Ageism

leavinglasvegas

It's not "Age-ism",,, and anti-buttmonkey-ism. :bigsmile:

lmao.... I believe I'm stealing this term :bigsmile:

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Phoenix_Rising

Hey, if I was in Tim Horton's trying to have a nice chat with my friend and to enjoy my coffee, and a troop of knuckleheads at the next table was bouncing change off the formica and making more noise than a jet taking off - I might politely ask them to knock it off too. I wouldn't do it 'cause they were young, I'd do it 'cause their behavior was rude. Their age really has nothing to do with it.

"Boys" was a poor choice of words, but she was asking people to knock off the boorish, asinine behavior. It's not "Age-ism",,, and anti-buttmonkey-ism. :bigsmile:

Why was it a poor choice of words-- if they were male teenagers, they were "boys" by definition, yes?

If a group of senior citizens was rude enough to play quarters, to continue the example, in a restaurant while I'm sipping my coffee, I'd ask them (or have the restaurant management) ask them to stop.

Yeah, but would you say "Geezers - it is time to put away the quarters and act like decent 40 year olds"? How about "Geriatric friends - I know you're all excited about Eisenhower, but let's act our age".... Heck no you wouldn't, that would be rude.

"Boys" has a connotation that is mildly insulting. A synonym might be "immature males",,, I would start off with "Gentlemen,,,". But hey, I'm Mr. Nice.

Just my humble opinion.....

An older woman taking a tone and calling them "boys" throws out an air of authority, making them snap into line quickly, much as they would with their mother or school teacher speaking to them in the same manner.

An older woman calling them "gentlemen" or whatnot gives an air of respect from her, in a way giving them power in the situation, and they may take that sense of power and disrespectfully keep bouncing quarters.

I can also say that even though I'm still a young 28, the kids I'm seeing high school are already looking awful young to me. Given another 20 years or more on me, and I'm positive I will refer to all 'young men' as 'boys' too, not simply being disrespectful, but acknowledging that in my mind, they look awful young.

If I were in the situation, I'd probably have used a generic, "Hey guys", indicating neither respect nor disrespect, but more of a feeling of comraderie.

CasperO

Yes, "Hey guys" would be much better. I can go with "Gentlemen" because I'm an older male, possibly bigger and probably more physically imposing than any of them. I can spare a little unearned respect, I have 16 inch biceps and an honorable discharge, and few youngsters will challenge me.

There is an interplay between women, a subtlety to their conversation that men don't really "get" - and there's some stuff going on with men in a similar way. Most of it is just pecker-measuring, but I know that most women can't read those signs for squat. Brothers?

Marla64

No, because "geezers" is a pejorative term. Boys is an identifier. It's not like she said, "Hey, hooligans-- derelicts-- "

Boys? A dumbed down social category? Oh my--

That does not compute.

8 year old males are "boys", and they would not object to the term. 12-14 year olds are boys,,, sorta, though they'd sure like to be held in higher esteem than that. Calling me "boy" when I was 17 might have left you with a dental appointment.

Yes, but I'll bet it was on the door of the lavatory you used in high school-- yes?

People get bent out of shape over such ridiculous things-- now I'd have to worry about calling a boy a boy?

Our world has gone mad.

CasperO

Sure was. It was insulting, and we hated it.

Phoenix_Rising

Yes, "Hey guys" would be much better. I can go with "Gentlemen" because I'm an older male, possibly bigger and probably more physically imposing than any of them. I can spare a little unearned respect, I have 16 inch biceps and an honorable discharge, and few youngsters will challenge me.

There is an interplay between women, a subtlety to their conversation that men don't really "get" - and there's some stuff going on with men in a similar way. Most of it is just pecker-measuring, but I know that most women can't read those signs for squat. Brothers?

I think the sex of the person delivering the statement to the 17 year old males makes all the difference.

I think an older, buff or even an older, larger but still physically intimidating male saying "gentlemen" comes across much different than it would delivered by a female.

Also, I see that as a very high school principal thing to say. :laugh: I mean that in a good way. An older, physically intimidating male calling them "gentlemen" seems (to me) to demand their respect, while acknowledging you will pro-offer your respect, but that you will put up with none of their shenanigans!!

foxyforce

No, because "geezers" is a pejorative term. Boys is an identifier. It's not like she said, "Hey, hooligans-- derelicts-- "

Boys? A dumbed down social category? Oh my--

That does not compute.

8 year old males are "boys", and they would not object to the term. 12-14 year olds are boys,,, sorta, though they'd sure like to be held in higher esteem than that. Calling me "boy" when I was 17 might have left you with a dental appointment.

Yes, but I'll bet it was on the door of the lavatory you used in high school-- yes?

People get bent out of shape over such ridiculous things-- now I'd have to worry about calling a boy a boy?

