say, "what I do is better for our world as a whole", you are saying "I'm better than you."

bcattoes

"In answering my question in the negative, Friedrich and Patrick-Goudreau both point to their own meat-eating past. But they do strongly exhort others, through "should"-type speech, to choose certain diets over others: diets that don't involve doing violent harm to animals. I understand this. Both work towards a more compassionate world for animals; their goals are just not compatible with an all-embracing "live and let live" approach, as if one set of food choices were just as okay as another.

It's clear to me that Friedrich and Patrick-Goudreau believe not that they are better people than meat-eaters, but instead that their dietary practices are better for animals, and for our world as a whole, than the habits of meat-eaters. Why do many people so readily confuse these two things?"

This!

There is no confusion. When you say, "what I do is better for our world as a whole", you are saying "I'm better than you."

That makes no sense.

redraidergirl2009

I am curious as to how many people posting here actually have met a vegan they didn't like and aren't just hating a stereotype when they've never met a vegan or only met. Like two or three.

taylor5877

I am curious as to how many people posting here actually have met a vegan they didn't like and aren't just hating a stereotype when they've never met a vegan or only met. Like two or three.

and I'm curious to how this thread did any good to NOT perpetuate the stereotype omnivores have for vegans and vice versa.

Neither side can make judgemental statements and not think those statements will be viewed as judgements by the other side.

_VoV

"In answering my question in the negative, Friedrich and Patrick-Goudreau both point to their own meat-eating past. But they do strongly exhort others, through "should"-type speech, to choose certain diets over others: diets that don't involve doing violent harm to animals. I understand this. Both work towards a more compassionate world for animals; their goals are just not compatible with an all-embracing "live and let live" approach, as if one set of food choices were just as okay as another.

It's clear to me that Friedrich and Patrick-Goudreau believe not that they are better people than meat-eaters, but instead that their dietary practices are better for animals, and for our world as a whole, than the habits of meat-eaters. Why do many people so readily confuse these two things?"

This!

There is no confusion. When you say, "what I do is better for our world as a whole", you are saying "I'm better than you."

Sometimes it's best to read literally, rather than interpretively. I think this is one of those times.

Many thoughts I have about veganism are philosophical and idealistic, and I don't apply them to individuals.

Glasgow_Vegan

"In answering my question in the negative, Friedrich and Patrick-Goudreau both point to their own meat-eating past. But they do strongly exhort others, through "should"-type speech, to choose certain diets over others: diets that don't involve doing violent harm to animals. I understand this. Both work towards a more compassionate world for animals; their goals are just not compatible with an all-embracing "live and let live" approach, as if one set of food choices were just as okay as another.

It's clear to me that Friedrich and Patrick-Goudreau believe not that they are better people than meat-eaters, but instead that their dietary practices are better for animals, and for our world as a whole, than the habits of meat-eaters. Why do many people so readily confuse these two things?"

This!

There is no confusion. When you say, "what I do is better for our world as a whole", you are saying "I'm better than you."

Well by your logic that means I should assume you think you're better than me for eating meat, right?