Our world has gone mad.

out world IS mad

Phoenix_Rising

Sure was. It was insulting, and we hated it.

I will say that when my male boss (40-something) referred to me and my female coworkers (ages 20-something to 50-ish) as "the girls", it was taken in a very negative light.

However, if I were 17...... I might be ticked about it, but I'm probably still easily classified as a "girl" at that point.

foxyforce

Just my humble opinion.....

An older woman taking a tone and calling them "boys" throws out an air of authority, making them snap into line quickly, much as they would with their mother or school teacher speaking to them in the same manner.

An older woman calling them "gentlemen" or whatnot gives an air of respect from her, in a way giving them power in the situation, and they may take that sense of power and disrespectfully keep bouncing quarters.

I can also say that even though I'm still a young 28, the kids I'm seeing high school are already looking awful young to me. Given another 20 years or more on me, and I'm positive I will refer to all 'young men' as 'boys' too, not simply being disrespectful, but acknowledging that in my mind, they look awful young.

If I were in the situation, I'd probably have used a generic, "Hey guys", indicating neither respect nor disrespect, but more of a feeling of comraderie.

just the idea of authority plays a huge role in ageism

but i like your idea of comradery given that this women would have asked "adults" to stop playing quarters, because i bet my money that she would no where even dare to ask me. they were just as loud as the other customers. everything was equal. except the social environment of which they were at the bottom of the food chain and thus can be told what to do. which is wrong in every possible way.

PJilly

Just to play devil's advocate here, isn't your assumption that she wouldn't have asked you to stop playing quarters an ageist one?

foxyforce

Sure was. It was insulting, and we hated it.

I will say that when my male boss (40-something) referred to me and my female coworkers (ages 20-something to 50-ish) as "the girls", it was taken in a very negative light.

However, if I were 17...... I might be ticked about it, but I'm probably still easily classified as a "girl" at that point.

i would be pissed that he refered to my gender period. if he said "the women" i think i'd have to quit!! but that is just me. i know sexism occurs and it isn't always so easy to do anything about it.

however, people should be able to do something about it, and this goes for youth. are you guys familiar with the kid who is refusing to pledge allegience to flag because of gay rights? are many more people not taking him seriously because of his age than the people who actually understand what he is trying to say? yes. (i worded that awkwardly). his 'authority' figures have been telling him what to do at school when what they say makes no sense. his word is not validated because he is young. it is messed up.

leavinglasvegas

Just to play devil's advocate here, isn't your assumption that she wouldn't have asked you to stop playing quarters an ageist one?

I agree. I don't care who they are or how old they are. I would have asked too. Its not appropriate behaviour in a restaurant. And I probably would have said boys. I don't see what the big deal is. I'm called girl. And I'm 30. Really never assumed it was disrespectful. When I go out with my girls, we call it girls night.

foxyforce

Just to play devil's advocate here, isn't your assumption that she wouldn't have asked you to stop playing quarters an ageist one?

i am assuming that she is ageist. i'm not. however, i also wouldn't stop. when i was younger i may have, because youth are taught that what they know is wrong and that they need to listen to their elders.

although, right here i will contradict myself in saying: we are all ageists, sexists, racists, at some point. we are conditioned to think this way, it is being aware of what is going on that helps you to realize how messed up everything is.

MercuryBlue

I think it comes from a matter or perspective.

I'm 'old for my age', compared to the people I graduated with ten years ago. Kids, mortgage, etc. I use 'kid' to refer to people younger than me, and don't mean it in a disrespectful way. Like, 'He's a good kid'. Lately, I've caught myself referring to people that way, only to find out they're older than I am.

Woops.

My father tends to refer to my husband and I (to other people) as 'these kids'.... and my husband's almost thirty. Makes him cringe every time. But even when we get to be in our fifties, we're still going to be 'kids' to him.....

People tend to get offended easily, I think. I like to look at a situation and say, "Was any there any harm meant in that?" If I can honestly answer no, I just let it go.


I can see your frustration about being 'written off' due to your age, though. It still happens to me. People think 'Oh, she can't know what she's talking about because of her age'. But I'm educated, and have experienced a lot, though I may still be in my twenties. So yes, annoys me to be written off so easily. Though, on the other side of the coin, I've had younger people lecture me about one thing or another. The problem is, they're basing their opinion on their limited life experience. I know that when they're older and have more experiences, they'll better know what they're talking about. So depending on the circumstance, I may or may not respect their opinon (depends on the subject matter.)

leavinglasvegas

i would be pissed that he refered to my gender period. if he said "the women" i think i'd have to quit!! but that is just me. i know sexism occurs and it isn't always so easy to do anything about it.

however, people should be able to do something about it, and this goes for youth. are you guys familiar with the kid who is refusing to pledge allegience to flag because of gay rights? are many more people not taking him seriously because of his age than the people who actually understand what he is trying to say? yes. (i worded that awkwardly). his 'authority' figures have been telling him what to do at school when what they say makes no sense. his word is not validated because he is young. it is messed up.

The reason people are not paying attention to that boy is because they don't want to admit that they are wrong. Its about gays rights. That is a risky topic for anyone. I have a friend. 42 years old, male. Nobody listens to his stand for gay rights either. Not about age, its about the topic.

foxyforce

Just to play devil's advocate here, isn't your assumption that she wouldn't have asked you to stop playing quarters an ageist one?

I agree. I don't care who they are or how old they are. I would have asked too. Its not appropriate behaviour in a restaurant.

what is inappropriate exactly? is it that they are playing a game? is it that they are young and playing this game? is it that games are associated with young people? i don't know if you saw my post in the middle somewhere that stated they were quiet as mice, although this isn't necessarily the concern.

ageism does exist, this is one of many abounding examples. people do think that youth are beneath them, when most people don't even realize that youth is in itself a social construction and only started when the government wanted child labour laws because not enough kids were going to school to benefit the economy. thus, kids were forced to go to school until they were 16. prior to this, they were your social equivalent.

it is all constructed. young people should never be questioned, should never have an authority discrediting what they have to say. statements such as "this is immature" connotes that being mature looks like something different, potentially something more adult?

foxyforce

i would be pissed that he refered to my gender period. if he said "the women" i think i'd have to quit!! but that is just me. i know sexism occurs and it isn't always so easy to do anything about it.

however, people should be able to do something about it, and this goes for youth. are you guys familiar with the kid who is refusing to pledge allegience to flag because of gay rights? are many more people not taking him seriously because of his age than the people who actually understand what he is trying to say? yes. (i worded that awkwardly). his 'authority' figures have been telling him what to do at school when what they say makes no sense. his word is not validated because he is young. it is messed up.

The reason people are not paying attention to that boy is because they don't want to admit that they are wrong. Its about gays rights. That is a risky topic for anyone. I have a friend. 42 years old, male. Nobody listens to his stand for gay rights either. Not about age, its about the topic.

it totally is about age in that specific example. no one would tell your 42 year old friend to stand up and do what he is told! and if they did, it would be very seldom! it is easy to tell a kid they are wrong.

foxyforce

Though, on the other side of the coin, I've had younger people lecture me about one thing or another. The problem is, they're basing their opinion on their limited life experience. I know that when they're older and have more experiences, they'll better know what they're talking about.

this is what i mean. and we do all do it so unintentionally. it will always be a rat race for more experience if we look at it like that. will they know better what they're talking abotu when they are older, or will they just be jaded and confused by more information? and if people will always know better what they are talking about, why listen to anyone at all? you get my point, i just wanted to add to yours

Phoenix_Rising

Just to play devil's advocate here, isn't your assumption that she wouldn't have asked you to stop playing quarters an ageist one?

I agree. I don't care who they are or how old they are. I would have asked too. Its not appropriate behaviour in a restaurant.

what is inappropriate exactly? is it that they are playing a game? is it that they are young and playing this game? is it that games are associated with young people? i don't know if you saw my post in the middle somewhere that stated they were quiet as mice, although this isn't necessarily the concern.

It's innappropriate because of the social situation they have placed themselves into.
They are in a public venue, where people are expected to keep reasonable tones and volumes to their actions. By playing quarters, they were being loud, infringing upon the enjoyment of the other patrons of the coffeehouse.
This has nothing to do with their age. Were it a group of loud, rowdy 30-some year old men, or a group of cackling 50-some year old women, talking and laughing obnoxiously loud, something should be said to them.

I don't think it has to do with their age so much as their location.

Phoenix_Rising

Just to play devil's advocate here, isn't your assumption that she wouldn't have asked you to stop playing quarters an ageist one?

I agree. I don't care who they are or how old they are. I would have asked too. Its not appropriate behaviour in a restaurant.

what is inappropriate exactly? is it that they are playing a game? is it that they are young and playing this game? is it that games are associated with young people? i don't know if you saw my post in the middle somewhere that stated they were quiet as mice, although this isn't necessarily the concern.

It's innappropriate because of the social situation they have placed themselves into.
They are in a public venue, where people are expected to keep reasonable tones and volumes to their actions. By playing quarters, they were being loud, infringing upon the enjoyment of the other patrons of the coffeehouse.
This has nothing to do with their age. Were it a group of loud, rowdy 30-some year old men, or a group of cackling 50-some year old women, talking and laughing obnoxiously loud, something should be said to them.

I don't think it has to do with their age so much as their location.

I think I'm confused now.
Are you calling ageism because an older woman called younger males "boys"?
Are you saying because an older person asked a younger group of people to stop a loud, obnoxious noise in a public venue, that is ageism?

Is this just an example given, or was this the basis for your original post?